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[Legends of Runeterra]: Enjoy Early and Evening Engagements in this Excellent Expansion

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    RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    So how does the 2 expeditions work? I'm guessing you get better rewards from the first one and it's possible to go infinite. It was a lot of fun, magic drafting definitely helped me and Zed was my mvp.

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    ED!ED! Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    So how does the 2 expeditions work? I'm guessing you get better rewards from the first one and it's possible to go infinite. It was a lot of fun, magic drafting definitely helped me and Zed was my mvp.

    It's the best of the two trials. You're under no obligation to do both of them (can quit any time). And the reward for seven wins is essentially another draft token (in shards).

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
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    SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Putting my engineering experience to use and taking a stab at a flowchart. Mostly because I don't like the existing ones that break things out into separate spell phases; I feel like that tries to force MtG's phases onto this when the structure here feels more like it's based around passing turns back and forth (instead of passing priority and moving into different phases).

    I haven't put much thought into the section after pushing the button yet, but if anybody has corrections I would appreciate them.

    e: I'm already trying to fix one thing, which is that you can't play more fast spells after doing a thing unless you've only played fast spells.
    e2: it's stylistically ehhhhh, but that particular quirk should be fixed.
    e3: hrm, I need to account for when your opponent has a slow spell or unit waiting to resolve.
    e4: okay, some of it is clunky but I think it's mostly correct now, in terms of when you can play what. One thing that I don't know is if you play nothing but a burst spell, does your opponent then get another turn before things resolve (ie, does it count as having "done a thing" once you push the button).

    23hdqnryi0hu.jpg

    The reason I'm trying to make this all fit into an alternating turn structure is because I think that's what a lot of the cooler aspects of the design hinge on; do you want to commit to what is happening, or do you want to add more to it and thereby allow your opponent to also add more (see the whole "do I play more attackers or attack right now" thing).

    Surfpossum on
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Okay so I feel like I have enough of a rules grasp now. Here are some actual gameplay thoughts:

    I feel if the game goes longer there is a higher propensity to get into more neutral states and go into topdeck wars than other games. I feel it's pretty common to have 10 mana and basically just go into rng mode for the rest of the game. I think card draw is just pretty limited overall. Or there should be mana spending activated abilities.

    I think a lot of things feel samey. Maybe this will change as I get access to more cards but I have built the budget control deck and it still has aggro deck style openings and a lot of decks I look at are pretty creature heavy, even with a theoretical full card pool. I think spells are pretty weak, and the good ones tend to require you to have bodies to capitalize. I don't think you could build a frost mage or draw go style deck in this.

    I do really like spell mana and I think there's an interesting trade off with it in the early game of "I could cast nothing to ramp into spells." If only there were more interesting spells.

    I think that the attack token concept is so good. Do you want to push your luck and add more threats, or do you go with what you have? It's a really good choice. The only time this is bad is at the end of the game, since if you're behind and your opponent has lethal showing and it's going into their turn, any card that isn't fast or burst is a dead card.

    One other gameplay ambiguous rule thing. Play means play from hand, it's not an enters the battlefield effect. I tried to make a play with the guy who kills a dude and revives them when he comes in but the play trigger did not go off.

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    SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    I agree that the spell mana and attack token stuff are really, really good design choices.

    I feel like this game has some similarities to the stuff I really enjoyed about Gwent (the in-game version), namely that the big decisions are how much to commit. It's got a similar feeling of weighing whether you should lock in what you've got or go for more.

    It's why I'm very interested in the turn structure, because whenever you do a thing, you have to consider that maybe your opponent will just go "okay" and then you won't get a chance to do more things.

    It's a much "chunkier" game than Magic, imo, where the shape of each turn is much more dependent on that back-and-forth than on a framework with different phases and stuff.

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    gigawatt666gigawatt666 Registered User regular
    trying the Yas stun deck, but I dunno, im using Nox as the 2nd part but I dont think its working. thinking bubble with Demacia for a little more control

    BattleNet i.d. : gigawatt666#11111
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    I agree that the spell mana and attack token stuff are really, really good design choices.

    I feel like this game has some similarities to the stuff I really enjoyed about Gwent (the in-game version), namely that the big decisions are how much to commit. It's got a similar feeling of weighing whether you should lock in what you've got or go for more.

    It's why I'm very interested in the turn structure, because whenever you do a thing, you have to consider that maybe your opponent will just go "okay" and then you won't get a chance to do more things.

    It's a much "chunkier" game than Magic, imo, where the shape of each turn is much more dependent on that back-and-forth than on a framework with different phases and stuff.

    I like the lack of summon sickness along with the back-and-forth mechanic means you can really feel the decision you make when you have the attack token of "Do I summon more or attack with what I have so they can't react before I attack?".

    shryke on
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    credeikicredeiki Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    I agree that the spell mana and attack token stuff are really, really good design choices.

    I feel like this game has some similarities to the stuff I really enjoyed about Gwent (the in-game version), namely that the big decisions are how much to commit. It's got a similar feeling of weighing whether you should lock in what you've got or go for more.

    It's why I'm very interested in the turn structure, because whenever you do a thing, you have to consider that maybe your opponent will just go "okay" and then you won't get a chance to do more things.

    It's a much "chunkier" game than Magic, imo, where the shape of each turn is much more dependent on that back-and-forth than on a framework with different phases and stuff.

    I haven't played any card games other than hearthstone, really, but I love the decision point of 'should I play more things on my turn or should I just attack and deny them the ability to play more things?' It makes most turns feel meaningful and interesting.

    Steam, LoL: credeiki
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    jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    So my first expedition was a giant success.

    First deck was green-red spider-aggro. (Elise/Draven/Kalista as champs.) Got 6 victories with a 1 loss in mid and in the final fight.
    Second deck was white-green aggro. (lucian x2/garren as champs) with straight 7-0.

    I'm surprised how few played 1 drops. Some skipped the 2 drops too, which was way too slow against my aggro decks.

    OW8p7CR.png

    Time to roll out a next expedition with my winnings.

    Ww8FAMg.jpg
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    RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Free.drafts after paying for a few. That'sawesome

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    I tied a game yesterday! I wasn't aware it was possible. So he has 7 health left, a bunch of spiderlings, and the 0/3 that deals 1 damage to an enemy nexus whenever another creature dies. I have 1 health, Darius, and a few other bodies, but I just swing with Darius, because even with his best blocker, 10-3 = 7, and if he has a combat trick to buff, it doesn't matter if I swing with the rest of the team since they don't have overpower. So he blocks with the wall at first but changes his mind to the spiderling. I trample in for damage, but his death trigger still goes off, and I die right after him. I got 25 less exp.

    I mean, I am of the opinion that he should have just died because how can triggers occur when you're already DEAD but whatever.

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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    I played a ton more and am liking it more. It's more meaty than I first felt as I got used to the wonkiness and I'm liking the decision making. It makes you feel like you did a good job when you win and, at the very least, hides the RNG a bit better.

    I feel I understand a lot more of the game, but the combat phases still feel a bit confusing due to the 3 spell types. I had an opponent play the spell that kills their minion and draws two, but they did it during combat, so like how in Magic where you can block and then sac, my minion dealt no damage to his Nexus?

    That's the bit I really need to read up on / find something to explain, when combat tricks can be played in combat. Slow spells seem to be only pre-combat, but....

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Once something is blocked it stays blocked even if the blocker is removed. Trample/Overwhelming counters that by dealing the excess damage, which is all of it since it's being blocked for 0, so you can do stuff like use removal on Trendamere's blocker for full damage.

    Combat is fast and burst spells only. Fast spells go on a stack that resolves as the first step of the actual combat and burst spells ignore the stack and resolve instantly.

    Yilias on
    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    I guess I need to see if there's a button press that finalizes blocks or attacks, then, to know when to do it. Like in Magic, I click block, then do actions, etc.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I found there's some weird interactions with ... Challenger? Whatever the keyword is that let's you pick your blocker if you are attacking. I had some really weird non-obvious behaviour with that and some spells yesterday.

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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I found there's some weird interactions with ... Challenger? Whatever the keyword is that let's you pick your blocker if you are attacking. I had some really weird non-obvious behaviour with that and some spells yesterday.

    What happened? Extremely curious.

    I was using it defensively to try and brutalize the elusive decks that were plentiful on Friday, but by Sunday people had moved to other strategies.

    XBL: Bizazedo
    PSN: Bizazedo
    CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    I found there's some weird interactions with ... Challenger? Whatever the keyword is that let's you pick your blocker if you are attacking. I had some really weird non-obvious behaviour with that and some spells yesterday.

    What happened? Extremely curious.

    I was using it defensively to try and brutalize the elusive decks that were plentiful on Friday, but by Sunday people had moved to other strategies.

    Trying to remember them all, but one I vaguely recall involved that "Make these two people duel" spell and then Challenger just ... didn't do anything.

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Challenger just lets the attacking player assign the blocker during combat phase.

    If you're talking about the card Single Combat it makes two guys attack each other, be it before/after combat or during the combat phase stack resolution.

    There's no interaction between the two.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    I guess I need to see if there's a button press that finalizes blocks or attacks, then, to know when to do it. Like in Magic, I click block, then do actions, etc.
    The Button pretty much always says, "I am good with everything resolving," and then if you've done anything on your turn before pressing it (played a spell or a unit, declared attackers or blockers) your opponent then gets a turn. At which point if they do anything before pressing the button, it goes back to you. Basically, any time nothing happens between two button presses (yours and the opponent's), everything gets resolved.

    For combat specifically, this means that when you declare blockers, you have to* play any fast or burst spells on that same turn, because if your opponent just presses The Button after you declare blockers, then combat resolves (because you will have both pressed The Button without the current state of things changing in between presses).

    It's one of the neater things about the design, I think, because you can't hold stuff back until the last second. You have to consider whether you'd be okay with things as-is if your opponent decides to not do anything.


    * I mean, you don't have to, but you won't get to if your opponent just hits The Button after you.

    Surfpossum on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    Challenger just lets the attacking player assign the blocker during combat phase.

    If you're talking about the card Single Combat it makes two guys attack each other, be it before/after combat or during the combat phase stack resolution.

    There's no interaction between the two.

    It didn't seem to let me use the ability during a combat containing other units where that spell had been cast.

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Were you the defending player? Challenger only works when you're the attacker.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    This might not be relevant but I want to also note that Single Combat says the units "strike" each other, not attack.

    Do you remember if Single Combat was played before or during combat? Because if it was played during combat, I think any time it could have been played would be after attackers were declared, at which point it's too late to use Challenger (since you drag their blocker out when you declare your attackers, if I'm remembering things right).

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    SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    I got a 7 win expedition deck yesterday.

    If you can get Ashe as a champion and build a deck around freezing enemies, that's pretty freakin' powerful and you'll have late game inevitability.

    Even better if you can manage to get the 3/3 ally that freezes the opponent's highest power unit every round. Or the wolf that kills things that have 0 power.

    Steam: Spawnbroker
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Creatures and slow spells are sorceries, fast spells are instant, and burst are basically split second.

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    SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Creatures and slow spells are sorceries, fast spells are instant, and burst are basically split second.

    Important thing to note about Burst spells is not only can your opponent not respond, but they don't pass priority.

    Fun bit of trivia: If a creature has a Play effect, is it fast or burst?

    Answer:
    It depends! If the creature buffs another creature or bounces an ally, it's Burst. If the play effect deals damage or stuns an enemy unit, it's Fast. Attack effects seem to work similarly.

    In general, I've found that if you're affecting allied units, it's always burst. If you're affecting enemy units, it's almost always fast.

    Spawnbroker on
    Steam: Spawnbroker
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    For combat specifically, this means that when you declare blockers, you have to* play any fast or burst spells on that same turn, because if your opponent just presses The Button after you declare blockers, then combat resolves (because you will have both pressed The Button without the current state of things changing in between presses).

    So if I'm attacking, declare attackers, immediately cast spells if I want to use them because there's no guarantee the blocker will, and if he does, then I can react further....that's basically how I was doing it after a certain point....

    If I have a challenger and I force a blocker, but I have 3 other attackers, the defender can assign further blocks. If the opponent DOES assign blocks, does it then go back to me to allow a spell?

    XBL: Bizazedo
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    Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    For combat specifically, this means that when you declare blockers, you have to* play any fast or burst spells on that same turn, because if your opponent just presses The Button after you declare blockers, then combat resolves (because you will have both pressed The Button without the current state of things changing in between presses).

    So if I'm attacking, declare attackers, immediately cast spells if I want to use them because there's no guarantee the blocker will, and if he does, then I can react further....that's basically how I was doing it after a certain point....

    If I have a challenger and I force a blocker, but I have 3 other attackers, the defender can assign further blocks. If the opponent DOES assign blocks, does it then go back to me to allow a spell?

    Yes. If they blocked, then you have a shot to play combat tricks

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    After the defending player assigns blockers the attacking player has a priority opportunity to play spells, and is probably also the timing that you would want to do so for combat tricks.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Yilias wrote: »
    After the defending player assigns blockers the attacking player has a priority opportunity to play spells, and is probably also the timing that you would want to do so for combat tricks.

    Not necessarily! If the defending player doesn't do anything and skips blockers, you pass straight to combat damage. I missed lethal a couple times over the weekend due to not being able to buff my units because of this.

    Spawnbroker on
    Steam: Spawnbroker
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    This might not be relevant but I want to also note that Single Combat says the units "strike" each other, not attack.

    Do you remember if Single Combat was played before or during combat? Because if it was played during combat, I think any time it could have been played would be after attackers were declared, at which point it's too late to use Challenger (since you drag their blocker out when you declare your attackers, if I'm remembering things right).

    That might well be it. I'm pretty certain it wasn't a bug or anything and more just a slightly unclear interaction between when spells are cast and all that. Maybe I missed the window for declaring that guy as a blocker and using challenger or something? Hard to remember at this point. There were definitely a few times where I felt like I should be able to use Challenger and it just didn't when certain kinds of spells were involved in combat, but that might have just been me missing a turn order or something.

    I understand the necessity of pretty tight timers on each phase to make the game not drag out forever but it also does make it a bit harder to learn the nuances of the game sometimes because I found myself running out of time whenever I had to stop and go "Wait, hold on, what's the order here?". That will at least clear up with time.

    shryke on
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    For combat specifically, this means that when you declare blockers, you have to* play any fast or burst spells on that same turn, because if your opponent just presses The Button after you declare blockers, then combat resolves (because you will have both pressed The Button without the current state of things changing in between presses).

    So if I'm attacking, declare attackers, immediately cast spells if I want to use them because there's no guarantee the blocker will, and if he does, then I can react further....that's basically how I was doing it after a certain point....

    If I have a challenger and I force a blocker, but I have 3 other attackers, the defender can assign further blocks. If the opponent DOES assign blocks, does it then go back to me to allow a spell?

    If they assign blocks you are allowed to respond. Basically, unless it is fast or burst, doing ANYTHING counts as "your move" and if your opponent's response to your move is nothing, then you have no opportunity to respond. Unlike in Magic, everything is a response. There aren't special out of priority events like "declare blockers" or "declare attackers" after which each player gets additional responses to.

    It is very strictly your turn my turn and passing your turn is well, your turn. If the game doesn't change after a turn, it moves right along.

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    ED!ED! Registered User regular
    I would suggest people who are having trouble following the turns and getting surprised by not having priority given back to you, to turn off autoresolve turn. This will make it explicit what you can and can not do as the game won't move forward until you tell it to when YOU have priority (even if there isn't anything you can do).

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
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    akajaybayakajaybay Registered User regular
    I wish the collection UI would surface things that are new to the collection. When you get rewards as soon as you click the screen clears and you can't inspect the cards in the initil reward screen either.

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    IvelliusIvellius Registered User regular
    Important thing to note about Burst spells is not only can your opponent not respond, but they don't pass priority.

    Fun bit of trivia: If a creature has a Play effect, is it fast or burst?

    Answer:
    It depends! If the creature buffs another creature or bounces an ally, it's Burst. If the play effect deals damage or stuns an enemy unit, it's Fast. Attack effects seem to work similarly.

    In general, I've found that if you're affecting allied units, it's always burst. If you're affecting enemy units, it's almost always fast.

    This thread has been useful for helping me realize some of the things that have been confusing me.

    But yeah, figuring out some of the interactions hasn't always been clear.

    Me elsewhere:
    Steam, various fora: Ivellius
    League of Legends: Doctor Ivellius
    Twitch, probably another place or two I forget: LPIvellius
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    i like it when cards say their effect happens when they're 'summoned' because your brain immediately goes mmm i'm gonna do some bullshit with reviving this

    liEt3nH.png
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Not necessarily! If the defending player doesn't do anything and skips blockers, you pass straight to combat damage. I missed lethal a couple times over the weekend due to not being able to buff my units because of this.
    I did as well. I was accustomed to the "Oh you didn't block? Cool, eat shit via this combat trick" play pattern.

    And this game doesn't have that.

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    ED!ED! Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Not necessarily! If the defending player doesn't do anything and skips blockers, you pass straight to combat damage. I missed lethal a couple times over the weekend due to not being able to buff my units because of this.
    I did as well. I was accustomed to the "Oh you didn't block? Cool, eat shit via this combat trick" play pattern.

    And this game doesn't have that.

    I actually like the way this game does that. It forces you to either commit your offense or defense or chance waiting for a move from your opponent. I definitely lost a ton of games in the beginning waiting for my chance to "quick respond" with a Burst buff, not realizing I needed priority to do so.

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
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    PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    I’ve been mulling it over, and I think a way of describing combat is that you’re basically taking a “Slow” rulebook action to start a combat and declare attackers and cast Fast/Burst spells.

    Your opponent has two things they can do to pass priority back to you.
    -The “fast” action of declaring blockers
    -Casting a Fast spell.

    Casting Burst spells doesn’t count as a action, and so doesn’t pass priority.

    If they do neither, the slow action of attacking resolves.

    PMAvers on
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    I actually like the way this game does that. It forces you to either commit your offense or defense or chance waiting for a move from your opponent. I definitely lost a ton of games in the beginning waiting for my chance to "quick respond" with a Burst buff, not realizing I needed priority to do so.

    It's not a dealbreaker to me, it's just something that took me longer than I'd admit to normally to figure out.

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    RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    I'm liking this the more i play. Expeditions are tons of fun and I'm curious about making a janky deck now.

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