Yeah, something happened like that in XIV a few years ago. Square released the Dark Knight class, which was like the most popular class ever at it's release. But the class is a pure tank role, and it saw a severe drop in popularity and after the newness wore off, the game was back to same ratio of tanks to DPS ratio as always.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Giving hybrid roles to pures won't increase the available amount of tanks and healers. The next two most popular classes after Hunter are Paladin and Druid. And yet, people will not submit themselves for tanking or healing for PuGs just to get shit on by a DH that doesn't interrupt or something.
They're also just really different skillsets. I've been playing DPS Shaman for a long time and I'm frankly pretty good at both Enhancement and Elemental. I don't even know where to begin playing Resto.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Giving hybrid roles to pures won't increase the available amount of tanks and healers. The next two most popular classes after Hunter are Paladin and Druid. And yet, people will not submit themselves for tanking or healing for PuGs just to get shit on by a DH that doesn't interrupt or something.
Yeah but,
Why is increasing the number of them like the binary response to this? This isn’t vanilla where you almost have to have one spec. Having alternate roles can also just mean you like to switch it up without leveling a new char you know.
That feels like a really narrow minded view of the goal there. I guess if it helps make the counter arguement though...
While I don't think giving more classes tank roles will substantially increase the number of tanks, I think it is wrong to say it will have no effect. Not having to level and gear a tank character reduces the barrier to entry which will have an effect on a large enough sample size/scale.
I know from personal experience, as a DPS main (who doesn't know the first thing about tanking), if I had a tank off spec I could see myself using it in groups with friends/guildies in content much below my gear level (perhaps M0's or low M+) to help gear alts or whatever. Hell maybe if I had some experience in that situation, queueing as a tank for dungeon finder or LFR in PuGs wouldn't be so intimidating and I could try it out for fasters queues and get myself in to tanking.
I can think of another Hellscream that was kept in chains and bled dry for the gleeful amusement of a sadistic and charismatic leader, and who also refused to ever be broken.
Really loving the father / son parallel there; I just hope they follow through appropriately and actually do something with it.
What I'm saying is that Blizzard's drawing parallels between Grom's story in Lords of War and Garrosh in Shadowlands, which I think is neat. I doubt they'll do anything about it.
Teaming up with Garrosh "Literally Screaming in Hell" Hellscream to bring out the guillotines sounds like a fun plot thread, too bad I don't trust the writing team to handle it even passably well. And 50/50 we kill him as an insane screaming dungeon boss during some sort of prison break dungeon (I have not looked at any of the actual zone or dungeon or raid reveals for SL).
They'll just flip the switch and start writing like Garrosh is redeemed now, because characters are only ever in 'bad guy' or 'good guy' mode in WoW writing, no matter how ridiculous it ends up being. Alt-Grom comes to mind.
Sylvanas was the closest they ever got to proper ambiguity, and they decided keeping that shit up was way too hard.
Kamar on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited September 2020
The only time people are bad in WoW is when the Old Gods corrupt them, directly or through chain of command.
I'm willing to bet The Jailer™ is gonna end up being an Old God, a puppet of the Old Gods, or the maker / parent of the Old Gods. Calling it now. Bonus points if the plot includes someone / something being misunderstood.
Oh neat, apparently you can get the quest for the transmog ensemble from someone else's Heroic Edition mount if you have base SL (and this is intended). They need to do the interaction to spawn the quest giver for you.
Actually, I'm curious when stores will start selling physical editions of the game. Historically it's always been Tuesday, but now with the simultaneous release it actually begins on Monday.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Aren't "physical copies" just installers that put the downloader on your machine? That's how Cataclysm worked (and it made me sad as fuck at the time given my ISP options).
The regular ones are pretty much just CD Keys in a box, yes. Collector's Editions still exist, however.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
So I just ran AQ40 to get the achievement for it out of the way. I'd never actually seen it first hand before. The slime boss in it? The most unique boss I've ever encountered in this game across so many expansions. More like that please. Thank goodness I'm playing my shaman.
They couldn't reasonably make a boss like that these days since they have to tune around smaller potential raid sizes with less access to different damage types.
Damage type doesn't matter anymore anyway, which is a shame.
They should, however, give damage type bonuses in all fights. Let's use Octopath Traveler (or the Persona series) as an example. Every enemy in that game - whether it's a trash mob or a boss, has a list of elemental weaknesses, and since every enemy has it, the love gets spread around. Some bosses might have a frost vulnerability while others might have a fire or lightning vulnerability. The key is to spread the love evenly so that everyone gets an equal shot at bonus damage.
There should never be a penalty for running a specific damage type, because that's only harmful to the playerbase. Making bosses immune to fire? Bad. Giving holy a small bonus against a specific boss? Good. The key is to evenly distribute the bonus damage so that there's never a single class or damage type that consistently outshines the rest.
Most raids have 10-12 bosses. That's enough bosses per raid that they could pretty evenly distribute a bit of flavorful elemental vulnerabilities without a balance problem or a favoritism problem.
Damage type doesn't matter anymore anyway, which is a shame.
They should, however, give damage type bonuses in all fights. Let's use Octopath Traveler (or the Persona series) as an example. Every enemy in that game - whether it's a trash mob or a boss, has a list of elemental weaknesses, and since every enemy has it, the love gets spread around. Some bosses might have a frost vulnerability while others might have a fire or lightning vulnerability. The key is to spread the love evenly so that everyone gets an equal shot at bonus damage.
There should never be a penalty for running a specific damage type, because that's only harmful to the playerbase. Making bosses immune to fire? Bad. Giving holy a small bonus against a specific boss? Good. The key is to evenly distribute the bonus damage so that there's never a single class or damage type that consistently outshines the rest.
Most raids have 10-12 bosses. That's enough bosses per raid that they could pretty evenly distribute a bit of flavorful elemental vulnerabilities without a balance problem or a favoritism problem.
Folks will switch specs or even classes to exploit that. And in the Hardcore area it will be mandatory and trickle down to the wannabes. Not a fan.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
They did accomplish that fairly well on the Argus fight. It was only one phase but it was cool to have an add you could excel on.
There is so many interesting nuances to damage types for them to mean absolutely nothing.
no thanks.
blizzard couldn't sort balance out back then and the 5 warlocks I was rolling with were all too busy/lazy/whatever to slap a curse of elements on the boss.
It was frost or go home!
Given that certain specs perform tend to perform better throughout a raid (played arcane in nyalotha, fire being the chosen spec here) I wouldn't want to further convolute that with damage resistances/vulnerabilities.
tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I have too many bad memories of anyone who dealt Frost or Nature damage just being shit out of luck on Hydross to ever want damage type mattering to come back.
blizzard couldn't sort balance out back then and the 5 warlocks I was rolling with were all too busy/lazy/whatever to slap a curse of elements on the boss.
Or maybe the trivial DoTs from Fireballs were pushing CoE off the debuff table. :rotate:
Jesus, Vanilla was so mechanically bad.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I don’t think anyone said to bring back resistances though? Every single example given was the opposite of the suggestion...
Elemental immunities/vulnerabilities can work fine in single player RPGs -- or perhaps the rare MMO designed around them (Asheron's Call?), where each caster character either has access to a wide variety of damage types, or in something like Final Fantasy X where the penalty for swapping party members is nil. WoW was never designed around players being able to reliably control their damage types, though, so it works better when damage types are just for flavor.
how are warriors and rogues looking in shadowlands?
I've played more warrior than anything else in WoW but I got away from it after WoD because I felt constantly disadvantaged with poor sustain and having Arms burst potential slowly being whittled away over the years
but I still like the theming of the class... I like just beating something to death with a hammer... contrasted to say Ret Pally which just sparkles menacingly at its enemies and they take damage for some reason
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
My legacy content agenda took me to the TBC raids today. I really hate that for the entirety of TBC and WotLK I was stuck on dialup and automatically left out of this shit. I was so goddamn ready and had the time available to commit to it all. Vanilla was pretty much the same; the first half I had a proper internet connection but the guild wasn't raid-capable. Then when I did get into a raid capable guild, that was when my dialup situation went into effect.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
how are warriors and rogues looking in shadowlands?
I've played more warrior than anything else in WoW but I got away from it after WoD because I felt constantly disadvantaged with poor sustain and having Arms burst potential slowly being whittled away over the years
but I still like the theming of the class... I like just beating something to death with a hammer... contrasted to say Ret Pally which just sparkles menacingly at its enemies and they take damage for some reason
Can’t speak as much for warrior but rogue looks great.
Sub is a fun and competitive spec now. Assassination is basically the same but shiv amps poison damage now and is baseline so you can have that and exsanguinate which is fun. Outlaw still is what it is but has it’s legion artifact ability back.
I know warriors got a lot from unpruning and having ignore pain on the dps specs goes a long way. Arms looks a ton better from the outside at least. Fury is fairly the same though.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
They have announced that the prepatch exists and IS coming.
Just... no actual date
Oh btw there are bugs on the ptr that haven’t been fixed in two weeks, with no real acknowledgement, and now both copies are broken and one whole realm has been offline for 2 days now. I mean I guess they are in absolute crunch mode, but unless a patch comes tomorrow to just fix it all in one fell swoop it sure feels like prepatch is kind of abandoned right now.
My guess is 2 weeks from now is their target, but they didn't want to commit to it because they've got a flurry of development to squeeze in during that time, and they'll push it back even further if they have to.
A bigger problem is they pushed out changes onto the PTR... But not to the beta. I don't mean like things relating to the event and such either, I mean whole new abilities kind of changes.
It's impossible to totally tell what the story internally is, but personally a lot of how the shadowlands beta looks to me feels like the result of management not being willing to push the release date back an appropriate amount of time after all the time lost to transitioning to proper WFH and all the inherent hits to productivity that arises from having to work from a home office and deal with any issues that arise at home such as childcare (from say all the daycares being closed as a result of a global pandemic)
Stuff coming out this fall should be stuff that was originally going to come out this late spring/summer. Shadowlands was not making that date to begin with.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
maybe, but BFA has already been the longest expansion in history in calendar time
So I was doing tides of war on my rogue but it seems I accidently picked up the quest chain for The Pride of Kul Tiras.
WTF 4 dungeons? Do I have to them all on heroic? I have done 2 of them but as I said earlier I can only really play on my weekends
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Don't forget by the way that the whole pandemic thing has happened. Even with video game development being possible with everyone working remotely, it still changes things and can really throw a wrench in it all.
My guess is 2 weeks from now is their target, but they didn't want to commit to it because they've got a flurry of development to squeeze in during that time, and they'll push it back even further if they have to.
They also said there would be two patches prior to the expansion - the prepatch and an update to the prepatch, iirc.
creating a software release is work in and of itself. they're probably just developing, and have concluding releasing another PTR of the patch will not reveal any valuable information
Posts
They're also just really different skillsets. I've been playing DPS Shaman for a long time and I'm frankly pretty good at both Enhancement and Elemental. I don't even know where to begin playing Resto.
Yeah but,
Why is increasing the number of them like the binary response to this? This isn’t vanilla where you almost have to have one spec. Having alternate roles can also just mean you like to switch it up without leveling a new char you know.
That feels like a really narrow minded view of the goal there. I guess if it helps make the counter arguement though...
I know from personal experience, as a DPS main (who doesn't know the first thing about tanking), if I had a tank off spec I could see myself using it in groups with friends/guildies in content much below my gear level (perhaps M0's or low M+) to help gear alts or whatever. Hell maybe if I had some experience in that situation, queueing as a tank for dungeon finder or LFR in PuGs wouldn't be so intimidating and I could try it out for fasters queues and get myself in to tanking.
Really loving the father / son parallel there; I just hope they follow through appropriately and actually do something with it.
wow you managed to find the one plot worse than the current plot with sylvanas
What I'm saying is that Blizzard's drawing parallels between Grom's story in Lords of War and Garrosh in Shadowlands, which I think is neat. I doubt they'll do anything about it.
They'll just flip the switch and start writing like Garrosh is redeemed now, because characters are only ever in 'bad guy' or 'good guy' mode in WoW writing, no matter how ridiculous it ends up being. Alt-Grom comes to mind.
Sylvanas was the closest they ever got to proper ambiguity, and they decided keeping that shit up was way too hard.
I'm willing to bet The Jailer™ is gonna end up being an Old God, a puppet of the Old Gods, or the maker / parent of the Old Gods. Calling it now. Bonus points if the plot includes someone / something being misunderstood.
They should, however, give damage type bonuses in all fights. Let's use Octopath Traveler (or the Persona series) as an example. Every enemy in that game - whether it's a trash mob or a boss, has a list of elemental weaknesses, and since every enemy has it, the love gets spread around. Some bosses might have a frost vulnerability while others might have a fire or lightning vulnerability. The key is to spread the love evenly so that everyone gets an equal shot at bonus damage.
There should never be a penalty for running a specific damage type, because that's only harmful to the playerbase. Making bosses immune to fire? Bad. Giving holy a small bonus against a specific boss? Good. The key is to evenly distribute the bonus damage so that there's never a single class or damage type that consistently outshines the rest.
Most raids have 10-12 bosses. That's enough bosses per raid that they could pretty evenly distribute a bit of flavorful elemental vulnerabilities without a balance problem or a favoritism problem.
Folks will switch specs or even classes to exploit that. And in the Hardcore area it will be mandatory and trickle down to the wannabes. Not a fan.
There is so many interesting nuances to damage types for them to mean absolutely nothing.
no thanks.
blizzard couldn't sort balance out back then and the 5 warlocks I was rolling with were all too busy/lazy/whatever to slap a curse of elements on the boss.
It was frost or go home!
Given that certain specs perform tend to perform better throughout a raid (played arcane in nyalotha, fire being the chosen spec here) I wouldn't want to further convolute that with damage resistances/vulnerabilities.
Jesus, Vanilla was so mechanically bad.
I've played more warrior than anything else in WoW but I got away from it after WoD because I felt constantly disadvantaged with poor sustain and having Arms burst potential slowly being whittled away over the years
but I still like the theming of the class... I like just beating something to death with a hammer... contrasted to say Ret Pally which just sparkles menacingly at its enemies and they take damage for some reason
Can’t speak as much for warrior but rogue looks great.
Sub is a fun and competitive spec now. Assassination is basically the same but shiv amps poison damage now and is baseline so you can have that and exsanguinate which is fun. Outlaw still is what it is but has it’s legion artifact ability back.
I know warriors got a lot from unpruning and having ignore pain on the dps specs goes a long way. Arms looks a ton better from the outside at least. Fury is fairly the same though.
Just... no actual date
Oh btw there are bugs on the ptr that haven’t been fixed in two weeks, with no real acknowledgement, and now both copies are broken and one whole realm has been offline for 2 days now. I mean I guess they are in absolute crunch mode, but unless a patch comes tomorrow to just fix it all in one fell swoop it sure feels like prepatch is kind of abandoned right now.
It's all a big mess.
Stuff coming out this fall should be stuff that was originally going to come out this late spring/summer. Shadowlands was not making that date to begin with.
the 18 month exp thing with wow I feel has bit them in the ass and created that elitism attitude of certain raid guilds
WTF 4 dungeons? Do I have to them all on heroic? I have done 2 of them but as I said earlier I can only really play on my weekends
They also said there would be two patches prior to the expansion - the prepatch and an update to the prepatch, iirc.
So they're kinda running out of time.
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