bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He’s right, but do the white working classes agree? They have minds of their own, and just because socialism is logically best for them doesn’t mean they support it.
A lot of them seem determined to die in a slightly better ditch than their brown neighbor. Nazism wasn’t the best choice for the German working class either - it predictably destroyed their country - but they chose it anyway.
This is weird because it seems like youre saying people will condescend to the WWC but youre doing it here.
Im not interested in pandering to people who would happily have me shot for being a liberal feminist. They have minds of their own and the dignity of choice, and they are choosing hate over the prosperity of their families and nation. I do not respect that.
I know it’s not “PC” to say so but I’m terrified of these guys.
I'm nervous about anyone who seems fixated on pulling in the labor vote--white labor, because it's not like black labor is voting Republican--whether it's by going to the center or far-left populism and being quiet about the social justice parts.
Welfare/socialism but only for straight white Christians wouldn't be even the slightest bit out of character for America.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He has on a number of times explicitly said we should de emphasize issues of race and social justice to appeal to working class whites. Putting aside whether its correct ethically or morally, its stupid politically and is rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of US politics informed by early 20th century socialism like that of Eugene Debs, who he based much of his foundational philosophy on. Its why he equated Nixon and Kennedy and the Democratic and Republican parties throughout the Civil Rights era into the late 90s. He's lived in one of the whitest and most leftist states in the country for 40 years and thinks its representative of the population in general. Its why he thought Jesse Jackson running showed it no longer mattered if you were white or black in the US politically. Its a blindspot.
The groups he wants to target are fundamentally the base of the GOP. They are the most conservative. He thinks because they are often poor and rural, they will vote D for a higher minimum wage. That hasn't been the case since the Civil Rights era explicitly because of the Civil Rights era. White supremacy, racial tribalism, misogyny and "identity politics" has driven that vote since the founding of the republic.
Do you have quotes?
literally on this page
Yeah dont see them. Particularly interested in this remarks on deemphasizing racial issues.
I'm nervous about anyone who seems fixated on pulling in the labor vote--white labor, because it's not like black labor is voting Republican--whether it's by going to the center or far-left populism and being quiet about the social justice parts.
Welfare/socialism but only for straight white Christians wouldn't be even the slightest bit out of character for America.
To be clear, I don't think many people on the left are going to be actively bigoted in the legislature they support.
But I worry that if the left and left-liberals de-emphasize social issues, then compromise bills will end up with carveouts that screw minorities to get passed because there's no foundation to talk about how fucked up and bigoted X carveout really is.
This is the challenge of the opposition to the “maintaining the power of the already powerful” party, as it by default will always be the “coalition of everyone else” party
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He’s right, but do the white working classes agree? They have minds of their own, and just because socialism is logically best for them doesn’t mean they support it.
A lot of them seem determined to die in a slightly better ditch than their brown neighbor. Nazism wasn’t the best choice for the German working class either - it predictably destroyed their country - but they chose it anyway.
This is weird because it seems like youre saying people will condescend to the WWC but youre doing it here.
Im not interested in pandering to people who would happily have me shot for being a liberal feminist. They have minds of their own and the dignity of choice, and they are choosing hate over the prosperity of their families and nation. I do not respect that.
I know it’s not “PC” to say so but I’m terrified of these guys.
Its fascinating that you've gone from warning people about being condescending towards wwc to this so quickly.
Are we to believe that every wwc voter wants to murder liberal feminists?
To be clear, I don't think many people on the left are going to be actively bigoted in the legislature they support.
But I worry that if the left and left-liberals de-emphasize social issues, then compromise bills will end up with carveouts that screw minorities to get passed because there's no foundation to talk about how fucked up and bigoted X carveout really is.
The monochrome left is largely a thing of days gone by
I'm curious why does this(the leftists will sell out poc) continue to come up? People claim it like it's truth but never really delve into it.
I think a lot of it is just cynical nonsense, but in the US after organized socialism was violently crushed it became the realm of academia for a long time and that was obviosuly mostly white.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He’s right, but do the white working classes agree? They have minds of their own, and just because socialism is logically best for them doesn’t mean they support it.
A lot of them seem determined to die in a slightly better ditch than their brown neighbor. Nazism wasn’t the best choice for the German working class either - it predictably destroyed their country - but they chose it anyway.
This is weird because it seems like youre saying people will condescend to the WWC but youre doing it here.
Im not interested in pandering to people who would happily have me shot for being a liberal feminist. They have minds of their own and the dignity of choice, and they are choosing hate over the prosperity of their families and nation. I do not respect that.
I know it’s not “PC” to say so but I’m terrified of these guys.
Its fascinating that you've gone from warning people about being condescending towards wwc to this so quickly.
Are we to believe that every wwc voter wants to murder liberal feminists?
I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I’m very “condescending” to WWC Republicans because Republicans fucking terrify me. They seem about 5 minutes away from Krystallnacht.
The only way I’m *not* condescending to them is that I think it’s their own free choice. They aren’t poor little naifs led astray by the wicked Koch brothers.
Lumping the entire wwc in with murderous fascists is unconstructive and fatalistic.
Well, that's not what I mean. I know plenty of white working class men who are socialists or completely lovely.
But when the media says "the Democrats need to appeal to the white working classes" they don't mean these people. They mean white working class conservative men, who as a class seem to have less than zero interest in economics or prosperity. The WWC men who do care about these things are Democrats or independent. They have self-sorted for people who care more about their race than their economic well-being.
Based on my current feelings towards the American voting base, I'd lean towards that.
On the one hand, Sander's mass political movement is laughable.
On the other, that's what it would take for things I want to see happen actually happen.
Sometimes I can't help but feel deflated when thinking about politics. So many voters are dumb, gullible, apathetic, or downright malicious. That's the root of the problem in American politics. It needs to be fixed and I don't know how. I'm not even sure it can be
A more realistic outcome is winning some elections, both local, state and federal and expanding voting rights as an explicit priority, along with various other reforms and such that can be achieved. The mass political movement that you will actually see in the US is letting everyone vote, which benefits the Democrats.
It is best to remember that, despite all the structural inequalities at work, the Republican party depends hugely on voter suppression to hold power.
I'm nervous about anyone who seems fixated on pulling in the labor vote--white labor, because it's not like black labor is voting Republican--whether it's by going to the center or far-left populism and being quiet about the social justice parts.
Welfare/socialism but only for straight white Christians wouldn't be even the slightest bit out of character for America.
It's literally what Trump promised. Trump ran on white populism.
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them. Instead this whole thing about courting Republican voters feels like it's just another manifestation of the post-Reagan trauma the Democratic Party has not healed from as an institution, and all it does is fuel petty bullshit for cheap scores in internet debates as one side accuses the other of wanting to sideline social justice to court racists or some nonsense.
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them.
They aren't all working class.
I think a lot of working-class non-voters are afflicted by "voter suppression" in that Republicans make it tedious, difficult, or anxiety-provoking for them to vote.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He has on a number of times explicitly said we should de emphasize issues of race and social justice to appeal to working class whites. Putting aside whether its correct ethically or morally, its stupid politically and is rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of US politics informed by early 20th century socialism like that of Eugene Debs, who he based much of his foundational philosophy on. Its why he equated Nixon and Kennedy and the Democratic and Republican parties throughout the Civil Rights era into the late 90s. He's lived in one of the whitest and most leftist states in the country for 40 years and thinks its representative of the population in general. Its why he thought Jesse Jackson running showed it no longer mattered if you were white or black in the US politically. Its a blindspot.
The groups he wants to target are fundamentally the base of the GOP. They are the most conservative. He thinks because they are often poor and rural, they will vote D for a higher minimum wage. That hasn't been the case since the Civil Rights era explicitly because of the Civil Rights era. White supremacy, racial tribalism, misogyny and "identity politics" has driven that vote since the founding of the republic.
Do you have quotes?
literally on this page
The GOP's base will merrily vote for their own suffering and death as long as a non white, non Evangelical Christians die just-a-little-deader. And they have done so for decades.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He has on a number of times explicitly said we should de emphasize issues of race and social justice to appeal to working class whites. Putting aside whether its correct ethically or morally, its stupid politically and is rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of US politics informed by early 20th century socialism like that of Eugene Debs, who he based much of his foundational philosophy on. Its why he equated Nixon and Kennedy and the Democratic and Republican parties throughout the Civil Rights era into the late 90s. He's lived in one of the whitest and most leftist states in the country for 40 years and thinks its representative of the population in general. Its why he thought Jesse Jackson running showed it no longer mattered if you were white or black in the US politically. Its a blindspot.
The groups he wants to target are fundamentally the base of the GOP. They are the most conservative. He thinks because they are often poor and rural, they will vote D for a higher minimum wage. That hasn't been the case since the Civil Rights era explicitly because of the Civil Rights era. White supremacy, racial tribalism, misogyny and "identity politics" has driven that vote since the founding of the republic.
Do you have quotes?
literally on this page
The GOP's base will merrily vote for their own suffering and death as long as a non white, non Evangelical Christians die just-a-little-deader. And they have done so for decades.
Since they were taught to think of black people as undeserving of actual human rights in order to keep them from voting to abolish slavery, the regulation Capital was most worried about from like the early 1600s over in this neck of the world
Trump doing something in a racist fashion does not mean anything. Neo liberal democrats also trucked in racist policy but somehow neoliberal policy is not considered whole cloth racist.
psn: PhasenWeeple
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
If the Democratic party put half as much effort into getting the Hispanic/Latinx vote as they do the WWC vote we might actually have a solid winning coalition
If the Democratic party put half as much effort into getting the Hispanic/Latinx vote as they do the WWC vote we might actually have a solid winning coalition
Without serious changes to platform theyve offered all they can I think
Only if you want one, lol. I guess if your goal is to revitalize a center-right coalition just as it crumbles to dust in the face of nightmare right-wing populism, Bernie's your guy. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Yes, if your preference is to just sand the edges off the world we have now then idk Beto 2020 or whatever
This sort of back and forth sniping is tedious, please stop.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
He does say himself that he wants it to function as a way from getting people to enroll in welfare programs.
UBI in general is a good idea. Its actually one of the things I criticize Sanders on, but Yang's implementation of it is just trash.
Well yeah. Like, his idea is that if you would get more benefits than $1000 a month, you would choose to go with benefits instead of getting the UBI. But if you would get less than $1000 a month from benefits, you'd just switch over to UBI and get more than you would have.
The biggest issue with that is his UBI plan gets funding from a VAT. That's something that everyone, including the poorest, would have to pay.
Especially the poorest, in fact. A VAT is by nature regressive, poor people pay more of it by share of income.
It doesn't end up being that simple though because VATs and the like are incredibly successful at raising money and are associated with higher social services. This is, afaik, believed to be because the way this has worked out in other countries is you use VATs or similar taxes to raise a lot of money that you then spend to improve overall outcomes, especially for the poor.
Oh I'm not necessarily opposed to a VAT as such. They do indeed raise a lot of money, and applied fairly they raise a lot more in total money from the richer classes. I don't like them but they're easier to pass than any other tax.
I just think it is bad way to fund an UBI. It straight up means the poorest get the least relative benefit from their basic income. Any VAT will be closer to a direct tax on that $1000 for them than anyone else. Using a VAT to fund it would be lessening the effectiveness of your whole proposal.
Fwiw I’m not conflating the racist shits with WWC. There are tens of millions of WWC folks who are sick of the GOPs shit but just haven’t been motivated enough to vote against them.
Fuck, half or more of WWC folks are women!
I’m trying to highlight the intersectionality of economics and race. I guess it’s hard to do without coming across as writing off a segment of voters.
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them. Instead this whole thing about courting Republican voters feels like it's just another manifestation of the post-Reagan trauma the Democratic Party has not healed from as an institution, and all it does is fuel petty bullshit for cheap scores in internet debates as one side accuses the other of wanting to sideline social justice to court racists or some nonsense.
Bernie has been doing exactly that when he went on Rogan's show. It seems like he's more open to appealing to the Alt-Right than the party's own conservative wing. Reagan is the party's excuse, what's Bernie's?
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them. Instead this whole thing about courting Republican voters feels like it's just another manifestation of the post-Reagan trauma the Democratic Party has not healed from as an institution, and all it does is fuel petty bullshit for cheap scores in internet debates as one side accuses the other of wanting to sideline social justice to court racists or some nonsense.
Bernie has been doing exactly that when he went on Rogan's show. It seems like he's more open to appealing to the Alt-Right than the party's own conservative wing. Reagan is the party's excuse, what's Bernie's?
Rogan was a topic all it's own that got closed. Sorry people disagree with your assessment.
If the Democratic party put half as much effort into getting the Hispanic/Latinx vote as they do the WWC vote we might actually have a solid winning coalition
Without serious changes to platform theyve offered all they can I think
Eeeh not really. The kind of economic arguments Sanders proposes will probably work much better on non whites. You aren't starting from the kind of deficit you see with the WWC and the bigoted ones are less likely to be single issue on that.
If the Democratic party put half as much effort into getting the Hispanic/Latinx vote as they do the WWC vote we might actually have a solid winning coalition
Without serious changes to platform theyve offered all they can I think
Eeeh not really. The kind of economic arguments Sanders proposes will probably work much better on non whites. You aren't starting from the kind of deficit you see with the WWC and the bigoted ones are less likely to be single issue on that.
People are projecting that Bernie is just appealing to white voters. He's regularly having public discussions with community leaders that are poc.
Some of you guys just don't wanna believe that black folk can be leftists or populists as well. It was some time ago that mlk started the poor people's campaign but it never went away.
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them. Instead this whole thing about courting Republican voters feels like it's just another manifestation of the post-Reagan trauma the Democratic Party has not healed from as an institution, and all it does is fuel petty bullshit for cheap scores in internet debates as one side accuses the other of wanting to sideline social justice to court racists or some nonsense.
Bernie has been doing exactly that when he went on Rogan's show. It seems like he's more open to appealing to the Alt-Right than the party's own conservative wing. Reagan is the party's excuse, what's Bernie's?
Rogan was a topic all it's own that got closed. Sorry people disagree with your assessment.
I'm still waiting for Bernie's excuse. It comes off like a double standard, it's ok for him to do it while not for the party because Reagan.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He’s right, but do the white working classes agree? They have minds of their own, and just because socialism is logically best for them doesn’t mean they support it.
A lot of them seem determined to die in a slightly better ditch than their brown neighbor. Nazism wasn’t the best choice for the German working class either - it predictably destroyed their country - but they chose it anyway.
This is weird because it seems like youre saying people will condescend to the WWC but youre doing it here.
The mistake is in believing that voters are invariably voting against their best interests when they vote for things that hurt them economically. Voting to restructure our economy in order to not destroy the environment could be construed as voting against our interests if you fail consider that we place value on things like "not crippling the planet" and "not fucking over our children".
In the context of, say, WWC Trump supporters, the mistake is in assuming that they're all so blinkered by racism that they blindly vote for things that make them poorer. That's probably true for some of them, but for a lot of them, it's not that the racism keeps them from voting to reflect their values. It's that the racism IS what they value.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I don't think Sanders is just appealing to white voters. But I do think part of his core idea of how he can win and enact his agenda is based in his ability to attract white working class voters with economic populism.
That's not all he's trying to do, as evidenced for example by his attempts to improve his numbers with black voters this time, but it's definitely a part of it imo.
There is literally a giant chunk of the country who has completely disengaged from politics and by and large I think when Sanders and others talks about trying to get back the working class maybe we should be thinking about them. Instead this whole thing about courting Republican voters feels like it's just another manifestation of the post-Reagan trauma the Democratic Party has not healed from as an institution, and all it does is fuel petty bullshit for cheap scores in internet debates as one side accuses the other of wanting to sideline social justice to court racists or some nonsense.
Bernie has been doing exactly that when he went on Rogan's show. It seems like he's more open to appealing to the Alt-Right than the party's own conservative wing. Reagan is the party's excuse, what's Bernie's?
Rogan was a topic all it's own that got closed. Sorry people disagree with your assessment.
I'm still waiting for Bernie's excuse. It comes off like a double standard, it's ok for him to do it while not for the party because Reagan.
bernie is completely right to say that the democrats should try to appeal to the white working class on economic issues, and the idea that this is somehow an intrinsically racist enterprise constitutes a much bigger purity test than anything socialists have ever done
He’s right, but do the white working classes agree? They have minds of their own, and just because socialism is logically best for them doesn’t mean they support it.
A lot of them seem determined to die in a slightly better ditch than their brown neighbor. Nazism wasn’t the best choice for the German working class either - it predictably destroyed their country - but they chose it anyway.
This is weird because it seems like youre saying people will condescend to the WWC but youre doing it here.
The mistake is in believing that voters are invariably voting against their best interests when they vote for things that hurt them economically. Voting to restructure our economy in order to not destroy the environment could be construed as voting against our interests if you fail consider that we place value on things like "not crippling the planet" and "not fucking over our children".
In the context of, say, WWC Trump supporters, the mistake is in assuming that they're all so blinkered by racism that they blindly vote for things that make them poorer. That's probably true for some of them, but for a lot of them, it's not that the racism keeps them from voting to reflect their values. It's that the racism IS what they value.
We should assume that rather then people voting against their best interests, people just rank their interests differently then we might first assume.
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Im not interested in pandering to people who would happily have me shot for being a liberal feminist. They have minds of their own and the dignity of choice, and they are choosing hate over the prosperity of their families and nation. I do not respect that.
I know it’s not “PC” to say so but I’m terrified of these guys.
Welfare/socialism but only for straight white Christians wouldn't be even the slightest bit out of character for America.
Yeah dont see them. Particularly interested in this remarks on deemphasizing racial issues.
Or pre-Kennedy Dems
But I worry that if the left and left-liberals de-emphasize social issues, then compromise bills will end up with carveouts that screw minorities to get passed because there's no foundation to talk about how fucked up and bigoted X carveout really is.
Its fascinating that you've gone from warning people about being condescending towards wwc to this so quickly.
Are we to believe that every wwc voter wants to murder liberal feminists?
The monochrome left is largely a thing of days gone by
I think a lot of it is just cynical nonsense, but in the US after organized socialism was violently crushed it became the realm of academia for a long time and that was obviosuly mostly white.
We're talking like decades ago though.
I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I’m very “condescending” to WWC Republicans because Republicans fucking terrify me. They seem about 5 minutes away from Krystallnacht.
The only way I’m *not* condescending to them is that I think it’s their own free choice. They aren’t poor little naifs led astray by the wicked Koch brothers.
Well, that's not what I mean. I know plenty of white working class men who are socialists or completely lovely.
But when the media says "the Democrats need to appeal to the white working classes" they don't mean these people. They mean white working class conservative men, who as a class seem to have less than zero interest in economics or prosperity. The WWC men who do care about these things are Democrats or independent. They have self-sorted for people who care more about their race than their economic well-being.
A more realistic outcome is winning some elections, both local, state and federal and expanding voting rights as an explicit priority, along with various other reforms and such that can be achieved. The mass political movement that you will actually see in the US is letting everyone vote, which benefits the Democrats.
It is best to remember that, despite all the structural inequalities at work, the Republican party depends hugely on voter suppression to hold power.
It's literally what Trump promised. Trump ran on white populism.
They aren't all working class.
I think a lot of working-class non-voters are afflicted by "voter suppression" in that Republicans make it tedious, difficult, or anxiety-provoking for them to vote.
The GOP's base will merrily vote for their own suffering and death as long as a non white, non Evangelical Christians die just-a-little-deader. And they have done so for decades.
Since they were taught to think of black people as undeserving of actual human rights in order to keep them from voting to abolish slavery, the regulation Capital was most worried about from like the early 1600s over in this neck of the world
Without serious changes to platform theyve offered all they can I think
This sort of back and forth sniping is tedious, please stop.
Oh I'm not necessarily opposed to a VAT as such. They do indeed raise a lot of money, and applied fairly they raise a lot more in total money from the richer classes. I don't like them but they're easier to pass than any other tax.
I just think it is bad way to fund an UBI. It straight up means the poorest get the least relative benefit from their basic income. Any VAT will be closer to a direct tax on that $1000 for them than anyone else. Using a VAT to fund it would be lessening the effectiveness of your whole proposal.
Fuck, half or more of WWC folks are women!
I’m trying to highlight the intersectionality of economics and race. I guess it’s hard to do without coming across as writing off a segment of voters.
Bernie has been doing exactly that when he went on Rogan's show. It seems like he's more open to appealing to the Alt-Right than the party's own conservative wing. Reagan is the party's excuse, what's Bernie's?
Rogan was a topic all it's own that got closed. Sorry people disagree with your assessment.
Eeeh not really. The kind of economic arguments Sanders proposes will probably work much better on non whites. You aren't starting from the kind of deficit you see with the WWC and the bigoted ones are less likely to be single issue on that.
Id put his platform under "serious changes"
Some of you guys just don't wanna believe that black folk can be leftists or populists as well. It was some time ago that mlk started the poor people's campaign but it never went away.
And that will make his economic outreach fail.
Huh?
I'm still waiting for Bernie's excuse. It comes off like a double standard, it's ok for him to do it while not for the party because Reagan.
The mistake is in believing that voters are invariably voting against their best interests when they vote for things that hurt them economically. Voting to restructure our economy in order to not destroy the environment could be construed as voting against our interests if you fail consider that we place value on things like "not crippling the planet" and "not fucking over our children".
In the context of, say, WWC Trump supporters, the mistake is in assuming that they're all so blinkered by racism that they blindly vote for things that make them poorer. That's probably true for some of them, but for a lot of them, it's not that the racism keeps them from voting to reflect their values. It's that the racism IS what they value.
That's not all he's trying to do, as evidenced for example by his attempts to improve his numbers with black voters this time, but it's definitely a part of it imo.
I dunno what that second bit is about.
We should assume that rather then people voting against their best interests, people just rank their interests differently then we might first assume.