It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
This is the problem. Belief that either we have to make money off of weapons sales or someone else will is just the most nihilistic capitalist nonsense.
It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
This is the problem. Belief that either we have to make money off of weapons sales or someone else will is just the most nihilistic capitalist nonsense.
How? Do you believe the USA is the only arms dealer in the world? This is reality. Again I say it doesn't mean we should be selling them weapons, but we can't pretend if we stop the problem goes away.
It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
Also, there is a problem of "what are you gonna do, not vote and let Trump keep being president?"
As terrible as Biden may be, Trump will be thousand times worse.
It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
This is the problem. Belief that either we have to make money off of weapons sales or someone else will is just the most nihilistic capitalist nonsense.
How? Do you believe the USA is the only arms dealer in the world? This is reality. Again I say it doesn't mean we should be selling them weapons, but we can't pretend if we stop the problem goes away.
We don't have to sell arms to them. That blood money is on our hands and I expect more from my Democratic representatives. If China or Russia wants to sell arms to the apartheid state, that is on them.
It really feels like the unspoken theme here is “nothing can be done to fix it, so we might as well just enable it.”
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
This is the problem. Belief that either we have to make money off of weapons sales or someone else will is just the most nihilistic capitalist nonsense.
How? Do you believe the USA is the only arms dealer in the world? This is reality. Again I say it doesn't mean we should be selling them weapons, but we can't pretend if we stop the problem goes away.
We don't have to sell arms to them. That blood money is on our hands and I expect more from my Democratic representatives. If China or Russia wants to sell arms to the apartheid state, that is on them.
It's on the Palestinians, actually. That is the whole problem. I much prefer advocating for steps to help Palestinians. Biden appears to be making some overtures in that direction so he is at least susceptible to pressure on that front.
There us only so far we can cut off nations before we stop having any effect on them.
The more we sever ties between the US an Israel, the strong Israeli ties with other nations become. India and Israel are already looking to increase trade and cooperation between their nations.
Not to mention even the Gulf nations have been sending out feelers to see how intrested Israel is in cooperation against Iran.
And they are a major arms manufacturer themselves.
I just dont believe we are that essential to Israel.
Like we cut off Israel over Palestine. The Saudi Arabia for their treatment of women and other minorities. Then China. Then Russia. Then Brazil for their environmental policy.
These nations will not be passive actors. We cannot strong arm the world into accepting our vision of it. At a certain point, you start losing influence with people if they think your goals are no longer in their best interests.
I'm not saying do nothing, I just find the proposed solutions here to ineffective.
We have a lot more influence over Israel than China.
I do not see anything wrong with basing actions on chance of success, and Israel is much more reliant on the US than most other places and they tend to know it. It does not require any military action nor would the US be hurt that much economically.
The literal history of the United States from the 20th century onward has LITERALLY been strong arming the other nations of the world into accepting our vision of it through a mix of military and diplomatic and economic powers
We are the remaining super power on this planet and the primary hegemon. I am utterly baffled that we keep swerving back to this “well there’s nothing the US can really do, we just don’t have the kind of pull necessary to change the world” mindset and it feels like a baffling kind of self serving hand washing regarding avoiding the complicated yet necessary work of using out standing in the world to improve it rather than just continue a status quo that is literally destroying lives
The literal history of the United States from the 20th century onward has LITERALLY been strong arming the other nations of the world into accepting our vision of it through a mix of military and diplomatic and economic powers
We are the remaining super power on this planet and the primary hegemon. I am utterly baffled that we keep swerving back to this “well there’s nothing the US can really do, we just don’t have the kind of pull necessary to change the world” mindset and it feels like a baffling kind of self serving hand washing regarding avoiding the complicated yet necessary work of using out standing in the world to improve it rather than just continue a status quo that is literally destroying lives
Via armed force an coups. Which I thought we were all against?
The literal history of the United States from the 20th century onward has LITERALLY been strong arming the other nations of the world into accepting our vision of it through a mix of military and diplomatic and economic powers
We are the remaining super power on this planet and the primary hegemon. I am utterly baffled that we keep swerving back to this “well there’s nothing the US can really do, we just don’t have the kind of pull necessary to change the world” mindset and it feels like a baffling kind of self serving hand washing regarding avoiding the complicated yet necessary work of using out standing in the world to improve it rather than just continue a status quo that is literally destroying lives
Via armed force an coups. Which I thought we were all against?
Diplomatic and Economic powers too!
Literally right there in the post! Literally the last line of the first part of that post!
I believe there's steps the U.S. could take that would be effective in possibly curtailing some of Israel's actions.
I don't see moving the embassy again achieving that or even being something that helps achieve it.
Curtailing doesn't really matter though.
That's still just a slow genocide.
If we're not gonna be able to stop the genocide, and only make it more digestible for the rest of the world by slowing it down and making it look more polite... we're not doing anything good. We should admit our failure and remove our support and stop helping the Israeli government perform and sell a slow genocide.
The article is horserace-narrative bait and everyone here is fighting over who gets to take it.
Well I can prove to you that it isn't a non-thing because 1) people obviously do care about it, a lot, and 2) it had a direct impact on the lives people of Palestine and Israel.
God you know the arrogance of American political narratives. You're the most powerful country in the world and your leaders throw around statements that are hugely impactful on the lives of people in other countries, who cannot make you accountable in any way, and you toss away the issue like it's a meaningless irrelevancy. It's not important what Biden will do on Palestine because it's not an important issue, it's irrelevant. It's not fucking irrelevant if you're Palestinian is it? No. Remember what happened in response to Trump's statement? People died!
I get what you're saying. The statement has an appreciable impact on people's material lives. I get that. At the same time I think this is still partly a non-thing because I doubt very few people, here or the broader American electorate, are going to change their vote over the issue. I'm still not convinced that policy -- either domestic or foreign -- actually matters significantly for the American presidential election.
This is the shit I’m talking about when I mentioned this being a fucked up sort of learned helplessness. Political leadership with a clear history showing their ideology regarding their vision for the world gets ignored because it’s a discomforting reality, so we instead opt for this false idea that there’s really nothing the global hegemon can do to make things better in the world.
Lanz on
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Fuckin' hell.
Grant Palestine UN membership.
Cease all military aid to Israel immediately.
Enforce sanctions against Israel.
Revoke sanctions against Iran.
As juicy as those trade partnerships with India and China are, their emergent markets right now are tech (especially information security products, a lot of it comes out of their military) and their relationships with the EU and the US are worth more. Blow a fucking hole in their economy and they'll change course. They're already on the verge of doing so anyway with generational shifts and amping up the pressure this way will accelerate that.
Do it to fucking Saudi Arabia too.
It's ridiculous that we do this shit to Iran over historic imperialist beef when Israel and Saudi Arabia are far more worthy targets that we constantly patronize.
The article is horserace-narrative bait and everyone here is fighting over who gets to take it.
Well I can prove to you that it isn't a non-thing because 1) people obviously do care about it, a lot, and 2) it had a direct impact on the lives people of Palestine and Israel.
God you know the arrogance of American political narratives. You're the most powerful country in the world and your leaders throw around statements that are hugely impactful on the lives of people in other countries, who cannot make you accountable in any way, and you toss away the issue like it's a meaningless irrelevancy. It's not important what Biden will do on Palestine because it's not an important issue, it's irrelevant. It's not fucking irrelevant if you're Palestinian is it? No. Remember what happened in response to Trump's statement? People died!
I get what you're saying. The statement has an appreciable impact on people's material lives. I get that. At the same time I think this is still partly a non-thing because I doubt very few people, here or the broader American electorate, are going to change their vote over the issue. I'm still not convinced that policy -- either domestic or foreign -- actually matters significantly for the American presidential election.
That doesn’t make it a non-thing.
That just highlights how American society is failing it’s democratic responsibilities. Which makes it at least a few shitty things instead of just one shitty thing.
As juicy as those trade partnerships with India and China are, their emergent markets right now are tech (especially information security products, a lot of it comes out of their military) and their relationships with the EU and the US are worth more. Blow a fucking hole in their economy and they'll change course. They're already on the verge of doing so anyway with generational shifts and amping up the pressure this way will accelerate that.
Do it to fucking Saudi Arabia too.
It's ridiculous that we do this shit to Iran over historic imperialist beef when Israel and Saudi Arabia are far more worthy targets that we constantly patronize.
There’s probably a good reason that Israel’s right wing and their supporters in the US get REALLY antsy about Boycott and Divestment and Sanctions as a movement
The article is horserace-narrative bait and everyone here is fighting over who gets to take it.
Well I can prove to you that it isn't a non-thing because 1) people obviously do care about it, a lot, and 2) it had a direct impact on the lives people of Palestine and Israel.
God you know the arrogance of American political narratives. You're the most powerful country in the world and your leaders throw around statements that are hugely impactful on the lives of people in other countries, who cannot make you accountable in any way, and you toss away the issue like it's a meaningless irrelevancy. It's not important what Biden will do on Palestine because it's not an important issue, it's irrelevant. It's not fucking irrelevant if you're Palestinian is it? No. Remember what happened in response to Trump's statement? People died!
I get what you're saying. The statement has an appreciable impact on people's material lives. I get that. At the same time I think this is still partly a non-thing because I doubt very few people, here or the broader American electorate, are going to change their vote over the issue. I'm still not convinced that policy -- either domestic or foreign -- actually matters significantly for the American presidential election.
That doesn’t make it a non-thing.
That just highlights how American society is failing it’s democratic responsibilities. Which makes it at least a few shitty things instead of just one shitty thing.
Israel is oddly doing more to move the US needle on this than the US is, because of the current PM being a corrupt idiot and making it more of a partisan issue. Also things like this, which as someone from the US reads as hilariously petty https://www.jns.org/opinion/joe-biden-israels-fake-friend/
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
As juicy as those trade partnerships with India and China are, their emergent markets right now are tech (especially information security products, a lot of it comes out of their military) and their relationships with the EU and the US are worth more. Blow a fucking hole in their economy and they'll change course. They're already on the verge of doing so anyway with generational shifts and amping up the pressure this way will accelerate that.
Do it to fucking Saudi Arabia too.
It's ridiculous that we do this shit to Iran over historic imperialist beef when Israel and Saudi Arabia are far more worthy targets that we constantly patronize.
There’s probably a good reason that Israel’s right wing and their supporters in the US get REALLY antsy about Boycott and Divestment and Sanctions as a movement
The reason is it would cripple them. :rotate:
Would also fix the lobbyist problem.
It's fucking wild to me that we're (rightfully) flipping the fuck out about Russian influence ops but anybody's allowed to just go to town buying off our politicians with lobbyists.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
The only way to make an anti apartheid stance is to send a message to the party that is supposedly against those atrocities.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
The article is horserace-narrative bait and everyone here is fighting over who gets to take it.
Well I can prove to you that it isn't a non-thing because 1) people obviously do care about it, a lot, and 2) it had a direct impact on the lives people of Palestine and Israel.
God you know the arrogance of American political narratives. You're the most powerful country in the world and your leaders throw around statements that are hugely impactful on the lives of people in other countries, who cannot make you accountable in any way, and you toss away the issue like it's a meaningless irrelevancy. It's not important what Biden will do on Palestine because it's not an important issue, it's irrelevant. It's not fucking irrelevant if you're Palestinian is it? No. Remember what happened in response to Trump's statement? People died!
I get what you're saying. The statement has an appreciable impact on people's material lives. I get that. At the same time I think this is still partly a non-thing because I doubt very few people, here or the broader American electorate, are going to change their vote over the issue. I'm still not convinced that policy -- either domestic or foreign -- actually matters significantly for the American presidential election.
That doesn’t make it a non-thing.
That just highlights how American society is failing it’s democratic responsibilities. Which makes it at least a few shitty things instead of just one shitty thing.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this.
So it is a nuanced thing since it’s fueled by our education system being abysmal, a systemic effort to restrict the franchise, the every day pressures of trying to live in a competitive capitalist society that views labor as replaceable parts that needs to have its costs driven to the absolute minimum possible all coming together to produce a society that is increasingly unable to do the work of self governance because they’re barely treading water to stay alive but
Well
An ostensible democracy whose populace does not do the work required to govern itself, including understanding and caring about their nation’s foreign policy, isn’t good.
The sad truth of the matter is that there is not the political will to rock the boat in any way to prevent genocide. Neither among the US government nor it's voters, in either party. We are simply to exhausted by our misadventures in the middle East, and moribund from our increasingly obvious internal issues.
GWB's adventures round the world really don't factor into it much. There has never really been the political will for the US to pushback against Israel's policy. The US government's stance on this issue, that judging from the long history of middle east threads we've had on this board is unpopular with most of the posters here, is sadly longstanding, bipartisan and broadly popular. With the political class, with the DC power structures, with the media and with the public.
The last one is actually slowly changing recently but that's gonna take a long time to work it's way through the system, if it ever does.
The only way to make an anti apartheid stance is to send a message to the party that is supposedly against those atrocities.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
What is the point of the party on this issue if they are going to do the same shit as their ostensible opposition
The only way to make an anti apartheid stance is to send a message to the party that is supposedly against those atrocities.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
What is the point of the party on this issue if they are going to do the same shit as their ostensible opposition
We have. To goddam. Be. Better.
They are going to build an embassy for Palestine at some other time. No details yet.
As juicy as those trade partnerships with India and China are, their emergent markets right now are tech (especially information security products, a lot of it comes out of their military) and their relationships with the EU and the US are worth more. Blow a fucking hole in their economy and they'll change course. They're already on the verge of doing so anyway with generational shifts and amping up the pressure this way will accelerate that.
Do it to fucking Saudi Arabia too.
It's ridiculous that we do this shit to Iran over historic imperialist beef when Israel and Saudi Arabia are far more worthy targets that we constantly patronize.
You may get to do the first 2, but by the bolded... Congratulations, ALL of the US media and political structures are now calling you an anti-semite and refuses to do anything other than force you to resign ASAP. You aren't being re-elected, anything else you ever wanted to do is no longer going to happen, and everything you just did is undone the moment you leave office if not before then as Congress overrides you and says fuck you by going even further in supporting Israel than they already are.
Doing these things might make you feel good, but they will absolutely not help the situation
The only way to make an anti apartheid stance is to send a message to the party that is supposedly against those atrocities.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
What is the point of the party on this issue if they are going to do the same shit as their ostensible opposition
We have. To goddam. Be. Better.
The Democrats are not going to oppose everything the GOP favors out of spite. They are going to follow voter trends and see how they can build winning coalitions.
Support for Israel is, for now, a bipartisan issue. The Dems are not going to risk losing more votes than they can gain back by radically changing their stance on Israel and Palestine.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
The only way to make an anti apartheid stance is to send a message to the party that is supposedly against those atrocities.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
What is the point of the party on this issue if they are going to do the same shit as their ostensible opposition
We have. To goddam. Be. Better.
They don't! Look at Obama versus Trump's administration, if you as saying they do the same goddamn thing you are delusional or arguing in complete bad faith.
Do they do as much as you or many of us would like? No! That's politics, there are a fuck ton of issues and only so much political capital to spend to affect change. Should we better? Of course! Are we going to get better by tearing down the imperfect candidate we have to let Trump run rampant again for 4 years? Fuck no.
Or are you proposing that we throw away all of the morals and beliefs of propriety that keeps us from going down incredibly dark paths?
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Oh, fuck off Phasen. Yes, they do. Every politician calculates what they can do to get re-elected. Be it throwing red meat to their base to falling in line with Trump even if it is against their historic platform. You're trying to set up some false dichotomy spike and its both transparent and disgusting.
And is saying he is going to maintain the Trump administration’s decision to maintain the Embassy move to Jerusalem. A measure he voted in favor of during his days in Congress. A measure that effectively signals that the official policy of the United States of America is that Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel And enables the nation’s right wing factions to continue denying any shared claim as a historic and culturally important city to the Palestinian people.
I’m not going to pretend Biden is good on this issue just because a D follows his name. He has to actually do goddamn better.
This is the shit I’m talking about when I mentioned this being a fucked up sort of learned helplessness. Political leadership with a clear history showing their ideology regarding their vision for the world gets ignored because it’s a discomforting reality, so we instead opt for this false idea that there’s really nothing the global hegemon can do to make things better in the world.
The US's ability to influence Israeli domestic policy is not all that strong. Partly due to various circumstances but mostly because the US, politicians, media, public, etc, lacks the political will to do it and so even if you can get a president in place who might want to, they won't be able to.
Obama was not president all that long ago and provided a pretty straightforward example of how the Israeli government can flip the bird at the US trying to exert even the tiniest amount of pressure on them.
Or are you proposing that we throw away all of the morals and beliefs of propriety that keeps us from going down incredibly dark paths?
That’s not what Phasen means
What Phasen means is that Republicans actually articulate their values, abhorrent as they are, and fight for them at every stage instead of hemming and hawing over technocratic political fictions over fears that they may lose votes if they don’t desperately attempt to thread the needle of the status quo
They have clear ideologies, articulate them, campaign on them and ram them the fuck through at every potential opportunity.
Posts
Particularly when folks start arguing the only way to fix it is fucking Regime Change
Well in large part that's because we can't. Like we can signal intent, and we can state our goals sure. But short of an invasion and regime change there really isn't much we can do to force the issue. We stop selling arms and someone else will do it. Any support we withdraw is likely to be given back by another political power with less morals and a compatible agenda. I don't say this to say we should avoid doing those things, but to acknowledge the reality people ultimately have free will.
The other problem is the back and forth has been hyper focused on this one example as a proxy for any action ever which creates this illusion. I don't see the value in moving the embassy back, but building an equally awesome one for Palestine in Jerusalem accomplishes all the goals of moving it back while also signaling an intention to move forward rather than just tread water.
This is the problem. Belief that either we have to make money off of weapons sales or someone else will is just the most nihilistic capitalist nonsense.
How? Do you believe the USA is the only arms dealer in the world? This is reality. Again I say it doesn't mean we should be selling them weapons, but we can't pretend if we stop the problem goes away.
Also, there is a problem of "what are you gonna do, not vote and let Trump keep being president?"
As terrible as Biden may be, Trump will be thousand times worse.
We don't have to sell arms to them. That blood money is on our hands and I expect more from my Democratic representatives. If China or Russia wants to sell arms to the apartheid state, that is on them.
It's on the Palestinians, actually. That is the whole problem. I much prefer advocating for steps to help Palestinians. Biden appears to be making some overtures in that direction so he is at least susceptible to pressure on that front.
The more we sever ties between the US an Israel, the strong Israeli ties with other nations become. India and Israel are already looking to increase trade and cooperation between their nations.
Not to mention even the Gulf nations have been sending out feelers to see how intrested Israel is in cooperation against Iran.
And they are a major arms manufacturer themselves.
I just dont believe we are that essential to Israel.
These nations will not be passive actors. We cannot strong arm the world into accepting our vision of it. At a certain point, you start losing influence with people if they think your goals are no longer in their best interests.
I'm not saying do nothing, I just find the proposed solutions here to ineffective.
I do not see anything wrong with basing actions on chance of success, and Israel is much more reliant on the US than most other places and they tend to know it. It does not require any military action nor would the US be hurt that much economically.
We are the remaining super power on this planet and the primary hegemon. I am utterly baffled that we keep swerving back to this “well there’s nothing the US can really do, we just don’t have the kind of pull necessary to change the world” mindset and it feels like a baffling kind of self serving hand washing regarding avoiding the complicated yet necessary work of using out standing in the world to improve it rather than just continue a status quo that is literally destroying lives
I think they could easily hobble efforts from the executive branch through congress or simply wait for a Republican to eventually get elected again.
I don't see moving the embassy again achieving that or even being something that helps achieve it.
Via armed force an coups. Which I thought we were all against?
Diplomatic and Economic powers too!
Literally right there in the post! Literally the last line of the first part of that post!
Curtailing doesn't really matter though.
That's still just a slow genocide.
If we're not gonna be able to stop the genocide, and only make it more digestible for the rest of the world by slowing it down and making it look more polite... we're not doing anything good. We should admit our failure and remove our support and stop helping the Israeli government perform and sell a slow genocide.
I get what you're saying. The statement has an appreciable impact on people's material lives. I get that. At the same time I think this is still partly a non-thing because I doubt very few people, here or the broader American electorate, are going to change their vote over the issue. I'm still not convinced that policy -- either domestic or foreign -- actually matters significantly for the American presidential election.
Grant Palestine UN membership.
Cease all military aid to Israel immediately.
Enforce sanctions against Israel.
Revoke sanctions against Iran.
As juicy as those trade partnerships with India and China are, their emergent markets right now are tech (especially information security products, a lot of it comes out of their military) and their relationships with the EU and the US are worth more. Blow a fucking hole in their economy and they'll change course. They're already on the verge of doing so anyway with generational shifts and amping up the pressure this way will accelerate that.
Do it to fucking Saudi Arabia too.
It's ridiculous that we do this shit to Iran over historic imperialist beef when Israel and Saudi Arabia are far more worthy targets that we constantly patronize.
That doesn’t make it a non-thing.
That just highlights how American society is failing it’s democratic responsibilities. Which makes it at least a few shitty things instead of just one shitty thing.
There’s probably a good reason that Israel’s right wing and their supporters in the US get REALLY antsy about Boycott and Divestment and Sanctions as a movement
I'm not really sure what you mean by this.
https://www.jns.org/opinion/joe-biden-israels-fake-friend/
The reason is it would cripple them. :rotate:
Would also fix the lobbyist problem.
It's fucking wild to me that we're (rightfully) flipping the fuck out about Russian influence ops but anybody's allowed to just go to town buying off our politicians with lobbyists.
And that message is... to wreck the political chances of the Democartic party to gain power if they don't go irresponsibly strident in their foreign policy? This sounds a lot like 2016. The democrats sure learned a lesson with Trump, yep! Too bad the world paid for it.
So it is a nuanced thing since it’s fueled by our education system being abysmal, a systemic effort to restrict the franchise, the every day pressures of trying to live in a competitive capitalist society that views labor as replaceable parts that needs to have its costs driven to the absolute minimum possible all coming together to produce a society that is increasingly unable to do the work of self governance because they’re barely treading water to stay alive but
Well
An ostensible democracy whose populace does not do the work required to govern itself, including understanding and caring about their nation’s foreign policy, isn’t good.
GWB's adventures round the world really don't factor into it much. There has never really been the political will for the US to pushback against Israel's policy. The US government's stance on this issue, that judging from the long history of middle east threads we've had on this board is unpopular with most of the posters here, is sadly longstanding, bipartisan and broadly popular. With the political class, with the DC power structures, with the media and with the public.
The last one is actually slowly changing recently but that's gonna take a long time to work it's way through the system, if it ever does.
What is the point of the party on this issue if they are going to do the same shit as their ostensible opposition
We have. To goddam. Be. Better.
They are going to build an embassy for Palestine at some other time. No details yet.
You may get to do the first 2, but by the bolded... Congratulations, ALL of the US media and political structures are now calling you an anti-semite and refuses to do anything other than force you to resign ASAP. You aren't being re-elected, anything else you ever wanted to do is no longer going to happen, and everything you just did is undone the moment you leave office if not before then as Congress overrides you and says fuck you by going even further in supporting Israel than they already are.
Doing these things might make you feel good, but they will absolutely not help the situation
The Democrats are not going to oppose everything the GOP favors out of spite. They are going to follow voter trends and see how they can build winning coalitions.
Support for Israel is, for now, a bipartisan issue. The Dems are not going to risk losing more votes than they can gain back by radically changing their stance on Israel and Palestine.
They don't! Look at Obama versus Trump's administration, if you as saying they do the same goddamn thing you are delusional or arguing in complete bad faith.
Do they do as much as you or many of us would like? No! That's politics, there are a fuck ton of issues and only so much political capital to spend to affect change. Should we better? Of course! Are we going to get better by tearing down the imperfect candidate we have to let Trump run rampant again for 4 years? Fuck no.
Does it matter?
Or are you proposing that we throw away all of the morals and beliefs of propriety that keeps us from going down incredibly dark paths?
Joe Biden is running for a first term
And is saying he is going to maintain the Trump administration’s decision to maintain the Embassy move to Jerusalem. A measure he voted in favor of during his days in Congress. A measure that effectively signals that the official policy of the United States of America is that Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel And enables the nation’s right wing factions to continue denying any shared claim as a historic and culturally important city to the Palestinian people.
I’m not going to pretend Biden is good on this issue just because a D follows his name. He has to actually do goddamn better.
The US's ability to influence Israeli domestic policy is not all that strong. Partly due to various circumstances but mostly because the US, politicians, media, public, etc, lacks the political will to do it and so even if you can get a president in place who might want to, they won't be able to.
Obama was not president all that long ago and provided a pretty straightforward example of how the Israeli government can flip the bird at the US trying to exert even the tiniest amount of pressure on them.
That’s not what Phasen means
What Phasen means is that Republicans actually articulate their values, abhorrent as they are, and fight for them at every stage instead of hemming and hawing over technocratic political fictions over fears that they may lose votes if they don’t desperately attempt to thread the needle of the status quo
They have clear ideologies, articulate them, campaign on them and ram them the fuck through at every potential opportunity.