It's a pretty understandable assumption that given enough advancement, any humans would be assholes.
Though it does dilute the idea of entirely different races/species of people if they... are just assholes, like humans.
Trolls were there first though.
A few weeks ago when I started my push to get my alts to 120, I got the first of them to WOD. When opening the portal at the garrison, Baros Alexston comes walking through and he says, "Let's take this world for the Alliance!" Not "let's stop the Iron Horde," not "let's help the Draenei and other denizens." Literally "TIME TO IMPERIALIZE, BOYS."
Will always remember Taran Zhu in MoP getting angry and outright calling the Horde/Alliance conflict a race war that they would have no part of. That always stuck with me - partly because it showed a certain level of self-awareness.
Of course, that never went anywhere. But hey, it was a good moment.
It's a pretty understandable assumption that given enough advancement, any humans would be assholes.
Though it does dilute the idea of entirely different races/species of people if they... are just assholes, like humans.
Trolls were there first though.
A few weeks ago when I started my push to get my alts to 120, I got the first of them to WOD. When opening the portal at the garrison, Baros Alexston comes walking through and he says, "Let's take this world for the Alliance!" Not "let's stop the Iron Horde," not "let's help the Draenei and other denizens." Literally "TIME TO IMPERIALIZE, BOYS."
Will always remember Taran Zhu in MoP getting angry and outright calling the Horde/Alliance conflict a race war that they would have no part of. That always stuck with me - partly because it showed a certain level of self-awareness.
Of course, that never went anywhere. But hey, it was a good moment.
It's one of those things where giving a nod to acknowledge the existence of a viewpoint counts as "supporting it," from a corporate standing. Meanwhile the rest of us are here screaming "DO BETTER."
Also it was undermined because later we found out that the reason why Pandaria was isolated from the world is that Emperor Shaolao did the same as Genn Greymane: He isolated his nation from the world, only with magic mists (using the Mistweaver artifact) because he thought that his nation was better than everybody else. Which is why he was never able to beat the Sha of Pride.
Decent evidence they were better than everyone else tbh
Pandaria has its issues with the
Mantid but seems to have a handle on them, and they discovered they could defeat the sha just by like, elevating ‘be nice to each other’ to a universal law
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Survival is another of those specs I really enjoy playing while I'm leveling alts, but never get to actually play since I don't DPS (and haven't put much time into PvP in a long time).
Give every class a healing spec and a tanking spec Blizzard. As a personal favor to me, specifically.
I really want to main Survival this expansion, but it's just never going to be meta outside of arenas, is it?
Well, that depends on what you're going to do with it. Hard on mythic prog and pushing top m+ keys? Yeah that's probably not going to happen until you're doing mythic farm and people are screwing around. Nothing higher than heroic raid and whatever level dungeons? Your only struggle will be convincing bone headed pugs if you don't group with friends and guildies.
Survival is another of those specs I really enjoy playing while I'm leveling alts, but never get to actually play since I don't DPS (and haven't put much time into PvP in a long time).
Give every class a healing spec and a tanking spec Blizzard. As a personal favor to me, specifically.
Really I got one of my hunters to 120 but I have played them as Beastmastery since TBC
I feel BFA really phoned it in again on Hunters as marksmen and survival area as well meh
They can't balance six tanks, I don't want to see a seventh.
Same goes for healers.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I don't remember who was talking about this on here, sorry, but (Arthas/Jailer/Shadowlands speculation)
there's been some speculation, recently more or less confirmed in the novels, that the Dreadlords aren't demons, but actually work for the Jailer (and the Jailer is one). Further, everything that's happened: the Burning Legion, the war, everything, has been because the Dreardlords wanted it.
SO. Why this matters: the recent Uther short where Frostmourne having a Maw rune was a retcon. Except, if the Dreadlords manipulated the Burning Legion into all of this and are working with the Jailer, that ain't a retcon at all! All part of the LONG CON, BABY
Honestly if that ends up being the case...yeah. I'm okay with that as a story beat.
Please no fucking Shaman or Hunter tank specs jesus christ that makes no sense.
Does a shamanistic warrior infusing his shield with the elements - enduring like a rock, striking like a wave, moving like lightning - really make any less sense than almost every other tank? Where DKs are like 'hurt me more daddy,' demon hunters flip around with the power of neon green gatorade, monks chug booze to ignore their brain damage, paladins are warriors that have found jesus, and the druid solution to armed combat is to get hit a lot but it's okay - they can heal because they're angry enough.
I think a tank that interacts with a pet could be dope! And having an earth element shaman tank would be super cool. I don't care if they can't balance the ones they have... They've never been able to balance anything.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Yeah, no, I'm really not down with another class I play losing a spec to make yet another god damn tank in a game where you have two tanks, absolute maximum, in any group.
Why are people so fucking horned up to turn DPS specs into tank specs?
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
Also, a lot of toxicity doesn't come from the actual top.
Cutting Edge players, by the most part, do not play in PuGs. You see it on several Preach videos, when he sees the hate that "elitists" get and he's like: "What the hell are you talking about? We don't play with you at all". And he's serious, remember a dungeon video when he's like "What the hell is Raider.IO?", since people on solid guilds by the most part don't need Raider.IO. BUT, there's a considerable amount of chuds that think that just because they killed the first 3 bosses or whatever on Mythic of the current raid, bosses that are puggable, they are hot shit.
I wanted to make this point, that most of the high level toxicity comes from people who actually are not part of the high level but perceive themselves as if they are.
Then I kinda thought that was me being toxic downward, by gatekeeping what "high level" is, so thought maybe I won't make the point.
Probably would have been fine.
I mean, that's why 'try-hard' became a derisive term, isn't it? Because the people who aren't top-tier, but are trying to become that, are the most likely to behave in a toxic manner to people at their level and lower for 'holding them back'.
That certainly seemed to be peoples' experience with the Overwatch community when I was following those threads regularly. Masters/Grand Masters wasn't where you'd run into a lot of jerks, it was among the players trying to climb the ladder.
I'm not talking about getting rid of any specs? I'm talking about cramming more in because I don't play pure DPS except to level, so personally I'd like them to cram some more in so there's a better chance I really like the combo of healing/tanking spec+solo spec for a particular class in a particular patch.
And yeah fuck it some of them will be bad more often than they're good, that's how the game's always worked. And if they only suck too much for Mythic raiding, that still makes them an option for the other 99% of the playerbase in those patches where they're bad.
There are 7 tanks, 6 healers, 14 melee, and 11 ranged. It's okay to have more specs than you need.
Kamar on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Blizzard is not going to just add more specs if they add more tanks, they're just going to convert existing specs (see Survival).
We really do not need more goddamned tank specs in a game where you are strictly limited in how many tanks you can bring.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I probably sound a little angry, and it's because I am! Because we already have way too many tank specs (because WoW does not let you take more than 2 tanks to any raid, and 1 tank to any dungeon), and people are somehow STILL antsy to have DPS specs turn into tank specs (they're not going to add more specs to existing classes. they're fucking not. you're fucking dreaming if you think this would ever be a thing) because I guess they want to have more specs not getting taken to raid because there are only two tank slots?
I really don't fucking get it. Stop with this shit. Yell at Blizzard about a) important things b) that have a chance of actually happening. Not this weird dreamscape bullshit.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
also, creating new tank specs doesn't create more tank players. it just spreads the existing pool of tanks thinner.
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
Orcs are despoilers of land they occupy, even prior to being corrupted by the demons. Trolls are constantly at war with everyone else and each other and using dangerous magics. The Forsaken were developing a plague to kill the living even when Sylvanas was "good." And Goblins are fucking capitalists.
The Elves and Tauren are the only two that get a pass.
The Blood Elves imprisoned a Naaru and fed on its energy in an attempt to replace the Sunwell. So basically only the Tauren get a pass.
Also, the Blood Elves have a slave-race of leper gnomes in sweatshops in their capital city, IIRC. Unless they've removed that?
any mechanics created by adding specs or modifying them or whatever should just be incorporated into the classes which already exist; 36 playable specs is probably too many already and there's nothing to add that wouldn't be best implemented as a addition to one or more of them
I doubt we will ever see a wholesale change of a specialization a la survival, because ultimately (despite the fact that melee survival is Fun and Good) it was extremely poorly received. You might see something like Combat turning into Outlaw I guess, but even that was (imo) mostly just that combat needed a 'theme' in advance of the legion artifacts.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, no, I'm really not down with another class I play losing a spec to make yet another god damn tank in a game where you have two tanks, absolute maximum, in any group.
Why are people so fucking horned up to turn DPS specs into tank specs?
Because they think it will get more people tanking so their pugs don't take as long to fill up that last (tank) spot.
Here is the thing, though
it won't.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
if anything we need to turn some melee DPS specs into ranged DPS ones.
the game hasn't gained a single ranged DPS spec since it launched in 2004 and in fact has lost several over the course of its life, the Survival rework being the most notable one but also the less-direct method of turning holy paladins and mistweaver monks firmly into melee range healers.
I think a tank that interacts with a pet could be dope! And having an earth element shaman tank would be super cool. I don't care if they can't balance the ones they have... They've never been able to balance anything.
Remember reading that an MMO tried to have a tank spec interacting with a pet and kinda didn't worked out since healers didn't want or cared to heal the pet.
I just want a reason to play the three pure DPS classes I like to play in leveling or even PvP, but can't really justify putting much time into overall since I won't touch them for group PvE.
That said, I'd hate if people's favorite specs were ruined in the process...though I'd probably willingly sacrifice the enjoyment of everyone in this thread to the devil if I got a rogue healing spec that threw around alchemical concoctions out of the deal.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The possibility of shamans having a tank spec made sense in the Vanilla and TBC days. Then they leaned off it... then they brought Rockbiter back with the whole threat thing and muddled everyone's perception of what they wanted shamans to be all over again.
It makes perfect sense historically speaking on the class balance side. They were given a taunt, they were given shield spec, they were given damage mitigation and instant self heal options. It could've been a fourth talent spec just like how druids have four talent trees.
If I were adding new tank and healer specs as a 4th spec, I'd try out the following concepts:
Shaman: Earth Element Tank
Hunter: Healer that heals by shooting syringes, laying healing traps, and using pets that heal instead of deal damage
Rogue: Healer that does their best healing in melee range and has fun movement and damage dodging tricks to make that manageable
Mage: Healer that heals by reversing time
Warlock: Tank where the Warlock and their demon share one life pool and they can possess their demon to enter "tank stance" and split to be in "dps stance"
I wanted a mail tank and a cloth tank so those armor types would each finally get a tank, but I didn't want both of the pet classes to be tanks. So in the battle between Warlock/Shaman and Mage/Hunter to get a tank spec, the former made the most sense. Also I wanted all of the pure DPS classes to get a non-DPS spec and the only tanking idea I could think up for Rogue was being a dodge tank, so they got a Healing spec as well.
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
I probably sound a little angry, and it's because I am! Because we already have way too many tank specs (because WoW does not let you take more than 2 tanks to any raid, and 1 tank to any dungeon), and people are somehow STILL antsy to have DPS specs turn into tank specs (they're not going to add more specs to existing classes. they're fucking not. you're fucking dreaming if you think this would ever be a thing) because I guess they want to have more specs not getting taken to raid because there are only two tank slots?
I really don't fucking get it. Stop with this shit. Yell at Blizzard about a) important things b) that have a chance of actually happening. Not this weird dreamscape bullshit.
But why though? People armchair-design and wishlist things they know are a pipedream all the time. It's fun to do. I really don't see the point in getting angry about it? They didn't make a petition or start a post on the official forums, for fuck's sake. Also, it's kind of silly to keep complaining that someone is asking for specs to be turned into something else after they explicitly said they meant adding 4th specs? Sure, that's not going to happen*, but that's what they are talking about.
Like it's one thing to make the counterpoints of why it would be detrimental for Blizzard to actually do that, it's another thing entirely to get mad at someone for even talking about the idea (and I feel like Kamar's original post was half in jest).
*Although, I can think of a number of things people said 'Blizzard would never do' over the years that ended up happening. Granted, it's not always quite the way people were thinking of; for example, the playable Pandaren's faction situation was an idea people spit-balled for playable Goblins over on WoWhead's forums back during late TBC or early Wrath.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Well twist of twists. I have a priest at max level, of all classes. Up until now it's the one class I've tried that I never had it in me to get past level 40-something.
Of the original set of classes all I have left is mage, warlock, and paladin. I have a Demon Hunter on a Horde server at max level already, and don't have any active monks or DKs.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I probably sound a little angry, and it's because I am! Because we already have way too many tank specs (because WoW does not let you take more than 2 tanks to any raid, and 1 tank to any dungeon), and people are somehow STILL antsy to have DPS specs turn into tank specs (they're not going to add more specs to existing classes. they're fucking not. you're fucking dreaming if you think this would ever be a thing) because I guess they want to have more specs not getting taken to raid because there are only two tank slots?
I really don't fucking get it. Stop with this shit. Yell at Blizzard about a) important things b) that have a chance of actually happening. Not this weird dreamscape bullshit.
Oh, so you think they should remove all healers and tanks from the game and everyone should be dps? People like you make me so angery!!!
also, creating new tank specs doesn't create more tank players. it just spreads the existing pool of tanks thinner.
It might not convert more people into people willing to do the role (I think it would create a few out of players who only have a hunter at cap), but as someone who plays all roles, if I had a tank spec option on my hunter I'd for sure use it just like I use prot way more than arms and fury on my warrior, because dps queues.
I think a tank that interacts with a pet could be dope! And having an earth element shaman tank would be super cool. I don't care if they can't balance the ones they have... They've never been able to balance anything.
Remember reading that an MMO tried to have a tank spec interacting with a pet and kinda didn't worked out since healers didn't want or cared to heal the pet.
This is entirely solvable, just need traits that cause healing to go from the player to the pet as well in some fashion along with damage.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I can say this. I very much divert away from pure dps classes because of the lack of needed roles for dungeons.
Btw, people can easily be dps in raids and tanks or healers in dungeons. Not sure how the 2 tanks per raid thing is some kind of barrier. I almost always keep my non dps specs fully prepared.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I probably sound a little angry, and it's because I am! Because we already have way too many tank specs (because WoW does not let you take more than 2 tanks to any raid, and 1 tank to any dungeon), and people are somehow STILL antsy to have DPS specs turn into tank specs (they're not going to add more specs to existing classes. they're fucking not. you're fucking dreaming if you think this would ever be a thing) because I guess they want to have more specs not getting taken to raid because there are only two tank slots?
I really don't fucking get it. Stop with this shit. Yell at Blizzard about a) important things b) that have a chance of actually happening. Not this weird dreamscape bullshit.
But why though? People armchair-design and wishlist things they know are a pipedream all the time. It's fun to do. I really don't see the point in getting angry about it? They didn't make a petition or start a post on the official forums, for fuck's sake. Also, it's kind of silly to keep complaining that someone is asking for specs to be turned into something else after they explicitly said they meant adding 4th specs? Sure, that's not going to happen*, but that's what they are talking about.
Like it's one thing to make the counterpoints of why it would be detrimental for Blizzard to actually do that, it's another thing entirely to get mad at someone for even talking about the idea (and I feel like Kamar's original post was half in jest).
*Although, I can think of a number of things people said 'Blizzard would never do' over the years that ended up happening. Granted, it's not always quite the way people were thinking of; for example, the playable Pandaren's faction situation was an idea people spit-balled for playable Goblins over on WoWhead's forums back during late TBC or early Wrath.
You're right. I was drunk and heartbroken about RBG and needed to blow off steam by screaming about something innocuous.
That said, it is annoying to hang out in Shaman discord and have a new person pop in, often multiple times a day, to go BOY HOW COOL WOULD ENHANCEMENT TANKING BE.
Giving hybrid roles to pures won't increase the available amount of tanks and healers. The next two most popular classes after Hunter are Paladin and Druid. And yet, people will not submit themselves for tanking or healing for PuGs just to get shit on by a DH that doesn't interrupt or something.
Posts
Will always remember Taran Zhu in MoP getting angry and outright calling the Horde/Alliance conflict a race war that they would have no part of. That always stuck with me - partly because it showed a certain level of self-awareness.
Of course, that never went anywhere. But hey, it was a good moment.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Pandaria has its issues with the
Mantid but seems to have a handle on them, and they discovered they could defeat the sha just by like, elevating ‘be nice to each other’ to a universal law
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Give every class a healing spec and a tanking spec Blizzard. As a personal favor to me, specifically.
Well, that depends on what you're going to do with it. Hard on mythic prog and pushing top m+ keys? Yeah that's probably not going to happen until you're doing mythic farm and people are screwing around. Nothing higher than heroic raid and whatever level dungeons? Your only struggle will be convincing bone headed pugs if you don't group with friends and guildies.
Really I got one of my hunters to 120 but I have played them as Beastmastery since TBC
I feel BFA really phoned it in again on Hunters as marksmen and survival area as well meh
Same goes for healers.
SO. Why this matters: the recent Uther short where Frostmourne having a Maw rune was a retcon. Except, if the Dreadlords manipulated the Burning Legion into all of this and are working with the Jailer, that ain't a retcon at all! All part of the LONG CON, BABY
Honestly if that ends up being the case...yeah. I'm okay with that as a story beat.
Does a shamanistic warrior infusing his shield with the elements - enduring like a rock, striking like a wave, moving like lightning - really make any less sense than almost every other tank? Where DKs are like 'hurt me more daddy,' demon hunters flip around with the power of neon green gatorade, monks chug booze to ignore their brain damage, paladins are warriors that have found jesus, and the druid solution to armed combat is to get hit a lot but it's okay - they can heal because they're angry enough.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Why are people so fucking horned up to turn DPS specs into tank specs?
I mean, that's why 'try-hard' became a derisive term, isn't it? Because the people who aren't top-tier, but are trying to become that, are the most likely to behave in a toxic manner to people at their level and lower for 'holding them back'.
That certainly seemed to be peoples' experience with the Overwatch community when I was following those threads regularly. Masters/Grand Masters wasn't where you'd run into a lot of jerks, it was among the players trying to climb the ladder.
And yeah fuck it some of them will be bad more often than they're good, that's how the game's always worked. And if they only suck too much for Mythic raiding, that still makes them an option for the other 99% of the playerbase in those patches where they're bad.
There are 7 tanks, 6 healers, 14 melee, and 11 ranged. It's okay to have more specs than you need.
We really do not need more goddamned tank specs in a game where you are strictly limited in how many tanks you can bring.
I really don't fucking get it. Stop with this shit. Yell at Blizzard about a) important things b) that have a chance of actually happening. Not this weird dreamscape bullshit.
Also, the Blood Elves have a slave-race of leper gnomes in sweatshops in their capital city, IIRC. Unless they've removed that?
I doubt we will ever see a wholesale change of a specialization a la survival, because ultimately (despite the fact that melee survival is Fun and Good) it was extremely poorly received. You might see something like Combat turning into Outlaw I guess, but even that was (imo) mostly just that combat needed a 'theme' in advance of the legion artifacts.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Because they think it will get more people tanking so their pugs don't take as long to fill up that last (tank) spot.
Here is the thing, though
the game hasn't gained a single ranged DPS spec since it launched in 2004 and in fact has lost several over the course of its life, the Survival rework being the most notable one but also the less-direct method of turning holy paladins and mistweaver monks firmly into melee range healers.
Remember reading that an MMO tried to have a tank spec interacting with a pet and kinda didn't worked out since healers didn't want or cared to heal the pet.
That said, I'd hate if people's favorite specs were ruined in the process...though I'd probably willingly sacrifice the enjoyment of everyone in this thread to the devil if I got a rogue healing spec that threw around alchemical concoctions out of the deal.
It makes perfect sense historically speaking on the class balance side. They were given a taunt, they were given shield spec, they were given damage mitigation and instant self heal options. It could've been a fourth talent spec just like how druids have four talent trees.
Shaman: Earth Element Tank
Hunter: Healer that heals by shooting syringes, laying healing traps, and using pets that heal instead of deal damage
Rogue: Healer that does their best healing in melee range and has fun movement and damage dodging tricks to make that manageable
Mage: Healer that heals by reversing time
Warlock: Tank where the Warlock and their demon share one life pool and they can possess their demon to enter "tank stance" and split to be in "dps stance"
I wanted a mail tank and a cloth tank so those armor types would each finally get a tank, but I didn't want both of the pet classes to be tanks. So in the battle between Warlock/Shaman and Mage/Hunter to get a tank spec, the former made the most sense. Also I wanted all of the pure DPS classes to get a non-DPS spec and the only tanking idea I could think up for Rogue was being a dodge tank, so they got a Healing spec as well.
But why though? People armchair-design and wishlist things they know are a pipedream all the time. It's fun to do. I really don't see the point in getting angry about it? They didn't make a petition or start a post on the official forums, for fuck's sake. Also, it's kind of silly to keep complaining that someone is asking for specs to be turned into something else after they explicitly said they meant adding 4th specs? Sure, that's not going to happen*, but that's what they are talking about.
Like it's one thing to make the counterpoints of why it would be detrimental for Blizzard to actually do that, it's another thing entirely to get mad at someone for even talking about the idea (and I feel like Kamar's original post was half in jest).
*Although, I can think of a number of things people said 'Blizzard would never do' over the years that ended up happening. Granted, it's not always quite the way people were thinking of; for example, the playable Pandaren's faction situation was an idea people spit-balled for playable Goblins over on WoWhead's forums back during late TBC or early Wrath.
Of the original set of classes all I have left is mage, warlock, and paladin. I have a Demon Hunter on a Horde server at max level already, and don't have any active monks or DKs.
Oh, so you think they should remove all healers and tanks from the game and everyone should be dps? People like you make me so angery!!!
This is entirely solvable, just need traits that cause healing to go from the player to the pet as well in some fashion along with damage.
Btw, people can easily be dps in raids and tanks or healers in dungeons. Not sure how the 2 tanks per raid thing is some kind of barrier. I almost always keep my non dps specs fully prepared.
You're right. I was drunk and heartbroken about RBG and needed to blow off steam by screaming about something innocuous.
That said, it is annoying to hang out in Shaman discord and have a new person pop in, often multiple times a day, to go BOY HOW COOL WOULD ENHANCEMENT TANKING BE.