Actual QP remains fun. Won a Kingsrow Defense with 4 DPS and 2 heals. Got comms and shoutouts for my mercy-ing. Got absolutely destroyed on Illios with a completely different group and characters but was still 4-2, but i was able to play Mei so still a good match.
Lego Bastion will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Question! The event says I gotta watch twitch to get some sprays. Do I do that inside the OW client or what? How does the game know I did it?
Yeah, I'm betting the dedicated Widow players that constantly bomb matches on their unachievable path to pro status have gotten sorted down in ranking a fair ways, seeing as they can't depend on extra DPS or tanks to prop up a mediocre performance anymore. Now a Widow player actually has to be reliably good to be a worthwhile pick, which takes a huge portion of Widow players out of the running.
I think Ashe has soaked up a lot of mediocre Widow players as well. She's a lot more forgiving, has no charge up to worry about, all of her abilities deal damage in some way, her dynamite is (too) useful for dropping damage behind shields, and her ult is a big easy damage-dealing distraction. It's a lot easier to believe you're doing something as Ashe when you're uselessly plinking off a lot more shots against shields with the odd dynamite thrown in, simply because you can pop off a lot more shots and get more hits through sheer volume of fire.
You know now that I think about it I have noticed far fewer Widows and to a lesser extent Hanzo.
Like I used to get them almost every game but now barely ever.
I think agree its partially that many of them probably saw a huge SR drop after 2-2-2 and not being able to pad their DPS wins. And its just that now if you're underperforming with those two it is way more obvious and a lot of folks don't like that pressure.
Yeah, I'm betting the dedicated Widow players that constantly bomb matches on their unachievable path to pro status have gotten sorted down in ranking a fair ways, seeing as they can't depend on extra DPS or tanks to prop up a mediocre performance anymore. Now a Widow player actually has to be reliably good to be a worthwhile pick, which takes a huge portion of Widow players out of the running.
I think Ashe has soaked up a lot of mediocre Widow players as well. She's a lot more forgiving, has no charge up to worry about, all of her abilities deal damage in some way, her dynamite is (too) useful for dropping damage behind shields, and her ult is a big easy damage-dealing distraction. It's a lot easier to believe you're doing something as Ashe when you're uselessly plinking off a lot more shots against shields with the odd dynamite thrown in, simply because you can pop off a lot more shots and get more hits through sheer volume of fire.
You know now that I think about it I have noticed far fewer Widows and to a lesser extent Hanzo.
Like I used to get them almost every game but now barely ever.
I think agree its partially that many of them probably saw a huge SR drop after 2-2-2 and not being able to pad their DPS wins. And its just that now if you're underperforming with those two it is way more obvious and a lot of folks don't like that pressure.
Sigma is such a hard counter to Widow, even more than Winston is. As soon as he sees her perch, he can put up a shield that shuts that perch down, and nobody else is going to be touching that barrier to break it for her. She has problems repositioning around it too because he can just recall the shield and redeploy it to her new spot. He can't actually physically threaten them like Winston or DVa can, but just a right click at range almost instantly shuts them down. It's ridiculous how much it shuts them down on maps places where snipers can be awful like Anubis A or Kings Row.
It's a very powerful move (using it to protect your own Widow is also very strong), but it's madness to try it if your other tank isn't an Orisa or Rein. You just won't have the self-protection to survive otherwise, I reckon.
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
It's a very powerful move (using it to protect your own Widow is also very strong), but it's madness to try it if your other tank isn't an Orisa or Rein. You just won't have the self-protection to survive otherwise, I reckon.
Running Sigma as your only barrier tank is madness, yes.
Yeah, that only really works if Sigma is the off tank. But also Widow can just reposition. So Sigma basically has to focus a lot of attention on Widow and if he's ever slow Widow can get a sneaky pick.
So Winston is really the better counter because he can just kill Widow and then join in a 6v5 for like 10 seconds until she respawns.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Yeah even if he is blocking Widow that like his entire shield being dedicated to one target which the rest of said Widow's team can take advantage of.
On the handful of occasions I tried to play Hanzo, I sort of felt more pressure because of 2-2-2. When I play DPS I feel an obligation to do enough damage to fill my role, and with a sniper there's a strong possibility that I'll miss a lot and our team can't kill anything.
It's not actually any different than before at all, but 2-2-2 has changed the way I approach the game psychologically. QP is still QP though, it's expected that you might suck ass there because you're practicing.
The far-shield position has its downsides, sure - but it's still a powerful ploy at the right moment, at the right stage of a teamfight. It's like a Reinhardt charging. Can this leave you completely out of position and about to get instagibbed? Yeah! Could you also get one all-important pick that allows you to turn around and score a 5-man shatter? Why yes it can also do that...
Just don't do it all the time. Do it when it's smart. Rollsafe.gif
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
The far-shield position has its downsides, sure - but it's still a powerful ploy at the right moment, at the right stage of a teamfight. It's like a Reinhardt charging. Can this leave you completely out of position and about to get instagibbed? Yeah! Could you also get one all-important pick that allows you to turn around and score a 5-man shatter? Why yes it can also do that...
Just don't do it all the time. Do it when it's smart. Rollsafe.gif
I feel like it's highly relevant to the early discussion about that DPS and how to deal with it. Sigma tossing one ability to completely shut them down for awhile is pretty huge, especially since they can get the ability back just as soon as it stops shutting them down.
i'm definitely seeing a lot more doomfist, reaper, mei, sym, and much less genji, widow, hanzo. i am happy about this. I am unhappy about being unable to swap. i'd love a trade roles button.
They won't allow role swapping because of the matchmaking - you'd be potentially in the wrong game for your rank. I suppose they could make it possible if you are similarly ranked in the other role, but I doubt they'll go to the trouble.
I think people are playing less snipers and flankers because of the meta tanks/healers more than the pressure of role queue to perform. Double shield is much easier to handle with a Doomfist or a Reaper than a Widow and Genji and Tracer have a rough time when every game has a Moira.
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2019
I don't know about that. Double Shield is only really played heavy at higher ranks and even then a lot of folks just get bored of it sometimes and play something else.
And even in QP where there is even less of it you barely see snipers like that anymore.
Two questions about tanks which as I type this I realize I could just Google but I wrote the rest of this before this sentence so screw it Post Reply...
What should I consider running if the other tank is running Hammond?
And which tanks can I run D.va with guilt-free?
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mightyjongyoSour CrrmEast Bay, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
d.va/winston is still a good combo I feel depending on rank.
if your other tank is running hammond it depends on what the rest of the comp is. Does the rest of your team need a shield to work with? are they playing aggresively, requiring more mobility? Typically a hammond (should) work to be disrupting the enemy backline so that it's easier for your dps to get picks and overall enabling the rest of the team to move in. so you should try to complement that by either playing sigma to move with your team or winston to play a more dive-like style. arguably you could use dva to peel as your team pushes in or hog to better make use of the space created by hammond as well?
that's what i would do anyway, im sure there are other meta reasons to not play winston at all right now but we're already talking about a comp that isn't double-shield so *shrug*
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Pro play influences what people play more than anything else.
Can I ask is there actual data for this?
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I had the first great game in a while, a loooong while. It was Hollywood QP as Ana support, but everyone stayed and we were able to basically play like a match with the teams switching sides, and there seemed to be an unspoken agreement among everyone that neither side would use Sigma or Moira. It was glorious and swapping felt fun and made me remember how good the game can be.
As Sigma you don't even need to put your shield right in Widow's face for it to be effective. Just placing it at an off angle to your main shield in order to cut off flank shots is often enough to make Widow's job tough/impossible, while still keeping the shield close enough for others to make use of it. Winston would be a good Widow counter if he wasn't currently super weak in general compared to all the other shield tanks. By the time you've jumped to Widow and zapped her down, there's a very good chance you've already lost someone on your team because they only have one/zero barriers available compared to the other team fighting at the frontline. Right now Winston struggles in anything that isn't a dive comp, and even then dive is just pretty weak in general.
As Sigma you don't even need to put your shield right in Widow's face for it to be effective. Just placing it at an off angle to your main shield in order to cut off flank shots is often enough to make Widow's job tough/impossible, while still keeping the shield close enough for others to make use of it. Winston would be a good Widow counter if he wasn't currently super weak in general compared to all the other shield tanks. By the time you've jumped to Widow and zapped her down, there's a very good chance you've already lost someone on your team because they only have one/zero barriers available compared to the other team fighting at the frontline. Right now Winston struggles in anything that isn't a dive comp, and even then dive is just pretty weak in general.
I'm so sad for my big smart monkey
If your team is dumb enough to get picked past your Rein or Orisa they will he dumb enough to get picked past your Sigma shield. Sym is still pretty popular and just murdering her as Winston can swing fights. So can diving Mercy or Zen or Ana. Moira is hard to kill without your team also killing her but you can put a lot of pressure on her and keep her away from your team.
I can usually get a lot of work done with Winston in high silver unless they pick one of his counters.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
As Sigma you don't even need to put your shield right in Widow's face for it to be effective. Just placing it at an off angle to your main shield in order to cut off flank shots is often enough to make Widow's job tough/impossible, while still keeping the shield close enough for others to make use of it. Winston would be a good Widow counter if he wasn't currently super weak in general compared to all the other shield tanks. By the time you've jumped to Widow and zapped her down, there's a very good chance you've already lost someone on your team because they only have one/zero barriers available compared to the other team fighting at the frontline. Right now Winston struggles in anything that isn't a dive comp, and even then dive is just pretty weak in general.
I'm so sad for my big smart monkey
If your team is dumb enough to get picked past your Rein or Orisa they will he dumb enough to get picked past your Sigma shield. Sym is still pretty popular and just murdering her as Winston can swing fights. So can diving Mercy or Zen or Ana. Moira is hard to kill without your team also killing her but you can put a lot of pressure on her and keep her away from your team.
I can usually get a lot of work done with Winston in high silver unless they pick one of his counters.
My point is that Sigma's shield is good for covering off-angle space so that your team has more room to move around freely in, which can counter Widow along with other long-range DPS without either you or your team (dumb as they may be) having to do any additional work. That's part of what makes him so strong. I don't disagree that Winston can get work done if the enemy team isn't countering/focusing him (he's my favorite main tank for a reason). But statistically he's a worse default pick than any other shield tank right now. Even in the ranks where meta doesn't matter as much/at all, he's being picked way less and winning way less when he is picked. He can be a good pocket pick for focusing a carry or trying to force someone to swap, but he's also way more easily countered than other shield tanks. His shield/protection isn't strong enough to function as a main tank outside of dive these days, and there are generally better choices in the off-tank slot (barring specific enemy comps that are especially weak to a Winston solo dive). All things being equal he sadly just isn't as powerful/versatile as the other choices right now.
That being said, if you're making him work in your matches and finding success, I'm not about to tell you not to play him. I love playing him when I can! But he could definitely use some buffs/tweaks to make him more generally viable.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Ugh, I dunno if I grind through the shitty DPS balance right now to get the Bastion skin. Every fucking match comes down to which side picks the most characters out of Reaper/Sym/Doomfist, and I'm particular sick and tired of putting half a magazine into DF and Reaper and they get to waltz the fuck off without any actual risk. I'm just not getting why Pharah's ult is still suicidal nearly always, whereas Reaper's ult takes multiple people focusing him to overwhelm the health regen and then he still phases away most of the time.
Ugh, I dunno if I grind through the shitty DPS balance right now to get the Bastion skin. Every fucking match comes down to which side picks the most characters out of Reaper/Sym/Doomfist, and I'm particular sick and tired of putting half a magazine into DF and Reaper and they get to waltz the fuck off without any actual risk. I'm just not getting why Pharah's ult is still suicidal nearly always, whereas Reaper's ult takes multiple people focusing him to overwhelm the health regen and then he still phases away most of the time.
play mystery heroes! it might take you longer to get your wins, but at least it's all a mess and you don't have to feel bad about anything that happens
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2019
Ah I see it. Well, looking at Overbuff Orisa and Sigma are in the top 4 at every tier but their pick rates don't really ballon out past the other tanks(sans Winston/D.Va) until diamond or rather Master.
Which doesn't really change my stance on it only being played really heavy at the higher ranks. Though I guess folks who play it at lower ranks probably do it because its "the meta". So I don't disagree with that point.
Either way, I am pretty surprised that Winston and D.Va's pick rate are pretty abysmal across every tier. I think part of it is maybe them needing some love but part of it might be Reaper and Mei being so popular rn.
Also Moira being hand downs the most popular support across every tier is something. I believe she was always super popular in low ranks but struggled in high ranks. I'm guessing its because she can output so much healing and has damage that can go through barriers. So she works well with and against Orisa.
Winston and D.Va are suffering right now because of goats. In D.Va's case she got nerfed into uselessness, and in Winston's case they buffed the DPS that they wanted/expected to kill goats, which had the knock-on effect of making him super counterable. Once role lock came in, the characters that rose to the top just happened to be pretty strong counters to them (e.g. Reaper and Mei as you say).
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Ugh, I dunno if I grind through the shitty DPS balance right now to get the Bastion skin. Every fucking match comes down to which side picks the most characters out of Reaper/Sym/Doomfist, and I'm particular sick and tired of putting half a magazine into DF and Reaper and they get to waltz the fuck off without any actual risk. I'm just not getting why Pharah's ult is still suicidal nearly always, whereas Reaper's ult takes multiple people focusing him to overwhelm the health regen and then he still phases away most of the time.
play mystery heroes! it might take you longer to get your wins, but at least it's all a mess and you don't have to feel bad about anything that happens
That's a good point, at least there will be variety there instead of every fucking match devolving into which side gets frustrated and stacks the most OP characters first.
I'm seriously incredibly sick of Reaper. It pisses me off to no end that I can hose him down with a well-aimed stream of shots and he shrugs off the damage because he shot twice and killed me. There's no fucking reason for it anymore. It's incredibly easy to get him into range, incredibly easy for him to hit and kill targets, incredibly easy for him to get away, and reliably countering him means having multiple players with counter-characters all paying attention to when he gets to walk in for kills. Doomfist and Sym are still bullshit too, but they at least have to do some work to really exploit their OPness.
Seriously, I had a game today where I was playing Orissa and tossed a shield about ten feet in front of me. Reaper walks straight through it, walks right up to me, and proceeds to kill me. This was with me and two other players shooting him, but that fuckawful health regen is just as insanely high as his damage.
yeah if i'm orisa and don't switch, i almost exclusively save my halts for reaper and just have to shield dance a lot more and hope my healers are on their game.
Anyone know a good resource for learning, like, positioning and moving in particular? Especially as a tank, I'm never sure if I should be, like, extending a bit with my shields so we can shoot people and run back if necessary or setting my shield back so people can't just unload on it nonstop. Like my instinct says 'extend, the wall/edge/tank's body is there if needed' but really often my shield sits out there getting shot without anyone taking advantage of it to return fire.
Sometimes I do things that seem reasonable, like shield a gap then run past it to move towards the objective, but then I'm all alone past that gap and I'm not entirely sure whose fault that is. Am I being to aggressive and overextending? I almost always feel like the rest of my group is too passive, except when they go chasing surviving enemies off objective then get picked off by the respawn.
So what should I be reading or watching to get better? I don't particularly mind losing except to unchecked turrets or Reaper, but not being sure why is awful.
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Lego Bastion will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine.
You link twitch and your Blizzard ID. Think that's done in the options menu somewhere.
Ugh, fine. I'll make time while I get ready to move. This is clearly Bastion's One True Skin. I crave it.
Steam: TimIsOnSteam
Battle.net: TimIsOnBnet#1745
Switch: SW-7012-4788-7410
PSN: TimIsOnTheNet
You know now that I think about it I have noticed far fewer Widows and to a lesser extent Hanzo.
Like I used to get them almost every game but now barely ever.
I think agree its partially that many of them probably saw a huge SR drop after 2-2-2 and not being able to pad their DPS wins. And its just that now if you're underperforming with those two it is way more obvious and a lot of folks don't like that pressure.
Sigma is such a hard counter to Widow, even more than Winston is. As soon as he sees her perch, he can put up a shield that shuts that perch down, and nobody else is going to be touching that barrier to break it for her. She has problems repositioning around it too because he can just recall the shield and redeploy it to her new spot. He can't actually physically threaten them like Winston or DVa can, but just a right click at range almost instantly shuts them down. It's ridiculous how much it shuts them down on maps places where snipers can be awful like Anubis A or Kings Row.
Running Sigma as your only barrier tank is madness, yes.
So Winston is really the better counter because he can just kill Widow and then join in a 6v5 for like 10 seconds until she respawns.
It's not actually any different than before at all, but 2-2-2 has changed the way I approach the game psychologically. QP is still QP though, it's expected that you might suck ass there because you're practicing.
Just don't do it all the time. Do it when it's smart. Rollsafe.gif
I feel like it's highly relevant to the early discussion about that DPS and how to deal with it. Sigma tossing one ability to completely shut them down for awhile is pretty huge, especially since they can get the ability back just as soon as it stops shutting them down.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
And even in QP where there is even less of it you barely see snipers like that anymore.
What should I consider running if the other tank is running Hammond?
And which tanks can I run D.va with guilt-free?
if your other tank is running hammond it depends on what the rest of the comp is. Does the rest of your team need a shield to work with? are they playing aggresively, requiring more mobility? Typically a hammond (should) work to be disrupting the enemy backline so that it's easier for your dps to get picks and overall enabling the rest of the team to move in. so you should try to complement that by either playing sigma to move with your team or winston to play a more dive-like style. arguably you could use dva to peel as your team pushes in or hog to better make use of the space created by hammond as well?
that's what i would do anyway, im sure there are other meta reasons to not play winston at all right now but we're already talking about a comp that isn't double-shield so *shrug*
Can I ask is there actual data for this?
I'm so sad for my big smart monkey
If your team is dumb enough to get picked past your Rein or Orisa they will he dumb enough to get picked past your Sigma shield. Sym is still pretty popular and just murdering her as Winston can swing fights. So can diving Mercy or Zen or Ana. Moira is hard to kill without your team also killing her but you can put a lot of pressure on her and keep her away from your team.
I can usually get a lot of work done with Winston in high silver unless they pick one of his counters.
My point is that Sigma's shield is good for covering off-angle space so that your team has more room to move around freely in, which can counter Widow along with other long-range DPS without either you or your team (dumb as they may be) having to do any additional work. That's part of what makes him so strong. I don't disagree that Winston can get work done if the enemy team isn't countering/focusing him (he's my favorite main tank for a reason). But statistically he's a worse default pick than any other shield tank right now. Even in the ranks where meta doesn't matter as much/at all, he's being picked way less and winning way less when he is picked. He can be a good pocket pick for focusing a carry or trying to force someone to swap, but he's also way more easily countered than other shield tanks. His shield/protection isn't strong enough to function as a main tank outside of dive these days, and there are generally better choices in the off-tank slot (barring specific enemy comps that are especially weak to a Winston solo dive). All things being equal he sadly just isn't as powerful/versatile as the other choices right now.
That being said, if you're making him work in your matches and finding success, I'm not about to tell you not to play him. I love playing him when I can! But he could definitely use some buffs/tweaks to make him more generally viable.
Here's the most recent info: https://i.redd.it/68fdxq3dyxl31.jpg
play mystery heroes! it might take you longer to get your wins, but at least it's all a mess and you don't have to feel bad about anything that happens
I've seen that but that focues on win rate. What I'm looking for is a breakdown of pick rate.
The source listed on that GIF also gives pick rates.
Which doesn't really change my stance on it only being played really heavy at the higher ranks. Though I guess folks who play it at lower ranks probably do it because its "the meta". So I don't disagree with that point.
Either way, I am pretty surprised that Winston and D.Va's pick rate are pretty abysmal across every tier. I think part of it is maybe them needing some love but part of it might be Reaper and Mei being so popular rn.
Also Moira being hand downs the most popular support across every tier is something. I believe she was always super popular in low ranks but struggled in high ranks. I'm guessing its because she can output so much healing and has damage that can go through barriers. So she works well with and against Orisa.
That's a good point, at least there will be variety there instead of every fucking match devolving into which side gets frustrated and stacks the most OP characters first.
I'm seriously incredibly sick of Reaper. It pisses me off to no end that I can hose him down with a well-aimed stream of shots and he shrugs off the damage because he shot twice and killed me. There's no fucking reason for it anymore. It's incredibly easy to get him into range, incredibly easy for him to hit and kill targets, incredibly easy for him to get away, and reliably countering him means having multiple players with counter-characters all paying attention to when he gets to walk in for kills. Doomfist and Sym are still bullshit too, but they at least have to do some work to really exploit their OPness.
Seriously, I had a game today where I was playing Orissa and tossed a shield about ten feet in front of me. Reaper walks straight through it, walks right up to me, and proceeds to kill me. This was with me and two other players shooting him, but that fuckawful health regen is just as insanely high as his damage.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Sometimes I do things that seem reasonable, like shield a gap then run past it to move towards the objective, but then I'm all alone past that gap and I'm not entirely sure whose fault that is. Am I being to aggressive and overextending? I almost always feel like the rest of my group is too passive, except when they go chasing surviving enemies off objective then get picked off by the respawn.
So what should I be reading or watching to get better? I don't particularly mind losing except to unchecked turrets or Reaper, but not being sure why is awful.