one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have.
What trait could any female character have that a male couldn't outside giving birth?
Well that's the thing. We've gone from having girls as objects to rescue. To having girls be indenticle to the guys in our games without bothering to see what's inbetween.
It's one of the reasons I really like Dreamfall because Zoe Castille is most definitely a girl. You're always very aware of this. Guys will flirt with her, or they'll intimidate her if they think they can get away with it. People will be lewd or people will be obsequious as they only are to pretty girls. She'll fall for someone, she'll hate someone. The interactions within the world make her a girl.
It's not just in adventure games you can get this going on though. Both Half-Life 2 and Max Payne do awesome jobs of breaking out from what could have been mere cookie cutter generic games and bringing the characters out. In Max Payne you lose a wife and child. Would that have been different if Max was a girl? Is the bond between a mother and her child different from a father?
It's a problem that both male and female characters face as games try and grow up, and progess beyond just killing things.
Emphasis mine.
The problem here isn't one of gender definition - what you're describing for Zoe is that she is in fact a person, not that she is a girl. The same kind of characterization applause can be showered on Kratos, albeit in a more limited way (especially in an action game) because we actually become intimately familiar with his motivations and the philosophy that drives him as a character. The same can be said for Maximillian Roivas (or any of the Roivas' and most of the people in ED, truth be told), Darth Revan in Sith Lords, on and on. The important thing here is that they are defined as people, not as men or women.
I know I always accuse you of missing things, sorry. Except my point was that even that basic interaction that is common in male characters, is so rare in female characters. I mean I really have a hard time of thinking of playable female characters that have romance plots in games.
That said, though, we have to consider the context in which we are working. You can't expect the same depth of characterization for Samus because she is defined in the fact that she is a bounty hunter - she goes out, she kicks ass, and she is as professional as possible in doing so. It would be different if she were interacting with other people a lot, but she's not - the whole point of the Metroid series is the sense of solitude and loneliness you draw from it, of being one person in an ocean of hostile forces and an uncaring universe. That doesn't afford itself the same depth of characterization that you're going to get from a game with a different sort of narrative, much as Gordon Freeman will forever be defined by the person playing him.
You have to pick and choose when it comes to saying where lots of characterization is appropriate. In general, sure, but you can't expect it everywhere because it wouldn't make sense.
Absolutely. And as you've said before this leads into a different issue but the relative rarity of female characters is just a massively missed oppertunity. If you want to get to the point where you have as many male gamers in your audiance as you have female gamers then you really need to move on from what in a lot of cases is designing female characters specifically for male audiances (do I need to bring out the playboy spreads for anyone?).
I don't understand what you mean when you say that character interaction - that development - is more rare in female characters than in males. Could you provide some specific examples? Because notable female leads have just as good - or better - a proportion of well-developed characters than do male leads, at least from what I can tell. This isn't a matter of sheer numbers I'm talking about, it's one of proportions.
Wait, you want romance?
That's another problem altogether - we have so few believable romances in videogames anyway I think that's hard to apply to one gender of playable characters.
Has Eirika from Fire Emblem Sacred Stones been mentioned yet?
She's not a support character (more of the frontline fighter type) and the first healer you meet in the game is male, so that game should count for something.
Yes! I was about to say something to his affect. THANK YOU.
I don't understand what you mean when you say that character interaction - that development - is more rare in female characters than in males. Could you provide some specific examples? Because notable female leads have just as good - or better - a proportion of well-developed characters than do male leads, at least from what I can tell. This isn't a matter of sheer numbers I'm talking about, it's one of proportions.
Wait, you want romance?
That's another problem altogether - we have so few believable romances in videogames anyway I think that's hard to apply to one gender of playable characters.
Because honestly, Zoe is the only example I can really think of when we're talking about female protagonists. I mean how many games where you play a specific female character and you go nail a guy can you think off? I mean you get to choose to go on a date in The Longest Journey I think, I guess that's close, except it's with your friend. Flip the question around to male characters and I could give you a list as long as my arm. Chances are, if you play a girl in a game you don't get to do anything with a guy. Hence the "all girls in games are just guys in dresses", because they so rarely seem interested in these things.
Do I want romance? Good question. I certainly think it's something that's chronically underdone in games. Cloud and Aeris? (I totally cried). The Nameless one and Annah (I totally blushed when she kissed). Max Payne and Mona Sax (I played through the game again to get the good ending). Link and Marin (OMG how harsh was that ending). Gordon Freeman and Alyx (Everyone knows that if something happens to her in Episode 2, they'd get upset because there's something there, even if it's just for 6 hours in a silly fantasy world). Yeah, I want romance. Because I think all the games I just mentioned are made a hell of a lot better by this inclusion. I want to see Nariko get a decent romance plot in Heavenly Sword. (And then I want to see him killed so I can get fucking furious on the final boss - of course it won't happen, you'll have your uncle taken away or something ala BG&E, because at the end of the day gamers are male and doing stuff like that would make them feel weird. Maybe they'll throw in a lesbian subplot.)
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
Rhapsody's protagonist Cornet was... what's the word. Romantically obsessed?
The bigger obstacle here is that you can set a dangerous precedent when it comes to characterizing female characters with romance. The proportion I was talking about, by the way, had absolutely nothing to do with romance, as in that case I have to agree - but I play Harvest Moon like a lunatic, too.
The thing about a strong female lead having a romance plot is that it...actually there's no particular problem in there that doesn't exist for males, as both of them have a tendency to turn into "damsel/dude in distress" plots, which nobody can take particularly seriously unless it's something like Jade in Beyond Good and Evil. This is kind of tangential, but I find familial motivations for rescue more compelling.
But that's another matter altogether. Yeah, we need more compelling romance, but decent romance doesn't exist for either gender just yet. I can think of only a few that actually affected me.
Oh, don't get me started about my girlfriend and the Revan/Carth thing, especially the removed content. THAT was good.
I would choose bigger games for more research to pull off of personally.
Maybe Pokemon for how the manual suggests you play as your own sex and how GTA: Vice City and San Andreas treat both sexes. That paper writes it's fucking self. Pardon my French.
Harvest Moon might be okay but with the other games you may find testimonies by rl genders which would make for a more interesting paper imo. since its a research project and not an editorial.
I would choose bigger games for more research to pull off of personally.
Maybe Pokemon for how the manual suggests you play as your own sex and how GTA: Vice City and San Andreas treat both sexes. That paper writes it's fucking self. Pardon my French.
Harvest Moon might be okay but with the other games you may find testimonies by rl genders which would make for a more interesting paper imo. since its a research project and not an editorial.
Has Eirika from Fire Emblem Sacred Stones been mentioned yet?
She's not a support character (more of the frontline fighter type) and the first healer you meet in the game is male, so that game should count for something.
Yes! I was about to say something to his affect. THANK YOU.
This game is like crack to me. DAMMIT.
In all truth, this game has complete gender equality. It's not like every woman fights and all the men are defensive (or vice versa). There's a healthy realistic balance. Eirika is the main character who fights with a rapier, Neimi is the first bow person you meet, Natasha is the second healer (the first is male), Lute is arguably the best offensive magic user in the whole game. While this game has it's fair share of important females. It's not trying to pave a way for girl power or anything like that. Your team isn't made up of two divisions. (male and female) It's made up of people, fighting for a common cause. Great game. :^:
I think it safe to say that the topic has grown FAR BEYOND his petty research paper! So far beyond. So far.
But more seriously, there's documented stuff out there about gender roles in games, most of it sucks and is outdated, and he needs to do his OWN homework.
I think it safe to say that the topic has grown FAR BEYOND his petty research paper! So far beyond. So far.
But more seriously, there's documented stuff out there about gender roles in games, most of it sucks and is outdated, and he needs to do his OWN homework.
:P
so glad I'm not in college anymore and I can just play the things instead. for the record I always pick the chick when it tries to imply you shouldn't.
Fun fact: Elizabeth Barrett Browning, the writer of the 'let me count the ways' poem, named that collection "Sonnets from the Portuguese," disguising it as a translation of poems instead of original works written by her.
She did this because poetry is traditionally regarded as a male profession, and girls weren't really supposed to do any sort of writing.
We (portuguese) did have good sonnets :P
This is totally not about the thread. Yeah, I'll leave
Yeah. Square and their obvious gender stereotypes right?
You mean like how every Final Fantasy since IV has had exactly three main female characters, a happy/perky one, a serious/stern one, and an innocent/naive/caring one?
Yeah. Square and their obvious gender stereotypes right?
You mean like how every Final Fantasy since IV has had exactly three main female characters, a happy/perky one, a serious/stern one, and an innocent/naive/caring one?
Oh shit, that's Front Mission 4 too. Man, Squeenix is not terribly creative.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Yeah. Square and their obvious gender stereotypes right?
You mean like how every Final Fantasy since IV has had exactly three main female characters, a happy/perky one, a serious/stern one, and an innocent/naive/caring one?
And a broody angsty male, a pretty boy/serious male and a hardened grizzled war veteren? They have horrible male stereotypes too.
Except Tidus didn't fit into that really. He was a naive/innocent/caring boy. He didn't even angst that much.
The point is that they did it in at least one major game as a main character.
I only included Lulu to round out the answer, because the dude on the throne is the classic broody angst stereotype they always do, so not very interesting and I don't really care about that comparison. Tidus is the character I am talking about, because he is breaking the mold just like the main character of 13 looks like she will.
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(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
If anyone broke out of the mold of angsty lead men, it was Zidane.
Tidus and Vaan were really just fitting into that mold instead.
well Tidus invented the Non-Existing hero.
That was one of the other nice things about SRW. I didn't have to play as Cloud/Tidus/Ryusei/whatever emo-douchebag stereotype. I could play as a compulsive gambler instead. 8-)
Yeah. Square and their obvious gender stereotypes right?
You mean like how every Final Fantasy since IV has had exactly three main female characters, a happy/perky one, a serious/stern one, and an innocent/naive/caring one?
And a broody angsty male, a pretty boy/serious male and a hardened grizzled war veteren? They have horrible male stereotypes too.
Except Tidus didn't fit into that really. He was a naive/innocent/caring boy. He didn't even angst that much.
The point is that they did it in at least one major game as a main character.
I only included Lulu to round out the answer, because the dude on the throne is the classic broody angst stereotype they always do, so not very interesting and I don't really care about that comparison. Tidus is the character I am talking about, because he is breaking the mold just like the main character of 13 looks like she will.
Dark Throne guy doesn't look original, but he does look interesting.
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I know I always accuse you of missing things, sorry.
Absolutely. And as you've said before this leads into a different issue but the relative rarity of female characters is just a massively missed oppertunity. If you want to get to the point where you have as many male gamers in your audiance as you have female gamers then you really need to move on from what in a lot of cases is designing female characters specifically for male audiances (do I need to bring out the playboy spreads for anyone?).
Wait, you want romance?
That's another problem altogether - we have so few believable romances in videogames anyway I think that's hard to apply to one gender of playable characters.
Boys are the dark mysterious ones.
Girls are the bright caring ones.
And they all carry weapons, thats how they emote, through their weapons. DUH.
She doesn't look bright or caring more like I'll kick your ass if you look at me the wrong way.
Pretty much all non-human, anthropomorphic mascots are nude ... except Glover. He's a glove.
They look like they both have too much time on their hands.
Hey you! Get up and go do something with that sword.
He does.
Yes! I was about to say something to his affect. THANK YOU.
This game is like crack to me. DAMMIT.
Because honestly, Zoe is the only example I can really think of when we're talking about female protagonists. I mean how many games where you play a specific female character and you go nail a guy can you think off? I mean you get to choose to go on a date in The Longest Journey I think, I guess that's close, except it's with your friend. Flip the question around to male characters and I could give you a list as long as my arm. Chances are, if you play a girl in a game you don't get to do anything with a guy. Hence the "all girls in games are just guys in dresses", because they so rarely seem interested in these things.
Do I want romance? Good question. I certainly think it's something that's chronically underdone in games. Cloud and Aeris? (I totally cried). The Nameless one and Annah (I totally blushed when she kissed). Max Payne and Mona Sax (I played through the game again to get the good ending). Link and Marin (OMG how harsh was that ending). Gordon Freeman and Alyx (Everyone knows that if something happens to her in Episode 2, they'd get upset because there's something there, even if it's just for 6 hours in a silly fantasy world). Yeah, I want romance. Because I think all the games I just mentioned are made a hell of a lot better by this inclusion. I want to see Nariko get a decent romance plot in Heavenly Sword. (And then I want to see him killed so I can get fucking furious on the final boss - of course it won't happen, you'll have your uncle taken away or something ala BG&E, because at the end of the day gamers are male and doing stuff like that would make them feel weird. Maybe they'll throw in a lesbian subplot.)
The thing about a strong female lead having a romance plot is that it...actually there's no particular problem in there that doesn't exist for males, as both of them have a tendency to turn into "damsel/dude in distress" plots, which nobody can take particularly seriously unless it's something like Jade in Beyond Good and Evil. This is kind of tangential, but I find familial motivations for rescue more compelling.
But that's another matter altogether. Yeah, we need more compelling romance, but decent romance doesn't exist for either gender just yet. I can think of only a few that actually affected me.
Oh, don't get me started about my girlfriend and the Revan/Carth thing, especially the removed content. THAT was good.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
FFIX's wasn't bad either.
Maybe Pokemon for how the manual suggests you play as your own sex and how GTA: Vice City and San Andreas treat both sexes. That paper writes it's fucking self. Pardon my French.
Harvest Moon might be okay but with the other games you may find testimonies by rl genders which would make for a more interesting paper imo. since its a research project and not an editorial.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
Hey shut up. :P
In all truth, this game has complete gender equality. It's not like every woman fights and all the men are defensive (or vice versa). There's a healthy realistic balance. Eirika is the main character who fights with a rapier, Neimi is the first bow person you meet, Natasha is the second healer (the first is male), Lute is arguably the best offensive magic user in the whole game. While this game has it's fair share of important females. It's not trying to pave a way for girl power or anything like that. Your team isn't made up of two divisions. (male and female) It's made up of people, fighting for a common cause. Great game. :^:
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
But more seriously, there's documented stuff out there about gender roles in games, most of it sucks and is outdated, and he needs to do his OWN homework.
:P
so glad I'm not in college anymore and I can just play the things instead. for the record I always pick the chick when it tries to imply you shouldn't.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
This is totally not about the thread. Yeah, I'll leave
Pokémon HGSS: 1205 1613 4041
What about the giant robots that have boobs for some bizarre reason?
Until you note that in most anime the female pilots' mechs have pointless robo-breasts or are painted pink.
EDIT: Damn! Beat'd
Zone of the Enders solves this!
While some robots do have breasts for some reason, EVERY robot has a huge cock
pit.
Yeah. Square and their obvious gender stereotypes right?
Anyway the main lead of ff13 looks like she is in some kind of zen battle trance rather than looking at you kindly.
How does that make them inferior machines? Angelg has breasts and a skirt but Lamia still lays down some shit like 9,000 damage out to like 9 squares.
Edit: Also Miriya's Valkyries never have breasts (although her daughter's Valkyrie does for some reason).
You mean like how every Final Fantasy since IV has had exactly three main female characters, a happy/perky one, a serious/stern one, and an innocent/naive/caring one?
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I'll give you that.
Don't forget Excellen's Weissy and it's later badass batwinged upgrade, Rein Weissy. No robo boobs there!
...though Excellen does get kidnapped and brainwashed on more than one occassion.
Oh shit, that's Front Mission 4 too. Man, Squeenix is not terribly creative.
And a broody angsty male, a pretty boy/serious male and a hardened grizzled war veteren? They have horrible male stereotypes too.
Except Tidus didn't fit into that really. He was a naive/innocent/caring boy. He didn't even angst that much.
The point is that they did it in at least one major game as a main character.
I only included Lulu to round out the answer, because the dude on the throne is the classic broody angst stereotype they always do, so not very interesting and I don't really care about that comparison. Tidus is the character I am talking about, because he is breaking the mold just like the main character of 13 looks like she will.
Tidus and Vaan were really just fitting into that mold instead.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I can't talk about them, I haven't played their games. My gf really likes Zidane, and from the way she talks about him I probably would too.
well Tidus invented the Non-Existing hero.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
That was one of the other nice things about SRW. I didn't have to play as Cloud/Tidus/Ryusei/whatever emo-douchebag stereotype. I could play as a compulsive gambler instead. 8-)
Dark Throne guy doesn't look original, but he does look interesting.
I think this is an important concept.