When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
Oh I absolutely get it: the writing is on the wall and trump is descending into the south american playbook of correcting the masses.
My point though was that voter fraud is a ridiculously insignifigant problem.
When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
I 100% expect Barr to announce an investigation into Biden. Like early Oct. This is going to happen.
My dread is that end of Oct./early Nov. Barr will have Biden arrested.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
I 100% expect Barr to announce an investigation into Biden. Like early Oct. This is going to happen.
My dread is that end of Oct./early Nov. Barr will have Biden arrested.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
I'd have said the same thing about extorting a foreign ally to lie about your political opponent, but here we fucking are.
When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
I 100% expect Barr to announce an investigation into Biden. Like early Oct. This is going to happen.
My dread is that end of Oct./early Nov. Barr will have Biden arrested.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do that, you don't want them to do that, and you damn well shouldn't be counting on them to do that.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good options.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good option.
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good option.
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
I'm sorry, I understood a personal argument if you believed he was a predator and suffered under the same. If this is just I want to vote for 2020's Jill Stein.. then no, I can't truck with that and that's ignoring the larger context.
I try to value many viewpoint but the stakes are too high here. We are going to disagree on this.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good option.
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
I'm sorry, I understood a personal argument if you believed he was a predator and suffered under the same. If this is just I want to vote for 2020's Jill Stein.. then no, I can't truck with that and that's ignoring the larger context.
Well, by all means, continue impolitely shouting at them, if you really think that will bring them to vote for Biden.
So, I only started posting in this thread recently. I only lurked it for a few weeks longer than that. And I'll readily admit that when I have posted in here, it's been by and large from a place of snark, because to be blunt I generally find the contents of this thread to not be deserving of much more than that; I mean, a bunch of y'all just went a page or so arguing about whether to forgive someone for distributing revenge porn of a child immediately or within 5-6 years. So, by and large the comments I've made in here have been flippant and passive aggressive, largely because if I didn't couch my feelings in snark then I'd get ejected from this thread so fast I wouldn't know what hit me. I kind of assume I'm already on thin ice as-is!
I want to try to explain something, with absolute sincerity, and in the hopes that maybe it gets through to somebody, a minimum of anger and emotion. And once I've said my piece here I'm probably gonna fuck off; it's very clear to me that my perspective is largely unwelcome around here, and honestly hate-reading this thread has become an incredibly unproductive and deleterious habit that I need to kick.
Anyway, I'm not quoting this post to pick on you in particular, McRhyno, but because some of the things you said are a really solid springboard for me to say what I want to say.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
This is not an election about good vs. evil. And I'm not trying to shit on Joe Biden here; I've read enough of these threads to know that I wouldn't get a lick of traction doing so. This was never gonna be an election about good vs. evil, no matter who the nominee was. This is an election about evil vs. less evil. Until someone's running on a platform of dismantling the military, paying reparations, ceding control of the stolen land we live on back to its rightful owners, and probably hundreds of other smaller things-in effect, running on a platform of "dismantle the United States"-"good" isn't an option we get at the voting booth. And, obviously, that's not something we're going to see in the foreseeable future, or probably ever; only one of those things has even a sliver of popular support, and if the United States gets dismantled it's almost certainly not happening because we vote to make it happen.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil. Joe Biden would be a better president than Donald Trump because you could pick a random asshole off the street and they would probably be a better president than Donald Trump. That doesn't mean he'll be a good president.
There are good arguments to be made for voting for the lesser evil; in pure like, game theory logic, it's a no-brainer. At bare minimum, the covid crisis would be a lot more manageable if someone with a baseline level of competency was in charge. But this thread consistently downplays and dismisses the concerns of people who are most likely gonna be just as fucked under Biden as they are under Trump. Yelling at people to shut the fuck up and get in line is insulting, and because I don't think that matters to most of you, it's also not productive. That, doesn't seem like something that needs pointed out, but a lotta the folks in here seem like they just can't help themselves but to berate and condescend to people that feel disenfranchised, who feel like the margin between "evil" and "lesser evil" seems to creep thinner and thinner every time the choice arises. Honestly, me pointing out that it's unproductive to try to shame people into voting is ITSELF unproductive, because that's been explained in here I dunno how many times, and I guess y'all must have a good reason for disagreeing because you keep doing it anyway.
And, a big part of what makes this so god damn grating is what I said earlier, that a lot you seem to very quickly forget that a lesser evil is still an evil. It's... perplexing to watch this thread bounce between two modes. In the first, folks style themselves as armchair analysts who dispassionately discuss political strategy from a detached, "realpolitik" perspective, where values and ideologies are nice and all but they don't win votes so shut the fuck up about Colin Powell already. And then in the second mode, a dozen people post about weeping because Biden delivered a well-rehearsed line about empathy or whatever the fuck, with each post like that getting a nice chunk of agrees underneath of it.
And I know that I'm being a bit unfair here, lumping everybody together, but like... I see the armchair analyst types go rabid anytime someone says something critical about the Democrats' motivations or strategies. They'll go on a huge tear about how the Dems are doing their best and doing any better is impossible for x y and z reasons, quit demanding better of your politicians. But when everyone starts crying because Joe Biden did a speech good, there's... No pushback. No one is in here criticizing people for being bedazzled by a piece of political theater. No one's in here pointing out that speeches are just a tool to win votes, that you're taking what amounts to a commercial at face value. So, it's hard not to see those two groups of people as being largely in agreement with one another.
The fawning over speeches just because they're delivered well and reflect more emotion than Donald fucking Trump makes it hard to take all the hard-nosed politics analysis stuff all that seriously. And it also just... Isn't something I understand. I don't understand marking out for a politician. It doesn't make sense to me. These people are our employees, and given the state of the country they're not very good at their jobs. And yes, of COURSE most of that blame lies with the republicans. But the republicans have been the republicans for a long time now, and the Democrats have had a long time to come up with an effective way to combat them and so far they don't seem to have anything. Mostly their strategy seems to be disavowing responsibility, and a lot of y'all are not just willing but EAGER to help them out with that.
Even if you understand that Democrats have a hard job on their hands, even if you root for them because the only alternative is too abhorrent to even contemplate, why do so many of you seem so unwilling to also acknowledge the culpability the Democrats have for the shit-ass country we live in? Why are so many of you so eager to clap for politicians that only seem "good" because they get the privilege of standing in constant contrast to the republican party? Why the fuck aren't you people angrier at them? Why do you seem to reserve all your anger for their critics?
Anytime this kind of criticism is leveled, a dozen people jump in to say that it's unfair. @Henroid says he'll vote for Biden, but that he won't trust him at all in office and is gonna be watching him closely, and an avalanche of people show up to say well yeah duh you should do that with every politician, we're all gonna do that with Biden. And like. Coulda fooled me! Because by and large this thread is nothing but zealous, unwavering defense for Biden and the democratic party's every decision. People that are too consistently critical even get outright told to fuck off, until a mod has to step in with a reminder that it's actually not against the rules to be distrustful and critical of politicians.
I dunno, I'm rambling, and I'm starting to work myself up, which I was explicitly trying not to do. I'm gonna guess that nothing that I just said got through to anybody who doesn't already agree with me, but I'm happy to have gotten it off my chest regardless.
I'mma judge people for not voting for Biden, yeah. "Biden may not solve this problem that Trump will definitely make worse" is not excusable in my mind. I agree there are reasons for not wanting to vote for Biden and for wanting a better person to vote for (remember, basically no one in the forum wanted Biden!). But when it comes down to the vote in November, there are only two choices to make. Help Trump, or help Biden. There's no third option, everything boils down to one of those.
I try my best to understand and empathize with those who choose to help Trump. I hope that I can help them see why helping Trump is not a very good choice. No, I'm not gonna do that by yelling at them :P . But I also don't think it's fair for anyone else to tell me that I'm not even allowed to have an opinion on someone who chooses to help Trump. That doesn't seem right either.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited August 2020
A lot of us simply realize that we are in the middle of the middle of Niemoller's poem, and so we are aware that there is a significant difference between what we do on November 3, and what we do on November 4. We need to ensure the safety of the Nation before we ensure that Biden doesn't just pull the knife halfway out.
Otherwise it doesn't fucking matter, really. We will be well on our way to actual electoralism.
The most impressive thing to me about it is how it flowed from empathetic acknowledgement of struggles, plans to solve problems and righteous anger againsnt Trump.
Biden: I know that black hole in your heart when you lose the people you love...
Trump: It is what it is...
You undecideds.. you people who think writing in Sanders or Warren or AOC is some incredible mark. GET IT FUCKING TOGETHER
This is not about scoring personal points or pats on the back. More than ever this is good versus evil. A vote that doesn't go for Biden is a vote for a kid in a cage and letting a virus run free. I cannot be polite. I cannot mince words. You know the consequences and it's time to actually vote with some conscience.
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good option.
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
I'm sorry, I understood a personal argument if you believed he was a predator and suffered under the same. If this is just I want to vote for 2020's Jill Stein.. then no, I can't truck with that and that's ignoring the larger context.
Well, by all means, continue impolitely shouting at them, if you really think that will bring them to vote for Biden.
Cynically...I suppose it might get other groups to be more likely to vote, if you don't mind turning some 'probably nots' into 'definitely nots' by dunking on them to score points elsewhere.
Yelling at people to shut the fuck up and get in line is insulting, and because I don't think that matters to most of you, it's also not productive. That, doesn't seem like something that needs pointed out, but a lotta the folks in here seem like they just can't help themselves but berating and condescending to people that feel disenfranchised, who feel like the margin between "evil" and "lesser evil" seems to creep thinner and thinner every time the choice arises. Honestly, me pointing out that it's unproductive to try to shame people into voting is ITSELF unproductive, because that's been explained in here I dunno how many times, and I guess y'all must have a good reason for disagreeing because you keep doing it anyway.
You know what? You're right, it's not productive and I'm sorry. Thank you for challenging what I've said. I'm the very definition of enfranchised and I can't truly have lived your perspective. I shouldn't try to shame people into voting but I feel that we won't make any progress until this orange abomination is out of office.
A top Biden advisor essentially pushing for austerity in an interview the other day. Hey, worked for Herbert Hoover!
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Thursday raised the alarm after a top aide to presidential nominee Joe Biden said the burgeoning national debt might require more limited government spending. ... "When we get in, the pantry is going to be bare," Biden aide Ted Kaufman said. "When you see what Trump's done to the deficit …forget about Covid-19, all the deficits that he built with the incredible tax cuts. So we're going to be limited."
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
I'm sorry, but I don't really agree with the thesis here
There's obviously huge caveats - the biggest one being, (annoyingly), if you live outside of like 10 states that are close vote for whoever you want - it doesn't matter... and the sexual assault issue is a bit distinct (especially if it's personal), I'm not going to go there
But if you live in Florida or Michigan - the reality is, in Jan 2021, one of Trump or Biden will be president. There's a lot of ways you can express your displeasure with those choices, and if you want to protest day 1 of Biden's presidency I'm all for it - but saying 'Biden won't do enough for immigrants so I'm going to pass on that choice' is increasing the likelihood that it's Trump - who is inarguably going to do less for treatment of immigrants. The US political system is set up in a way that sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils, otherwise you get the greater.
I'm not saying you should be out there yelling at people; but if it's just an issues thing - people do need to recognize that these 3rd party votes don't actually achieve anything. Organizing, protesting, primarying conservatives to get progressives in - those have all worked (and made huge changes in the Dem platform) just in the last decade; people throwing votes to the Green party doesn't achieve any of those things.
I would argue the line between evil and less evil is getting bigger, but only because evil keeps getting more evil, or at least more nakedly so. But that's a quibble of a detail, and I'll concede that "less evil" doesn't appear to be getting measurably closer to good, even in the scope of what's electorally possible
The fawning over speeches just because they're delivered well and reflect more emotion than Donald fucking Trump makes it hard to take all the hard-nosed politics analysis stuff all that seriously. And it also just... Isn't something I understand. I don't understand marking out for a politician. It doesn't make sense to me. These people are our employees, and given the state of the country they're not very good at their jobs. And yes, of COURSE most of that blame lies with the republicans. But the republicans have been the republicans for a long time now, and the Democrats have had a long time to come up with an effective way to combat them and so far they don't seem to have anything. Mostly their strategy seems to be disavowing responsibility, and a lot of y'all are not just willing but EAGER to help them out with that.
Even if you understand that Democrats have a hard job on their hands, even if you root for them because the only alternative is too abhorrent to even contemplate, why do so many of you seem so unwilling to also acknowledge the culpability the Democrats have for the shit-ass country we live in? Why are so many of you so eager to clap for politicians that only seem "good" because they get the privilege of standing in constant contrast to the republican party? Why the fuck aren't you people angrier at them? Why do you seem to reserve all your anger for their critics?
Speed, I honestly want to know what you want the dems to do in this context? They were were bad at electoral politics which is not the same as voting for bad policies.
I'm also reaching a point where I think maybe it should become a thing where, once there's a presumptive nominee and the primaries are over in a "just waiting for the clock to run out" sense, maybe that should be the time for the airing of grievances, at the least until the conventions are done. Then maybe yeah time to talk about "falling in line" but I do think a bit of time and space to complain is both valid and ultimately healthy.
I'm not ... excited about Biden, and I'm already annoyed at having to deal with Harris in the next primary (but hopeful she'll not only move left in the meantime, but do the work to show she's done so), but I also think turning every complaint into a fight is really, really unhealthy and ultimately going to turn folks away.
It's completely fucked up that the Democratic national convention gave a bunch of speaking time and headlines to Republicans. It's also understandable from a realpolitik angle, but that doesn't change how much it's going to frustrate folks.
Like, how against the Iraq war can Biden really be after giving a voice to Powell? What does that action say about his regrets toward that choice?
Remember, Harris is already one of the leftest Senators based on voting records. I also hope she moves more left, but if she doesn't she'll still be pulling everyone else left still anyways.
I'm also reaching a point where I think maybe it should become a thing where, once there's a presumptive nominee and the primaries are over in a "just waiting for the clock to run out" sense, maybe that should be the time for the airing of grievances, at the least until the conventions are done. Then maybe yeah time to talk about "falling in line" but I do think a bit of time and space to complain is both valid and ultimately healthy.
I'm not ... excited about Biden, and I'm already annoyed at having to deal with Harris in the next primary (but hopeful she'll not only move left in the meantime, but do the work to show she's done so), but I also think turning every complaint into a fight is really, really unhealthy and ultimately going to turn folks away.
It's completely fucked up that the Democratic national convention gave a bunch of speaking time and headlines to Republicans. It's also understandable from a realpolitik angle, but that doesn't change how much it's going to frustrate folks.
Like, how against the Iraq war can Biden really be after giving a voice to Powell? What does that action say about his regrets toward that choice?
They have done the Republican thing for a long time.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
It's an emotional election for a lot of people and anyone who tries to deny those emotions is in the wrong. Same goes for denying the doubt. Progress made on issues like LGBTQUIA acceptance didn't happen because of status quo, it happened in spite of it. And what little progress was made is starting to backslide, without much of a historical guarantee that it'll be reversed if the election goes "well." Anything you can point to about "well under the Obama years," etc, doesn't matter to a 30-something who spent the majority of their life oppressed. And to the 20-something, you're talking about half their life. Trying to make excuses for the Democrats' involvement in keeping things so bad until relatively recently has shades of Republicans insisting racism "ended" in the 1960s and such. "It's over why are you still talking about it?" Because it never stopped being a problem, nor is your team the heroes you claim it to be.
People have been living their life oppressed, having to be dishonest with themselves for the sake of appearances and ability to get by. This is just ONE example of peoples' uncertainty about this election cycle. There are other marginalized peoples who have reasons to be wary or wanting to disengage. Telling those people to stop worrying, that it will be okay, etc, it's not for people outside of those groups to do. And if you insist that it is your place to be doing so, then you aren't helping, and certainly aren't an ally of any one or many groups of marginalized peoples.
Remember, Harris is already one of the leftest Senators based on voting records. I also hope she moves more left, but if she doesn't she'll still be pulling everyone else left still anyways.
Yes, but half of one Senate term is not a very established record. Her record is good! But very short. For a lot of folks it doesn't yet do enough to show she's meaningfully moved left on some really major issues, like LGBT rights and policing issues. Those are things she really needs to put in some work toward.
When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
I 100% expect Barr to announce an investigation into Biden. Like early Oct. This is going to happen.
My dread is that end of Oct./early Nov. Barr will have Biden arrested.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do that, you don't want them to do that, and you damn well shouldn't be counting on them to do that.
I mean, no: I don't want that. But if the great experiment in self governance that is the united states is going to achieve a fail state because Trump is borrowing from banana republic strategems then it might as well follow this to the logical conclusion wherein the joint chiefs throw him and his family out on the street.
The fawning over speeches just because they're delivered well and reflect more emotion than Donald fucking Trump makes it hard to take all the hard-nosed politics analysis stuff all that seriously. And it also just... Isn't something I understand. I don't understand marking out for a politician. It doesn't make sense to me. These people are our employees, and given the state of the country they're not very good at their jobs. And yes, of COURSE most of that blame lies with the republicans. But the republicans have been the republicans for a long time now, and the Democrats have had a long time to come up with an effective way to combat them and so far they don't seem to have anything. Mostly their strategy seems to be disavowing responsibility, and a lot of y'all are not just willing but EAGER to help them out with that.
Even if you understand that Democrats have a hard job on their hands, even if you root for them because the only alternative is too abhorrent to even contemplate, why do so many of you seem so unwilling to also acknowledge the culpability the Democrats have for the shit-ass country we live in? Why are so many of you so eager to clap for politicians that only seem "good" because they get the privilege of standing in constant contrast to the republican party? Why the fuck aren't you people angrier at them? Why do you seem to reserve all your anger for their critics?
Speed, I honestly want to know what you want the dems to do in this context? They were were bad at electoral politics which is not the same as voting for bad policies.
To be honest, it's not my job to come up with solutions. Is that unfair of me? Maybe, sure. But these people signed up to govern the country, and that means they're responsible for when it's governed poorly. My job is to voice my discontent with the state of my country; their job is to figure out what to do about it. And if that's too much for them, then they need to get the fuck out of the way and let someone else take a crack at it. As far as I'm concerned they don't deserve praise until and unless they do.
I also kind of reject the premise that they're doing all that they can. I don't believe that they are. I've spent my entire life watching Republicans pull off magic trick after magic trick to turn wildly unpopular ideas into reality, and while I acknowledge that there's differences in the goals between the parties that makes things a bit easier for them, I don't accept the premise that "good things aren't possible now, but maybe they will be later." I think that if you stick to that framing then "later" is never going to actually arrive.
When asked if he would have poll watchers or others monitoring the election, Trump gave an ominous answer. “We’re going to have everything. We’re going to have sheriffs, and we’re going to have law enforcement, and we’re going to hopefully have U.S. attorneys and we’re going to have everybody, and attorney generals. But it’s very hard.”
This snuck in while we were all watching the Convention. The last part is I think because everyone is telling him he can't its the states. But this is scary.
I mean, there probably will be voter fraud but it's going to be so statistically insignificant as to be meaningless; I heard one guy state that more people were hit by lighting in the US each year between 2000-2012 then had engaged in voter fraud in all of the elections during the associated time period.
You don't get it. They're going to cause it, and/or use it as an excuse to intimidate voters. This is voter suppression kicking into high gear. They're going to try to steal the election.
I 100% expect Barr to announce an investigation into Biden. Like early Oct. This is going to happen.
My dread is that end of Oct./early Nov. Barr will have Biden arrested.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do that, you don't want them to do that, and you damn well shouldn't be counting on them to do that.
I mean, no: I don't want that. But if the great experiment in self governance that is the united states is going to achieve a fail state because Trump is borrowing from banana republic strategems then it might as well follow this to the logical conclusion wherein the joint chiefs throw him and his family out on the street.
That is not the fail state I am presently terrified of, and expect to be for the next two months (at least).
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Remember, Harris is already one of the leftest Senators based on voting records. I also hope she moves more left, but if she doesn't she'll still be pulling everyone else left still anyways.
Relativism is a thing. If leftists voters aren't happy with her "most left" voting record, then she clearly has problems (and it also speaks to how inadequate the Senators as a whole are to this voting block) - past or present (with the past being something politicians have to very directly correct, not just be better in general).
A voting block can and should decide for itself if a candidate is satisfactory. Another voting block doesn't get to make that decision for them. It'd be one thing if it was comments centered on "sorry it isn't quite what you wanted" or talking about the best that can be mustered up for the moment. But when it comes with the condescending, "This is how it is supposed to be" messaging, it's off-putting.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Even if you understand that Democrats have a hard job on their hands, even if you root for them because the only alternative is too abhorrent to even contemplate, why do so many of you seem so unwilling to also acknowledge the culpability the Democrats have for the shit-ass country we live in?
Because it's not so much a problem "the democrats" as it is a problem with the country as a whole. If the American voters have flawed views, then they're always going to elect flawed candidates.
FDR made incredible progress with the New Deal. He was also incredibly racist. Because a non-racist candidate wouldn't have gotten elected in the first place.
The best we can do is try to elect flawed candidates who are moving in the right direction, rather than the wrong direction.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Can elaborate more on this? Because your logic doesn't follow for me.
Because if the other guy chooses which 5 to save and which to let die, to the families who lost someone, it absolutely is still evil.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The problem with the "well this is how the country" votes argument is that it conveniently ignores:
- the voter turnout rate
- the structure of voting to begin with, namely that there isn't "none of the above" options for people unhappy with both / any choices in candidates
- the two party system existing at all
- neither party accepting people into membership at the civil service level unless they strictly adhere to specific views and never challenge the system itself
- a lack of helping younger generations prep and directly get involved in their government, not just by voting, but choosing to run for offices
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Surely Speed has made their meaning plain? In their own words, they desire a candidate who will commit to:
a platform of dismantling the military, paying reparations, ceding control of the stolen land we live on back to its rightful owners, and probably hundreds of other smaller things-in effect, running on a platform of "dismantle the United States"
im gonna go ahead and take a controversial stand here: people who self-describe their political views as "dismantle the United States" should not be welcome in the tent.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Can elaborate more on this? Because your logic doesn't follow for me.
Because if the other guy chooses which 5 to save and which to let die, to the families who lost someone, it absolutely is still evil.
If someone considers that evil their priorities may be a little out of wack. The example was explictly neutral in chosing.
Likewise, Speed Racer's ideals would require a great deal of evil despite being phrased as good. Because "give the land back" and do what, precisely, with the millions of people who live on it? Going to go for a little ethnic clensing here?
Speaking of, Trump will end DACA. Biden won't. Is "Everyone with DACA gets deported or shoved in a camp" the option anyone wants to help happen? Because that's on the table and it's almost certainly just the apatizer.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Can elaborate more on this? Because your logic doesn't follow for me.
Because if the other guy chooses which 5 to save and which to let die, to the families who lost someone, it absolutely is still evil.
If someone considers that evil their priorities may be a little out of wack. The example was explictly neutral in chosing.
Likewise, Speed Racer's ideals would require a great deal of evil despite being phrased as good. Because "give the land back" and do what, precisely, with the millions of people who live on it? Going to go for a little ethnic clensing here?
Speaking of, Trump will end DACA. Biden won't. Is "Everyone with DACA gets deported or shoved in a camp" the option anyone wants to help happen? Because that's on the table and it's almost certainly just the apatizer.
Slippery slope aside, working with native peoples about how to handle the land would be a good start. Pretty sure they wouldn't mind at this point if people continued to live where they live, provided the natives get to say what happens as far as regulations and such go. For starters, oil companies would get told to fuck off (nicely!) with their pipelines. Just an example.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I mean you guys are doing what Republicans do to Centrist Democrats all the time; take the presented idea and run to a wild-ass conclusion to make it bad.
Dismantling the military doesn't mean having no military at all. It means the structure of our current military is bad for a lot of reasons, and how we use that military as well. Change how you train the troops, what you train them for, change their deployment times, change where they deploy, change their funding, etc etc etc etc etc
It's a massive discussion to have, and you can either have it (not here), or you can keep presenting leftists as wanting some sort of apocalyptic scenario.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Can elaborate more on this? Because your logic doesn't follow for me.
Because if the other guy chooses which 5 to save and which to let die, to the families who lost someone, it absolutely is still evil.
If someone considers that evil their priorities may be a little out of wack. The example was explictly neutral in chosing.
Likewise, Speed Racer's ideals would require a great deal of evil despite being phrased as good. Because "give the land back" and do what, precisely, with the millions of people who live on it? Going to go for a little ethnic clensing here?
Speaking of, Trump will end DACA. Biden won't. Is "Everyone with DACA gets deported or shoved in a camp" the option anyone wants to help happen? Because that's on the table and it's almost certainly just the apatizer.
Ah yes, the ethnicity of *checks notes* shit loads of farm land.
My job is to voice my discontent with the state of my country; their job is to figure out what to do about it. And if that's too much for them, then they need to get the fuck out of the way and let someone else take a crack at it.
So republicans then?
Because that's how you elect republicans.
If the democrats decide to bow out of the election, they don't get to decide who gets to step in instead. The republicans will make that decision for them.
I also kind of reject the premise that they're doing all that they can. I don't believe that they are. I've spent my entire life watching Republicans pull off magic trick after magic trick to turn wildly unpopular ideas into reality, and while I acknowledge that there's differences in the goals between the parties that makes things a bit easier for them, I don't accept the premise that "good things aren't possible now, but maybe they will be later." I think that if you stick to that framing then "later" is never going to actually arrive.
The Republicans manage to pull of these magic tricks by capitalizing on racism and xenophobia.
Do you think that's what democrats should be doing?
Are you aware of the entire point of the Southern Strategy? The entire reason why democrats are in this position today is because LBJ thought that the Civil Rights Act was more important than maintaining the racist vote, and it turns out that a lot of the country was racist. Likewise, the GOP realize they could make white people hate the war on poverty by portraying welfare as a black thing.
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Oh I absolutely get it: the writing is on the wall and trump is descending into the south american playbook of correcting the masses.
My point though was that voter fraud is a ridiculously insignifigant problem.
I'm pretty sure arresting your political opponent to avoid defeat in an open election would be the kind of thing that gets the joint chiefs to inform you that you are no longer president.
I'd have said the same thing about extorting a foreign ally to lie about your political opponent, but here we fucking are.
I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do that, you don't want them to do that, and you damn well shouldn't be counting on them to do that.
Why's he running dad?
Because we have to poll him...
He didn't want to run...
Because he's the candidate america needs, deserves doesn't matter
so we'll hound him, because he can take it
because he's not our hero
he's a silly grandpa
a quality person
a DE knight
As someone who supported both Sanders and Warren, and is planning to vote Biden, please don't do this. There are people who, in their heart of hearts, cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who was credibly accused of sexual assault. They cannot vote for Biden without betraying themselves, and I for one do not think they need to "get it fucking together."
Most of your larger point is valid, but please don't judge folks purely for not being willing to pull the lever for Biden. At least be willing to ask the follow up question, and have some damn empathy.
Apologies, I let emotion get the better of me. I disagree that her accusation was credible in this instance based on what I've heard, but I understand and agree that we need to hear and examine every accusation rather than dismissing which has so often been the case.
If you feel her accusation is credible, I'm sorry that you are not presented with any good options.
To be clear, that was just the first thing that jumped to my mind. There's also folks who will rightly argue that "kids in cages" is as much the fault of Obama/Biden as it was Trump, though that's at least slightly grayer in my mind, but there's certainly enough there that "Biden won't do enough to fix the crisis around the treatment of immigrants" is a credible reason not to vote for him if someone feels that strongly about it.
There's reasons, good reasons, for someone to be unable to bring themselves to vote for Biden. Especially right now, so far out from having to actually make the decision whether or not to fill in the bubble or pull the level or whatever.
My point is that the best way to address those concerns is not impolite shouting, but rather genuine empathy. Give folks a chance to voice their concerns, to have the conversations, without it being a debate or an argument, and let folks make the choice that's best for them in their heart, and encourage everyone to vote for the most progressive/liberal/left/Democratic candidate that, in their heart, they can vote for. And to give their time and energy wherever and for whoever they can, as well.
I'm sorry, I understood a personal argument if you believed he was a predator and suffered under the same. If this is just I want to vote for 2020's Jill Stein.. then no, I can't truck with that and that's ignoring the larger context.
I try to value many viewpoint but the stakes are too high here. We are going to disagree on this.
Well, by all means, continue impolitely shouting at them, if you really think that will bring them to vote for Biden.
I want to try to explain something, with absolute sincerity, and in the hopes that maybe it gets through to somebody, a minimum of anger and emotion. And once I've said my piece here I'm probably gonna fuck off; it's very clear to me that my perspective is largely unwelcome around here, and honestly hate-reading this thread has become an incredibly unproductive and deleterious habit that I need to kick.
Anyway, I'm not quoting this post to pick on you in particular, McRhyno, but because some of the things you said are a really solid springboard for me to say what I want to say.
This is not an election about good vs. evil. And I'm not trying to shit on Joe Biden here; I've read enough of these threads to know that I wouldn't get a lick of traction doing so. This was never gonna be an election about good vs. evil, no matter who the nominee was. This is an election about evil vs. less evil. Until someone's running on a platform of dismantling the military, paying reparations, ceding control of the stolen land we live on back to its rightful owners, and probably hundreds of other smaller things-in effect, running on a platform of "dismantle the United States"-"good" isn't an option we get at the voting booth. And, obviously, that's not something we're going to see in the foreseeable future, or probably ever; only one of those things has even a sliver of popular support, and if the United States gets dismantled it's almost certainly not happening because we vote to make it happen.
What's... frustrating, is that sometimes a lot y'all seem to understand that that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the lesser evil. But, it very frequently seems to get forgotten about in here that the lesser evil is still evil. Joe Biden would be a better president than Donald Trump because you could pick a random asshole off the street and they would probably be a better president than Donald Trump. That doesn't mean he'll be a good president.
There are good arguments to be made for voting for the lesser evil; in pure like, game theory logic, it's a no-brainer. At bare minimum, the covid crisis would be a lot more manageable if someone with a baseline level of competency was in charge. But this thread consistently downplays and dismisses the concerns of people who are most likely gonna be just as fucked under Biden as they are under Trump. Yelling at people to shut the fuck up and get in line is insulting, and because I don't think that matters to most of you, it's also not productive. That, doesn't seem like something that needs pointed out, but a lotta the folks in here seem like they just can't help themselves but to berate and condescend to people that feel disenfranchised, who feel like the margin between "evil" and "lesser evil" seems to creep thinner and thinner every time the choice arises. Honestly, me pointing out that it's unproductive to try to shame people into voting is ITSELF unproductive, because that's been explained in here I dunno how many times, and I guess y'all must have a good reason for disagreeing because you keep doing it anyway.
And, a big part of what makes this so god damn grating is what I said earlier, that a lot you seem to very quickly forget that a lesser evil is still an evil. It's... perplexing to watch this thread bounce between two modes. In the first, folks style themselves as armchair analysts who dispassionately discuss political strategy from a detached, "realpolitik" perspective, where values and ideologies are nice and all but they don't win votes so shut the fuck up about Colin Powell already. And then in the second mode, a dozen people post about weeping because Biden delivered a well-rehearsed line about empathy or whatever the fuck, with each post like that getting a nice chunk of agrees underneath of it.
And I know that I'm being a bit unfair here, lumping everybody together, but like... I see the armchair analyst types go rabid anytime someone says something critical about the Democrats' motivations or strategies. They'll go on a huge tear about how the Dems are doing their best and doing any better is impossible for x y and z reasons, quit demanding better of your politicians. But when everyone starts crying because Joe Biden did a speech good, there's... No pushback. No one is in here criticizing people for being bedazzled by a piece of political theater. No one's in here pointing out that speeches are just a tool to win votes, that you're taking what amounts to a commercial at face value. So, it's hard not to see those two groups of people as being largely in agreement with one another.
The fawning over speeches just because they're delivered well and reflect more emotion than Donald fucking Trump makes it hard to take all the hard-nosed politics analysis stuff all that seriously. And it also just... Isn't something I understand. I don't understand marking out for a politician. It doesn't make sense to me. These people are our employees, and given the state of the country they're not very good at their jobs. And yes, of COURSE most of that blame lies with the republicans. But the republicans have been the republicans for a long time now, and the Democrats have had a long time to come up with an effective way to combat them and so far they don't seem to have anything. Mostly their strategy seems to be disavowing responsibility, and a lot of y'all are not just willing but EAGER to help them out with that.
Even if you understand that Democrats have a hard job on their hands, even if you root for them because the only alternative is too abhorrent to even contemplate, why do so many of you seem so unwilling to also acknowledge the culpability the Democrats have for the shit-ass country we live in? Why are so many of you so eager to clap for politicians that only seem "good" because they get the privilege of standing in constant contrast to the republican party? Why the fuck aren't you people angrier at them? Why do you seem to reserve all your anger for their critics?
Anytime this kind of criticism is leveled, a dozen people jump in to say that it's unfair. @Henroid says he'll vote for Biden, but that he won't trust him at all in office and is gonna be watching him closely, and an avalanche of people show up to say well yeah duh you should do that with every politician, we're all gonna do that with Biden. And like. Coulda fooled me! Because by and large this thread is nothing but zealous, unwavering defense for Biden and the democratic party's every decision. People that are too consistently critical even get outright told to fuck off, until a mod has to step in with a reminder that it's actually not against the rules to be distrustful and critical of politicians.
I dunno, I'm rambling, and I'm starting to work myself up, which I was explicitly trying not to do. I'm gonna guess that nothing that I just said got through to anybody who doesn't already agree with me, but I'm happy to have gotten it off my chest regardless.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I'mma judge people for not voting for Biden, yeah. "Biden may not solve this problem that Trump will definitely make worse" is not excusable in my mind. I agree there are reasons for not wanting to vote for Biden and for wanting a better person to vote for (remember, basically no one in the forum wanted Biden!). But when it comes down to the vote in November, there are only two choices to make. Help Trump, or help Biden. There's no third option, everything boils down to one of those.
I try my best to understand and empathize with those who choose to help Trump. I hope that I can help them see why helping Trump is not a very good choice. No, I'm not gonna do that by yelling at them :P . But I also don't think it's fair for anyone else to tell me that I'm not even allowed to have an opinion on someone who chooses to help Trump. That doesn't seem right either.
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Otherwise it doesn't fucking matter, really. We will be well on our way to actual electoralism.
Cynically...I suppose it might get other groups to be more likely to vote, if you don't mind turning some 'probably nots' into 'definitely nots' by dunking on them to score points elsewhere.
You know what? You're right, it's not productive and I'm sorry. Thank you for challenging what I've said. I'm the very definition of enfranchised and I can't truly have lived your perspective. I shouldn't try to shame people into voting but I feel that we won't make any progress until this orange abomination is out of office.
https://www.businessinsider.com/aoc-calls-biden-aides-opposition-to-deficit-spending-extremely-concerning-2020-8
I'm sorry, but I don't really agree with the thesis here
There's obviously huge caveats - the biggest one being, (annoyingly), if you live outside of like 10 states that are close vote for whoever you want - it doesn't matter... and the sexual assault issue is a bit distinct (especially if it's personal), I'm not going to go there
But if you live in Florida or Michigan - the reality is, in Jan 2021, one of Trump or Biden will be president. There's a lot of ways you can express your displeasure with those choices, and if you want to protest day 1 of Biden's presidency I'm all for it - but saying 'Biden won't do enough for immigrants so I'm going to pass on that choice' is increasing the likelihood that it's Trump - who is inarguably going to do less for treatment of immigrants. The US political system is set up in a way that sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils, otherwise you get the greater.
I'm not saying you should be out there yelling at people; but if it's just an issues thing - people do need to recognize that these 3rd party votes don't actually achieve anything. Organizing, protesting, primarying conservatives to get progressives in - those have all worked (and made huge changes in the Dem platform) just in the last decade; people throwing votes to the Green party doesn't achieve any of those things.
I'm not ... excited about Biden, and I'm already annoyed at having to deal with Harris in the next primary (but hopeful she'll not only move left in the meantime, but do the work to show she's done so), but I also think turning every complaint into a fight is really, really unhealthy and ultimately going to turn folks away.
It's completely fucked up that the Democratic national convention gave a bunch of speaking time and headlines to Republicans. It's also understandable from a realpolitik angle, but that doesn't change how much it's going to frustrate folks.
Like, how against the Iraq war can Biden really be after giving a voice to Powell? What does that action say about his regrets toward that choice?
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They have done the Republican thing for a long time.
People have been living their life oppressed, having to be dishonest with themselves for the sake of appearances and ability to get by. This is just ONE example of peoples' uncertainty about this election cycle. There are other marginalized peoples who have reasons to be wary or wanting to disengage. Telling those people to stop worrying, that it will be okay, etc, it's not for people outside of those groups to do. And if you insist that it is your place to be doing so, then you aren't helping, and certainly aren't an ally of any one or many groups of marginalized peoples.
Yes, but half of one Senate term is not a very established record. Her record is good! But very short. For a lot of folks it doesn't yet do enough to show she's meaningfully moved left on some really major issues, like LGBT rights and policing issues. Those are things she really needs to put in some work toward.
I mean, no: I don't want that. But if the great experiment in self governance that is the united states is going to achieve a fail state because Trump is borrowing from banana republic strategems then it might as well follow this to the logical conclusion wherein the joint chiefs throw him and his family out on the street.
To be honest, it's not my job to come up with solutions. Is that unfair of me? Maybe, sure. But these people signed up to govern the country, and that means they're responsible for when it's governed poorly. My job is to voice my discontent with the state of my country; their job is to figure out what to do about it. And if that's too much for them, then they need to get the fuck out of the way and let someone else take a crack at it. As far as I'm concerned they don't deserve praise until and unless they do.
I also kind of reject the premise that they're doing all that they can. I don't believe that they are. I've spent my entire life watching Republicans pull off magic trick after magic trick to turn wildly unpopular ideas into reality, and while I acknowledge that there's differences in the goals between the parties that makes things a bit easier for them, I don't accept the premise that "good things aren't possible now, but maybe they will be later." I think that if you stick to that framing then "later" is never going to actually arrive.
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That is not the fail state I am presently terrified of, and expect to be for the next two months (at least).
A voting block can and should decide for itself if a candidate is satisfactory. Another voting block doesn't get to make that decision for them. It'd be one thing if it was comments centered on "sorry it isn't quite what you wanted" or talking about the best that can be mustered up for the moment. But when it comes with the condescending, "This is how it is supposed to be" messaging, it's off-putting.
Can you explain how Joe Biden would make things worse than they are right now? An example where Biden is a step backwards?
Because if not, then that's not really a lesser evil.
If a building with 10 people inside is on fire and one guy is proposing dousing the fire in gasoline and the other guy is declaring that we only have enough time to rescue the 5 people who live closest to the exit, I don't consider the second person evil just because he wasn't able to save the other 5.
Because it's not so much a problem "the democrats" as it is a problem with the country as a whole. If the American voters have flawed views, then they're always going to elect flawed candidates.
FDR made incredible progress with the New Deal. He was also incredibly racist. Because a non-racist candidate wouldn't have gotten elected in the first place.
The best we can do is try to elect flawed candidates who are moving in the right direction, rather than the wrong direction.
Can elaborate more on this? Because your logic doesn't follow for me.
Because if the other guy chooses which 5 to save and which to let die, to the families who lost someone, it absolutely is still evil.
- the voter turnout rate
- the structure of voting to begin with, namely that there isn't "none of the above" options for people unhappy with both / any choices in candidates
- the two party system existing at all
- neither party accepting people into membership at the civil service level unless they strictly adhere to specific views and never challenge the system itself
- a lack of helping younger generations prep and directly get involved in their government, not just by voting, but choosing to run for offices
Surely Speed has made their meaning plain? In their own words, they desire a candidate who will commit to:
If someone considers that evil their priorities may be a little out of wack. The example was explictly neutral in chosing.
Likewise, Speed Racer's ideals would require a great deal of evil despite being phrased as good. Because "give the land back" and do what, precisely, with the millions of people who live on it? Going to go for a little ethnic clensing here?
Speaking of, Trump will end DACA. Biden won't. Is "Everyone with DACA gets deported or shoved in a camp" the option anyone wants to help happen? Because that's on the table and it's almost certainly just the apatizer.
sigh
Dismantling the military doesn't mean having no military at all. It means the structure of our current military is bad for a lot of reasons, and how we use that military as well. Change how you train the troops, what you train them for, change their deployment times, change where they deploy, change their funding, etc etc etc etc etc
It's a massive discussion to have, and you can either have it (not here), or you can keep presenting leftists as wanting some sort of apocalyptic scenario.
Ah yes, the ethnicity of *checks notes* shit loads of farm land.
What the shit.
So republicans then?
Because that's how you elect republicans.
If the democrats decide to bow out of the election, they don't get to decide who gets to step in instead. The republicans will make that decision for them.
The Republicans manage to pull of these magic tricks by capitalizing on racism and xenophobia.
Do you think that's what democrats should be doing?
Are you aware of the entire point of the Southern Strategy? The entire reason why democrats are in this position today is because LBJ thought that the Civil Rights Act was more important than maintaining the racist vote, and it turns out that a lot of the country was racist. Likewise, the GOP realize they could make white people hate the war on poverty by portraying welfare as a black thing.