I don’t know what cost of living is in Poland but $30k a year is... not good. It’s ~$22k less than the average per capita income in the US.
The cost of living in Poland is like 50% lower than the US, need to factor that in when trying to do an apples-to-apples comparison.
Generally, a lot of industrialized, manufacturing-oriented smaller country that have lower wages than the United States...also have a lower cost of living. I think that has more to do with the United States cost of living rising consistently faster than wages, even before considering inflation. Where I'm from, Taiwan, the average monthly salary is 60% lower than the United States. Which sounds bad, until you consider that food is 50 to 80% less expensive than in the United States (excluding cheese and milk, and to be fair, most people don't eat cheese and milk), urban apartments (which are generally smaller than the US) are 50 to 70% less expensive to rent, mass transit and child care are 50 to 70% cheaper, electricity and internet are 50 to 60% cheaper, and of course, national health insurance is probably 90% cheaper or more.
That being said, I think Taiwan is more industrialized than Poland (that wasn't true 50 years ago though). it's certainly a lot smaller. About 20 to 30 years ago, the standard of living was pretty comparable, maybe a slightly advantage to Poland.
I don’t know what cost of living is in Poland but $30k a year is... not good. It’s ~$22k less than the average per capita income in the US.
Combine that with working 50-70 hour weeks for years on end and we are in wage slave territory.
Unless I’m not understanding this chart?
Cost of living in poland is like 40-60% lower than in the US. So it's not an amazing wage, but it enables a very comfortable life in Poland.
Also I'm not saying crunch didn't happen, but.. I've seen a few workplace rating website reports of former employees for the company I work at.
I've never seen a single objective one.
Yeah don't trust those "reported salaries" as anything useful. It's almost always bullshit.
That, too. But I meant also negative reports. We've had wildly negative reports written about us I know for a fact were 75% bullshit, 20% anger, and 5% truth. Multiple times.
I've edited this into my other post, but decided to do a new one for this:
I'm not sure how CDPR compares to the worst offenders in the industry, but I don't think they're extremely bad- While this is probably also a sign of the whole industry being hellish, it also feels a bit strange to push a report like this at a time like this.
If the problem was happening for years, why not come out earlier, and not a month before release, if your goal is "do good", and not "revenge on company"?
Dunno. I've seem way too many revenge reviews, which might bias my view.
For game development?! It can't be that low. Unless the cost of living in Poland is a lot less than the US.
EDIT: Google says polish CoL is VERY much lower than the US. Wow. I wonder how polish food is.
Fuckin' delicious
Just look at Pierogi’s! Kielbasa’s! Their breaded pork cutlets(like schnitzel) and stuffed cabbage! And that’s not even the tip of the proverbial Iceburg!
I think CDPR would have gotten much less shit if it hadn't shouted from the rooftops about how it's special and it will no longer be Crunchland. Like it's one thing to be just another member of the crowd doing (shitty) business as usual but it's another thing to respond to reports of crunch with "from now on, no more crunch" and then surprise it's crunch time baby cuz our investors want us to hit that sweet holiday release window. At least don't like to our faces!
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
This is nihilism and I don't think it helps anybody, with anything. "Why even attempt labor reforms, people could try to cheat them!" What point do you think you've made with this, honestly?
Just watched the fashion trailer. I have been (and am still) planning to run as a militant Corpo (maybe to take down the system, maybe to conform to it - have to see how the story actually plays out and how I find the character) - but in a fun bit of meta, I find that I really hate the kitsch aesthetic on a personal level. So I'm going into this with a contempt for the kind of colorful individuality and kitsch that I assume my character and the people around him will also share. That's at least interesting as a starting point.
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
This is nihilism and I don't think it helps anybody, with anything. "Why even attempt labor reforms, people could try to cheat them!" What point do you think you've made with this, honestly?
It's not nihilism, it's just how things roll in a capitalist world. Nihilism would be me pointing out that it cannot change and that humans are doomed to being slaves, which is not something I feel. I do feel like corporations are EXTREMELY good at missing the point or avoiding accountability, and I've got a whole lot of history backing me up on that.
And boycotting a game is not labor reform in any shape or way. You need to boycott the entire industry under a mass, well publicized movement so there's no mistaking it on the C Suite level for it to even start having an impact.
If you're going to withhold your money because of crunch, you do it industry wide or you don't do it at all.
jungleroomx on
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
This is nihilism and I don't think it helps anybody, with anything. "Why even attempt labor reforms, people could try to cheat them!" What point do you think you've made with this, honestly?
It's not nihilism, it's just how things roll in a capitalist world. Nihilism would be me pointing out that it cannot change and that humans are doomed to being slaves, which is not something I feel.
And boycotting a game is not labor reform in any shape or way. You need to boycott the entire industry under a mass, well publicized movement so there's no mistaking it on the C Suite level for it to even start having an impact.
If you're going to withhold your money because of crunch, you do it industry wide or you don't do it at all.
Or, and hear me out on this, you withhold money based on your own ethical beliefs on what is right to do. You don't have to solo clear capitalism or not even attempt the concept of morality. That's.. a really out there statement you have just made.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
This is nihilism and I don't think it helps anybody, with anything. "Why even attempt labor reforms, people could try to cheat them!" What point do you think you've made with this, honestly?
It's not nihilism, it's just how things roll in a capitalist world. Nihilism would be me pointing out that it cannot change and that humans are doomed to being slaves, which is not something I feel.
And boycotting a game is not labor reform in any shape or way. You need to boycott the entire industry under a mass, well publicized movement so there's no mistaking it on the C Suite level for it to even start having an impact.
If you're going to withhold your money because of crunch, you do it industry wide or you don't do it at all.
Or, and hear me out on this, you withhold money based on your own ethical beliefs on what is right to do. You don't have to solo clear capitalism or not even attempt the concept of morality. That's.. a really out there statement you have just made.
I mean, is it?
Or is it just that boycotts have never done a damn thing unless it's a fully organized, fully publicized grassroots movement?
And is it truly "out there" for me to think that withholding money from one company due to bad labor practices but turning around and giving it to another company for engaging in the exact same practices but is better at lying about it just kind of asinine?
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
Your continuing to say that caring about this is dumb because everyone does it is a really bad look.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The fact the CDPR flat out lied and said they where against crunch and wouldn't do it while they had people crunch 16 hours a day 7 days a week for over a year now, and then flat out lied about it being the employees decision ... well, that means they don't ever get my money ever again.
I was looking forward to this game. Fuck CDPR for taking it from me.
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
Your continuing to say that caring about this is dumb because everyone does it is a really bad look.
You're caring about it under extremely strict circumstances. You're also not caring about it when the companies don't publicly lie about it on Twitter.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
What I'm getting out of this is it's fine to exploit workers and we will continue to give companies our money, just don't lie about it on social media.
What I'm getting out of this is it's fine to exploit workers and we will continue to give companies our money, just don't lie about it on social media.
That's the line crosser.
For them, yes? There's a clear amount of shit one person can take about any topic. Exploiting workers while also claiming to not exploit the workers is objectively worse than just exploiting the workers. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
What I'm getting out of this is it's fine to exploit workers and we will continue to give companies our money, just don't lie about it on social media.
That's the line crosser.
For them, yes? There's a clear amount of shit one person can take about any topic. Exploiting workers while also claiming to not exploit the workers is objectively worse than just exploiting the workers. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
This is probably the point where I disagree.
Exploiting the workers is the same no matter what the PR department says, to me. I always expect PR and social media to lie to people, and so far most companies have not let me down in that regard.
If that's the sticking point, yeah, I don't get it. CDPR is now a huge dev house, they're gonna go the same way Blizzard did.
I recently unlocked SWAT armour skins for PAYDAY 2. All this fashion stuff makes me wonder - can I take the clothes of my kills and wear their bloodstained finery?
Corsini on
Steam Badger A greasemonkey script for better gifting and peering
What I'm getting out of this is it's fine to exploit workers and we will continue to give companies our money, just don't lie about it on social media.
That's the line crosser.
For them, yes? There's a clear amount of shit one person can take about any topic. Exploiting workers while also claiming to not exploit the workers is objectively worse than just exploiting the workers. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
This is probably the point where I disagree.
Exploiting the workers is the same no matter what the PR department says, to me. I always expect PR and social media to lie to people, and so far most companies have not let me down in that regard.
If that's the sticking point, yeah, I don't get it. CDPR is now a huge dev house, they're gonna go the same way Blizzard did.
Ah okay then I guess there's not much more to discuss on the topic then.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
What I'm getting out of this is it's fine to exploit workers and we will continue to give companies our money, just don't lie about it on social media.
That's the line crosser.
For them, yes? There's a clear amount of shit one person can take about any topic. Exploiting workers while also claiming to not exploit the workers is objectively worse than just exploiting the workers. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
This is probably the point where I disagree.
Exploiting the workers is the same no matter what the PR department says, to me. I always expect PR and social media to lie to people, and so far most companies have not let me down in that regard.
If that's the sticking point, yeah, I don't get it. CDPR is now a huge dev house, they're gonna go the same way Blizzard did.
This is a great example of how debates can go sideways really fast.
The original topic was that if you're boycotting CDPR for crunching employees, and the reason you're doing that is because you have a problem with worker exploitation, you need to boycott almost the entire gaming industry.
CDPR lying about crunch is bad, but if you only boycott them for worker exploitation and buy products from other devs/publishers who also engage in it the message you're sending is not that you have a problem with crunch but rather don't get caught.
And it's not stupid to have a problem with the worker exploitation, and no one is saying you have to buy a product if you don't wish to for any reason. Just expect that if you state you're doing so to claim a moral high ground that others might point out the flaws in your logic.
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Companies should not be given goodwill at all. They're making products in exchange for my money. If the product sucks, they don't get my money. I don't care what kind of public relations, advertising, or side-work they've done.
When a company shits the bed and does something we only associate with "other" companies, I'm no longer surprised because capitalism just kinda does what it does. As dev houses grow, their behavior waveforms all collapse in the same way.
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Combine that with working 50-70 hour weeks for years on end and we are in wage slave territory.
Unless I’m not understanding this chart?
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
For game development?! It can't be that low. Unless the cost of living in Poland is a lot less than the US.
EDIT: Google says polish CoL is VERY much lower than the US. Wow. I wonder how polish food is.
Cost of living in poland is like 40-60% lower than in the US. So it's not an amazing wage, but it enables a very comfortable life in Poland.
Also I'm not saying crunch didn't happen, but.. I've seen a few workplace rating website reports of former employees for the company I work at.
I've never seen a single objective one.
Edit: So, if labor laws were broken, there needs to be repercussions. And if labor laws are too lax, we need new labor laws,
Of course it's way lower! It varies wildly over europe.
You can live a live of luxury in Croatia from the money a "measly german pension" gives you, for example.
Can't compare it to the US, especially to tech cities where the rent alone is insane and requires a much higher monthly income just to survive.
Generally, a lot of industrialized, manufacturing-oriented smaller country that have lower wages than the United States...also have a lower cost of living. I think that has more to do with the United States cost of living rising consistently faster than wages, even before considering inflation. Where I'm from, Taiwan, the average monthly salary is 60% lower than the United States. Which sounds bad, until you consider that food is 50 to 80% less expensive than in the United States (excluding cheese and milk, and to be fair, most people don't eat cheese and milk), urban apartments (which are generally smaller than the US) are 50 to 70% less expensive to rent, mass transit and child care are 50 to 70% cheaper, electricity and internet are 50 to 60% cheaper, and of course, national health insurance is probably 90% cheaper or more.
That being said, I think Taiwan is more industrialized than Poland (that wasn't true 50 years ago though). it's certainly a lot smaller. About 20 to 30 years ago, the standard of living was pretty comparable, maybe a slightly advantage to Poland.
Yeah don't trust those "reported salaries" as anything useful. It's almost always bullshit.
That, too. But I meant also negative reports. We've had wildly negative reports written about us I know for a fact were 75% bullshit, 20% anger, and 5% truth. Multiple times.
I've edited this into my other post, but decided to do a new one for this:
I'm not sure how CDPR compares to the worst offenders in the industry, but I don't think they're extremely bad- While this is probably also a sign of the whole industry being hellish, it also feels a bit strange to push a report like this at a time like this.
If the problem was happening for years, why not come out earlier, and not a month before release, if your goal is "do good", and not "revenge on company"?
Dunno. I've seem way too many revenge reviews, which might bias my view.
Fuckin' delicious
Just look at Pierogi’s! Kielbasa’s! Their breaded pork cutlets(like schnitzel) and stuffed cabbage! And that’s not even the tip of the proverbial Iceburg!
I mean, because they were idiots and tried to spin this as PR is bad, yes
But you've got numerous studios out there that just flat out lie or obfuscate the fact they're doing the same exact thing (Japanese developers are apparently extraordinarily rough and their normal workday culture is damn near crunch).
If the result you're looking for is "crunch = not get my money", then every major studio in the world should also be on that list.
If the result is "they lied about crunch", then obviously the target will be smaller but that seems like kind of a silly reason to boycott: Crunch and employee abuse is there whether the PR guy lies about it or not.
Quite simply, 'everyone else does it too' is no longer an excuse I care about. CDPR did some pretty awful shit while crowing about how they were better than that. That is no longer acceptable to me.
Everyone has a line. If this isn't yours, fine. But it is mine.
So it's not the actual abuse of the employees, but lying about it?
No, it's the actual abuse of employees. The lying just makes it extra shitty.
Then the whole "everyone else does it, too" is not an excuse, it's reality. There are very few studios out there (This thread uprooted two, the devs of Super Bunny Man and Path of Exile, both in New Zealand) that don't actively engage in crunch, and engage in it far beyond what crunch is "supposed" to be and firmly into the "this is a white collar sweatshop" territory.
If that's your thing, then more power to you. I just know that the only thing boycotts will teach companies WRT crunch time is that they just need to lie about it and force employees into illegal NDA's.
This is nihilism and I don't think it helps anybody, with anything. "Why even attempt labor reforms, people could try to cheat them!" What point do you think you've made with this, honestly?
https://xkcd.com/2368/
It's not nihilism, it's just how things roll in a capitalist world. Nihilism would be me pointing out that it cannot change and that humans are doomed to being slaves, which is not something I feel. I do feel like corporations are EXTREMELY good at missing the point or avoiding accountability, and I've got a whole lot of history backing me up on that.
And boycotting a game is not labor reform in any shape or way. You need to boycott the entire industry under a mass, well publicized movement so there's no mistaking it on the C Suite level for it to even start having an impact.
If you're going to withhold your money because of crunch, you do it industry wide or you don't do it at all.
Dear lordy.
This is going to be such an amazing world to explore.
Gonna be using bikes basically all the time personally. Just feels more Cyberpunk to me.
And the soundtrack continues to be killer.
Or, and hear me out on this, you withhold money based on your own ethical beliefs on what is right to do. You don't have to solo clear capitalism or not even attempt the concept of morality. That's.. a really out there statement you have just made.
I mean, is it?
Or is it just that boycotts have never done a damn thing unless it's a fully organized, fully publicized grassroots movement?
And is it truly "out there" for me to think that withholding money from one company due to bad labor practices but turning around and giving it to another company for engaging in the exact same practices but is better at lying about it just kind of asinine?
Your continuing to say that caring about this is dumb because everyone does it is a really bad look.
You're caring about it under extremely strict circumstances. You're also not caring about it when the companies don't publicly lie about it on Twitter.
That's the line crosser.
For them, yes? There's a clear amount of shit one person can take about any topic. Exploiting workers while also claiming to not exploit the workers is objectively worse than just exploiting the workers. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
This is probably the point where I disagree.
Exploiting the workers is the same no matter what the PR department says, to me. I always expect PR and social media to lie to people, and so far most companies have not let me down in that regard.
If that's the sticking point, yeah, I don't get it. CDPR is now a huge dev house, they're gonna go the same way Blizzard did.
Steam Badger A greasemonkey script for better gifting and peering
Ah okay then I guess there's not much more to discuss on the topic then.
This is a great example of how debates can go sideways really fast.
The original topic was that if you're boycotting CDPR for crunching employees, and the reason you're doing that is because you have a problem with worker exploitation, you need to boycott almost the entire gaming industry.
CDPR lying about crunch is bad, but if you only boycott them for worker exploitation and buy products from other devs/publishers who also engage in it the message you're sending is not that you have a problem with crunch but rather don't get caught.
And it's not stupid to have a problem with the worker exploitation, and no one is saying you have to buy a product if you don't wish to for any reason. Just expect that if you state you're doing so to claim a moral high ground that others might point out the flaws in your logic.
When a company shits the bed and does something we only associate with "other" companies, I'm no longer surprised because capitalism just kinda does what it does. As dev houses grow, their behavior waveforms all collapse in the same way.
You jest but honestly there is probably someone that would totally do that.
I need a cold shower.
yeah ME!
I'ma steal everyone's augs and sell em!