Sooo I made a thing!
I wasn't quite happy with the few variants that were out there so I made my own that's a mix of all of them.
It's a hex crawl generator for Tomb of Annihilation using DMG rules for weather (+ToA for storms) with a few other options.
I split the day up into 3 chunks to get a more lively weather feeling, other than that it's all strictly raw.
It is barebones but functional!
Yea avernus ended up being one of our heavier talky campaigns. Also if you’re still in hellturel theres plenty of time for the magic users to take different spells that aren't fire based, and having plenty of buffs isn't a bad thing.
We have 2 wizards, 2 artificers, a bard, and a paladin. I'm the bard and I have sharpshooter and use my animated performance friend to give me advantage so I can do a strong arrow shot even though I have one attack, and use all my spells for support. The pie chart of "damage done" in the party is 50% paladin, 25% me, 25% the other 4 party members pretty much
and for 2 of them they're getting just as frustrated with me at this
like Storm Kings Thunder isn't all giants, making an entire campaign one enemy type is.... shit tbh
I did try to warn both wizards that wizards are terrible against devils, they won't keep up with a martial that is 3 levels below them in damage
Pick metamagic adept at level 8 (which they should be close to) and pick "transmute spell"
"When you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder."
That lets your blaster get off two big spells with altering the effect to get around things resistances. It's per long rest, but then most big wizard spells are anyway.
thats a solid suggestion for them, but I raised the issue with the DM and told him I was thinking about quitting and he told me to give it a bit and that he's aware of the wizard's concerns especially after I showed him the save chart and the fact that one of the wizards is a Graviturgist and all gravity spells are awful against devils
I mean I've been playing this campaign for... good god since last August I wanna say
We've been in Avernus for quite a while at this point (we've cleared out like, idk even how many dungeons in a row, by dungeons I mean buildings full of devils) and it looks like next we have to fight a goddamned greater vampire and his court of vampire spawns at level 7 but hey at least they aren't devils
I mean I've been playing this campaign for... good god since last August I wanna say
We've been in Avernus for quite a while at this point (we've cleared out like, idk even how many dungeons in a row, by dungeons I mean buildings full of devils) and it looks like next we have to fight a goddamned greater vampire and his court of vampire spawns at level 7 but hey at least they aren't devils
It's Baator, everything here is evil - but sometimes civil.
But speaking as an old Planescape DM, perhaps you could look to find some common ground with these enemies rather than treating everything as a dungeon, and hopefully your DM is ready to play along?
You're not going to redeem hell by killing enough baddies in only one mortal lifetime. If there's something here that's not a devil, then it's likely also fighting the devils or knows which devils you can work with.
I mean I've been playing this campaign for... good god since last August I wanna say
We've been in Avernus for quite a while at this point (we've cleared out like, idk even how many dungeons in a row, by dungeons I mean buildings full of devils) and it looks like next we have to fight a goddamned greater vampire and his court of vampire spawns at level 7 but hey at least they aren't devils
It's Baator, everything here is evil - but sometimes civil.
But speaking as an old Planescape DM, perhaps you could look to find some common ground with these enemies rather than treating everything as a dungeon, and hopefully your DM is ready to play along?
You're not going to redeem hell by killing enough baddies in only one mortal lifetime. If there's something here that's not a devil, then it's likely also fighting the devils or knows which devils you can work with.
Ah yeah, when I walk into a room with children being lowered screaming into a fire one at a time, or see a line of infantry hoisting people on spears, or a bone devil herding hundreds of people into a room so they can gas them with poison - before those forces immediately try and kill my party on sight - I should try ... making peace?
Zariel's forces are in the process of committing genocide, the campaign has been essentially non-stop combat for months trying to get the city's defenders into some kind of organization, and it's made *explicitly* clear that short of tricking the devils into thinking that I am Zariel, they cannot be dissuaded from their task (Which they very much enjoy!)
I'm more than a little offended that the response to me saying "hey I'm thinking of quitting this campaign that is nothing but combat" is "have you tried not doing combat?"
The goal is to rescue a city that's under siege, it has nothing to do with redeeming hell (at least not yet). Redemption doesn't seem to be a part of this campaign, since how evil someone is apparently plays no part in whether they're damned or not, your landlord can just sign your soul away, apparently. I'm sure deus ex machina involves redeeming Zariel herself at the end, but really all Asmodeus needs to do is just have thavius kreeg sign a document damning her to hell and he'll get her back, since he has much right to Zariel's soul as he does every baby in Elturel
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I mean I've been playing this campaign for... good god since last August I wanna say
We've been in Avernus for quite a while at this point (we've cleared out like, idk even how many dungeons in a row, by dungeons I mean buildings full of devils) and it looks like next we have to fight a goddamned greater vampire and his court of vampire spawns at level 7 but hey at least they aren't devils
It's Baator, everything here is evil - but sometimes civil.
But speaking as an old Planescape DM, perhaps you could look to find some common ground with these enemies rather than treating everything as a dungeon, and hopefully your DM is ready to play along?
You're not going to redeem hell by killing enough baddies in only one mortal lifetime. If there's something here that's not a devil, then it's likely also fighting the devils or knows which devils you can work with.
Ah yeah, when I walk into a room with children being lowered screaming into a fire one at a time, or see a line of infantry hoisting people on spears, or a bone devil herding hundreds of people into a room so they can gas them with poison - before those forces immediately try and kill my party on sight - I should try ... making peace?
Zariel's forces are in the process of committing genocide,the campaign has been essentially non-stop combat for months trying to get the city's defenders into some kind of organization, and it's made *explicitly* clear that short of tricking the devils into thinking that I am Zariel, they cannot be dissuaded from their task (Which they very much enjoy!)
I'm more than a little offended that the response to me saying "hey I'm thinking of quitting this campaign that is nothing but combat" is "have you tried not doing combat?"
The goal is to rescue a city that's under siege, it has nothing to do with redeeming hell (at least not yet). Redemption doesn't seem to be a part of this campaign, since how evil someone is apparently plays no part in whether they're damned or not, your landlord can just sign your soul away, apparently. I'm sure deus ex machina involves redeeming Zariel herself at the end, but really all Asmodeus needs to do is just have thavius kreeg sign a document damning her to hell and he'll get her back, since he has much right to Zariel's soul as he does every baby in Elturel
I think this is falling into the differences between DMs as well and how they run things and interpret the campaign. The bolded? We did NONE of that. Which I would be in your shoes 100% if thats how my campaign went.
Spoilers below since we're wandering into that territory.
We were out of Elturel in like 2 sessions. The way our DM played it the city would do its best to stand on its own but the solution was always going to be out in the wastes for stopping Zariel. We pretty much went on "Road Trip: Hell Edition" for the majority of the campaign. We didn't get back to Elturel until the final session, and that was just wrapping things up.
Spoiler Spoilers for how my character ended up - A Man turned into a dog by accident who was also a wizard.
I ended up making a deal with Asmodeus to re-work the recruitment strategies of hell against the Demons. This whole mayor signing away their constituents, getting dipped in the styx and turned into monsters wasn't going to truck with my character. I posited that small strike teams (Adventuring parties) could do much more targeted damage against the demon hoards, based on how we had been kicking ass up and down Hell, and that for mass recruitment hell would offer boons. The exchange of power for service. 100 years in hell (where you don't age) and you get to leave with more power to continue your life on whatever plane. Asmodeus agreed and we struck a deal, and I was the first one to get boons.
What's fun is Matt Colville's Illrigger class plays right into this conceit, and in a campaign soon I'm going to play one, who was recruited by my previous character.
The way this thing has been presented I don't know how the player's are ever supposed to leave, we've basically been dropped into poland and the nazis are invading, oh and if they conquer poland we lose
but then again I think it's farcical on its face to send what the PHB classifies as "local heroes" against a being that's nigh-unto-a-god so what do I know. Like, all of Elturel with its legions is fucked without our constant assistance. Could the five of us have conquered Elturel? Probably not, given how easily the flaming fist bossed us around! Somehow we can out-muscle all the hellriders put together though, to such an extent that we save the city in a manner of, idk days? ingame we've been in Hell for 2 days I think
I think Avernus is the worst written adventure they've put out since Horde of the Dragon Queen, and the plot holes it opens up in the metaphysics of the world tear at my disbelief. Why not just pull every city into hell? Shit just get some random homeless person in Waterdeep to consign all 2 million souls there to hell, have a donkey sign over Calimshan, cast speak with plants and ask an Oak Tree if you can have the moonwood.
At least our DM is doing good there - he has Zariel deliberately breaking the rules of the multiverse because she's trying to taunt the gods into doing something about it
Our Party got there much more in the aftermath, rather than immediate siege (which I'm under the impression is closer to what is in the book than what you describe, as it's our DM's first go at DM'ing). More dealing with the clean up crew caught fighting against a new front of demons, whilst finding and rescuing survivors, rather than a pitched battle as the bulk of the fiendish forces were locked in combat underneath the city.
The campaign (as written) is not nothing but combat, I think your DM is adding a bunch of this in to fill out the chapter - we're questing to save the souls of Eturel as much as the lives of the few survivors.
You're also missing a bit of information about how the signing over of souls work too at this stage - you're right to think that this is strange, until now there hasn't been a way to be damned by proxy.
That said, you're right - the devils won't be persuaded to stop*. But the other fiends and monsters are part of different factions, which then lets you start to play some off against the other - especially as they are going to be having as bad a time with the devils as the mortals will be.
*Though they wouldn't be working on Zariel's orders, but their immediate superior who is relaying what they've been told to do and perhaps what they want to do and say it is coming right from Zariel. The key thing would be to claim to be acting on orders of their superior's superior and be shocked and appalled that they are doing what they are doing - because they are supposed to be somewhere else doing something else equally bad. Try to convince them that their boss is trying to show up his boss (a rival to your boss), and has purposely given misleading instructions, knowing that he can lay the blame on his underlings and get them killed/turned back into mindless lemures before getting found out. A "wait, if you're here - who's guarding the west flank!?" kind of approach. Probably not something good characters can pull off as easily.
Your plan requires letting the devils slaughter the people they are in the process of slaughtering to talk to them
since they're in the process of trying to kill every man, woman, and child in the city
like they are universally in the process of feeding people to nightmares or sticking babies on their shoulder spikes every time we encounter them, which is constantly (our entrance to Hell was facing a pair of Narzugons on the back of their nightmares who were doing that "how many people can my sword cut through" thing the japanese did during ww2)
the DM makes it a point to mention how many people died because we long rested last time and found an entire underground cavern full of massacred corpses, I think we're 9 or 10 battles in since the last long rest
we just secured a large stockpile of silvered weapons and duke
ravenguard
is leading a breakout to join up with us with his few hundred defenders so they can make their last stand in
helm's shield hall
but as its presented I feel like if we long rest the place will already be taken, and fuck leaving the city
I'm hoping I can convince the vampire lord to help by pointing out that
the contract requires him to be dead, so Zariel is going to have to come for him at some point anyway
not that contracts matter to the lore anymore, but for some reason I can't sign a contract for someone else's soul to gain power, funny that
You'd also impart some element of urgency, "these poor saps aren't going anywhere - but we're all in trouble if the Tanar'ri are able to get enough of a foothold to bring in the heavy shock troopers, and I've already seen at least one Vrock. We'll guard the prisoners, you go perform your actual orders". With a bit of illusionary magic or slight of hand to make it seem like you're also here to torture/kill the prisoners.
Or this is a trick you save for when you've come across some fiends that are just about to get up to something terrible (they've just found a safe house but haven't gone in, or are pursuing some of the troops you rallied).
Also thinking about it, whilst they like hurting people, they don't need to with these civilians. Their souls have been claimed already, so there's also the option to convince them to spare the citizens too much hardship in return for a favour when they turn into fiends or convince the fiends that a live human fighter who knows the area is more useful than just another lemure. And the more this scout works for you, the more likely they are to be promoted to a more useful devil on death - one that still owes you a favour for sparing their family and fellow citizens. You could even work a bit of the long game in, suggesting that this person (or even you) will even promise a "Grand Betrayal - like revealing the secret ways into the survivor camps" to ensure that you're getting top lawful evil marks and might even be promoted above the fiend you're dealing with, after they have spared these citizens for x amount of time. But then the betrayal turns out to be you betraying the fiend you made a deal with.
Depends if this is what the DM is after though, I think your campaign at the moment sounds a bit like an attempt to get you more invested in Eturel that's gone a bit off the rails.
Contracts - if you want an explanation. It's not a massive plot effecting spoiler, and something you should be able to find out yourself if you ask almost any NPCs the right question. But if it's irritating you:
Citizens of Eturel swear an oath to defend Eturel when they come of age, but the way it's worded means that they're actually signing on to Thavius's deal by swearing their souls to the city or something like that.
As a consequence, the children in Eturel aren't damned. We bugged the otter enough with Sending that eventually he gave in and planeshifted them back to Candlekeep. We gave them a back of gold and some material gathered from Avernus as payment to get them apprenticed if we couldn't get their parents out.
my party is still going to be attacking the devils, because we're good alignment heroes sent to save Elturel from devils, so I think it's a waste of time (and like, I'm supposed to negotiate? in combat? with creatures who largely speak a language that I don't?)
it more sounds like you want me to take over DMing the campaign
I am aware of the details of Thavius' deal
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
I mean it's talk to your DM territory really, you've diverged quite a lot from the plot of Descent already - and the themes honestly. It's difficult to see how a party that has been through what you have is going to handle the subsequent sections (we're about a chapter and a bit ahead of where you would be had things gone via the book).
I guess I'm saying that if the kind of thing I'm talking about is something you might be into, given slightly different future scenarios rather than the "bursting into the torture chamber" situations you've had previously, then maybe mention it to the DM as you're well off book as it is. I'm not saying give them a list of encounters you want to do, but more ticking clock style encounters that at least give you some alternative options over kill fiends to save innocents, or situations where there are more factions involved rather than citizens and devils.
If not, either get ready for some real tonal shifts in the campaign or a real combat slog, where you're going to quite often be heavily outmatched. It might be the DM has written themselves into a corner - particularly following some of the advice you get for this online, or are even just playing for time a bit as combat heavy sessions do give you more time to prep the set pieces. In which case, asking for a bit more variety might work.
Or they might enjoy being the pantomime villain and have you smite real evil doers - in which case, it's not going to get better.
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
This is how the deals have worked since 2nd ed
It's the small print that gets you, having that line slipped into some grain regulations isn't enough. But having someone sign something saying that they agree to abide by all terms and conditions in the contract offered (which includes forfeiting their soul) damns them. Just being a citizen isn't enough, you'd have to actively agree to something. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much different than encouraging a town to be petty and officious.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
This is how the deals have worked since 2nd ed
It's the small print that gets you, having that line slipped into some grain regulations isn't enough. But having someone sign something saying that they agree to abide by all terms and conditions in the contract offered (which includes forfeiting their soul) damns them. Just being a citizen isn't enough, you'd have to actively agree to something. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much different than encouraging a town to be petty and officious.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
Everyone in Elturel DIDNT sign a contract, and the fine print has to be in the fine print of the contract they are signing.
you can't 7 degrees of kevin bacon the entire planet into hell in previous lore, and you have to be of the "Age of Reason" (old enough to understand you are committing an evil act) for your soul to be harvested, not ~5 or 6 years old as in the pact in Elturel.
Here is the actual pact, with Thavius, local random person, signing away other people's souls:
I recognize the dispensation of the device called the Solar Insidiator, hereafter called the Companion. In my capacity as High Overseer of Elturel and its vassal territories, I acknowledge that all lands falling under the light of the Companion are forfeit to Zariel. All persons bound by oath to defend Elturel are also considered forfeit. I further recognize that this dispensation will last fifty years, after which the Companion will return whence it came, taking Elturel and its oath-bound defenders with it, if that is Zariel’s wish.
All this is my everlasting pledge.
This is a Pact Certain from the lore, back when they gave a shit, and certainly dooms Thavius
Agreeing to defend Elturel is not an inherently evil act, the only reason pacts even allow devils to harvest souls, is that *knowingly* singing a Pact Certain is an inherently evil act, one which is nearly irredeemable (but not entirely, as the fiendish codex points out, it is possible to literally "good person" your way out of a contract, but such people are typically hunted down and killed by devils before they can)
The Pact Certain
The Pact Certain is the favored choice of all devils who deal in Faustian pacts, but it is offered only to easy marks who have already proven themselves indifferent to the fates of their souls. A Pact Certain contains language in which the mortal explicitly affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil, even if they have not previously taken any actions of either a lawful or an evil nature. The mere act of consciously assigning one’s soul to a lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically lawful evil act. A Pact Certain can be nullified only by proving that the bloody signature was extracted involuntarily, through duress. According to the Pact Primeval, devils cannot reap signatures through torture or threats of force
So in previous editions, a pact certain:
Was between one devil and one mortal
Explicit
Cannot be made under duress
Cannot be made on someone else's behalf
The only reason it damns one's soul, is because they know they are doing evil by making an infernal pact
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
This is how the deals have worked since 2nd ed
It's the small print that gets you, having that line slipped into some grain regulations isn't enough. But having someone sign something saying that they agree to abide by all terms and conditions in the contract offered (which includes forfeiting their soul) damns them. Just being a citizen isn't enough, you'd have to actively agree to something. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much different than encouraging a town to be petty and officious.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
This is how the deals have worked since 2nd ed
It's the small print that gets you, having that line slipped into some grain regulations isn't enough. But having someone sign something saying that they agree to abide by all terms and conditions in the contract offered (which includes forfeiting their soul) damns them. Just being a citizen isn't enough, you'd have to actively agree to something. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much different than encouraging a town to be petty and officious.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
The last spoiled sentence is key here.
which goes to how my DM is running it.... Zariel doesn't care about the rules
which is perfectly fine - not how its written though
it still breaks the lore wholly because you can just slip a line about some other foreign treaty + contract into subparagraph 475 of Waterdeep's regulations on the trade of Grain and since the citizens swear to follow Waterdeep's laws, bam, now all damned
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
This is how the deals have worked since 2nd ed
It's the small print that gets you, having that line slipped into some grain regulations isn't enough. But having someone sign something saying that they agree to abide by all terms and conditions in the contract offered (which includes forfeiting their soul) damns them. Just being a citizen isn't enough, you'd have to actively agree to something. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much different than encouraging a town to be petty and officious.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
The last spoiled sentence is key here.
which goes to how my DM is running it.... Zariel doesn't care about the rules
which is perfectly fine - not how its written though
The book is pretty clear that Elturel
is in no immediate danger since the bulk of the devils are facing off against the bulk of the demons and the city will drown in the river soon enough (order of weeks or months). Some devils and demons have come into the city to get their jollies but it's not a coordinated thing.
Edit: I don't really want to argue with people, Im not a fan of a lot of things in the book, the lore, story, etc, much of the encounter design, player motivations, being yanked by the ear from plot point to plot point, and battle maps are all terrible in Avernus, etc
but that's just my opinion, I wholeheartedly don't want to shit on other people's enjoyment of the material, I didn't like Mad Mage either and my favorite published campaign is Storm King's Thunder, which a lot of people hate
Given that we're reportedly leaving Elturel next session I think I'll give it another session or two before deciding, but I'm apparently making a warlock pact for my level 7 level up with Mad Maggie, who I have seen Jeremy Crawford roleplay (despite having the book and run the very first part of it, I have done my best to not read any more of it), I am actually a bit excited
I gotta at least give him a few sessions, he admits that he overemphasized the urgency of "Saving Elturel", and should have let us breath more in between fights, he told me tonight his regret was not putting all this extra homebrew content in Baldur's Gate since we all seemed to be having more fun there than in slow-motion-holocaust-city
I don't hate SKT but I think my players like it more than I.... but I do find that its a much better gazetteer of the Savage North (or whatever they're calling this region of the Realms in 5E) than a proper adventure. Especially in the long, long, long Chapter Three. My party is finally into raiding giant strongholds now and we're back on focus, but man Chapter Three was a slog and required a lot of work on DM's part. So far, I think Tomb on Annihilation is the best "module" 5e has put out with a better mix of linear adventure to sandboxing.
I think it sucks that you're not having fun in Avernus, because while I haven't really dived into the structure of the module yet I find the whole idea fucking baller. I hope whatever experience I eventually give my players is better received than the one you're getting. But someone one above nailed it though.... how the DM presents the adventure/story/worldbuilding has a LOT to say about the adventure. Like, I feel like with another DM who was not so slavishly adherent to the 2e style of the Ravenloft campaign I would have had a lot more fun in my Ravenloft game. Shit, I own the original module and it fueled much of my early imagination and love for D&D. I legit regret that I'll be missing out on splunking that magnificent castle and taking on that iconic end boss. I don't want to say, "I could have done it better than my actual DM is. Nyah, Nyah. Nyah." but with a different DM or DMing style, I bet I could have had a blast in Barovia and you could be having a blast in Avernus.
I like Skt because of its open nature, it gives me a lot of freedom as a DM to muck about with it while keeping it intact
I'm not sure how much I'd like it as a player
as a player my favorite so far has been curse of strahd, followed by dragon heist, I kind of hated out of the abyss a lot for similar reasons to my current complaints
but like, you can run curse of strahd as written and its fun, Avernus as written is essentially unrunnable
the first fight is 6 bandits and a bandit captain against a level 1 party
they're throwing fireballs at your party by level 2
from what my DM has told me yesterday, he added a lot to Elturel because we liked faffing about baldur's gate so much, but elturel is not fun, and baldur's gate was fun - probably because elturel isn't a city, it's a post-bombardment WW1 battlefield with like, maybe 5% of the population still alive and the only shop is run by a sadistic vampire lord
hopefully meeting mad maggie will change the tone because right now Avernus is like a combination of the curse of strahd game you hate @Steelhawk with just endless dread and no levity, combined with a meat grinder dungeon marathon
edit: I am referring explicitly to the content, there's been a lot of weird shit the players have been getting up to, like me animated the nameless hero's dead body and her turning into Janet from the good place, stuff like that has been great. Also the DM has been giving a lot of personality to the souls in the soul coins
My main group's GM has kinda lost interest in our current sci-fi game and is bringing it to a close, and the plan is to follow it up with a new season of 5e in our old setting, but a good while into the future. Magitech was being invented last time so there's gonna be guns and probably a Victorian Era kind of theme.
My character idea is a gun-toting Twilight Cleric who is all about using darkness to protect the light. The GM has given me kinda carte blanche to come up with the religion, because the world's religious status was kept pretty vague in the last campaign. A few gods existed, and one character did re-establish an old organized religion, but otherwise there's not a lot to go on. Here's what I have so far:
1. Keeping with the light/dark dichotomy in the Twilight domain, I like the idea of this being like a cult that focuses on keeping the horrors of night at bay. They use darkness, the enemy's great weapon, against those same foes in order to protect the light. Gunpowder itself reinforces this, as it is fire and light unleashed from black powder and smoke.
2. Lycanthropy seems like it would be important, either as an ally or enemy, because of its same dual nature. Since the cult is ostensibly good, I'm inclined towards enemies. Perhaps they might aid those afflicted against their will in finding cures, but show no mercy to those who give in? Maybe werebears are the exception since they're good?
3. Slaying monsters and uncovering heresy would be their sort of bread and butter, so I'm looking at the Christian inquisitions for inspiration. I probably ought to look at Warhammer and 40K for more. Then again, they're a lot more hardcore than I'd like. According to Wikipedia, medieval inquisitions would often turn over the unrepentant to the local law enforcement for trial and punishment, which only rarely ended in death.
4. For the god they worship, it kinda feels like this is outside the jurisdiction of any one god, so maybe they'd worship several? A knowledge god to help them find heresies, a god of the hunt to help them track foes, a god of light to align a gunsight, etc.
What sort of sacraments might this religion perform? So far the main one I've got is the anointing of their guns in oil during the ritual of cleansing, and probably adding some prayers to the mix. And what sort of penances? Again, I want it to be Good, so "purge all heretics" is a bit extreme. Perhaps the lighting of candles as a symbolic penance for minor sins, "restoring the light" as it were.
What else should I consider? What other stuff should a religion have?
What sort of sacraments might this religion perform? So far the main one I've got is the anointing of their guns in oil during the ritual of cleansing, and probably adding some prayers to the mix. And what sort of penances? Again, I want it to be Good, so "purge all heretics" is a bit extreme. Perhaps the lighting of candles as a symbolic penance for minor sins, "restoring the light" as it were.
What else should I consider? What other stuff should a religion have?
A couple of thoughts for you...
Does the religion have a hierarchy? How rigid is it spelled out? Are you a newly formed cult where it's just one guy in a fancy hat telling a half dozen people to go restore the light through superior fire power? Or is this an established religion where you could find a chapter in any given town you visit (once you know what to look for)?
If they're really big into using darkness to fight darkness, maybe they enhance their armor or weapons with trophies from their kills? It may not actually add a bonus, but walking around in a werewolf skin cloak would make a statement that you're not up for taking any were-malarky (while also setting you up as an immediate target for were-malarky). Similar plot hooks if you have a collection of vampire fangs or hag scalps dangling from your belt.
I'd think some kind of initiation rite to be officially inducted into the order. Maybe drugs to make them hallucinate and confront their own inner demons before they're accepted to fight the worlds actual demons? Perhaps the rite could leave some kind of distinguishing mark on the character. Oddly colored eyes, ritualistic scars? Maybe this is done at Level 2 and you come out of it with your domain feature.
Burial rites maybe? Keeping with that whole darkness/light dynamic and your comment about gun powder, a funeral pyre that starts with a high smoke powder that gives way to a magnesium fueled white flame could be an awesome visual. Along this line, an inquisitor may carry their own bag of magnesium shavings as a reminder that they're likely to die away from home.
Soooo my party has emerged from the camp righteous mini dungeon and Yokka has initiated the stand off. The dungeon went fairly well, one player got zapped by a glyph at the end and is currently at 2 hp.
Now a fight would be largely inconsequential imo because they have both undril and azaka in the group.
However .. the party paladin cast light on right previously and has thrown it at yokka, claiming that it is the treasure from the shrine.
I dont wanna stifle creativity but it feels incredibly cheap allowing that to go through (he got a 12 on deception), particularly as he simply yeeted a priceless artifact.
What's your take on it?
Also I was looking at the 4E article about the Prince of Frost and noticed near the end where it had various creeds that warlocks who had him as a patron could follow, with each creed having its own related backstory suggestions for the PC:
Bitter Creed Never Love: The character must show that a life without love is worth living. This is ideal for a game in which romance could bloom, but the fey might also set an ideal lover in the PC’s path to tip the scales of the game.
Be Cold: The PC’s heart must be as cold as ice. The interpretation is broad, but the character might be callous and cruel, especially to enemies. He or she must also remain somewhat aloof from companions and, perhaps, eschew true friendship.
Never Steal: In the eyes of the Pale Prince, Sharaea was stolen from him. The PC must show that not all mortals are thieves. However, theft can be defined in many ways. The Prince maintains that Kasar stole Sharaea’s heart from him. It might be simple enough to avoid stealing objects, but can the warlock avoid stealing ideas?
Vengeful Creed Seek Vengeance: The PC has been granted power to punish his or her enemies. He or she is expected to pursue this quest without hesitation or remorse.
Show No Mercy: The character must be as cold and ruthless as those of the Winter Court. Any sign of weakness or compassion to enemies cannot be tolerated.
Punish the Deserving: Although the character’s personal quest for revenge is top priority, he or she must avenge other slights as well. In the case of the Pale Prince, this revenge should bring loss and sorrow to those who survive it.
Lovelorn Creed Search for Sharaea: Follow any lead concerning the rebirth of Sharaea, and report all findings to the patron. Once Sharaea is found, woo her to the ways of the Winter Court.
Encourage Love: In the past, the Prince of Frost has brought sorrow to lovers so they could share his pain. In this pact, he or another patron seeks to nurture love. The character should freely express love, as well.
Follow Instructions: The PC might be called upon to perform specific tasks. Here, these tasks are likely to do with protecting lovers or strengthening their bond. The character might have some wiggle room with distasteful requests. Directly refusing a request and consistent failure can result in a loss of power or worse.
Tragic Creed Search for Sharaea: Follow any lead concerning the rebirth of Sharaea, and report all findings to the patron.
Spread Sorrow: Every tear the character squeezes from foes is another building block for the court of the Winter Fey.
Follow Instructions: A character who serves the Winter Court directly might receive specific requests at any time. Perhaps a pompous mortal must be humiliated or an artifact needs to be obtained. This works as described in “A Love Lost” above.
It would be nice if a hypothetical Feywild book for 5E could detail archfey patrons for warlocks and provide something like these for them.
Soooo my party has emerged from the camp righteous mini dungeon and Yokka has initiated the stand off. The dungeon went fairly well, one player got zapped by a glyph at the end and is currently at 2 hp.
Now a fight would be largely inconsequential imo because they have both undril and azaka in the group.
However .. the party paladin cast light on right previously and has thrown it at yokka, claiming that it is the treasure from the shrine.
I dont wanna stifle creativity but it feels incredibly cheap allowing that to go through (he got a 12 on deception), particularly as he simply yeeted a priceless artifact.
What's your take on it?
Let the dice decide? Insight check against the 12 by Yokka to figure it out.
I don't understand what "light on right" means, though.
The dice decided already. Deception is opposed by passive insight. I presume "light on right" means cast "light" on an object that may be called "right" but maybe was mispelled and so auto-corrected
yes, damn autofill.
he cast light on a rock at the start of the dungeon.
tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
If the right is trivial and he rolled high enough to deceive yokka then definitely don't no-sell the deception. Why would this trick be cheaper than another useful trick that got something for the party? You definitely should not prevent being tricky from working under all circumstances, so what might make these circumstances extra cheap?
The dice decided already. Deception is opposed by passive insight. I presume "light on right" means cast "light" on an object that may be called "right" but maybe was mispelled and so auto-corrected
I don't know what the passive perception insight of a Goblin is offhand, but an active check to represent Yogga's skepticism isn't out of line, I don't think.
And even if the party pulls off their deception in the moment. The ruse won't hold for more than an hour or so.
Now we have a chase scenario as the party has gotten away with the real relic (which IIRC is a jar of mayonnaise) and has an hour long head start of a gang of goblins in their natural habitat tracking them down to attack during a rest or getting ahead and laying in wait, etc. Etc.
The dice decided already. Deception is opposed by passive insight. I presume "light on right" means cast "light" on an object that may be called "right" but maybe was mispelled and so auto-corrected
I don't know what the passive perception of a Goblin is offhand, but an active check to represent Yogga's skepticism isn't out of line, I don't think.
And even if the party pulls off their deception in the moment. The ruse won't hold for more than an hour or so.
Now we have a chase scenario as the party has gotten away with the real relic (which IIRC is a jar of mayonnaise) and has an hour long head start of a gang of goblins in their natural habitat tracking them down to attack during a rest or getting ahead and laying in wait, etc. Etc.
10+Wisdom (for insight) + proficiency if they have it. 12 could probably trick a goblin.
But opposed checks are bad and you should not use them
They are bad for two reasons plus a bonus reason
1) it’s just more variance in a normal situation
2) multiple oppositions at the same time reduce the probability of success.
3) only roll when you need to and you already rolled
Passive insight/perception is fine for everyday things but in this scenario I reason that Yokka is sceptical.
Again, the paladin just threw the rock at him dismissively, that's no way to treat holy artifacts!
I rolled for an insight check yesterday in preparation for the next session.
nat 1. goblins have a -1 wisdom. so it's a 0.
*facedesk*
I'm going to let it slide
I'll push 'em a tiny bit more by having Yokka ask for a small tribute now that he's the bestest goblin for 30 miles, any gold amount will do it.
The spell will wear off pretty soon and they won't be able to fix the boats the goblins sunk in that time frame, should be interesting.
OK so... you clearly don't want to let it slide. If you don't want to let it slide, don't let it slide. Deception is not a get out of jail free card.
Consider that you can always assign difficulty modifiers (the standard advantage to a passive roll is +5 which makes a goblins passive insight when they would have advantage on the check 14, and you can also give the player disadvantage on a roll if circumstances dictate. So if they're skeptical (advantage on the passive insight) and the player does something to make them have disadvantage on the check you go from a relatively easy check(deception vs 9) to a much harder one(disadvantage vs 14). Effectively granting you a +/- 10 leeway on the modifier for deception difficulty.
And you can always limit the amount of effect of a deception check too. A successful deception check might not convince the goblin that its the truth but it might convince the goblin that the player saying it believes it to be true. Then the question is whether or the goblin thinks the player character is competent rather than whether or not they think the player character is truthful.
It can add flavour too, especially if it helps the plot go forward and you've had then do rolls for things like searching for treasure or trying a bluff route.
The goblin might be impressed that they are so cavalier with such an item, which means they must have loads of them - and so the fight is passed as he runs off to get a bunch of proper fighters and plan an ambush, once they've worked out what it does.
Posts
I wasn't quite happy with the few variants that were out there so I made my own that's a mix of all of them.
It's a hex crawl generator for Tomb of Annihilation using DMG rules for weather (+ToA for storms) with a few other options.
I split the day up into 3 chunks to get a more lively weather feeling, other than that it's all strictly raw.
It is barebones but functional!
https://stoicleaf.github.io/
Pick metamagic adept at level 8 (which they should be close to) and pick "transmute spell"
"When you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder."
That lets your blaster get off two big spells with altering the effect to get around things resistances. It's per long rest, but then most big wizard spells are anyway.
We've been in Avernus for quite a while at this point (we've cleared out like, idk even how many dungeons in a row, by dungeons I mean buildings full of devils) and it looks like next we have to fight a goddamned greater vampire and his court of vampire spawns at level 7 but hey at least they aren't devils
It's Baator, everything here is evil - but sometimes civil.
But speaking as an old Planescape DM, perhaps you could look to find some common ground with these enemies rather than treating everything as a dungeon, and hopefully your DM is ready to play along?
You're not going to redeem hell by killing enough baddies in only one mortal lifetime. If there's something here that's not a devil, then it's likely also fighting the devils or knows which devils you can work with.
Ah yeah, when I walk into a room with children being lowered screaming into a fire one at a time, or see a line of infantry hoisting people on spears, or a bone devil herding hundreds of people into a room so they can gas them with poison - before those forces immediately try and kill my party on sight - I should try ... making peace?
Zariel's forces are in the process of committing genocide, the campaign has been essentially non-stop combat for months trying to get the city's defenders into some kind of organization, and it's made *explicitly* clear that short of tricking the devils into thinking that I am Zariel, they cannot be dissuaded from their task (Which they very much enjoy!)
I'm more than a little offended that the response to me saying "hey I'm thinking of quitting this campaign that is nothing but combat" is "have you tried not doing combat?"
The goal is to rescue a city that's under siege, it has nothing to do with redeeming hell (at least not yet). Redemption doesn't seem to be a part of this campaign, since how evil someone is apparently plays no part in whether they're damned or not, your landlord can just sign your soul away, apparently. I'm sure deus ex machina involves redeeming Zariel herself at the end, but really all Asmodeus needs to do is just have thavius kreeg sign a document damning her to hell and he'll get her back, since he has much right to Zariel's soul as he does every baby in Elturel
I think this is falling into the differences between DMs as well and how they run things and interpret the campaign. The bolded? We did NONE of that. Which I would be in your shoes 100% if thats how my campaign went.
Spoilers below since we're wandering into that territory.
Spoiler Spoilers for how my character ended up - A Man turned into a dog by accident who was also a wizard.
What's fun is Matt Colville's Illrigger class plays right into this conceit, and in a campaign soon I'm going to play one, who was recruited by my previous character.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
but then again I think it's farcical on its face to send what the PHB classifies as "local heroes" against a being that's nigh-unto-a-god so what do I know. Like, all of Elturel with its legions is fucked without our constant assistance. Could the five of us have conquered Elturel? Probably not, given how easily the flaming fist bossed us around! Somehow we can out-muscle all the hellriders put together though, to such an extent that we save the city in a manner of, idk days? ingame we've been in Hell for 2 days I think
I think Avernus is the worst written adventure they've put out since Horde of the Dragon Queen, and the plot holes it opens up in the metaphysics of the world tear at my disbelief. Why not just pull every city into hell? Shit just get some random homeless person in Waterdeep to consign all 2 million souls there to hell, have a donkey sign over Calimshan, cast speak with plants and ask an Oak Tree if you can have the moonwood.
At least our DM is doing good there - he has Zariel deliberately breaking the rules of the multiverse because she's trying to taunt the gods into doing something about it
The campaign (as written) is not nothing but combat, I think your DM is adding a bunch of this in to fill out the chapter - we're questing to save the souls of Eturel as much as the lives of the few survivors.
You're also missing a bit of information about how the signing over of souls work too at this stage - you're right to think that this is strange, until now there hasn't been a way to be damned by proxy.
That said, you're right - the devils won't be persuaded to stop*. But the other fiends and monsters are part of different factions, which then lets you start to play some off against the other - especially as they are going to be having as bad a time with the devils as the mortals will be.
*Though they wouldn't be working on Zariel's orders, but their immediate superior who is relaying what they've been told to do and perhaps what they want to do and say it is coming right from Zariel. The key thing would be to claim to be acting on orders of their superior's superior and be shocked and appalled that they are doing what they are doing - because they are supposed to be somewhere else doing something else equally bad. Try to convince them that their boss is trying to show up his boss (a rival to your boss), and has purposely given misleading instructions, knowing that he can lay the blame on his underlings and get them killed/turned back into mindless lemures before getting found out. A "wait, if you're here - who's guarding the west flank!?" kind of approach. Probably not something good characters can pull off as easily.
since they're in the process of trying to kill every man, woman, and child in the city
like they are universally in the process of feeding people to nightmares or sticking babies on their shoulder spikes every time we encounter them, which is constantly (our entrance to Hell was facing a pair of Narzugons on the back of their nightmares who were doing that "how many people can my sword cut through" thing the japanese did during ww2)
the DM makes it a point to mention how many people died because we long rested last time and found an entire underground cavern full of massacred corpses, I think we're 9 or 10 battles in since the last long rest
we just secured a large stockpile of silvered weapons and duke
but as its presented I feel like if we long rest the place will already be taken, and fuck leaving the city
I'm hoping I can convince the vampire lord to help by pointing out that
not that contracts matter to the lore anymore, but for some reason I can't sign a contract for someone else's soul to gain power, funny that
Or this is a trick you save for when you've come across some fiends that are just about to get up to something terrible (they've just found a safe house but haven't gone in, or are pursuing some of the troops you rallied).
Also thinking about it, whilst they like hurting people, they don't need to with these civilians. Their souls have been claimed already, so there's also the option to convince them to spare the citizens too much hardship in return for a favour when they turn into fiends or convince the fiends that a live human fighter who knows the area is more useful than just another lemure. And the more this scout works for you, the more likely they are to be promoted to a more useful devil on death - one that still owes you a favour for sparing their family and fellow citizens. You could even work a bit of the long game in, suggesting that this person (or even you) will even promise a "Grand Betrayal - like revealing the secret ways into the survivor camps" to ensure that you're getting top lawful evil marks and might even be promoted above the fiend you're dealing with, after they have spared these citizens for x amount of time. But then the betrayal turns out to be you betraying the fiend you made a deal with.
Depends if this is what the DM is after though, I think your campaign at the moment sounds a bit like an attempt to get you more invested in Eturel that's gone a bit off the rails.
Contracts - if you want an explanation. It's not a massive plot effecting spoiler, and something you should be able to find out yourself if you ask almost any NPCs the right question. But if it's irritating you:
As a consequence, the children in Eturel aren't damned. We bugged the otter enough with Sending that eventually he gave in and planeshifted them back to Candlekeep. We gave them a back of gold and some material gathered from Avernus as payment to get them apprenticed if we couldn't get their parents out.
it more sounds like you want me to take over DMing the campaign
I am aware of the details of Thavius' deal
the pact primeval is meaningless if you don't even have to know you're making a deal
I guess I'm saying that if the kind of thing I'm talking about is something you might be into, given slightly different future scenarios rather than the "bursting into the torture chamber" situations you've had previously, then maybe mention it to the DM as you're well off book as it is. I'm not saying give them a list of encounters you want to do, but more ticking clock style encounters that at least give you some alternative options over kill fiends to save innocents, or situations where there are more factions involved rather than citizens and devils.
If not, either get ready for some real tonal shifts in the campaign or a real combat slog, where you're going to quite often be heavily outmatched. It might be the DM has written themselves into a corner - particularly following some of the advice you get for this online, or are even just playing for time a bit as combat heavy sessions do give you more time to prep the set pieces. In which case, asking for a bit more variety might work.
Or they might enjoy being the pantomime villain and have you smite real evil doers - in which case, it's not going to get better.
They're not going to make a good petitioner though, and for the lawful factions there is a quality of soul that comes into play too. The devil that manages this might get a minor promotion if they get a bulk deal of souls and be one to watch, but they're not going to go far if that's all they do.
In this case though, it's Eturel and Zariel - this is personal
you can't 7 degrees of kevin bacon the entire planet into hell in previous lore, and you have to be of the "Age of Reason" (old enough to understand you are committing an evil act) for your soul to be harvested, not ~5 or 6 years old as in the pact in Elturel.
Here is the actual pact, with Thavius, local random person, signing away other people's souls:
This is a Pact Certain from the lore, back when they gave a shit, and certainly dooms Thavius
Agreeing to defend Elturel is not an inherently evil act, the only reason pacts even allow devils to harvest souls, is that *knowingly* singing a Pact Certain is an inherently evil act, one which is nearly irredeemable (but not entirely, as the fiendish codex points out, it is possible to literally "good person" your way out of a contract, but such people are typically hunted down and killed by devils before they can)
So in previous editions, a pact certain:
The last spoiled sentence is key here.
which goes to how my DM is running it.... Zariel doesn't care about the rules
which is perfectly fine - not how its written though
The book is pretty clear that Elturel
but that's just my opinion, I wholeheartedly don't want to shit on other people's enjoyment of the material, I didn't like Mad Mage either and my favorite published campaign is Storm King's Thunder, which a lot of people hate
Given that we're reportedly leaving Elturel next session I think I'll give it another session or two before deciding, but I'm apparently making a warlock pact for my level 7 level up with Mad Maggie, who I have seen Jeremy Crawford roleplay (despite having the book and run the very first part of it, I have done my best to not read any more of it), I am actually a bit excited
I gotta at least give him a few sessions, he admits that he overemphasized the urgency of "Saving Elturel", and should have let us breath more in between fights, he told me tonight his regret was not putting all this extra homebrew content in Baldur's Gate since we all seemed to be having more fun there than in slow-motion-holocaust-city
I think it sucks that you're not having fun in Avernus, because while I haven't really dived into the structure of the module yet I find the whole idea fucking baller. I hope whatever experience I eventually give my players is better received than the one you're getting. But someone one above nailed it though.... how the DM presents the adventure/story/worldbuilding has a LOT to say about the adventure. Like, I feel like with another DM who was not so slavishly adherent to the 2e style of the Ravenloft campaign I would have had a lot more fun in my Ravenloft game. Shit, I own the original module and it fueled much of my early imagination and love for D&D. I legit regret that I'll be missing out on splunking that magnificent castle and taking on that iconic end boss. I don't want to say, "I could have done it better than my actual DM is. Nyah, Nyah. Nyah." but with a different DM or DMing style, I bet I could have had a blast in Barovia and you could be having a blast in Avernus.
Alas for us both.
I'm not sure how much I'd like it as a player
as a player my favorite so far has been curse of strahd, followed by dragon heist, I kind of hated out of the abyss a lot for similar reasons to my current complaints
but like, you can run curse of strahd as written and its fun, Avernus as written is essentially unrunnable
the first fight is 6 bandits and a bandit captain against a level 1 party
they're throwing fireballs at your party by level 2
from what my DM has told me yesterday, he added a lot to Elturel because we liked faffing about baldur's gate so much, but elturel is not fun, and baldur's gate was fun - probably because elturel isn't a city, it's a post-bombardment WW1 battlefield with like, maybe 5% of the population still alive and the only shop is run by a sadistic vampire lord
hopefully meeting mad maggie will change the tone because right now Avernus is like a combination of the curse of strahd game you hate @Steelhawk with just endless dread and no levity, combined with a meat grinder dungeon marathon
edit: I am referring explicitly to the content, there's been a lot of weird shit the players have been getting up to, like me animated the nameless hero's dead body and her turning into Janet from the good place, stuff like that has been great. Also the DM has been giving a lot of personality to the souls in the soul coins
and now everyone's just dumping increasingly lewd pictures of Jarlaxle
*nods solemnly*
My character idea is a gun-toting Twilight Cleric who is all about using darkness to protect the light. The GM has given me kinda carte blanche to come up with the religion, because the world's religious status was kept pretty vague in the last campaign. A few gods existed, and one character did re-establish an old organized religion, but otherwise there's not a lot to go on. Here's what I have so far:
1. Keeping with the light/dark dichotomy in the Twilight domain, I like the idea of this being like a cult that focuses on keeping the horrors of night at bay. They use darkness, the enemy's great weapon, against those same foes in order to protect the light. Gunpowder itself reinforces this, as it is fire and light unleashed from black powder and smoke.
2. Lycanthropy seems like it would be important, either as an ally or enemy, because of its same dual nature. Since the cult is ostensibly good, I'm inclined towards enemies. Perhaps they might aid those afflicted against their will in finding cures, but show no mercy to those who give in? Maybe werebears are the exception since they're good?
3. Slaying monsters and uncovering heresy would be their sort of bread and butter, so I'm looking at the Christian inquisitions for inspiration. I probably ought to look at Warhammer and 40K for more. Then again, they're a lot more hardcore than I'd like. According to Wikipedia, medieval inquisitions would often turn over the unrepentant to the local law enforcement for trial and punishment, which only rarely ended in death.
4. For the god they worship, it kinda feels like this is outside the jurisdiction of any one god, so maybe they'd worship several? A knowledge god to help them find heresies, a god of the hunt to help them track foes, a god of light to align a gunsight, etc.
What sort of sacraments might this religion perform? So far the main one I've got is the anointing of their guns in oil during the ritual of cleansing, and probably adding some prayers to the mix. And what sort of penances? Again, I want it to be Good, so "purge all heretics" is a bit extreme. Perhaps the lighting of candles as a symbolic penance for minor sins, "restoring the light" as it were.
What else should I consider? What other stuff should a religion have?
Does the religion have a hierarchy? How rigid is it spelled out? Are you a newly formed cult where it's just one guy in a fancy hat telling a half dozen people to go restore the light through superior fire power? Or is this an established religion where you could find a chapter in any given town you visit (once you know what to look for)?
If they're really big into using darkness to fight darkness, maybe they enhance their armor or weapons with trophies from their kills? It may not actually add a bonus, but walking around in a werewolf skin cloak would make a statement that you're not up for taking any were-malarky (while also setting you up as an immediate target for were-malarky). Similar plot hooks if you have a collection of vampire fangs or hag scalps dangling from your belt.
I'd think some kind of initiation rite to be officially inducted into the order. Maybe drugs to make them hallucinate and confront their own inner demons before they're accepted to fight the worlds actual demons? Perhaps the rite could leave some kind of distinguishing mark on the character. Oddly colored eyes, ritualistic scars? Maybe this is done at Level 2 and you come out of it with your domain feature.
Burial rites maybe? Keeping with that whole darkness/light dynamic and your comment about gun powder, a funeral pyre that starts with a high smoke powder that gives way to a magnesium fueled white flame could be an awesome visual. Along this line, an inquisitor may carry their own bag of magnesium shavings as a reminder that they're likely to die away from home.
So I guess it's safe to say that there's more MtG setting books for D&D on the way.
Now a fight would be largely inconsequential imo because they have both undril and azaka in the group.
However .. the party paladin cast light on right previously and has thrown it at yokka, claiming that it is the treasure from the shrine.
I dont wanna stifle creativity but it feels incredibly cheap allowing that to go through (he got a 12 on deception), particularly as he simply yeeted a priceless artifact.
What's your take on it?
As to what my party did? Combat, of course.
It would be nice if a hypothetical Feywild book for 5E could detail archfey patrons for warlocks and provide something like these for them.
Let the dice decide? Insight check against the 12 by Yokka to figure it out.
I don't understand what "light on right" means, though.
he cast light on a rock at the start of the dungeon.
I don't know what the passive perception insight of a Goblin is offhand, but an active check to represent Yogga's skepticism isn't out of line, I don't think.
And even if the party pulls off their deception in the moment. The ruse won't hold for more than an hour or so.
Now we have a chase scenario as the party has gotten away with the real relic (which IIRC is a jar of mayonnaise) and has an hour long head start of a gang of goblins in their natural habitat tracking them down to attack during a rest or getting ahead and laying in wait, etc. Etc.
10+Wisdom (for insight) + proficiency if they have it. 12 could probably trick a goblin.
But opposed checks are bad and you should not use them
They are bad for two reasons plus a bonus reason
1) it’s just more variance in a normal situation
2) multiple oppositions at the same time reduce the probability of success.
3) only roll when you need to and you already rolled
Again, the paladin just threw the rock at him dismissively, that's no way to treat holy artifacts!
I rolled for an insight check yesterday in preparation for the next session.
nat 1. goblins have a -1 wisdom. so it's a 0.
*facedesk*
I'm going to let it slide
I'll push 'em a tiny bit more by having Yokka ask for a small tribute now that he's the bestest goblin for 30 miles, any gold amount will do it.
The spell will wear off pretty soon and they won't be able to fix the boats the goblins sunk in that time frame, should be interesting.
Consider that you can always assign difficulty modifiers (the standard advantage to a passive roll is +5 which makes a goblins passive insight when they would have advantage on the check 14, and you can also give the player disadvantage on a roll if circumstances dictate. So if they're skeptical (advantage on the passive insight) and the player does something to make them have disadvantage on the check you go from a relatively easy check(deception vs 9) to a much harder one(disadvantage vs 14). Effectively granting you a +/- 10 leeway on the modifier for deception difficulty.
And you can always limit the amount of effect of a deception check too. A successful deception check might not convince the goblin that its the truth but it might convince the goblin that the player saying it believes it to be true. Then the question is whether or the goblin thinks the player character is competent rather than whether or not they think the player character is truthful.
Anything else is just doing whatever you want, which is ultimately fine, but you should be open and honest about it.
The goblin might be impressed that they are so cavalier with such an item, which means they must have loads of them - and so the fight is passed as he runs off to get a bunch of proper fighters and plan an ambush, once they've worked out what it does.