Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
One thing that has popped up in my mind recently is how Blizzard adhered to the mantra of, "Easy to learn, difficult to master" when developing this game. I think they may have leaned too far in both directions.
They made the game both too simple on its surface and too complicated to easily master. It's actually kind of amazing how straightforward this game feels when you first start playing, and yet how much depth there is to understand if you want to meaningfully climb, particularly past Gold. Between the different maps and the talent trees and the opacity of shared XP, people can easily play this game thinking they have "mastered" its fundamentals only to miss huge swaths of what actually determines the outcomes of games.
If you never play Zeratul you might think you understand the hero but in actuality you probably never looked at his talent tree, and yet he actually plays very differently depending upon his build, because the number of teleports you count and their various locations matter, as does whether or not you can clump up against him. If you play Battlefied of Eternity exactly like you play Tomb of the Spider Queen then you are probably not playing either map particularly well. Stuff like this permeates the game, and in modes like Quick Match you can forget about people understanding or even being aware that these are considerations, in favor of, "OMG u not show up to obj report for afk u suck".
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
To be honest I think the biggest mistake they made was mounts.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I agree and "opacity" is exactly the right word to use. Its fine too hide details if a user is not interested at the moment, but if they are interested it should be near instantaneous to find information.
For example:
- you know how after you take a camp ot counts down to when it's available next? It should do that from the very start of the game to the first spawn.
- mousing over the xp bar tells you how much you got from hero kills, buildings, etc... If you hold the mouse there longer it should give you a pie chart of how much each member of you're team contributed to it. Similarly, mousing over the xp line item in the scoreboard should give you a breakdown how much of that came from minions, buildings, heroes, whatever.
- all heroes should display the damage taken line. Mousing over it should tell you how much was from other heroes, how much from minions, how much from mercs, buildings, etc... Holding it there longer shoot give you further breakdown of unavoidable damage (aa, point and click) vs skillshot.
- pve damage column needs to have a tooltop how much went into minions, buildings, mercs, objective
- mousing over healing needs to show who the heals went into (as in which target) and when held longer show real heal vs overheal. Similarly for casted shields, how much of them actually absorbed vs target not actually getting hot with the shield on.
- mousing over deaths should show how much time into the match each death occurred and how much xp it gave the enemy team, and how long the res wait was
- clicking a minion, hero, or building currently gives a little display indicating how much dmg it does, range, xp, etc... It should also lost his much xp it works give your team were it to dye right now. Looking at this info on friendly trashers should tell you how much it works give the enemy.
- clicking any of the aforementioned xp values should tell you how much of a level-up that is/was at the time (i.e. 20% of level 4 to 5).
Not obtrusive but easy and fast to dig into if wanted.
Some basic UI elements would help. One quick one I'd love to see, is the mini-map ping/sfx from the StarCraft II campaign when something new shows up. You can see it here at 10:41:
Have a ping like that, with or without sound, when camps come off cooldown. I mean, HotS was build on the SC2 engine, so it's got to be possible. You can even make it a toggle for players that don't want it.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Oh, let’s also add arrows in lanes that aren’t being soaked. Use the existing lava wave UI and have the arrows go from yellow, orange, to red over time.
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Some basic UI elements would help. One quick one I'd love to see, is the mini-map ping/sfx from the StarCraft II campaign when something new shows up. You can see it here at 10:41:
Have a ping like that, with or without sound, when camps come off cooldown. I mean, HotS was build on the SC2 engine, so it's got to be possible. You can even make it a toggle for players that don't want it.
I would def see this on objectives. Both when they start spawning, and when they become active.
Telling randos 'hey there will be fighting here' will bring the potatoes like moth to a flame.
There are people out there, right now
who unironically believe that Hinterlands Blast is the better ult
The horror!!
Those same people prefer Snowball over Ice Wall, ignore Void Prison, and think that Triple Tap is worth a damn.
MNC Dover on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
To be fair, they may not think it's the better ult, but they may think it's the better ult for them.
But yeah, Gust is always better unless your team has amazing initiation CC already and they never need a counter-engage. Which is like...5% of matches?
- Gusting towards your team won’t be capitalized on, and will likely get an ally killed instead.
- Gusting off certain objectives is good, but very situational, and again probably won’t be followed up on.
- Hinterlands is very good at hitting low-hp back line mages who don’t sidestep anything.
Is there ever any reason to take Stitches' bile ult?
I would take it 9 times out of 10. Gorge just doesn't do much in my opinion, especially if you've lost walls pre-10.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
There's an argument to be made that if you're taking Stitches you're playing for picks, in which case Gorge is the better ult to guarantee that the hook target dies.
But at lower levels of play Stitches is criminally underrated given his massive health pool and sustain. He can just sit there and soak damage forever, which is far more valuable when neither team can focus fire or follow up on initiation CC.
Getting an auto-kill pick with Gorge is ideal, but I think its utility extends beyond that. At the very worst, you're taking an enemy hero out of a fight for 4 seconds with a stasis. That's to say nothing of it's level 20 talent, where it basically turns into Zeratul's void prison with a ton more control and without enemy heroes being able to opt-in to the stasis.
Is there ever any reason to take Stitches' bile ult?
So, I love Stitches. He's the first Tank in Heroes of the Storm that I ever gravitated towards. In fact, as I recall, he was one of my first ever level 15 / Master Skin character (maybe second behind Nazeebo). This was probably because I came from DotA, and already had a bunch of Pudge games under my belt. It just felt like a natural character to learn a new game on, with a skillset I largely already understood. Having said that, he's in kind of an awkward spot right now. I know a lot of folks loved his redesign, but I've always been kind of on the fence about the loss of his original Slam build. In my opinion, that's what made him threatening outside of his Hook / pickoff potential; just lots of up-front Slam damage, slows, poison DoTs, etc. There still exists a Slam build you can take on modern Stitches, but it pales in comparison to the original in terms of ... well, I mean, everything. Anyway, I'm telling you all of this to let you know I have some experience on the character, and can relate first-hand that there's really not many times when I'd ever pick Bile.
So, let's think about what Bile does, right? For 8 seconds, you grant a movement speed advantage by spreading goop around on the ground. This slows enemy movement and increases yours. It does damage, but its honestly so little that I consider it a non-factor. You can use this to help slip a gank (slowing their movement by 35% while increasing yours by 20% is a 55% move speed advantage in your favor), but also you might use it to zone for your backline in a teamfight, or just let it rip to cause problems for melee. When might be an ideal time to pick Bile? Think about which characters need movement speed to be effective: basically, all Melee Assassins and a bunch of Bruisers. Those characters need movement speed, or snares (or both!), built into their base kits, otherwise they can't get on their targets.
Sonya? Bonus movement speed when she uses an ability is literally her Trait.
Thrall? Windfury and Wolf roots.
Imperius? Gap closer and stun with Spear.
etc
Those kinds of heroes are exponentially more adversely affected by movement speed debuffs than other characters, because they rely more on movement speed to be effective than do most other heroes. So there's definitely a case to be made for a situation in which you're up against a bunch of melee dive. But I'd argue that Stiches, with as little peel potential as he has in his kit, isn't the Tank you'd want to pick in that scenario, regardless. Still, QM is a thing, and obviously there will be times when you might find yourself in that situation. Maybe then Bile could be effective. I still think Gorge is the better option, though, just because it has so much more utility:
I can't tell you how many losing matches I've dragged out of the gutter by hitting 10 and scoring Gorges over my walls against teams that are being aggressive and trying to push advantage that they've earned from previous victories. Actually, for a long time, Stitches was an auto-pick for me on Volskaya, just because of how close the objectives are to your walls / Forts, and because there are no enemy minions to block line of sight on them, such as on other maps like Infernal Shrines. The pickoff potential there is crazy. Just Hook into the objective, nothing's going to get in your way, and Gorge over the walls. Now it's a 4v5. All you have to do in that scenario is not lose your Fort / Walls ahead of an objective (so just don't lose aggressively).
You can also use Gorge to negate dangerous enemy ults. For example: Zul'jin enters Taz'dingo; Butcher initiates on your backline with Lamb; Illidan jumps in with Stim Drone; Kerrigan pops Omegastorm; etc. Stitches is also incredibly effective against Mephisto. This is actually something I've learned from playing Brawls repeatedly -- Stitches completely fucking bodies Mephisto, and totally shuts down his offense post-10. Basically, whenever Mephisto jumps in with Shade and starts trying to deal damage, you just Gorge him. Because he's in your belly, he won't teleport back to his starting position, and he's completely fucked. Like actually completely fucked. Whenever you see a Stitches pick Bile over Gorge against a Mephisto (or, for the same reason, when an Anub'arak picks Locust Swarm over Cocoon against him), you're well within your rights to cringe about it, lol.
So, to answer your question: is there ever any reason to take Bile over Gorge? I guess the answer is Yes, but it remains pretty niche. If you find yourself in a position where your team needs a beefy frontline character that can AoE slow the enemy team with an ult, you're likely better off with Thrall. Or Xul, if you need that same utility on basic abilities while also having waveclear, and you don't mind waiting a few extra levels for it, in exchange for some raw damage potential.
He's not terrible in the offlane, if that's where you need to play him. But you wouldn't ever want to have him dual soak unless you were truly desperate for it because nobody else will. Stitches has high HP and can restore a large % of it with a basic ability, so you can get aggressive on your lane opponent and force them away from Globe drops. Ideally, you want to position him forward and zone enemies away from XP orbs and whatnot. Pretty similar to the way you have to play Thrall, since he also lacks waveclear but can trade efficiently. Played well, this means you get double the Globes and your opponent gets none.
Try control creep equilibrium in your lane so they're positioned more toward your walls. Stitches lacks mobility, so if you let the opponent drag you to their side of the lane, you're open to ganks. If your minions get cleared, position yourself just outside of your tower range and just let the enemy creeps hit you until your next wave arrives. You've got enough HP for it, don't worry. You're just looking to stall the wave so that your towers aren't killing it, and from then on, you just have to kind of prune away ranged minions so they don't kill your waves too quickly. Just keep the lane positioned like that, and you're solid. If the enemy wants XP, they have to come to your side of the lane and that accordingly opens them up for ganks and disadvantageous trades from you.
Again, it works, but you wouldn't wanna have to do it unless you had to.
Speaking of Stitches, if you can pair up with an Alexstraza and both take their respective Globe quests at level one, well...let's just say things can get very silly, very fast.
Here Fan ends a 20 minute game on Braxis with 93 globes for an even 10,000 hp. And that's with him dying twice in the mid to late game, meaning the potential loss of ~20 or so globes. Of course, Braxis inflates the numbers a bit due to the globe generators, but still, that's a metric ton of HP.
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Most of those I can understand since they can solo body a team in potato league. D.Va, though? Is she still OP? I thought she had been scaled back to reasonableness after her initial rework/overbuffing last year. I don't play SL though so I haven't seen if she's still too good for myself.
Tass also seems like a bit of a surprise to me. Maybe just too annoying/risky if the other team has a one-trick Tass or smurf who can just dominate with perfect walls and black holes?
Dva is easy to play and hard to kill. Her waveclear is solid and she can rotate to double soak effectively. Overall though, she still is stuck in people’s head from her OP phase.
Tass is safe to play and punished bad positioning which happens a lot on Silver. The wall is also big and obvious for follow up. Someone dives in and doesn’t have support, they get walled off and die.
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Kael is an appropriate ban in Silver, for certain. He has a very strong early game (infinite harass with DW, pick potential with DE, and solid waveclear), which transitions into a great mid game with either ultimate, and an exceptionally safe / powerful late game with stacked Arcane Barrier and Flamethrower (or even Infinite Bombs, since it's Silver). He's just so good for how easy he is to play, and he's also the kind of character that gains exponential value if the enemy team is bad. So he's just a nightmare to behold in Silver.
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They made the game both too simple on its surface and too complicated to easily master. It's actually kind of amazing how straightforward this game feels when you first start playing, and yet how much depth there is to understand if you want to meaningfully climb, particularly past Gold. Between the different maps and the talent trees and the opacity of shared XP, people can easily play this game thinking they have "mastered" its fundamentals only to miss huge swaths of what actually determines the outcomes of games.
If you never play Zeratul you might think you understand the hero but in actuality you probably never looked at his talent tree, and yet he actually plays very differently depending upon his build, because the number of teleports you count and their various locations matter, as does whether or not you can clump up against him. If you play Battlefied of Eternity exactly like you play Tomb of the Spider Queen then you are probably not playing either map particularly well. Stuff like this permeates the game, and in modes like Quick Match you can forget about people understanding or even being aware that these are considerations, in favor of, "OMG u not show up to obj report for afk u suck".
For example:
- you know how after you take a camp ot counts down to when it's available next? It should do that from the very start of the game to the first spawn.
- mousing over the xp bar tells you how much you got from hero kills, buildings, etc... If you hold the mouse there longer it should give you a pie chart of how much each member of you're team contributed to it. Similarly, mousing over the xp line item in the scoreboard should give you a breakdown how much of that came from minions, buildings, heroes, whatever.
- all heroes should display the damage taken line. Mousing over it should tell you how much was from other heroes, how much from minions, how much from mercs, buildings, etc... Holding it there longer shoot give you further breakdown of unavoidable damage (aa, point and click) vs skillshot.
- pve damage column needs to have a tooltop how much went into minions, buildings, mercs, objective
- mousing over healing needs to show who the heals went into (as in which target) and when held longer show real heal vs overheal. Similarly for casted shields, how much of them actually absorbed vs target not actually getting hot with the shield on.
- mousing over deaths should show how much time into the match each death occurred and how much xp it gave the enemy team, and how long the res wait was
- clicking a minion, hero, or building currently gives a little display indicating how much dmg it does, range, xp, etc... It should also lost his much xp it works give your team were it to dye right now. Looking at this info on friendly trashers should tell you how much it works give the enemy.
- clicking any of the aforementioned xp values should tell you how much of a level-up that is/was at the time (i.e. 20% of level 4 to 5).
Not obtrusive but easy and fast to dig into if wanted.
Have a ping like that, with or without sound, when camps come off cooldown. I mean, HotS was build on the SC2 engine, so it's got to be possible. You can even make it a toggle for players that don't want it.
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I think it does? But not in the first 10-15 seconds in the game or whatever
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It does do that. I know because I am very meticulous about hitting the first camp as SOON as it spawns on maps like DShire
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I would def see this on objectives. Both when they start spawning, and when they become active.
Telling randos 'hey there will be fighting here' will bring the potatoes like moth to a flame.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
There are people out there, right now
who unironically believe that Hinterlands Blast is the better ult
HEY SOMETIMES IT'S GOOD
uhhh but yeah most of the time i do lean Gust BUT I MEAN HEY I'VE GOTTEN LOTS OF SNIPES AND KILLS WITH HINTERLAND
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
The horror!!
Those same people prefer Snowball over Ice Wall, ignore Void Prison, and think that Triple Tap is worth a damn.
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But yeah, Gust is always better unless your team has amazing initiation CC already and they never need a counter-engage. Which is like...5% of matches?
Yeah, I always take Triple Tap when I'm really pissed off at walls.
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I.e. "fuck that guy in particular" ult.
- Gusting towards your team won’t be capitalized on, and will likely get an ally killed instead.
- Gusting off certain objectives is good, but very situational, and again probably won’t be followed up on.
- Hinterlands is very good at hitting low-hp back line mages who don’t sidestep anything.
Also, this happened:
Edit: Falstad's so easy, Fan can play Loop Hero while double soaking and wiping out nerds in Gold.
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I would take it 9 times out of 10. Gorge just doesn't do much in my opinion, especially if you've lost walls pre-10.
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But at lower levels of play Stitches is criminally underrated given his massive health pool and sustain. He can just sit there and soak damage forever, which is far more valuable when neither team can focus fire or follow up on initiation CC.
So, I love Stitches. He's the first Tank in Heroes of the Storm that I ever gravitated towards. In fact, as I recall, he was one of my first ever level 15 / Master Skin character (maybe second behind Nazeebo). This was probably because I came from DotA, and already had a bunch of Pudge games under my belt. It just felt like a natural character to learn a new game on, with a skillset I largely already understood. Having said that, he's in kind of an awkward spot right now. I know a lot of folks loved his redesign, but I've always been kind of on the fence about the loss of his original Slam build. In my opinion, that's what made him threatening outside of his Hook / pickoff potential; just lots of up-front Slam damage, slows, poison DoTs, etc. There still exists a Slam build you can take on modern Stitches, but it pales in comparison to the original in terms of ... well, I mean, everything. Anyway, I'm telling you all of this to let you know I have some experience on the character, and can relate first-hand that there's really not many times when I'd ever pick Bile.
So, let's think about what Bile does, right? For 8 seconds, you grant a movement speed advantage by spreading goop around on the ground. This slows enemy movement and increases yours. It does damage, but its honestly so little that I consider it a non-factor. You can use this to help slip a gank (slowing their movement by 35% while increasing yours by 20% is a 55% move speed advantage in your favor), but also you might use it to zone for your backline in a teamfight, or just let it rip to cause problems for melee. When might be an ideal time to pick Bile? Think about which characters need movement speed to be effective: basically, all Melee Assassins and a bunch of Bruisers. Those characters need movement speed, or snares (or both!), built into their base kits, otherwise they can't get on their targets.
Sonya? Bonus movement speed when she uses an ability is literally her Trait.
Thrall? Windfury and Wolf roots.
Imperius? Gap closer and stun with Spear.
etc
Those kinds of heroes are exponentially more adversely affected by movement speed debuffs than other characters, because they rely more on movement speed to be effective than do most other heroes. So there's definitely a case to be made for a situation in which you're up against a bunch of melee dive. But I'd argue that Stiches, with as little peel potential as he has in his kit, isn't the Tank you'd want to pick in that scenario, regardless. Still, QM is a thing, and obviously there will be times when you might find yourself in that situation. Maybe then Bile could be effective. I still think Gorge is the better option, though, just because it has so much more utility:
I can't tell you how many losing matches I've dragged out of the gutter by hitting 10 and scoring Gorges over my walls against teams that are being aggressive and trying to push advantage that they've earned from previous victories. Actually, for a long time, Stitches was an auto-pick for me on Volskaya, just because of how close the objectives are to your walls / Forts, and because there are no enemy minions to block line of sight on them, such as on other maps like Infernal Shrines. The pickoff potential there is crazy. Just Hook into the objective, nothing's going to get in your way, and Gorge over the walls. Now it's a 4v5. All you have to do in that scenario is not lose your Fort / Walls ahead of an objective (so just don't lose aggressively).
You can also use Gorge to negate dangerous enemy ults. For example: Zul'jin enters Taz'dingo; Butcher initiates on your backline with Lamb; Illidan jumps in with Stim Drone; Kerrigan pops Omegastorm; etc. Stitches is also incredibly effective against Mephisto. This is actually something I've learned from playing Brawls repeatedly -- Stitches completely fucking bodies Mephisto, and totally shuts down his offense post-10. Basically, whenever Mephisto jumps in with Shade and starts trying to deal damage, you just Gorge him. Because he's in your belly, he won't teleport back to his starting position, and he's completely fucked. Like actually completely fucked. Whenever you see a Stitches pick Bile over Gorge against a Mephisto (or, for the same reason, when an Anub'arak picks Locust Swarm over Cocoon against him), you're well within your rights to cringe about it, lol.
So, to answer your question: is there ever any reason to take Bile over Gorge? I guess the answer is Yes, but it remains pretty niche. If you find yourself in a position where your team needs a beefy frontline character that can AoE slow the enemy team with an ult, you're likely better off with Thrall. Or Xul, if you need that same utility on basic abilities while also having waveclear, and you don't mind waiting a few extra levels for it, in exchange for some raw damage potential.
Try control creep equilibrium in your lane so they're positioned more toward your walls. Stitches lacks mobility, so if you let the opponent drag you to their side of the lane, you're open to ganks. If your minions get cleared, position yourself just outside of your tower range and just let the enemy creeps hit you until your next wave arrives. You've got enough HP for it, don't worry. You're just looking to stall the wave so that your towers aren't killing it, and from then on, you just have to kind of prune away ranged minions so they don't kill your waves too quickly. Just keep the lane positioned like that, and you're solid. If the enemy wants XP, they have to come to your side of the lane and that accordingly opens them up for ganks and disadvantageous trades from you.
Again, it works, but you wouldn't wanna have to do it unless you had to.
Here Fan ends a 20 minute game on Braxis with 93 globes for an even 10,000 hp. And that's with him dying twice in the mid to late game, meaning the potential loss of ~20 or so globes. Of course, Braxis inflates the numbers a bit due to the globe generators, but still, that's a metric ton of HP.
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FTFY
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Of course, most of that is due to the GREAT HOOKS by Groove's Stitches.
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I'm continued to be shocked that he gets through as well. Top bans right now are (in no order): Kael, Gaz, D.Va, Li-Ming, Varian, and Tass.
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Tass also seems like a bit of a surprise to me. Maybe just too annoying/risky if the other team has a one-trick Tass or smurf who can just dominate with perfect walls and black holes?
I usually ban gaz first, then Kael if the enemy team doesn't. If they do then I ban falstad.
I prioritize kael because while falstad can kill me. Kael gives my team the ability to kill me. And the rest of us.
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Tass is safe to play and punished bad positioning which happens a lot on Silver. The wall is also big and obvious for follow up. Someone dives in and doesn’t have support, they get walled off and die.
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It used to be!
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