I equate the Kobayashi Maru to the Prime Directive—an interesting concept mangled by unimaginative storytelling, but has the potential to be compelling.
Nog beating the test because he has a different perspective than other Starfleet officers is great. It informs the character, that his choice not to seek profit is not a rejection of his Ferengi identity, and plays to one of the core themes of the franchise, that diversity is strength.
Kelvin!Kirk cheating is bad, since it’s just mimicking what came before without understanding why it worked. Which is a hallmark of Abrams and Snyder, now that I think about it.
I originally thought the ST09 scene was supposed to illustrate a different kind of Kirk because his life had been shaped by the death of his father and this new Kirk was more reckless and impulsive and needed to grow.
I somewhat suspect, as time has gone on, that the filmmakers simply thought this was how it would go down and the silliness of the whole scene was not deliberate.
Character growth in Abrams movies always turns out to have been unintentional in retrospect :sad:
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited December 2019
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
Anyway, one of the things the books mention is that Kirk, in fact, did the Kobyashi Maru the "real" way first, was annoyed at the confines of the test and cheated it the next time he did it. Though the book doesn't explain why they'd let anyone do the test more than once, since the surprise of there being no way to win it couldn't work twice. Maybe the faculty took it as a stress test - we think there's no way to win this scenario, but this bright young officer thinks he has found a way to beat it, let's make sure we programmed it right.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I was late to the party on the movies so my first exposure to the Kabayashi Maru was a comic someone had made using screenshots from a Voyager game where the KM scenario required you to climb down a ladder in a Source engine game. That's the first thing that pops into my mind when someone mentions it.
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
Anyway, one of the things the books mention is that Kirk, in fact, did the Kobyashi Maru the "real" way first, was annoyed at the confines of the test and cheated it the next time he did it. Though the book doesn't explain why they'd let anyone do the test more than once, since the surprise of there being no way to win it couldn't work twice. Maybe the faculty took it as a stress test - we think there's no way to win this scenario, but this bright young officer thinks he has found a way to beat it, let's make sure we programmed it right.
I was under the impression that the point of the KM scenario was drilling it into a captain's head that there are such things as no-win scenarios out there, and when you run into one the best you can hope for is to decide how much you lose.
To that end, there shouldn't be a limit on how many times a person can take the test until they learn the lesson. Many potential captains probably realize the point quickly enough, you'd imagine most go through the scenario a half dozen times trying different tactics before realizing that there's no possible win, but it takes a special type of person to hack in and rewrite the parameters of the test so that it can be won. Personally, I wouldn't want to know if the captain of my ship had tried it once and said "Oh, yeah, no win scenario. Got it. Now, where are the keys to my ship?". I'd much rather have the captain that drove themselves just short of insanity trying every conceivable option before admitting they couldn't do anything and moving on.
I seem to remember a TNG episode with Troi trying to work through a similarly unwinnable situation as part of her trying to get a rank until she realized that being in command meant making decisions that result in people dying, but I don't remember if they tied that in with the KM scenario or not.
Was there actually a collection of short stories about each main character's KM exam or am I misremembering secondhand hearsay?
I don't know if there was a collection of short stories, but it definitely came up in the fiction.
I remember Scotty determining there was a flaw in the simulation that would let him beam or fire torpedoes through a weak point in the Klingon shields to let him blow them up with minimal risk to the ship. Something that wouldn't work in reality but got him points for creative thinking.
Pretty sure every fanfic character had their own similarly ingenious way of beating the unbeatable test.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
Anyway, one of the things the books mention is that Kirk, in fact, did the Kobyashi Maru the "real" way first, was annoyed at the confines of the test and cheated it the next time he did it. Though the book doesn't explain why they'd let anyone do the test more than once, since the surprise of there being no way to win it couldn't work twice. Maybe the faculty took it as a stress test - we think there's no way to win this scenario, but this bright young officer thinks he has found a way to beat it, let's make sure we programmed it right.
I was under the impression that the point of the KM scenario was drilling it into a captain's head that there are such things as no-win scenarios out there, and when you run into one the best you can hope for is to decide how much you lose.
To that end, there shouldn't be a limit on how many times a person can take the test until they learn the lesson. Many potential captains probably realize the point quickly enough, you'd imagine most go through the scenario a half dozen times trying different tactics before realizing that there's no possible win, but it takes a special type of person to hack in and rewrite the parameters of the test so that it can be won. Personally, I wouldn't want to know if the captain of my ship had tried it once and said "Oh, yeah, no win scenario. Got it. Now, where are the keys to my ship?". I'd much rather have the captain that drove themselves just short of insanity trying every conceivable option before admitting they couldn't do anything and moving on.
I seem to remember a TNG episode with Troi trying to work through a similarly unwinnable situation as part of her trying to get a rank until she realized that being in command meant making decisions that result in people dying, but I don't remember if they tied that in with the KM scenario or not.
I'd buy this explanation if Kirk hadn't immediately announced to Savik that the KM was a no win scenario as soon as she finished it the first time.
Also yeah Troi took the command test but that one made more sense to me as a test of command, since there WAS a solution to it, you just had to realize that death is part command.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I wonder if they give that test to anyone looking to be a first officer, or if it’s locked to people actually putting on commander.
Because we see a lot of Lieutenant Commander first officers—I think that might be more common than Commander, as a matter of fact—and they should definitely know that you can’t always save everyone.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
Was there actually a collection of short stories about each main character's KM exam or am I misremembering secondhand hearsay?
I don't know if there was a collection of short stories, but it definitely came up in the fiction.
I remember Scotty determining there was a flaw in the simulation that would let him beam or fire torpedoes through a weak point in the Klingon shields to let him blow them up with minimal risk to the ship. Something that wouldn't work in reality but got him points for creative thinking.
Pretty sure every fanfic character had their own similarly ingenious way of beating the unbeatable test.
That's been part of the problem - it's been a long time since I've seen Wrath of Kahn but in the original context, it was a scenario that made sense. However, especially in the expanded universe, it became a high score contest with any given character 'beat' it being used to establish their badass credentials.
Troi's officer test is another good example, and also reminds me of that Russian nuclear sub accident that had a movie made about it. The sub had chemical protection gear, but no radiation protection gear, so the engineers working on the damaged reactor were fully exposed. There are situations where there is no 'save everybody' solution, but at least with your best efforts, you can lose as little as possible.
Lol this nog goes to Starfleet time travel ep has nog reading up on Earth history and trying to convince someone to look at his pad on the bell riots because this guy looks just like sisko. In retrospect a solid lead in to their time travel shenanigans
I wonder if they give that test to anyone looking to be a first officer, or if it’s locked to people actually putting on commander.
Because we see a lot of Lieutenant Commander first officers—I think that might be more common than Commander, as a matter of fact—and they should definitely know that you can’t always save everyone.
I like to believe that most of the Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders fought their way up from the bottom, starting at the red shirt ranks, so they're well acquainted with the fact that they may need to sacrifice someone eventually (having almost certainly seen several of their colleagues sacrificed over the years).
Troi though, was the ships counselor, without an official rank (IIRC). Presumably, she didn't go through the same low ranking sacrificial-schmuck job progression as most of the bridge crew before amassing enough bridge time to qualify to take the test. So, she had to have that part spelled out for her before she got her rank pips.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
This is in the film! Or like, they shot it. Scotty introduces his nephew to Kirk when he's touring Engineering. The scene and a couple others show up in the director's cut. Unfortunately I think the director's cut is only available on DVD and the Blu-Ray is just the regular theatrical version.
EDIT: they also pulled this with the director's cut of TMP, which is noticeably better than the theatrical cut but is now only available on a dead format.
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
This is in the film! Or like, they shot it. Scotty introduces his nephew to Kirk when he's touring Engineering. The scene and a couple others show up in the director's cut. Unfortunately I think the director's cut is only available on DVD and the Blu-Ray is just the regular theatrical version.
EDIT: they also pulled this with the director's cut of TMP, which is noticeably better than the theatrical cut but is now only available on a dead format.
That sucks.
I wish streaming services would let you pick which version you wanted to watch.
A character of mine took the test, failed it (of course), and took the "wrong" lesson from it - he believed that it was a personal failure, All His Fault, and that a real (potential) captain would have found a way, somehow. After his advisor took him aside and explained the real point of the test, he transferred from command track to engineering.
(And then, of course, fate conspired to put him in the big chair anyway, with a case of imposter syndrome that took him years to start getting over.)
Another, per my comments before the holiday break, took issue with how the simulation isn't an accurate representation of reality. The real universe isn't rigged, biased, or hostile; the real universe is utterly fair, impartial, and (metaphorically) will roll over and crush you without even noticing. Sometimes the cards you're dealt don't give you a win and/or survival option; she accepts this, which is arguably what the test is meant to teach. What she doesn't accept is the mechanism Starfleet uses, which is being jerked around by malign omnipotent (in the context of the sim) intelligence - a crooked dealer stacking the deck against you.
(Which is really a subset of her larger problem, which is that she's a scientist trying to make sense of a universe that runs on narrative and "make shit up as we go along", with logic and consistency somewhere near the bottom of page 3. And, to be honest, it also represents a failure on her part to grasp the difference between the priorities of an educator - who wants to "force" a teaching situation on their own time and terms, rather than taking chances on it happening randomly out in the black with real lives on the line - and a scientist, where interfering with an experiment or choosing the wrong starting point renders it useless.)
I wonder if they give that test to anyone looking to be a first officer, or if it’s locked to people actually putting on commander.
Because we see a lot of Lieutenant Commander first officers—I think that might be more common than Commander, as a matter of fact—and they should definitely know that you can’t always save everyone.
I like to believe that most of the Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders fought their way up from the bottom, starting at the red shirt ranks, so they're well acquainted with the fact that they may need to sacrifice someone eventually (having almost certainly seen several of their colleagues sacrificed over the years).
Troi though, was the ships counselor, without an official rank (IIRC). Presumably, she didn't go through the same low ranking sacrificial-schmuck job progression as most of the bridge crew before amassing enough bridge time to qualify to take the test. So, she had to have that part spelled out for her before she got her rank pips.
Troi was a Lt. Commander before the test. She had not passed the bridge officers test, if I am remembering correctly, which would allow her to take command of the bridge like Crusher does on occasion. It did end with her being promoted to Commander I think, but that was probably due to her being qualified in all the other ways as well. My interpretation has always been anyone we see in command of the bridge has passed the test (or some equivalent) but has other requirements to fill before being promoted further.
Considering the hoops I had to run through to watch Muppet Christmas Carol on Christmas with the when love is gone breakup scene, I now have the distinct sense that no one filming in the 80s/90s gave a damn what happened to their masters/negatives and there's never be anything higher res than laserdisk so why bother
Edit:
I appreciate that Bashir and Sisko do everything but look directly into the camera and say "THIS IS FUCKED UP, HUH?"
One of many DS9 episodes that are even more relevant today than when they first aired.
Kinda. I've said this before, but those episodes are fascinating because they get so much right in terms of human nature but so much wrong because they are from the 90s and thus the cultural context is completely different. If you were making the episode today you would do a swap from "homeless" to "immigrant" and need to change basically nothing else.
I take it you don't spend much time on the west coast? Some of the things being done re: homeless is atrocious, and homeless levels are at an all time high. Unlike immigrants however, homelessness isn't REALLY as big of an issue for GOP strongholds as it is for the cities, so it's not really a national issue. Follow Seattle politics for instance and it's huge.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Considering the hoops I had to run through to watch Muppet Christmas Carol on Christmas with the when love is gone breakup scene, I now have the distinct sense that no one filming in the 80s/90s gave a damn what happened to their masters/negatives and there's never be anything higher res than laserdisk so why bother
Yeah, the 80s/90s were when Hollywood really really got infected by slash-and-burn capitalism. Make the film with enough quality to make money, ship it, immediately cycle into the next thing, forget the last thing even existed and record over it for the next show. It's weird that we seem to have better-kept media materials from stuff in the 50s than the 80s and early 90s, unless it was some mega-huge cultural thing like Friends. Though all that magnetic tape media really sucked for long-term storage, which probably didn't help.
I take it you don't spend much time on the west coast? Some of the things being done re: homeless is atrocious, and homeless levels are at an all time high. Unlike immigrants however, homelessness isn't REALLY as big of an issue for GOP strongholds as it is for the cities, so it's not really a national issue. Follow Seattle politics for instance and it's huge.
Yup, it can't be allowed that something actually be done to deal with the homeless issue, it's just too perfect for the GOP to keep making it worse to fuck over those evil, evil liberal city centers while also trying to force people out of cities to dilute their voting power. Nevermind that the homeless issues are caused primarily by the rampant uncontrolled increase in housing prices, shitty wage stagnation, and lack of decent healthcare that the GOP basically builds on as a platform.
Was there actually a collection of short stories about each main character's KM exam or am I misremembering secondhand hearsay?
I don't know if there was a collection of short stories, but it definitely came up in the fiction.
I remember Scotty determining there was a flaw in the simulation that would let him beam or fire torpedoes through a weak point in the Klingon shields to let him blow them up with minimal risk to the ship. Something that wouldn't work in reality but got him points for creative thinking.
Pretty sure every fanfic character had their own similarly ingenious way of beating the unbeatable test.
Yeah, this is the terrible tie-in fiction beating this entire idea to death thing I was talking about. But such is the way of expanding universes. Everything must be beaten to death.
That said, I appreciated when they at least used it to establish character rather then just as a stupid "I'm a badass" stamp of approval. I remember the captain from New Frontier's "solution" to the test was to blow the Kobayashi Maru up, figuring it was either a trap or they couldn't be rescued and were better off dead then in captives of the Klingons or Romulans or whoever it was at that point. Which is very much a thing that captain would do.
Edit:
I appreciate that Bashir and Sisko do everything but look directly into the camera and say "THIS IS FUCKED UP, HUH?"
One of many DS9 episodes that are even more relevant today than when they first aired.
Kinda. I've said this before, but those episodes are fascinating because they get so much right in terms of human nature but so much wrong because they are from the 90s and thus the cultural context is completely different. If you were making the episode today you would do a swap from "homeless" to "immigrant" and need to change basically nothing else.
I take it you don't spend much time on the west coast? Some of the things being done re: homeless is atrocious, and homeless levels are at an all time high. Unlike immigrants however, homelessness isn't REALLY as big of an issue for GOP strongholds as it is for the cities, so it's not really a national issue. Follow Seattle politics for instance and it's huge.
I'm well aware it's still a huge problem. But it's not a problem the way it was in the 90s, which is reflected in the politics of that two-parter. Immigration was just not the issue it was then like it is now and vice versa with homelessness and crime in cities and all that.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Was there actually a collection of short stories about each main character's KM exam or am I misremembering secondhand hearsay?
There was a book called "The Kobayashi Maru" by, I think, Vonda N. McIntyre? Maybe? Where several of the supporting cast are stranded on a shuttle after an ion storm or something, and while they wait for pickup (or to die, as help is light-years away) they exchange stories of the test.
But, as I recall, most of the stories aren't really about the Kobayashi Maru itself but more what it revealed about the characters, which is as it should be, I think? Scotty outmaneuvers the simulation for a while by taking advantage of some physics nonsense that wouldn't work in the real world but that the simulation isn't programmed to account for - basically wallhacking it - but he realizes that he hates being responsible for all these life and death decisions so doesn't opt for the command track.
Chekov just loses the test and then most of his story is actually about the next test, which is a laser tag battle royale with a hundred other cadets on an abandoned space station. It's nonsense but it was a very fun segment where he wheels and deals, makes alliances, etc.
I believe Sulu had a segment too but fucked if I can remember what it was, this was 30 years ago. Anyway, Scotty was the only one who scored some kind of weird unusual result, the rest of the characters it was more just an excuse to flashback to their academy days. I remember it being a good story but then, I was ten. I still bought Popples comic books.
Considering the hoops I had to run through to watch Muppet Christmas Carol on Christmas with the when love is gone breakup scene, I now have the distinct sense that no one filming in the 80s/90s gave a damn what happened to their masters/negatives and there's never be anything higher res than laserdisk so why bother
Yeah, the 80s/90s were when Hollywood really really got infected by slash-and-burn capitalism. Make the film with enough quality to make money, ship it, immediately cycle into the next thing, forget the last thing even existed and record over it for the next show. It's weird that we seem to have better-kept media materials from stuff in the 50s than the 80s and early 90s, unless it was some mega-huge cultural thing like Friends. Though all that magnetic tape media really sucked for long-term storage, which probably didn't help.
Not really. This isn't an issue specific to one time period. There's a reason, for instance, there's a ton of what we think of as classic BBC shows that literally just don't exist anymore. Preservation of old material, especially television, was simply not a thing the industries thought about back then much if at all. Remember how many of these things even precede the idea of home media. The idea of preserving it for a rerelease was not a big thing.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Considering the hoops I had to run through to watch Muppet Christmas Carol on Christmas with the when love is gone breakup scene, I now have the distinct sense that no one filming in the 80s/90s gave a damn what happened to their masters/negatives and there's never be anything higher res than laserdisk so why bother
Yeah, the 80s/90s were when Hollywood really really got infected by slash-and-burn capitalism. Make the film with enough quality to make money, ship it, immediately cycle into the next thing, forget the last thing even existed and record over it for the next show. It's weird that we seem to have better-kept media materials from stuff in the 50s than the 80s and early 90s, unless it was some mega-huge cultural thing like Friends. Though all that magnetic tape media really sucked for long-term storage, which probably didn't help.
Not really. This isn't an issue specific to one time period. There's a reason, for instance, there's a ton of what we think of as classic BBC shows that literally just don't exist anymore. Preservation of old material, especially television, was simply not a thing the industries thought about back then much if at all. Remember how many of these things even precede the idea of home media. The idea of preserving it for a rerelease was not a big thing.
Oh yeah, I vaguely remember something about how a ton of early Doctor Who is gone forever because the BBC used the film for another shows and obliterated the material by recording over it. Must just be a television thing in general, since there's all the usual greed of Hollywood but with tighter margins. Movie studios have been allowing reshowings of older movies since forever and so they could keep making money off the same run of a film, which would explain why so much of that has been preserved.
Edit:
I appreciate that Bashir and Sisko do everything but look directly into the camera and say "THIS IS FUCKED UP, HUH?"
One of many DS9 episodes that are even more relevant today than when they first aired.
Kinda. I've said this before, but those episodes are fascinating because they get so much right in terms of human nature but so much wrong because they are from the 90s and thus the cultural context is completely different. If you were making the episode today you would do a swap from "homeless" to "immigrant" and need to change basically nothing else.
I take it you don't spend much time on the west coast? Some of the things being done re: homeless is atrocious, and homeless levels are at an all time high. Unlike immigrants however, homelessness isn't REALLY as big of an issue for GOP strongholds as it is for the cities, so it's not really a national issue. Follow Seattle politics for instance and it's huge.
I'm well aware it's still a huge problem. But it's not a problem the way it was in the 90s, which is reflected in the politics of that two-parter. Immigration was just not the issue it was then like it is now and vice versa with homelessness and crime in cities and all that.
I both agree and disagree. The solution to the problem of the 90s was mass incarceration, which in a way is exactly what the Bell Riots is depicting.
The problems the show was pointing out still exist and to a massive degree, and need to be addressed.
For instance, mental health treatment is as bad as ever.
Was there actually a collection of short stories about each main character's KM exam or am I misremembering secondhand hearsay?
There was a book called "The Kobayashi Maru" by, I think, Vonda N. McIntyre? Maybe? Where several of the supporting cast are stranded on a shuttle after an ion storm or something, and while they wait for pickup (or to die, as help is light-years away) they exchange stories of the test.
But, as I recall, most of the stories aren't really about the Kobayashi Maru itself but more what it revealed about the characters, which is as it should be, I think? Scotty outmaneuvers the simulation for a while by taking advantage of some physics nonsense that wouldn't work in the real world but that the simulation isn't programmed to account for - basically wallhacking it - but he realizes that he hates being responsible for all these life and death decisions so doesn't opt for the command track.
Chekov just loses the test and then most of his story is actually about the next test, which is a laser tag battle royale with a hundred other cadets on an abandoned space station. It's nonsense but it was a very fun segment where he wheels and deals, makes alliances, etc.
I believe Sulu had a segment too but fucked if I can remember what it was, this was 30 years ago. Anyway, Scotty was the only one who scored some kind of weird unusual result, the rest of the characters it was more just an excuse to flashback to their academy days. I remember it being a good story but then, I was ten. I still bought Popples comic books.
Sulu's dad had died like the day before or something, so he left the Maru in the Neutral Zone and went about his day. Was kind of funny in that the other cadets were all, "Are you allowed do that"?
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
This is in the film! Or like, they shot it. Scotty introduces his nephew to Kirk when he's touring Engineering. The scene and a couple others show up in the director's cut. Unfortunately I think the director's cut is only available on DVD and the Blu-Ray is just the regular theatrical version.
EDIT: they also pulled this with the director's cut of TMP, which is noticeably better than the theatrical cut but is now only available on a dead format.
That sucks.
I wish streaming services would let you pick which version you wanted to watch.
Streaming services would absolutely love to let you pick which version you wanted to watch. The issue is the rights holders.
I wonder if they give that test to anyone looking to be a first officer, or if it’s locked to people actually putting on commander.
Because we see a lot of Lieutenant Commander first officers—I think that might be more common than Commander, as a matter of fact—and they should definitely know that you can’t always save everyone.
I like to believe that most of the Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders fought their way up from the bottom, starting at the red shirt ranks, so they're well acquainted with the fact that they may need to sacrifice someone eventually (having almost certainly seen several of their colleagues sacrificed over the years).
Troi though, was the ships counselor, without an official rank (IIRC). Presumably, she didn't go through the same low ranking sacrificial-schmuck job progression as most of the bridge crew before amassing enough bridge time to qualify to take the test. So, she had to have that part spelled out for her before she got her rank pips.
That was a command test, Troi was an actual Lt.Commander, but in the science division not the command division. Meaning that she couldn't take command of the ship except in emergency conditions. You can come up through the command divisions, who are trained specifically for taking command, or take the test if you're otherwise eligible for bridge command.
As a huge nerd growing up, I read the novelization of Wrath of Khan. It did help fill out a few things the film fails to mention (like the reason Scotty brought a near-dead trainee to the bridge - it was because that was his nephew, something the film doesn't mention)
This is in the film! Or like, they shot it. Scotty introduces his nephew to Kirk when he's touring Engineering. The scene and a couple others show up in the director's cut. Unfortunately I think the director's cut is only available on DVD and the Blu-Ray is just the regular theatrical version.
EDIT: they also pulled this with the director's cut of TMP, which is noticeably better than the theatrical cut but is now only available on a dead format.
That sucks.
I wish streaming services would let you pick which version you wanted to watch.
Streaming services would absolutely love to let you pick which version you wanted to watch. The issue is the rights holders.
Yeah, from anything I've heard about how it works, the streaming services basically just have to take what they are given.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I heard an NPR interview with a dude from Netflix many years ago where he described studios doing petty, spiteful shit like sending over all their movies in obscure formats, or low resolution, or in pan-and-scan.
I mean Disney butchered their own Simpsons releases to "make them widescreen" so I guess nothing should surprise me with streaming availability anymore
I don't even know anymore what the prime directive is. Season 1 of DS9 has an episode where a fugitive arrives on the station and it turns out he's the prey in most dangerous game sort of thing on his home planet. The hunters show up and and shoot up the station, clearly at least at advanced as the federation, and then sisko says he has to turn the hunted over because of the prime directive? What?
Man, the Starship Down episode of DS9 is way better than I remember it. It reads a lot like a taut 3 act play, and does a bunch of great relationship building with the cast, like the Chief giving Worf command advice, Kira telling Sisko how she feels about him, and the great ending(s) of the technician walking into the mess hall to find Quark and the Karemma rep. arguing about deals in front of a deactivated torpedo warhead sticking through the hull, and Sisko asking Kira to go to a baseball game with him.
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
I don't even know anymore what the prime directive is. Season 1 of DS9 has an episode where a fugitive arrives on the station and it turns out he's the prey in most dangerous game sort of thing on his home planet. The hunters show up and and shoot up the station, clearly at least at advanced as the federation, and then sisko says he has to turn the hunted over because of the prime directive? What?
Sisko just didn’t want to say that there wasn’t room on the station for another non-descript alien in brown pajamas.
Edit:
I appreciate that Bashir and Sisko do everything but look directly into the camera and say "THIS IS FUCKED UP, HUH?"
One of many DS9 episodes that are even more relevant today than when they first aired.
Kinda. I've said this before, but those episodes are fascinating because they get so much right in terms of human nature but so much wrong because they are from the 90s and thus the cultural context is completely different. If you were making the episode today you would do a swap from "homeless" to "immigrant" and need to change basically nothing else.
I live in downtown Oakland and work in downtown SF.
I assure you it would not be necessary to change the targeted subgroup from the homeless and displaced working class to remain meaningful.
The only truly preposterous thing in those episodes is that they imply we'll have BART out to Marin by 2024. Who do they think will be the ones advocating for sanctuary districts? Marinites don't want mass transit to/from SF, for the same reason they'll be the ones advocating for sanctuary districts.
Considering the hoops I had to run through to watch Muppet Christmas Carol on Christmas with the when love is gone breakup scene, I now have the distinct sense that no one filming in the 80s/90s gave a damn what happened to their masters/negatives and there's never be anything higher res than laserdisk so why bother
Yeah, the 80s/90s were when Hollywood really really got infected by slash-and-burn capitalism. Make the film with enough quality to make money, ship it, immediately cycle into the next thing, forget the last thing even existed and record over it for the next show. It's weird that we seem to have better-kept media materials from stuff in the 50s than the 80s and early 90s, unless it was some mega-huge cultural thing like Friends. Though all that magnetic tape media really sucked for long-term storage, which probably didn't help.
Not really. This isn't an issue specific to one time period. There's a reason, for instance, there's a ton of what we think of as classic BBC shows that literally just don't exist anymore. Preservation of old material, especially television, was simply not a thing the industries thought about back then much if at all. Remember how many of these things even precede the idea of home media. The idea of preserving it for a rerelease was not a big thing.
Oh yeah, I vaguely remember something about how a ton of early Doctor Who is gone forever because the BBC used the film for another shows and obliterated the material by recording over it. Must just be a television thing in general, since there's all the usual greed of Hollywood but with tighter margins. Movie studios have been allowing reshowings of older movies since forever and so they could keep making money off the same run of a film, which would explain why so much of that has been preserved.
The thing is that film isn't reusable like videotape, so once you have a film master, all you can do with it is reshow it - this is why I Love Lucy, which was one of the first shows that recorded to film, became one of the first syndication darlings.
Edit: To bring this back to Trek, being mastered on film is why both TOS (not too surprising, since it was a Desilu show) and TNG are able to have HD collections that genuinely look good, while later Trek series mastered on tape are limited in that regard:
I don't even know anymore what the prime directive is. Season 1 of DS9 has an episode where a fugitive arrives on the station and it turns out he's the prey in most dangerous game sort of thing on his home planet. The hunters show up and and shoot up the station, clearly at least at advanced as the federation, and then sisko says he has to turn the hunted over because of the prime directive? What?
I don't even know anymore what the prime directive is. Season 1 of DS9 has an episode where a fugitive arrives on the station and it turns out he's the prey in most dangerous game sort of thing on his home planet. The hunters show up and and shoot up the station, clearly at least at advanced as the federation, and then sisko says he has to turn the hunted over because of the prime directive? What?
Guy that was being hunted refused asylum.
That came up after mentioning the prime directive as an out for him. Still, those guys came into federation/bajoran space, beamed onto a space station to shoot it up and the commander of the station can't interfere with their business?
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I originally thought the ST09 scene was supposed to illustrate a different kind of Kirk because his life had been shaped by the death of his father and this new Kirk was more reckless and impulsive and needed to grow.
I somewhat suspect, as time has gone on, that the filmmakers simply thought this was how it would go down and the silliness of the whole scene was not deliberate.
Anyway, one of the things the books mention is that Kirk, in fact, did the Kobyashi Maru the "real" way first, was annoyed at the confines of the test and cheated it the next time he did it. Though the book doesn't explain why they'd let anyone do the test more than once, since the surprise of there being no way to win it couldn't work twice. Maybe the faculty took it as a stress test - we think there's no way to win this scenario, but this bright young officer thinks he has found a way to beat it, let's make sure we programmed it right.
I was under the impression that the point of the KM scenario was drilling it into a captain's head that there are such things as no-win scenarios out there, and when you run into one the best you can hope for is to decide how much you lose.
To that end, there shouldn't be a limit on how many times a person can take the test until they learn the lesson. Many potential captains probably realize the point quickly enough, you'd imagine most go through the scenario a half dozen times trying different tactics before realizing that there's no possible win, but it takes a special type of person to hack in and rewrite the parameters of the test so that it can be won. Personally, I wouldn't want to know if the captain of my ship had tried it once and said "Oh, yeah, no win scenario. Got it. Now, where are the keys to my ship?". I'd much rather have the captain that drove themselves just short of insanity trying every conceivable option before admitting they couldn't do anything and moving on.
I seem to remember a TNG episode with Troi trying to work through a similarly unwinnable situation as part of her trying to get a rank until she realized that being in command meant making decisions that result in people dying, but I don't remember if they tied that in with the KM scenario or not.
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I don't know if there was a collection of short stories, but it definitely came up in the fiction.
I remember Scotty determining there was a flaw in the simulation that would let him beam or fire torpedoes through a weak point in the Klingon shields to let him blow them up with minimal risk to the ship. Something that wouldn't work in reality but got him points for creative thinking.
Pretty sure every fanfic character had their own similarly ingenious way of beating the unbeatable test.
I'd buy this explanation if Kirk hadn't immediately announced to Savik that the KM was a no win scenario as soon as she finished it the first time.
Also yeah Troi took the command test but that one made more sense to me as a test of command, since there WAS a solution to it, you just had to realize that death is part command.
Because we see a lot of Lieutenant Commander first officers—I think that might be more common than Commander, as a matter of fact—and they should definitely know that you can’t always save everyone.
That's been part of the problem - it's been a long time since I've seen Wrath of Kahn but in the original context, it was a scenario that made sense. However, especially in the expanded universe, it became a high score contest with any given character 'beat' it being used to establish their badass credentials.
Troi's officer test is another good example, and also reminds me of that Russian nuclear sub accident that had a movie made about it. The sub had chemical protection gear, but no radiation protection gear, so the engineers working on the damaged reactor were fully exposed. There are situations where there is no 'save everybody' solution, but at least with your best efforts, you can lose as little as possible.
I like to believe that most of the Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders fought their way up from the bottom, starting at the red shirt ranks, so they're well acquainted with the fact that they may need to sacrifice someone eventually (having almost certainly seen several of their colleagues sacrificed over the years).
Troi though, was the ships counselor, without an official rank (IIRC). Presumably, she didn't go through the same low ranking sacrificial-schmuck job progression as most of the bridge crew before amassing enough bridge time to qualify to take the test. So, she had to have that part spelled out for her before she got her rank pips.
This is in the film! Or like, they shot it. Scotty introduces his nephew to Kirk when he's touring Engineering. The scene and a couple others show up in the director's cut. Unfortunately I think the director's cut is only available on DVD and the Blu-Ray is just the regular theatrical version.
EDIT: they also pulled this with the director's cut of TMP, which is noticeably better than the theatrical cut but is now only available on a dead format.
That sucks.
I wish streaming services would let you pick which version you wanted to watch.
A character of mine took the test, failed it (of course), and took the "wrong" lesson from it - he believed that it was a personal failure, All His Fault, and that a real (potential) captain would have found a way, somehow. After his advisor took him aside and explained the real point of the test, he transferred from command track to engineering.
(And then, of course, fate conspired to put him in the big chair anyway, with a case of imposter syndrome that took him years to start getting over.)
Another, per my comments before the holiday break, took issue with how the simulation isn't an accurate representation of reality. The real universe isn't rigged, biased, or hostile; the real universe is utterly fair, impartial, and (metaphorically) will roll over and crush you without even noticing. Sometimes the cards you're dealt don't give you a win and/or survival option; she accepts this, which is arguably what the test is meant to teach. What she doesn't accept is the mechanism Starfleet uses, which is being jerked around by malign omnipotent (in the context of the sim) intelligence - a crooked dealer stacking the deck against you.
(Which is really a subset of her larger problem, which is that she's a scientist trying to make sense of a universe that runs on narrative and "make shit up as we go along", with logic and consistency somewhere near the bottom of page 3. And, to be honest, it also represents a failure on her part to grasp the difference between the priorities of an educator - who wants to "force" a teaching situation on their own time and terms, rather than taking chances on it happening randomly out in the black with real lives on the line - and a scientist, where interfering with an experiment or choosing the wrong starting point renders it useless.)
Troi was a Lt. Commander before the test. She had not passed the bridge officers test, if I am remembering correctly, which would allow her to take command of the bridge like Crusher does on occasion. It did end with her being promoted to Commander I think, but that was probably due to her being qualified in all the other ways as well. My interpretation has always been anyone we see in command of the bridge has passed the test (or some equivalent) but has other requirements to fill before being promoted further.
I take it you don't spend much time on the west coast? Some of the things being done re: homeless is atrocious, and homeless levels are at an all time high. Unlike immigrants however, homelessness isn't REALLY as big of an issue for GOP strongholds as it is for the cities, so it's not really a national issue. Follow Seattle politics for instance and it's huge.
Yeah, the 80s/90s were when Hollywood really really got infected by slash-and-burn capitalism. Make the film with enough quality to make money, ship it, immediately cycle into the next thing, forget the last thing even existed and record over it for the next show. It's weird that we seem to have better-kept media materials from stuff in the 50s than the 80s and early 90s, unless it was some mega-huge cultural thing like Friends. Though all that magnetic tape media really sucked for long-term storage, which probably didn't help.
Yup, it can't be allowed that something actually be done to deal with the homeless issue, it's just too perfect for the GOP to keep making it worse to fuck over those evil, evil liberal city centers while also trying to force people out of cities to dilute their voting power. Nevermind that the homeless issues are caused primarily by the rampant uncontrolled increase in housing prices, shitty wage stagnation, and lack of decent healthcare that the GOP basically builds on as a platform.
Yeah, this is the terrible tie-in fiction beating this entire idea to death thing I was talking about. But such is the way of expanding universes. Everything must be beaten to death.
That said, I appreciated when they at least used it to establish character rather then just as a stupid "I'm a badass" stamp of approval. I remember the captain from New Frontier's "solution" to the test was to blow the Kobayashi Maru up, figuring it was either a trap or they couldn't be rescued and were better off dead then in captives of the Klingons or Romulans or whoever it was at that point. Which is very much a thing that captain would do.
I'm well aware it's still a huge problem. But it's not a problem the way it was in the 90s, which is reflected in the politics of that two-parter. Immigration was just not the issue it was then like it is now and vice versa with homelessness and crime in cities and all that.
There was a book called "The Kobayashi Maru" by, I think, Vonda N. McIntyre? Maybe? Where several of the supporting cast are stranded on a shuttle after an ion storm or something, and while they wait for pickup (or to die, as help is light-years away) they exchange stories of the test.
But, as I recall, most of the stories aren't really about the Kobayashi Maru itself but more what it revealed about the characters, which is as it should be, I think? Scotty outmaneuvers the simulation for a while by taking advantage of some physics nonsense that wouldn't work in the real world but that the simulation isn't programmed to account for - basically wallhacking it - but he realizes that he hates being responsible for all these life and death decisions so doesn't opt for the command track.
Chekov just loses the test and then most of his story is actually about the next test, which is a laser tag battle royale with a hundred other cadets on an abandoned space station. It's nonsense but it was a very fun segment where he wheels and deals, makes alliances, etc.
I believe Sulu had a segment too but fucked if I can remember what it was, this was 30 years ago. Anyway, Scotty was the only one who scored some kind of weird unusual result, the rest of the characters it was more just an excuse to flashback to their academy days. I remember it being a good story but then, I was ten. I still bought Popples comic books.
Not really. This isn't an issue specific to one time period. There's a reason, for instance, there's a ton of what we think of as classic BBC shows that literally just don't exist anymore. Preservation of old material, especially television, was simply not a thing the industries thought about back then much if at all. Remember how many of these things even precede the idea of home media. The idea of preserving it for a rerelease was not a big thing.
Oh yeah, I vaguely remember something about how a ton of early Doctor Who is gone forever because the BBC used the film for another shows and obliterated the material by recording over it. Must just be a television thing in general, since there's all the usual greed of Hollywood but with tighter margins. Movie studios have been allowing reshowings of older movies since forever and so they could keep making money off the same run of a film, which would explain why so much of that has been preserved.
I both agree and disagree. The solution to the problem of the 90s was mass incarceration, which in a way is exactly what the Bell Riots is depicting.
The problems the show was pointing out still exist and to a massive degree, and need to be addressed.
For instance, mental health treatment is as bad as ever.
Sulu's dad had died like the day before or something, so he left the Maru in the Neutral Zone and went about his day. Was kind of funny in that the other cadets were all, "Are you allowed do that"?
Streaming services would absolutely love to let you pick which version you wanted to watch. The issue is the rights holders.
That was a command test, Troi was an actual Lt.Commander, but in the science division not the command division. Meaning that she couldn't take command of the ship except in emergency conditions. You can come up through the command divisions, who are trained specifically for taking command, or take the test if you're otherwise eligible for bridge command.
Yeah, from anything I've heard about how it works, the streaming services basically just have to take what they are given.
One thousand years dungeon
Sisko just didn’t want to say that there wasn’t room on the station for another non-descript alien in brown pajamas.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
I live in downtown Oakland and work in downtown SF.
I assure you it would not be necessary to change the targeted subgroup from the homeless and displaced working class to remain meaningful.
The only truly preposterous thing in those episodes is that they imply we'll have BART out to Marin by 2024. Who do they think will be the ones advocating for sanctuary districts? Marinites don't want mass transit to/from SF, for the same reason they'll be the ones advocating for sanctuary districts.
The thing is that film isn't reusable like videotape, so once you have a film master, all you can do with it is reshow it - this is why I Love Lucy, which was one of the first shows that recorded to film, became one of the first syndication darlings.
Edit: To bring this back to Trek, being mastered on film is why both TOS (not too surprising, since it was a Desilu show) and TNG are able to have HD collections that genuinely look good, while later Trek series mastered on tape are limited in that regard:
Guy that was being hunted refused asylum.
That came up after mentioning the prime directive as an out for him. Still, those guys came into federation/bajoran space, beamed onto a space station to shoot it up and the commander of the station can't interfere with their business?
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