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[nba] franken-warriors rise as curse of the brook settles over lakers

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Darklyre wrote: »
    I hope that OKC promptly trades CP3 for yet more picks, and then does something silly like "For our first round, we select Duke. As in Duke University. Just put all the starters on a plane, we'll take it from there."

    They are absolutely loaded with draft picks. If they play their cards right they should be able to rebuild. They did manage to draft westbrook, kd, and harden.

    Ticaldfjam
  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    I will say, mad props to the OKC management team for pulling off these deals. I have no idea how they managed to do it with little obvious leverage on the situation.

    I still think the team should have stayed in Seattle, though.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    I will say, mad props to the OKC management team for pulling off these deals. I have no idea how they managed to do it with little obvious leverage on the situation.

    I still think the team should have stayed in Seattle, though.

    They had incredible leverage on the PG trade.

  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    That trade is just dumb for Houston.
    I mean, given harden supposedly
    said it was Paul or him there wasn’t much they can do, but no way does Westbrook make that team better.

    They might legitimately be numbers 1 and 2 in usage rates in the entire NBA.

    Jebus314 on
    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    harden and westbrook both need the ball in their hands to be effective, its really not gonna work
    also who's gonna play defense here?

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    Ticaldfjam
  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    I look forward to Westbrook never being allowed to touch the ball on the final possession of a game because he will shoot it.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited July 2019
    On the one hand, CP3 put the Rockets in a bind by clearly requesting a trade (but totally not guys I promise).

    On the other, the Rockets put themselves in a bind by signing CP3 to such a dumb contract.

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    Trajan45
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    I thought Harden/Paul would be a disaster and it worked out ok (a lot of it working was that one of them was injured at least 40% of the time...)

    Westbrook is basically indestructible...honestly both he and Harden have proven they can each win by being ~one-man teams, so they could just rotate take turns doing that, I guess?

  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    Anyone been watching Summer League? I started watching the Celtics to see how Carson Edwards was doing and he's been shooting lights and kicking ass himself but overall they have a really good crop of players.

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  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    On the one hand, CP3 put the Rockets in a bind by clearly requesting a trade (but totally not guys I promise).

    On the other, the Rockets put themselves in a bind by signing CP3 to such a dumb contract.

    Also you never know when CP3 will break down. The GM is on record as saying Harden having to save their season due to all the injuries at the start, really hurt them in the playoffs.

    Of course what will happen is that the Thunder will end up in some 3 way trade to get CP3 to the Lakers mid season.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    Westbrook's talent doesn't have as much value now that he doesn't have the energy level of an alien. He should be an upgrade over Paul most days but on days he shoots Houston out of a game on his own it's going to look real bad.

    Healthy Paul (very rare anymore) could make shots while keeping others involved. That's not something anyone left in Houston can do and they'll miss it.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Incindium wrote: »
    Anyone been watching Summer League? I started watching the Celtics to see how Carson Edwards was doing and he's been shooting lights and kicking ass himself but overall they have a really good crop of players.

    summer league has such little carry over to nba performance that it's generally only worth watching for the storylines.

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  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    Trajan45 wrote: »
    On the one hand, CP3 put the Rockets in a bind by clearly requesting a trade (but totally not guys I promise).

    On the other, the Rockets put themselves in a bind by signing CP3 to such a dumb contract.

    Also you never know when CP3 will break down. The GM is on record as saying Harden having to save their season due to all the injuries at the start, really hurt them in the playoffs.

    Of course what will happen is that the Thunder will end up in some 3 way trade to get CP3 to the Lakers mid season.

    I'm not even sure how you could make a trade like that work. The Lakers don't have much in the way of assets to deal at this point as far as I know, and I can't see how they would have the cap space to fit CP3. Unless the Thunder (or a trade partner) buy out his contract and he signs for the minimum to play with LeBron and AD? I'm not even sure how much buying out that contract would take, and the Thunder surely wouldn't do that right?

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    I'm not sure how Houston will do in the playoffs next year but with Westbrook and harden they should win a lot of games in the regular season.

  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    It’s a good thing nobody here cares about the NBA. Because the blazers are turrible. Who knew defense was actually important?

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    It’s a good thing nobody here cares about the NBA. Because the blazers are turrible. Who knew defense was actually important?

    Bruh you wound me. Also they had 8 dudes that could play tonight. The injury gods are cruel.

  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Yeah. Of the best 9 man rotation we could have we are missing 2-6 right now. Tough to really make a go with that.

    Super not excited about the Bazemore for Ariza trade either. I mean I guess it makes sense. 12.3 million is a lot of savings for a season that is going nowhere. But I don’t see this going anywhere good.

    On the bright side a bunch of the west also looks terrible.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • A Kobold's KoboldA Kobold's Kobold He/Him MississippiRegistered User regular
    edited January 2020
    So. Zion Williamson made his debut last night against the Spurs. He was time limited per quarter and was looking kinda rough… until the fourth when he had 17 straight points including going four for four from three before being benched.



    Discuss?

    edit: and the Pels still lost, natch

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Gentry’s advice to Zion before the game was “dunk on everything”

  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    I feel the same way about Zion that I have about Anthony Davis all these years. The hype does not match the product. And I will feel that way until proven otherwise.

    How many times have we heard that such and such player was going to "change the game," was going to be instant HOF level, was going to be unstoppable. And how many times has that actually been true? I'd say Lebron and Giannis. Maybe Curry, although I think he has benefited from good surrounding players, and it took like 5-6 years for him to really start dominating. Maybe Harden, but he's had some good supporting players as well, and hasn't produced in the playoffs.

    Will Zion be good? Almost certainly. Probably an all-star by year 2 or 3. But there are lots of guys in the league that have been that good. I'm glad pelicans have a nice player, and the NBA is always more fun to watch with these amazing talents, but I'm going to cringe at every Lebron/Jordan/Hakeem comparison for the foreseeable future.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    I think these kind of comparisons and assumptions about a player changing the game are inevitable, but even more so don't take environment into account.

    What if Anthony Davis had been drafted by the Spurs instead of the Pelicans? We'd have had another few years of the Spurs dynasty and another Two Towers.
    What if Tim Duncan had been drafted by any other team back then, and not the Spurs? Would he be that HOF player he is today?

    Same with Williamson. He might have the talent to change the game, but stick him on a mediocre team and an even more mediocre organisation (just like Anthony Davis right before him) and he might not actually put all that talent on the floor and achieve those lofty goals the media sets for him. Stick him on a proven winning franchise and the picture is completely different right from the get go.

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Steph changed basketball

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The biggest thing about the NBA is that it's a team sport. It's pretty much impossible for one player to single-handedly carry their team to a championship, no matter how good they are. Even the greatest to ever play the game had great (in some case Hall-of-Fame) players with them on their teams.

    So you can have a generational talent who doesn't produce championship results because they simply don't have the support to do so, whether that's from their teammates or the coaching staff or whatever else.

  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know TexasRegistered User regular
    The biggest thing about the NBA is that it's a team sport. It's pretty much impossible for one player to single-handedly carry their team to a championship, no matter how good they are. Even the greatest to ever play the game had great (in some case Hall-of-Fame) players with them on their teams.

    So you can have a generational talent who doesn't produce championship results because they simply don't have the support to do so, whether that's from their teammates or the coaching staff or whatever else.

    I mean shit, this was literally Lebron's legacy for a decade.

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  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Steph changed basketball

    Counter point: he did not.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    The biggest thing about the NBA is that it's a team sport. It's pretty much impossible for one player to single-handedly carry their team to a championship, no matter how good they are. Even the greatest to ever play the game had great (in some case Hall-of-Fame) players with them on their teams.

    So you can have a generational talent who doesn't produce championship results because they simply don't have the support to do so, whether that's from their teammates or the coaching staff or whatever else.

    I mean shit, this was literally Lebron's legacy for a decade.

    I never said it was championship or bust. But GOAT level players (like Lebron), can take shit teams deep into the playoffs. Borderline HOF players, or even comfortable HOF players, need some talent around them to do that. Hence Anthony Davis being on a perennial 8th seed or so. Anthony Davis is an amazing player, he just didn't deserve the hype form his first few years.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    Steph changed basketball

    Counter point: he did not.

    sorta did. moreyball and all the other basketball analytics probably would have gotten there eventually but it sure was helped by a guy who shot insane 3s and couldn't be stopped.

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  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Steph has had more impact on the game of basketball than any other single player in his generation, including LeBron. To claim that he didn't even change the sport is about as close to being objectively wrong as you can get in the realm of hot takes.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Steph is the Maynard Ferguson of long three point shooters

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know TexasRegistered User regular
    It will never not be the most anime thing that Steph was doing everything he was doing WITH eye problems. Like, FUCK man! You really gonna be out here flexing on everyone like Kenpachi with his eyepatch on?

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  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Steph is the Maynard Ferguson of long three point shooters

    How dare you sir.

    But for reals I agree with you guys that Steph is a generational talent. But to say he created the era of the three ball is just false. Ray allen was shooting 7-8 threes per game in the early 2000's. 3-D wings has been a thing for over a decade. Only 11 teams averaged more than 20 3PA/game in the 90's, by 2010-11 12 teams averaged more than 20 in that season alone, and Curry was only a sophmore averaging 4 3's a game! The NBA has been aware of the value of the 3 ball for a while, and growth of that offensive style was happening before Curry.

    Honestly I can't really think of anyone who "changed the game." There have been players who were different levels of unguardable, but none that created a style of ball that could make someone else unguardable. It's not like there are suddenly a rash of NBA players who can shoot like Steph.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    Nobody is saying he invented the idea of 3 point shooters, or 3 & D players, or has to be 'unguardable' to be influential on the sport.

    The way he's been influential is in taking the 3 point shot to such an absolute extreme that it started to warp the game around him. Even Ray Allen and Reggie Miller don't touch the efficiency and volume of his 3s. Shit, even the distance at which he jacks up shots is massively influential, and the amount of 28 to 40 footers taken across the league *tripled* in like five years after 2014-15. That kind of jump doesn't just happen merely because of existing trends. He's absolutely hypercharged a bunch of trends in the league to a degree that impacted far more than just wing shooting.

    He's warped the way teams are built, and that influence has gone a long way toward contributing to another one of the features of the modern game, the decline of the traditional big man. He's changed how defense is played, with the league having to embrace it to deal with how far out teams are starting to play, and GS itself utilizing it so well.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Steph’s impact:
    1. Distance
    2. Off the dribble

    Call it correlation or causation, since Steph emerged as an MVP, defenses have to guard 25% more floor and that is warped

    qwer12TelMarine
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    I love the deep or dunk phase of basketball btw

    And i love that one of its architects, Pop, is like “fuck look at all this mid-range space we have now” and trying to bring back the 62% 16 foot shot

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  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Nobody is saying he invented the idea of 3 point shooters, or 3 & D players, or has to be 'unguardable' to be influential on the sport.

    The way he's been influential is in taking the 3 point shot to such an absolute extreme that it started to warp the game around him. Even Ray Allen and Reggie Miller don't touch the efficiency and volume of his 3s. Shit, even the distance at which he jacks up shots is massively influential, and the amount of 28 to 40 footers taken across the league *tripled* in like five years after 2014-15. That kind of jump doesn't just happen merely because of existing trends. He's absolutely hypercharged a bunch of trends in the league to a degree that impacted far more than just wing shooting.

    He's warped the way teams are built, and that influence has gone a long way toward contributing to another one of the features of the modern game, the decline of the traditional big man. He's changed how defense is played, with the league having to embrace it to deal with how far out teams are starting to play, and GS itself utilizing it so well.

    I dunno, I kind of disagree with that assessment. Besides lillard, and maybe harden, does anyone else really shoot the deep ball on a regular basis? Tripling attempts doesn't mean anything if it went from like 5 attempts in all of the NBA, for a whole season, to 15, mostly because there were 2 players instead of 1 shooting that style. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'd be curious what different 3 point statistical trends look like before and after his MVP season. I'd bet they aren't that different.

    The sky hook didn't change the game either, because it turns out the sky hook is fucking hard to do , and everyone who came after Erving couldn't make that play as effective as he could. I think the same applys to Curry's style of shooting. His quick release, off the dribble, deep shot accuracy is not something that younger players will be able to adapt into their game easily.

    But to me the ultimate test of GOAT level talent is how much they can do on their own. Lebron took borderline lottery teams to the finals. Different era, but guys like wilt, russell, and Erving where basically the center of everything those teams did offensively/defensively, produced unreal numbers, and had dynasties.

    Curry has always had Klay putting up all-star numbers, and a decent rotation of versatile defenders taking the pressure off him defensively (green, iguodala, barnes). Plus Kevin freaking Durant.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Steph is probably not the sole cause of this transformation, but if he was NOT successful with bis style we dont get to where we are now

    qwer12
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    It's pretty well-documented that ever since Steph arrived and made his name, kids and up-and-coming players have taken more and more 3's. His impact on the game will likely not be fully felt until a few years from now, when all the teenagers and kids growing up are starting to make it into the NBA.

    Was he the sole cause of the revolution? Of course not, that's ridiculous. No one creates change in a vacuum. But it's not a stretch at all to say that he's been the face of a complete paradigm shift in the way the NBA is played today, and is heads-and-shoulders above any other player who might claim a role in it.

    Before Steph, shorter players thought they were at a constant disadvantage against taller players in terms of offensive value. While that hasn't turned on its head per se, the difference is palpable. Because taller players now have to prove they have an outside game in order to have value. Nowadays you are not considered a net positive on the floor if you do not have a 3-point shot, as the divisive opinions about Ben Simmons are proving.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Maybe people would have realized the effect of being unguarded vs the effect of distance such that you could be good enough to hit those shots. That you could win by shooting and boarding if no one decided to come out and stop you.

    But they might not have if someone didnt provide them the data to make it real clear. And curry made it real clear

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  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Steph is the Maynard Ferguson of long three point shooters

    I'll allow this, only if Curry can bust out a double high-C in the ornamentation section of Chameleon.

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