All the obi and jango parts are pretty good I think.
Anakin is just so, so creepy.
I like how colourful the prequels are, especially Coruscant.
The CGI of the space stuff is generally pretty good, as is the Camino part. The perspectives in several CGI scenes especially in some Coruscant interiors are really fucked up though.
All the costume, set, character, and space sip design in particular are just top notch. The sequels unending parade of same but marginally altered or blown up in size and numbers designs can't hold a candle to the prequels.
Yeah, in addition to everything else with the ST, the unimaginative aesthetic also frustrates me. Some of it makes sense - the Resistance is using handed down gear, so a lot of it should look similar to what the Rebels had (although, Rogue One still gave us new ships despite tighter timeline restrictions) - but why is everything else except for Kylo's personal ships essentially the same? Why do we still have Stormtroopers? Why do we still have gigantic triangular Star Destroyers? Why does the costuming, sets, etc look the same? Why hasn't anything progressed, visually? Or technologically?
Because the writers think the audience is dumb and won't understand what's going on if red lightsabers doesn't automatically equal bad guy.
IMO, it's not that they think we're dumb, it's that we want it that way. That we want the fanservice.
And they're right... to a point. But if I want to chow down on a bunch of 'member berries, the OT is right there, on my shelf. I don't want or need another trilogy that's "more of the same, but less comprehensible and written/directed worse."
I believe it's Yoda who mentions that Qui Gon is the guy who figured out how to actually come back as a force ghost at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Presumably until then they just chilled out in whatever force-afterlife exists without being able to project themselves as ghosts to the still living.
I believe it's Yoda who mentions that Qui Gon is the guy who figured out how to actually come back as a force ghost at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Presumably until then they just chilled out in whatever force-afterlife exists without being able to project themselves as ghosts to the still living.
Hmmm so all the Jedi after that vaporize upon death?
IIRC there was consideration to have a Liam Neeson cameo with Yoda which makes the "Imma teach you this technique" thing explicit but he had a motorcycle accident at the time and wasn't available.
I believe it's Yoda who mentions that Qui Gon is the guy who figured out how to actually come back as a force ghost at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Presumably until then they just chilled out in whatever force-afterlife exists without being able to project themselves as ghosts to the still living.
Yes, it's the dumbest fucking thing. Which, given it's the PT, is not surprising.
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With the caveat that it was fine just being 'a thing Jedi can do' as per the OT, I don't think the way its been handled is all that bad.
The Yoda arc in S6 of Clone Wars goes into what was necessary for Yoda to properly contact Qui-Gon and work towards the ability to become a Force Ghost. Its something requiring Balance and a healthier understanding of the Force than most PT-era Jedi had, even someone like Yoda.
Which means it makes sense in the greater context of Qui-Gon stuff that he would get it before any other Jedi of the era, since he's always been a rogue-ish Jedi and more recent canon stuff has filled in the gaps by showing him as developing an more naturalistic, balanced take on the Force.
Obi-Wan was directly trained by someone who had figured things out, so its fine that he got it--and he was never really hostile to compassion and emotion, even if usually stuck to the company line.
Anakin pulling it off once he came back to the Light isn't shocking, hell Dark-sider-returned-to-the-Light might have it easier PLUS he did the whole balance thing on Mortis.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
Yeah I thought ghost yoda calling down the thunder was cool. He's a powerful dude and it seemed mystic and like a force of nature, which is very on point for a Jedi that has passed on and become one with the force.
I dunno about how other stuff might hit me yet because I'm still waiting for TROS to hit Disney+.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
So Clone Wars is... OK so far. This first season is not as bad as the pilot movie had promised, but the aesthetic is still proving a huge hurdle for me, and the decision to cast an American with a fake kiwi accent to voice all the clones is... bad. Quite bad.
Interestingly combat Yoda in this is handled a little better than in AotC; he still does his dumb flippy jumpy stuff but there's also a moment where he just closes his eyes and zens out while battling droids with telekenesis and stuff which is the sort of thing I had wanted to see from the character anyway. So there's that! I'm torn on Anakin basically being a completely different character because, on the one hand, it's pretty jarring, but on the other hand, movie Anakin sucks and they had to do something about that.
The writers for Clone Wars pull off a minor miracle in salvaging Lucas's ideas and decisions over time
Filoni is apparently a pretty close protege of Lucas. He seems to have a really good grasp of Lucas's intentions for Star Wars, while having a much better sense for execution.
I know some people don't like the weird Force bullshit he's added to canon, hell I'm not sure I like all of it, but I think his appreciation for that sort of weird nonsense is part of why he seems to get Star Wars better than 90% of people that touch it.
The writers for Clone Wars pull off a minor miracle in salvaging Lucas's ideas and decisions over time
Filoni is apparently a pretty close protege of Lucas. He seems to have a really good grasp of Lucas's intentions for Star Wars, while having a much better sense for execution.
I know some people don't like the weird Force bullshit he's added to canon, hell I'm not sure I like all of it, but I think his appreciation for that sort of weird nonsense is part of why he seems to get Star Wars better than 90% of people that touch it.
I like a lot of his weird force shit. More so with Rebels than with Clone Wars. The Father, the son, and the daughter stuff was just a step too far in weird Lucasness to me.
But time and the force being weird with it makes sense. Animals with the ability to use the force have been around forever. We know the force allows people to feel and know things at great distances so we know it doesn't function in the normal sense of space.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
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I believe it's Yoda who mentions that Qui Gon is the guy who figured out how to actually come back as a force ghost at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Presumably until then they just chilled out in whatever force-afterlife exists without being able to project themselves as ghosts to the still living.
Clone Wars kind of clarifies in the Mortis arc that Qui-Gon was about halfway there. He was able to retain singular consciousness, something the Jedi thought was impossible--in the prequel era, the Jedi believed that if you're not a dark-sider, your consciousness rejoins with the Force upon death, and your personality is gone but what was you sort of remains as part of the collective unconscious of the universe--but wasn't able to do much with it, aside from reach out to someone who was deep in the Force. (Hence, while meditating, Yoda was able to hear Qui-Gon pleading with Anakin not to massacre the tuskens in AOTC; in the Mortis arc of Clone Wars, when they entered Mortis, which was sort of a world between, Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to talk to Qui-Gon face to face.)
the non-stop force power creep is a mistake. We can teleport physical objects through the force now? sigh.
That at least was because of the "force dyad" which is over now.
What the fuck even is a force dyad
Re: Qui-Gon, I seriously wonder if George had this white board with “metal af Viking funeral pyre” ending for Qui-Gon and only remembered later that all the Jedi in the OT vaporized and went “oh fuck, Uh Qui-Gon’s ghost invented it”
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
I don't know what to tell you, they talk openly about Qui-Gon's different philosophy from the opening scene of TPM. Of course I've got no way to prove this, but I walked out of that movie wondering if Qui-Gon's line about present vs future was the catalyst for Obi Wan learning to ghost. When his voice was heard in AotC, I was pretty sure I was right. Now, RotS dropped the final reveal in some shitty Yoda dialogue, sure. And nothing in the PT is done with grace. But yes, we've always known that Obi Wan and Vader were friends as well as master and student. It's always been clear that Obi Wan dropped some new knowledge on Vader, the former Jedi that would know about vanishing bodies. When Qui-Gon failed to disappear, we knew it was because that shit wasn't invented yet.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
A New Hope is fundamentally altered by Empire making Vader Luke's father and a former Jedi which takes your reading of Vader's reaction as initially correct but not really logical ever since.
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Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
I don't know what to tell you, they talk openly about Qui-Gon's different philosophy from the opening scene of TPM. Of course I've got no way to prove this, but I walked out of that movie wondering if Qui-Gon's line about present vs future was the catalyst for Obi Wan learning to ghost. When his voice was heard in AotC, I was pretty sure I was right. Now, RotS dropped the final reveal in some shitty Yoda dialogue, sure. And nothing in the PT is done with grace. But yes, we've always known that Obi Wan and Vader were friends as well as master and student. It's always been clear that Obi Wan dropped some new knowledge on Vader, the former Jedi that would know about vanishing bodies. When Qui-Gon failed to disappear, we knew it was because that shit wasn't invented yet.
Qui-Gon isn't openly talking about different philosophies in TPM. It's one line and it's basically just "concentrate on what you are doing right now dude and listen to the Force".
And again, I have literally never heard a single person ever question Obi-Wan disappearing in ANH before you did right here. It was never a mystery and it's never needed explaining. It's just an illustration of how Vader's arrogance about his understanding of the Force is misplaced and how Obi-wan is actually the wise master who still knows more. Vader's evil and so he's not enlightened enough to get it so he's confused by what happens to Obi-Wan. These guys are warrior-monks straight out of a kung fu movie but in spaaaaaace. Of course the master knows shit the students don't expect or have ever seen before. The line setting up this whole thing is Vader being all "Now I'm the master!" and Obi-wan being all "Pfft, you don't know shit dude." And this is actually reinforced in ESB where Yoda talks about how the dark side is the easy way to power. Faster, easier, more seductive, but not more powerful. Vader took the shortcut to power. He doesn't actually understand the force like the Jedi master's do.
So when did Anakin learn it since apparently it's something that has to be taught?
It's a bit questionable, but 'Anakin (not Vader)' is still (probably) the Chosen One and had the whole interaction with balance on Mortis to put him in the right place to become a Force Ghost. Qui-Gon half got it by just being in balance with the Force and having some weird mystical experiences, and he's not got a fraction of the Force oomph or destiny on him Anakin did.
Alternatively, look forward to it being explained in a comic or novel with him exploring it after ANH because it seems like he would probably do some research at that point.
Actually that sounds kind of fun, I want to see him completely stumped by the Force priestesses and left to just wonder what the hell just happened.
Force Ghosts in the OT are fine. It's when the PT feels the need to make it this thing that Qui-Gon just discovered because ... why? It just detracts from whole idea in the same way midichlorians do.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
I don't know what to tell you, they talk openly about Qui-Gon's different philosophy from the opening scene of TPM. Of course I've got no way to prove this, but I walked out of that movie wondering if Qui-Gon's line about present vs future was the catalyst for Obi Wan learning to ghost. When his voice was heard in AotC, I was pretty sure I was right. Now, RotS dropped the final reveal in some shitty Yoda dialogue, sure. And nothing in the PT is done with grace. But yes, we've always known that Obi Wan and Vader were friends as well as master and student. It's always been clear that Obi Wan dropped some new knowledge on Vader, the former Jedi that would know about vanishing bodies. When Qui-Gon failed to disappear, we knew it was because that shit wasn't invented yet.
Qui-Gon isn't openly talking about different philosophies in TPM. It's one line and it's basically just "concentrate on what you are doing right now dude and listen to the Force".
And again, I have literally never heard a single person ever question Obi-Wan disappearing in ANH before you did right here. It was never a mystery and it's never needed explaining. It's just an illustration of how Vader's arrogance about his understanding of the Force is misplaced and how Obi-wan is actually the wise master who still knows more. Vader's evil and so he's not enlightened enough to get it so he's confused by what happens to Obi-Wan. These guys are warrior-monks straight out of a kung fu movie but in spaaaaaace. Of course the master knows shit the students don't expect or have ever seen before. The line setting up this whole thing is Vader being all "Now I'm the master!" and Obi-wan being all "Pfft, you don't know shit dude." And this is actually reinforced in ESB where Yoda talks about how the dark side is the easy way to power. Faster, easier, more seductive, but not more powerful. Vader took the shortcut to power. He doesn't actually understand the force like the Jedi master's do.
I can't control for what you have and have not heard, dude. All I know is I've heard it, plenty.
Just started playing Fallen Order recently and I find one aspect of it amusing....
My Cal is a useless twit of a Jedi, flailing around ineptly with a Lightsaber (I got killed by a jumped up Prarie Dog over the weekend, for fucks sake) until I mysteriously get the timing right on a block & counter and then Cal is complete badass. :razz:
Just started playing Fallen Order recently and I find one aspect of it amusing....
My Cal is a useless twit of a Jedi, flailing around ineptly with a Lightsaber (I got killed by a jumped up Prarie Dog over the weekend, for fucks sake) until I mysteriously get the timing right on a block & counter and then Cal is complete badass. :razz:
"You've taken your first step into a larger world."
Up to the Mortis arc of my chronological re-watching of Clone Wars.
I think the reason I like this arc while a lot of other people don't is because the entire thing has the feel of one of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion crossover chapters.
The heroes go to a place where the barrier between universes is weak and face outlandish foes far more powerful than their normal enemies because they can have a unique and temporary power upgrade, and have their futures told to them, but don't remember any of it when they return to the normal world.
I guess I like the fact that, every once in awhile, the Star Wars universe can cut loose and Get Weird. Other folks might not appreciate the divergence from the normal plots, but I for one am onboard with Filoni-ism.
EDIT: One more thing:
The "Chosen One" stuff from the PT always made me chuckle, because Anakin does, in fact, bring balance to the Force by murdering the Jedi until there are only two left (Yoda and Obi-Wan) to match the "always two there are" Sith (himself and Sideous), and later goes even further to kill the Emperor after Yoda dies (Luke having replaced Obi-Wan in the equation). George Lucas always contended that the Chosen One was supposed to help the Jedi and that "balance" was pro-Light side, but I appreciate that there is a Literal Genie interpretation that actually came true, and Anakin causing the death of both the Son and Daughter at Mortis is expressly calling out that Anakin's balance is that of the blade. Makes me wonder what George thought of that plot.
All the obi and jango parts are pretty good I think.
Anakin is just so, so creepy.
I like how colourful the prequels are, especially Coruscant.
The CGI of the space stuff is generally pretty good, as is the Camino part. The perspectives in several CGI scenes especially in some Coruscant interiors are really fucked up though.
All the costume, set, character, and space sip design in particular are just top notch. The sequels unending parade of same but marginally altered or blown up in size and numbers designs can't hold a candle to the prequels.
Yeah, in addition to everything else with the ST, the unimaginative aesthetic also frustrates me. Some of it makes sense - the Resistance is using handed down gear, so a lot of it should look similar to what the Rebels had (although, Rogue One still gave us new ships despite tighter timeline restrictions) - but why is everything else except for Kylo's personal ships essentially the same? Why do we still have Stormtroopers? Why do we still have gigantic triangular Star Destroyers? Why does the costuming, sets, etc look the same? Why hasn't anything progressed, visually? Or technologically?
Because the writers think the audience is dumb and won't understand what's going on if red lightsabers doesn't automatically equal bad guy.
Some things "make sense". If you have enough presence of mind to wonder, "Why are Empire's predominant star destroyers still around thirty years later?" You probably wouldn't be surprised by some relevant basics of naval engineering and warfare. We, on Earth, use warships for more than thirty years all the time. The famed Ticonderoga-class of missile cruiser, which is boasted as "very modern", were first launched 37 years ago. And there are older ships. You recognized the star destroyer was from the past films--you would also probably remember that they were big, fast, and tough as hell as far as large capital ships were concerned (not that they were invulnerable, but that's mostly owed to almost every other type of warship being worse). So an ISD reappearing is oddly sensible.
What doesn't make sense is scaling the same design--using almost the same model--1.5 time. Or turning it into a mini-Deathstar. Or both. Those don't hold up to scrutiny. The age is not so much a problem as the context. Lightsabers, after all, are thousands of years old. But apparently, only bad guys can use red lightsabers now because of rules.
What doesn't make sense is scaling the same design--using almost the same model--1.5 time. Or turning it into a mini-Deathstar. Or both. Those don't hold up to scrutiny. The age is not so much a problem as the context. Lightsabers, after all, are thousands of years old. But apparently, only bad guys can use red lightsabers now because of rules.
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IMO, it's not that they think we're dumb, it's that we want it that way. That we want the fanservice.
And they're right... to a point. But if I want to chow down on a bunch of 'member berries, the OT is right there, on my shelf. I don't want or need another trilogy that's "more of the same, but less comprehensible and written/directed worse."
I believe it's Yoda who mentions that Qui Gon is the guy who figured out how to actually come back as a force ghost at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Presumably until then they just chilled out in whatever force-afterlife exists without being able to project themselves as ghosts to the still living.
Hmmm so all the Jedi after that vaporize upon death?
He had a metal funeral pyre
He did. Just not immediately. Its heavily implicated that Qui-Gon was the originator of that particular force power.
Yes, it's the dumbest fucking thing. Which, given it's the PT, is not surprising.
The Yoda arc in S6 of Clone Wars goes into what was necessary for Yoda to properly contact Qui-Gon and work towards the ability to become a Force Ghost. Its something requiring Balance and a healthier understanding of the Force than most PT-era Jedi had, even someone like Yoda.
Which means it makes sense in the greater context of Qui-Gon stuff that he would get it before any other Jedi of the era, since he's always been a rogue-ish Jedi and more recent canon stuff has filled in the gaps by showing him as developing an more naturalistic, balanced take on the Force.
Obi-Wan was directly trained by someone who had figured things out, so its fine that he got it--and he was never really hostile to compassion and emotion, even if usually stuck to the company line.
Anakin pulling it off once he came back to the Light isn't shocking, hell Dark-sider-returned-to-the-Light might have it easier PLUS he did the whole balance thing on Mortis.
Luke's not surprising either.
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Calling down lightning from a storm, that’s fine, IMO. It’s indirect.
Catching the lightsaber? Nope.
Raising the X-wing? I guess it’s technically fine...but like most stuff in TROS, it’s just so over the top and unnecessary.
I dunno about how other stuff might hit me yet because I'm still waiting for TROS to hit Disney+.
I think it's just about the only thing in the PT that works. As a religion, the Jedi have become stagnant. They are the dead enders. The Sith are no better. Qui-Gon is this radical that refuses to toe the Church line or convert to Sithery. He achieves the balance that nobody else even knew they needed to look for.
As always, it doesn't come across in the movie. There is some quick dialogue in the beginning of TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan that sketches out the difference between Jinn and Yoda. Other than that, we're left to pick up the pieces from behind the scenes talks, novelizations, and assorted side media.
But as a concept, the Living Force vs the Unifying Force is a neat evolution and the best way to show the downfall of the Jedi. They had it wrong.
Interestingly combat Yoda in this is handled a little better than in AotC; he still does his dumb flippy jumpy stuff but there's also a moment where he just closes his eyes and zens out while battling droids with telekenesis and stuff which is the sort of thing I had wanted to see from the character anyway. So there's that! I'm torn on Anakin basically being a completely different character because, on the one hand, it's pretty jarring, but on the other hand, movie Anakin sucks and they had to do something about that.
Filoni is apparently a pretty close protege of Lucas. He seems to have a really good grasp of Lucas's intentions for Star Wars, while having a much better sense for execution.
I know some people don't like the weird Force bullshit he's added to canon, hell I'm not sure I like all of it, but I think his appreciation for that sort of weird nonsense is part of why he seems to get Star Wars better than 90% of people that touch it.
I like a lot of his weird force shit. More so with Rebels than with Clone Wars. The Father, the son, and the daughter stuff was just a step too far in weird Lucasness to me.
But time and the force being weird with it makes sense. Animals with the ability to use the force have been around forever. We know the force allows people to feel and know things at great distances so we know it doesn't function in the normal sense of space.
I general Rebels was the best stuff recently.
None of that has anything to do with force ghosts though. "Qui-Gon figured out force ghosts" are just a line Lucas threw in, just like midichlorians, because he for some reason felt like this shit needed an explanation. As if everyone was confused about the issue till he had Yoda explain it.
Clone Wars kind of clarifies in the Mortis arc that Qui-Gon was about halfway there. He was able to retain singular consciousness, something the Jedi thought was impossible--in the prequel era, the Jedi believed that if you're not a dark-sider, your consciousness rejoins with the Force upon death, and your personality is gone but what was you sort of remains as part of the collective unconscious of the universe--but wasn't able to do much with it, aside from reach out to someone who was deep in the Force. (Hence, while meditating, Yoda was able to hear Qui-Gon pleading with Anakin not to massacre the tuskens in AOTC; in the Mortis arc of Clone Wars, when they entered Mortis, which was sort of a world between, Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to talk to Qui-Gon face to face.)
What the fuck even is a force dyad
Re: Qui-Gon, I seriously wonder if George had this white board with “metal af Viking funeral pyre” ending for Qui-Gon and only remembered later that all the Jedi in the OT vaporized and went “oh fuck, Uh Qui-Gon’s ghost invented it”
Remember the Wonder Twins? It's like that but dumber.
It's got everything to do with Force ghosts. We've always known that it was new, ever since Vader's confusion over Ben's empty robes. Now we know why. The Jedi didn't just hide, they changed. Attributing that change to the one Jedi that didn't preach detachment was a good idea.
We have? Cause this is honestly the first I've ever heard of this take. Jedi essentially ascending to another plane of existence upon death seems perfectly in line with the vague pseduo-eastern mysticism of Star Wars and Vaders confusion at wtf happened pretty obviously flows from him being a bad guy force-user and thus not enlightened enough to understand what is going on. It's all pretty straightforward and never needed any explanation. Not unlike, again, the midichlorians issue.
I have no idea what the rest of what you were talking about has to do with the force ghosts either. There's no competing philosophies here that I can see. It's just "dead jedi still live on and are able to influence the world because they are that connected with the Force". Every jedi we see in the OT goes out that way.
I don't know what to tell you, they talk openly about Qui-Gon's different philosophy from the opening scene of TPM. Of course I've got no way to prove this, but I walked out of that movie wondering if Qui-Gon's line about present vs future was the catalyst for Obi Wan learning to ghost. When his voice was heard in AotC, I was pretty sure I was right. Now, RotS dropped the final reveal in some shitty Yoda dialogue, sure. And nothing in the PT is done with grace. But yes, we've always known that Obi Wan and Vader were friends as well as master and student. It's always been clear that Obi Wan dropped some new knowledge on Vader, the former Jedi that would know about vanishing bodies. When Qui-Gon failed to disappear, we knew it was because that shit wasn't invented yet.
A New Hope is fundamentally altered by Empire making Vader Luke's father and a former Jedi which takes your reading of Vader's reaction as initially correct but not really logical ever since.
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Qui-Gon isn't openly talking about different philosophies in TPM. It's one line and it's basically just "concentrate on what you are doing right now dude and listen to the Force".
And again, I have literally never heard a single person ever question Obi-Wan disappearing in ANH before you did right here. It was never a mystery and it's never needed explaining. It's just an illustration of how Vader's arrogance about his understanding of the Force is misplaced and how Obi-wan is actually the wise master who still knows more. Vader's evil and so he's not enlightened enough to get it so he's confused by what happens to Obi-Wan. These guys are warrior-monks straight out of a kung fu movie but in spaaaaaace. Of course the master knows shit the students don't expect or have ever seen before. The line setting up this whole thing is Vader being all "Now I'm the master!" and Obi-wan being all "Pfft, you don't know shit dude." And this is actually reinforced in ESB where Yoda talks about how the dark side is the easy way to power. Faster, easier, more seductive, but not more powerful. Vader took the shortcut to power. He doesn't actually understand the force like the Jedi master's do.
It's a bit questionable, but 'Anakin (not Vader)' is still (probably) the Chosen One and had the whole interaction with balance on Mortis to put him in the right place to become a Force Ghost. Qui-Gon half got it by just being in balance with the Force and having some weird mystical experiences, and he's not got a fraction of the Force oomph or destiny on him Anakin did.
Alternatively, look forward to it being explained in a comic or novel with him exploring it after ANH because it seems like he would probably do some research at that point.
Actually that sounds kind of fun, I want to see him completely stumped by the Force priestesses and left to just wonder what the hell just happened.
I can't control for what you have and have not heard, dude. All I know is I've heard it, plenty.
My Cal is a useless twit of a Jedi, flailing around ineptly with a Lightsaber (I got killed by a jumped up Prarie Dog over the weekend, for fucks sake) until I mysteriously get the timing right on a block & counter and then Cal is complete badass. :razz:
"You've taken your first step into a larger world."
I think the reason I like this arc while a lot of other people don't is because the entire thing has the feel of one of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion crossover chapters.
I guess I like the fact that, every once in awhile, the Star Wars universe can cut loose and Get Weird. Other folks might not appreciate the divergence from the normal plots, but I for one am onboard with Filoni-ism.
EDIT: One more thing:
Some things "make sense". If you have enough presence of mind to wonder, "Why are Empire's predominant star destroyers still around thirty years later?" You probably wouldn't be surprised by some relevant basics of naval engineering and warfare. We, on Earth, use warships for more than thirty years all the time. The famed Ticonderoga-class of missile cruiser, which is boasted as "very modern", were first launched 37 years ago. And there are older ships. You recognized the star destroyer was from the past films--you would also probably remember that they were big, fast, and tough as hell as far as large capital ships were concerned (not that they were invulnerable, but that's mostly owed to almost every other type of warship being worse). So an ISD reappearing is oddly sensible.
What doesn't make sense is scaling the same design--using almost the same model--1.5 time. Or turning it into a mini-Deathstar. Or both. Those don't hold up to scrutiny. The age is not so much a problem as the context. Lightsabers, after all, are thousands of years old. But apparently, only bad guys can use red lightsabers now because of rules.
They just wanted bigger windows.