I like foretell a lot as a cost smoothing mechanic but in practice it hasn't met the promise of being a "mind-games, trap card" sort of mechanic yet. This may be something that develops as the format becomes more mature, though. At this point, though, I don't feel like you get a ton of information out of the fact that your opponent has fortelled, it just feels like them sitting with another card in their hand until I get to the point where I can consistently guess what foretells are likely to come out.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I don't think it's going to regularly be a trap card in limited. The traps are too rare. The counterspell is an uncommon. You also need a ton for there to be traps, because some of them are just going to be creatures/spells to play asap. There's rarely a time when you're going to hold a Behold the Multiverse as a trap if you've got two mana available at the end of your opponents turn. Why would you? That means if something is just sitting there turn after turn you can pretty quickly figure out what it must be based on what they keep open.
Currently running largely RG Zirda cycling Tibalt Trickery, because I like bad decks.
Got Tibalt playing on Crypt and Flourishing Fox.
Then most everything else are big cycling chumps.
Probably need more Timberwolf Sym and hitting Genesis is great, but hopefully Fox is still sort of a threat early game if it needs, or gets pulled by Tybalt.
But yeah
Things that are hard to remove seem a better way to go, but at least I can cycle stuff if the combo fails to fire.
Oh nooo
Competent Tibalt deck vs my sorry abomination, both combo at the start.
Was about to get lethal by using brazen brawler to fight a world snake and casting the red wrath on the brawler as well.
Other deck tibalts my wrath into a tormund.
If you all have the rare wild cards to spare, you might want to just hedge on crafting Tibalt's Trickery now because there's no way it doesn't get banned.
It's also much better in Historic where you can't recover from a T2 Ulamog.
And forcing a format to require people to run T1 / T2 Black discard or Blue counters is not a healthy format
It's also much better in Historic where you can't recover from a T2 Ulamog.
And forcing a format to require people to run T1 / T2 Black discard or Blue counters is not a healthy format
The deck requires an incredible density of bombs for its odds to be >50%. If your only hit is Ulamog, you are playing a 30% win rate deck even if Ulamog wins every time you cast him. And if you are playing more bombs, you can't guarantee the Ugin.
Also, requiring mulling hard to sideboard tech is a thing in every format except Standard. Dredge has been a thing forever, and in Histofic so is Neoform.
Can someone put together Roiling Vortex red aggro also with Tibalt for me?
I don't have the wildcards, and seems funny against the Tibalt decks (when playing first)
Well, I don't have any Esika, God of the Tree, but I made the deck with a few other big creatures in it instead and it is very funny. Doesn't seem terribly consistent, but I did play against a mirror and won and it was hilarious.
It's also much better in Historic where you can't recover from a T2 Ulamog.
And forcing a format to require people to run T1 / T2 Black discard or Blue counters is not a healthy format
Or exile, or force a sacrifice. I mean white's got all those "exile target until this leaves play" enchantments, and guess what a deck that's all land except for 4 Tibalt's and 4 Ulamog's not going to do anytime soon?
Spent too much of my evening messing around with Vorinclex, 4 mana Teferi, and Midnight Clock.
That package is absolutely hilarious but probably have built the lower part of my curveball wrong. The current record is 6 turns in a row, once winning a 37 to 1 game vs a Vito angels deck by never passing back control.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited February 2021
Maybe it's only because I'm a mediocre drafter but I think the rares/mythics in this set are too bomby. It makes it really hard for me to read colors in the first couple picks out of each pack. "Oh there's no way they would leave this uncommon here and want to be in that color, it must be open!"
Imo reading signals is often a thing people overfocus on compared to simply picking the best cards, especially early and especially if combined with the extremely useless strategy of hate-drafting.
Also this doesn't feel like a super bomb heavy set, a lot of the best engines are uncommon sagas and there aren't a lot of "you just lose" cards like Dream Trawler or Kiora. Hell, the common exile removal even gets rid of Koma.
I ate an engineer
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Imo reading signals is often a thing people overfocus on compared to simply picking the best cards, especially early and especially if combined with the extremely useless strategy of hate-drafting.
Also this doesn't feel like a super bomb heavy set, a lot of the best engines are uncommon sagas and there aren't a lot of "you just lose" cards like Dream Trawler or Kiora. Hell, the common exile removal even gets rid of Koma.
I mean hate drafting is stupid, especially on arena where you aren't even playing against the people you drafted with. I just don't want to be fighting over the same couple colors with the people adjacent to me. You can also open something on pack 2, like Starnheim Unleashed and then be like "Oh I guess I'm splashing white now."
And again, maybe it's because I'm only okay, but a lot of the rares feel very "oh holy shit " to me. I suppose the format feels slow enough that you should just take everything you can and be okay with playing a ton of colors because foretell is really good at reducing colored mana requirements and giving you something to do when you otherwise can't because you're not getting the right mana, and then let you have strong turns when you do finally have the color. You're not necessarily falling endlessly behind if you can at least durdle with foretell.
I always think the right play is to just pick the best cards for the first three or four chances (with only limited thought to what you already pulled) then evaluate how to go from there. My worst performances are always where I pull something great pack 1, and then focus only on it for the next picks, and now I'm stuck with a sub par setup.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah, this is stupid. Fuick Vorinclex so fuckin hard. Stop pushing green, Jesus Fucking Christ.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Are we really complaining about a 6 mana creature without a ETB ability and no way to protect itself?
If you're tapping out for that kind of creature, you'd better win the game if you untap with it because you lose so hard to any kind of interaction.
Green isn't tapping out to play it. Green has a titanic amount of mana. In addition, many widely played removal options outside black don't really help. Pacifisms, blue "doesn't untap", red shocks etc.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Most decks I know that run vorinclex are also using the green destroy target permanent saga and oodles of planeswalkers. They have acceleration out the wazzoo and it's nothing but gas.
They trivially get to Vorinclex and then whoops I'm boned.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Are we really complaining about a 6 mana creature without a ETB ability and no way to protect itself?
If you're tapping out for that kind of creature, you'd better win the game if you untap with it because you lose so hard to any kind of interaction.
Green isn't tapping out to play it. Green has a titanic amount of mana. In addition, many widely played removal options outside black don't really help. Pacifisms, blue "doesn't untap", red shocks etc.
Are we talking about limited? I can imagine a 6/6 haste trample being good there but I don't think it's the scariest bomb in the format.
If it's constructed, why are we talking about stuff no one plays? People don't go around playing pacifisms or sleep effects, they play good cards. Gruul adventures goes under Vorinclex, rogues counters it or bounces it or just kills it at instant speed, temur ramp goes over the top with genesis ultimatum, Yorion doom fortold decks love their opponents playing a few expensive permanents as well as playing things like extinction event and doomskar to wipe the board. I guess mono-green food doesn't have a good answer but they're also likely the best home for Vorinclex. It's not a horrible card as a 6/6 with trample and haste will get some value and it's cute how it turns off ECD which is the best white removal against it but the rest of the text is just a minor upside and people who talk about playing Vorinclex into Ugin are forgetting that they'd probably have won with just Ugin alone.
Most decks I know that run vorinclex are also using the green destroy target permanent saga and oodles of planeswalkers. They have acceleration out the wazzoo and it's nothing but gas.
They trivially get to Vorinclex and then whoops I'm boned.
What are you playing that your opponent has lands, ramp, interaction and somehow still has more payoffs than you can deal with? Unless they're somehow drawing 2 cards to your 1, you should be doing something on your turns as well. Like what are you playing that is having issues? Unless there's a mismatch between the quality of your cards, you should be doing something equally powerful.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Most decks I know that run vorinclex are also using the green destroy target permanent saga and oodles of planeswalkers. They have acceleration out the wazzoo and it's nothing but gas.
They trivially get to Vorinclex and then whoops I'm boned.
What are you playing that your opponent has lands, ramp, interaction and somehow still has more payoffs than you can deal with? Unless they're somehow drawing 2 cards to your 1, you should be doing something on your turns as well. Like what are you playing that is having issues? Unless there's a mismatch between the quality of your cards, you should be doing something equally powerful.
Decks that are G/B. They play the saga that destroys a permanent, it accelerates. It's generally G/B that's running vorclex, or even regular old adventures that gets him anyway fucks me over because it removes a lot of my options to deal with anything.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Most decks I know that run vorinclex are also using the green destroy target permanent saga and oodles of planeswalkers. They have acceleration out the wazzoo and it's nothing but gas.
They trivially get to Vorinclex and then whoops I'm boned.
What are you playing that your opponent has lands, ramp, interaction and somehow still has more payoffs than you can deal with? Unless they're somehow drawing 2 cards to your 1, you should be doing something on your turns as well. Like what are you playing that is having issues? Unless there's a mismatch between the quality of your cards, you should be doing something equally powerful.
Decks that are G/B. They play the saga that destroys a permanent, it accelerates. It's generally G/B that's running vorclex, or even regular old adventures that gets him anyway fucks me over because it removes a lot of my options to deal with anything.
I still don't understand what deck you're playing but one of the useful tools for understanding how to beat a deck is to run it yourself. There must be a significant weakness as there are no G/B decks spiking what few early tournaments we've had and all the buzz I've seen online about new decks is about izzet control running the new dragon. There was a sweat looking azban adventure deck that went 5-0 in a mtgo league but it didn't run vorinclex. I find it hard to believe that Vorinclex is overpowered and no one who is running in these tournaments and trying their very hardest to win has even tried it.
I've not run into it but I go hard into limited at the start of a set and only come out to play standard a few weeks later when the meta is settled and I have the cards I want.
Are we really complaining about a 6 mana creature without a ETB ability and no way to protect itself?
If you're tapping out for that kind of creature, you'd better win the game if you untap with it because you lose so hard to any kind of interaction.
Green isn't tapping out to play it. Green has a titanic amount of mana. In addition, many widely played removal options outside black don't really help. Pacifisms, blue "doesn't untap", red shocks etc.
Are we talking about limited? I can imagine a 6/6 haste trample being good there but I don't think it's the scariest bomb in the format.
If it's constructed, why are we talking about stuff no one plays? People don't go around playing pacifisms or sleep effects, they play good cards. Gruul adventures goes under Vorinclex, rogues counters it or bounces it or just kills it at instant speed, temur ramp goes over the top with genesis ultimatum, Yorion doom fortold decks love their opponents playing a few expensive permanents as well as playing things like extinction event and doomskar to wipe the board. I guess mono-green food doesn't have a good answer but they're also likely the best home for Vorinclex. It's not a horrible card as a 6/6 with trample and haste will get some value and it's cute how it turns off ECD which is the best white removal against it but the rest of the text is just a minor upside and people who talk about playing Vorinclex into Ugin are forgetting that they'd probably have won with just Ugin alone.
I don't care that it has trample and haste. It could be a 0/4 for 6. You play it, now the other side can't use planeswalkers, sagas or counters, and you can ultimate planeswalkers as soon as you put them down.
It's a perfectly viable card against great decks which utterly shuts down a ton of fun decks which could sometimes win. Dont think about best of three, think of its effect in best of one, which is where most "I'm just here to have a quick bit of fun" people play.
For example, lifegain clerics. Gaining counters is critical, and I need my removal to kill enchantments, and I rely on my creatures to kill creatures. Vorinclex makes your planeswalkers better, and my tools, which were already struggling, worse.
It's a problem because it's "win more" for decks which already dominated the format and were winning.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Vorinclex doesn't seem to be getting use in any of the top winrate decks.
Even the ones that do use green.
He's cool and all but not even close to the top of strong stuff from this set.
Vorinclex doesn't seem to be getting use in any of the top winrate decks.
Even the ones that do use green.
He's cool and all but not even close to the top of strong stuff from this set.
He's terrible because he's a punishment card for playstyles which were already having trouble. It doesn't matter whether he's truly top tier. It matters that he eliminates the ability of already weak decks to have fun. Effectively, if +1/+1 counters and lifegain isn't a top tier deck, then why does a card need to exist which is a hard counter to it.
Vorinclex doesn't seem to be getting use in any of the top winrate decks.
Even the ones that do use green.
He's cool and all but not even close to the top of strong stuff from this set.
He's terrible because he's a punishment card for playstyles which were already having trouble. It doesn't matter whether he's truly top tier. It matters that he eliminates the ability of already weak decks to have fun. Effectively, if +1/+1 counters and lifegain isn't a top tier deck, then why does a card need to exist which is a hard counter to it.
I mean, what makes weak decks weak is that they lose a lot and can't handle some cards. Sometimes it's frustrating to queue into another deck that directly counters yours but that's something that happens in magic. Your creature removal deck gets matched up against creature-less control or your burn deck gets matched up against lifegain. Nothing you can do there but take your losses and enjoy the other times when your deck does its thing.
I do get what you're saying that there shouldn't be a big gulf between tier one decks and the rest of the field but Vorinclex isn't contributing to that problem. He's not being used by the current top decks (through there is still plenty of time for the meta to shift) and mostly seems to be showing up as a sideboard card in monogreen food or in meme poison decks.
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Standard will depend on how good it is.
Got Tibalt playing on Crypt and Flourishing Fox.
Then most everything else are big cycling chumps.
Probably need more Timberwolf Sym and hitting Genesis is great, but hopefully Fox is still sort of a threat early game if it needs, or gets pulled by Tybalt.
But yeah
Things that are hard to remove seem a better way to go, but at least I can cycle stuff if the combo fails to fire.
But went second and lost to red aggro playing Ash Phoenix.
Competent Tibalt deck vs my sorry abomination, both combo at the start.
Was about to get lethal by using brazen brawler to fight a world snake and casting the red wrath on the brawler as well.
Other deck tibalts my wrath into a tormund.
I think it is only best of 1 viable, and will get crushed in best of 3. So we shall see how much wizards cares about best of one.
And forcing a format to require people to run T1 / T2 Black discard or Blue counters is not a healthy format
The deck requires an incredible density of bombs for its odds to be >50%. If your only hit is Ulamog, you are playing a 30% win rate deck even if Ulamog wins every time you cast him. And if you are playing more bombs, you can't guarantee the Ugin.
Also, requiring mulling hard to sideboard tech is a thing in every format except Standard. Dredge has been a thing forever, and in Histofic so is Neoform.
I don't have the wildcards, and seems funny against the Tibalt decks (when playing first)
Or exile, or force a sacrifice. I mean white's got all those "exile target until this leaves play" enchantments, and guess what a deck that's all land except for 4 Tibalt's and 4 Ulamog's not going to do anytime soon?
I think in MTG parlance "serpents" are usually aquatic but yes it is a stupid distinction.
That package is absolutely hilarious but probably have built the lower part of my curveball wrong. The current record is 6 turns in a row, once winning a 37 to 1 game vs a Vito angels deck by never passing back control.
Nintendo ID: Pastalonius
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Also this doesn't feel like a super bomb heavy set, a lot of the best engines are uncommon sagas and there aren't a lot of "you just lose" cards like Dream Trawler or Kiora. Hell, the common exile removal even gets rid of Koma.
I mean hate drafting is stupid, especially on arena where you aren't even playing against the people you drafted with. I just don't want to be fighting over the same couple colors with the people adjacent to me. You can also open something on pack 2, like Starnheim Unleashed and then be like "Oh I guess I'm splashing white now."
And again, maybe it's because I'm only okay, but a lot of the rares feel very "oh holy shit " to me. I suppose the format feels slow enough that you should just take everything you can and be okay with playing a ton of colors because foretell is really good at reducing colored mana requirements and giving you something to do when you otherwise can't because you're not getting the right mana, and then let you have strong turns when you do finally have the color. You're not necessarily falling endlessly behind if you can at least durdle with foretell.
If you're tapping out for that kind of creature, you'd better win the game if you untap with it because you lose so hard to any kind of interaction.
Green isn't tapping out to play it. Green has a titanic amount of mana. In addition, many widely played removal options outside black don't really help. Pacifisms, blue "doesn't untap", red shocks etc.
They trivially get to Vorinclex and then whoops I'm boned.
Are we talking about limited? I can imagine a 6/6 haste trample being good there but I don't think it's the scariest bomb in the format.
If it's constructed, why are we talking about stuff no one plays? People don't go around playing pacifisms or sleep effects, they play good cards. Gruul adventures goes under Vorinclex, rogues counters it or bounces it or just kills it at instant speed, temur ramp goes over the top with genesis ultimatum, Yorion doom fortold decks love their opponents playing a few expensive permanents as well as playing things like extinction event and doomskar to wipe the board. I guess mono-green food doesn't have a good answer but they're also likely the best home for Vorinclex. It's not a horrible card as a 6/6 with trample and haste will get some value and it's cute how it turns off ECD which is the best white removal against it but the rest of the text is just a minor upside and people who talk about playing Vorinclex into Ugin are forgetting that they'd probably have won with just Ugin alone.
What are you playing that your opponent has lands, ramp, interaction and somehow still has more payoffs than you can deal with? Unless they're somehow drawing 2 cards to your 1, you should be doing something on your turns as well. Like what are you playing that is having issues? Unless there's a mismatch between the quality of your cards, you should be doing something equally powerful.
Decks that are G/B. They play the saga that destroys a permanent, it accelerates. It's generally G/B that's running vorclex, or even regular old adventures that gets him anyway fucks me over because it removes a lot of my options to deal with anything.
I still don't understand what deck you're playing but one of the useful tools for understanding how to beat a deck is to run it yourself. There must be a significant weakness as there are no G/B decks spiking what few early tournaments we've had and all the buzz I've seen online about new decks is about izzet control running the new dragon. There was a sweat looking azban adventure deck that went 5-0 in a mtgo league but it didn't run vorinclex. I find it hard to believe that Vorinclex is overpowered and no one who is running in these tournaments and trying their very hardest to win has even tried it.
I've not run into it but I go hard into limited at the start of a set and only come out to play standard a few weeks later when the meta is settled and I have the cards I want.
I don't care that it has trample and haste. It could be a 0/4 for 6. You play it, now the other side can't use planeswalkers, sagas or counters, and you can ultimate planeswalkers as soon as you put them down.
It's a perfectly viable card against great decks which utterly shuts down a ton of fun decks which could sometimes win. Dont think about best of three, think of its effect in best of one, which is where most "I'm just here to have a quick bit of fun" people play.
For example, lifegain clerics. Gaining counters is critical, and I need my removal to kill enchantments, and I rely on my creatures to kill creatures. Vorinclex makes your planeswalkers better, and my tools, which were already struggling, worse.
It's a problem because it's "win more" for decks which already dominated the format and were winning.
Even the ones that do use green.
He's cool and all but not even close to the top of strong stuff from this set.
He's terrible because he's a punishment card for playstyles which were already having trouble. It doesn't matter whether he's truly top tier. It matters that he eliminates the ability of already weak decks to have fun. Effectively, if +1/+1 counters and lifegain isn't a top tier deck, then why does a card need to exist which is a hard counter to it.
I mean, what makes weak decks weak is that they lose a lot and can't handle some cards. Sometimes it's frustrating to queue into another deck that directly counters yours but that's something that happens in magic. Your creature removal deck gets matched up against creature-less control or your burn deck gets matched up against lifegain. Nothing you can do there but take your losses and enjoy the other times when your deck does its thing.
I do get what you're saying that there shouldn't be a big gulf between tier one decks and the rest of the field but Vorinclex isn't contributing to that problem. He's not being used by the current top decks (through there is still plenty of time for the meta to shift) and mostly seems to be showing up as a sideboard card in monogreen food or in meme poison decks.
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'eyyy thanks a ton, mine worked just fine