FishmanPut your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain.Registered Userregular
I just had a run where S&S gave me an entropic brew to use against the heart. Drinking that entropic brew gave me another entropic brew, which then gave me a third entropic brew after that. I was half wondering if I had lucked into an infinite potion loop, but alas, the potion chain stopped there.
Still lost, because S&S had also only left me with 30hp after clearing them. But man, for a moment there I still had hope. Came closer than I thought I would, though.
I once accidentally killed the heart without any attacks by getting insanely lucky with sacred bark and thorns potions off of entropics. I had I think 40 thorns and the thing just annihilated itself while I was intangible.
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FishmanPut your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain.Registered Userregular
Ooooooh, first ascension win.
With the Defect again, running an orb deck. Bottled Lightning on Electrodynamics, some Defrags and Biased Cognitions, and a bunch of orb-generating cards.
Barely squeaked through with a bare handful of HP, but Torii got me over the line against the multi attack. Luck broke my way a couple times also, with being able to put Madness on Meteor Strike and managing to pull Creative AI from White Noise early, so yeah, it was close. Went through the last 3 rounds very aware of the fact I only had single-digit HP.
I know this is still, like, baby's first ascension compared to some, but it's nice to start the climb.
Okay, so i'm being silly, but A1 is actually easier than a0. The addition of extra elites changes how the entire map spawns, which makes it much easier to route past fights if you need... and in act 2 and 3, Elite fights are not THAT much harder than hallway fights. (Okay, so this is a bit facetious, but seriously triple jaw worm or triple cultists are huge piles of arse for the reward you get out of them. if you're gonna go to that level of effort just fight a frigging elite)
Anyway, Congrats @Fishman Now! Grow! Eat the spire! rise to the heights of A20 heart kills! (Also you do not need to kill the heart to progress in asc levels)
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
See, now I feel weird being the only one to post for 3 days!
But hell.
This was an insane run. Never before have I taken the RED KEY on the final campfire -- full health, all cards upgraded.
Sadly the order of card draw on the final boss just screwed me because I couldn't take the heavy hits of the final boss properly. If I could've gotten things to line up better I think I would've been fine. But.. I could tell I was running low on block cards, and just overpowering things with raw damage.
I mean, i think you're mad for taking Prismatic Lense, but okay.
looking at your A11 fail, the thing that jumps out to me is you've got very little to no card draw, with a very big deck. You have, what, Pommel strike? True Grit+ for thinning and Second Wind+ for thinning are nice. You're also pulled in some awkard directions - you've got a clear Exhaustion and Strength theme going, but you dont have any Feel No Pains to capitlaize on your exhaustion, and you've got no recursion or ways to make multiple Reapers. Evolve+ is a nice touch though, so maybe that would have been card draw enough with a couple less cards?
Mark of Pain is unfourantely really bad. it *sounds* good, but it's single time it's good is when you have Bottled Tornado on Evolve+. It'd be dramatically better if it put the wounds into your discard pile - but a 36 card deck with 4 of those cards being dead draws (unless you get Evolve+ into play) is pretty rough.
Anger+ is a good pickup though - Works well with your True Grits and your rage. You probably should have pruned way more strikes though, at this point they're also dedad cards - if you'd removed a card at every store, you coulda got rid of every single strike and been a lot stronger.
(I hope all this advice helps!)
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Also i just have been posting because i've been playing Other *Gasp* card game rougelikes. I regret to inform everyone that while Rougebook is very pretty, it's not worth your time - dont belive it's lies on being a 1.0 game, because it's not. It's had multiple crashes, it's got UX issues out the wazoo, balance problems out the extra wazoo, and the worst crime of them all: Meta progression. *hisses*
I really hope they can fix it up, because it's got a bunch of really good, interesting ideas - they're just half baked and not developed enoguh.
I have however been playing a different one - Vault of the Void, and boy oh boy i'm falling in love with that. There's a G&T thread on it i made, if people are interested i guess i could also make a SE++ thread?
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Yeah Roguebook is super buggy, I've hit a bug that required me to delete all of my meta progression multiple times. I enjoyed the time I had with it though, although I'll agree that it doesn't feel quite balanced sometimes. The exploration element of it gave it some more Rogue flavor that I feel like a lot of the roguelike genre misses out on.
Yeah Roguebook is super buggy, I've hit a bug that required me to delete all of my meta progression multiple times. I enjoyed the time I had with it though, although I'll agree that it doesn't feel quite balanced sometimes. The exploration element of it gave it some more Rogue flavor that I feel like a lot of the roguelike genre misses out on.
The problem is that in practice it's exploration is completely broken. Once you get past the initial revealed stuff (Which you can basically always hit), you're left spamming stuff randomly with no indication of where anything might be, you're just spamming things randomly... Which you have to do, because Faerie Wells are bonkers as are alchemists and gem pillars. When the variance in a game in a game is between having 3 energy every turn and 5 energy every turn depending on how lucky you got with exploring, you've got a problem.
I may have played the game bit too much and be really grumpy at the squandered potential. I actually really like the idea of the exploration mechanic, it's just it's ramifications suck and it's half baked.
I can see two ways to improve it: One, you start with the entire map revealed, but inaccessible, and have to paint paths to connect stuff up. This would put a big emphasis on foreplaning and routing. The other would be to keep the current style of map, but have question markers indicating where things are (I'd actually favor having markers that indicate there's X within Y radius). This would keep a lot more of the discovery potential, which is fun.
There's multiple other issues i have with it (META PROGRESSION) and things, and it's just grrgh because there's so much good in there if it gets developed...
Anyway, Check out Vault of the Void people, it's real good so far.
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
I mean, yeah, sometimes you explore and you don't find anything good, that's how the cards fall. I don't really see that any different than like, drawing a bad hand or getting an unlucky random event or (to bring it back to more traditional roguelikes) drinking a weird potion that turns your arm into a gross oozing sore. It absolutely sucks, but it's a run based game and maybe you'll have better luck next time, it's not like a long term setback that makes the game unplayable (unless you get the bug that I've got, I guess).
But I also know that this is a difference in how we play these games, because you want a finely tuned machine and I want a cool story about something that happened to my little friends in the computer.
That's my biggest gripe with Roguebook, really. Is that if you don't find two Faeria wells in chapter 1, you may as well just restart the run without even attempting the boss. Not because the chapter 1 boss will be too hard, but because the chapter 3 boss will be impossible. A run can be determined a failure very early but not actually be lost until much later, like those old King's Quest games where if you forgot to get the cat's collar in the fourth zone, you can't beat the game.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Yeah I also beat the chapter three boss on my third or fourth run of the game and did not find it to be particularly difficult overall. I think I'd found maybe one Faeria well in that playthrough? I've never found two or more.
Which might be something to be said for how swingy the card balance can be, which I do think is a different conversation from the exploration one, as that's a place where I feel the game should be more "fair."
Oh, yeah, there are some extenuating circumstances for sure where Faeria wells don't really matter. Like I think my best run I made Seifer the king of all shit, which gave him permanent 25 rage but every card used did 3 damage to him. Which was entirely irrelevant by the end because I had like 5 ways to heal him.
@Straightzi have you looked into Wildermyth? Given your description there it sounds like it would be extremely your jam.
And yeah, I want a finely tuned machine, but I also want the cool stories. Part of why I'm still playing StS so many hours later is it hit both. Roguebook is frustrating me because I can see a ton of potential, and I was enjoying it until I dug deeper - I got up to e9 (out of 15 epilogue levels).
I was actually thinking of your argument on Transformative difficulty with those - there's some super cool modifiers in the epilogue, and the fact that if you want the toughest experience you can't take those and instead can only take generic penalties sucks. I really like what the swapping brushes and ink sources does to the game.
I think the other argument I could make off that in general, a card game presents the implication that the game is trying to be finely tuned as opposed to the chaos of other rougelikes. Certainly their shouting about Did You Know Richard Garfield Was Involved!?! presents the implication that they'd like to be taken as a game that's finely tuned.
Anyway! Gahrump at Roguebook. gahruuuump! I shall sit on my card throne and be grumpy! And then go back to playing Vault and having my brain melt
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Oh I'm very into Wildermyth, yeah. I'm in my fifth campaign of it right now.
I do think Roguebook was positioning itself as a real tactically complex sort of thing, very much trying to be an heir to StS and with the Richard Garfield stamp on it and all that. And like, I am interested in how Garfield views things like Slay the Spire and where he might have ideas on how to iterate on them, even if I'm not a big fan of M:tG myself. But it also turned out to not be that, really, or at least not yet. I like it as a fun exploration-y thing, as I've mentioned, I think the way that the epilogue changes the difficulty there is interesting and appropriate for what it is, but I also get that it's not entirely what was promised. And it feels like the devs are still working on fine tuning it, so it might change into more of a precise machine, at which point I wonder if some of the more exploratory elements might feel less appropriate even to me.
I do think Roguebook was positioning itself as a real tactically complex sort of thing, very much trying to be an heir to StS and with the Richard Garfield stamp on it and all that. And like, I am interested in how Garfield views things like Slay the Spire and where he might have ideas on how to iterate on them, even if I'm not a big fan of M:tG myself. But it also turned out to not be that, really, or at least not yet. I like it as a fun exploration-y thing, as I've mentioned, I think the way that the epilogue changes the difficulty there is interesting and appropriate for what it is, but I also get that it's not entirely what was promised. And it feels like the devs are still working on fine tuning it, so it might change into more of a precise machine, at which point I wonder if some of the more exploratory elements might feel less appropriate even to me.
Like a lot of things that are trying to be heir to StS, i think they've missed the forest for the trees.
StS is not without issues, esp around onboarding new players (one frustration i actually have with all my play time in the gmae is it makes me a terrible person to explain onboarding the game, because i'm too used to all the little tricks and the ilk). I think there's a real argument that the approach to Strikes and Defends while good for complexity gating is overall bad for the game. Communication around how the Time Eater and Awoken One work in practice is terrible and makes for a lot of feel bad moments for players where they dont understand why they lost.
But there's so much that's really tight. Like Meta Progression - StS uses a very, very limited set of meta progression which is mostly just a complexity gate - play characters, get more cards and relics in the pool. Any power gains are balanced out by diluting the pool. It's a very clever, smart approach. Rougebook meanwhile has this crazy tree that gives you so much raw power and it's just ??? - how do you even balance the game when a player who's ground out stuff can have their characters starting with +50% max hp!?
Or how card rarities are used in StS vs this game. Or the general way that Rougebook hides or otherwise obfuscates information (Some of which is just down to crappy UX, which is real bad). I.e you can see the act 3 boss at all times once you unlock the talent for it. Okay, cool. Why can you never see the act 2 or act 1 bosses? they're still a big deal! If you've got a mechanic that involves combining decks, why are the character's mechanics mostly parasitic/self reinforcing? (Seifer is the obvious example with Rage here)
There's so much cool stuff in it, and i wish they'd developed or pushed it further rather than launching it like this. I think they can fix some stuff with tuning, but i think other stuff like the epilogue, exploration and meta-progression mechanics are in their current state, fundamentally broken.
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Yeah, as someone who started playing StS while it was in pretty early access and saw the changes in balance being made (especially doing beta branch for the new characters).
Roguebook kind of feels like that.
Which is to say, it still feels pretty good! But I don't think it feels hundreds of hours good. I've played a bunch of these games at this point (my favorite other one is probably Griftlands, but Nowhere Prophet and Deep Sky Derelicts are both pretty good too), and it's just a matter of whether they're a 20 hour game or a 500 at this point. I'm generally still pretty happy with a 20 hour game too though, I think I've only got one or two I'm truly disappointed in.
Griftlands is fun but the second character you unlock is pretty bad until you unlock his first 3 or 4 tiers of cards. It's kind of unfortunate, that.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Griftlands is very good but it's more story-based/roleplaying and runs are a bit longer. Which puts it in a weird place for me where I'll finish a run and not want to play that character again for a while because it feels weird replaying and just changing the story elements arbitrarily, rather than making the best decision for the character at the moment. But, in turn, the stories are quite fun and manage to hold up to the sort of shifting that you do with multiple playthroughs pretty nicely.
Nowhere Prophet is interesting, it's a bit more M:tG with like, summoning units and then they do their attacks and stuff, rather than everything being based on the cards you play. It's got a bit of a Roguebook thing too, where you have a caravan deck and a leader deck that are independent of one another, so they combine in different ways. My major complaint with it was that it's quite difficult (which is overall fine or even expected) and has several of its unlocks of new caravans tied to specific endings/routes, which you're not really guaranteed to get. I think they did some updates to make some of that a bit easier, but it was after I'd grown kind of sick of the same two caravans over and over so I didn't get into it too much.
Pandora's is probably one of the fastest ways to get incredibly strong or blow up a run. It's still worth it on average, I'd guess. Especially if you have far better cards to play than strikes or defends, and you've already removed a few of them already (fewer possible bricks out of the transforms).
Pandora's works best when you've got an Egg as well, as well your transforms will be upgraded. It's a pretty safe pick if you've already taken a few good defensive cards, as that tends to make it a net boost in power
One big thing about it is that when it randomizes your cards it does it with no care about rarity. Which is why it tends to hit multiple rares, a notable good thing tm
I just started playing this the other day and I am really enjoying it. So far I have finished A4 with the ironclad. Guess I am going to try the rest of the characters out now. Any tips for a new player would be appreciated.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Whelp. Stumbled into a stupid build, decided to just let the stupid fly when I was fairly sure I could make it.
Oh yeah. I think I'm fine.
... Wait, WTF, I had Calipers?!
Man, Intangible+ is just so broken, especially with retain.
Some general stuff. These are all rules of thumb, and there are places where you'll learn to break em.
You dont have to take every card offered.
It's better to approach drafting with a "What gets me through the next floor" mindset than "This will be good in twenty floors!" approach.
It's better to spend potions than die. It's fine to discard potions for better potions.
Debuffs and buffs stack how long they last in turns. This can have some funky effects - 1 Poison does 1 damage. 2 Poison does 3 damage across 2 turns. 3 Poison does 6 damage across 3 turns. THis is very relevant for having double Regen pots - 10 Regen heals you for 10+9...+1 across ten turns, or 55 hp - vs only getting 15 hp for a single regen potion.
Pick cards that are strong now, not cards that will be good if you meet XYZ conditions.
It's hard for removing strikes to be bad, outside of very early game for the Watcher.
Removal Priority is Generally Curses -> Useless cards (Think accuracy in a deck with no shivs. This can happen via transform events) -> Strikes -> Defends -> Cards that have done their job (Lesson Learned when you've upgraded your entire deck, Perfected strike after Act 1 when you got a better card like Immolate or something)
Routing priority in order of what makes you strongest is generally Elites -> Campfire (Upgrading) -> Shop/Event -> Campfire (Resting) -> Normal Fights. Learning how to route the game is a big part of getting good at it, because Routing is very flexible - There's zero point routing into an elite if you know it'll kill you. Relics also have huge effect on your routing - Resting with a Regal Pillow and a Dream Catcher is a lot better than just resting. Shovel and Giryia add two new things to do at campfires.
You can never fight the same elite twice in a row, except for events. So when you first enter an elite fight in act 1: It will be either Goblin Nob, Lavagulin or Tri Sentries. Say it's Nob. Your next elite fight will be Lavagulin or Tri Sentries. If that one's then Lavagulin, your next elite fight will be Goblin Nob or Tri Sentries. So on, So forth.
For starting boons from the whale:
Rare Relic, Gold, Common Relic, Random Rare, Choose a card are all very good. Gold for a curse is pretty bad though. Max HP is better than you think, but un exciting. 1 hp enemies is great if you can snipe an elite, and preferably two elites with it. Getting to snipe the super elite and another elite is the sort of early game setup that really empowers you.
Transforming cards and colorless cards are pretty bunk - they're too volatile.
Swapping your starting relic for a boss relic is good if you need immediate power and understand the downsides. It's most reliable on Watcher (Who benefits a lot from just having 4 energy, or Snecko), and the worst idea on Silent. Defect and Ironclad it's mostly a "Do you need to go big or go home" to get through act 1 pick. It's secretly amazing when it gives you Pandora's box, and the worst when it gives you Tiny House.
I think that's about everything i cna think of right now
Weak and Vulnerable do a lot, and both Ironclad and Silent have relics that make these even stronger.
Vuln, for instance - 2 points of damage is worth 3 with Vuln. With the Paper Phrog relic, it's worth 4. Vuln also makes strength effectively multiplactive, so you know!
Weak meanwhile can shave a lot of damage off.
Having these applied to you meanwhile can really fuck you up, so Clockwork Souvenir and Orange Pellets are really, really strong shop relics. Also! A lot of the downsides of various powers, or stuff like Flex/Flex Potion's strength drain are actually debuffs. So it's possible to do stuff like Flex, trigger Orange Pellets, and cleanse the Strength Down from Flex... letting you keep the strength permanently. Fasting's energy drain, Wraith Form's dex drain, Biased Cog's focus drain are all debuffs you can clean off this way, spiking the power of these cards incredibly.
You can use this against stuff like Time Eater and Awoken One by giving them a temporary strength debuff before their cleanse triggers, which will cause them to loose strength permanently (Since they generally have postive strength..., you remove strength from them, and then they wipe out the +strength debuff).
Dont do this on the Heart though, because you'll end up giving it permanent strength and well... permanent strength and x15 attack is Bad okay?
Thank you very much for all the tips! I did 5 or 6 defect runs last night and could barely make it past act 1. I had a super good shiv deck except I never picked up envenom or accuracy so I couldn't kill the act 2 boss fast enough. It seems like I just can't get a decent deck going with defect for some reason. And this is just A0.
Thank you very much for all the tips! I did 5 or 6 defect runs last night and could barely make it past act 1. I had a super good shiv deck except I never picked up envenom or accuracy so I couldn't kill the act 2 boss fast enough. It seems like I just can't get a decent deck going with defect for some reason. And this is just A0.
So let's talk Defect!
Defect is incredibly powerful once he gets rolling , but he's also the class most dependant on some the games core identity. Which is how do you scale?
What do I mean by that?
In the big games of this style - MtG, Hearthstone etc you naturally scale to within a fight because of playing lands/getting energy. You can do a lot more in turn ten then you can in turn 1.
This is not the case in slay the spire - unless you take steps, your output in turn 10 is the same as it was turn 1.
Generally speaking, powers are the way you scale and defect is the king of powers. Creative Ai, biased cog and echo form are all insane, just got starters.
You also have stuff like Focus and frost orbs, allowing you to generate massive amounts of block for free, or do crazy damage via lighting and dark orbs.
Defect can easily be invincible once he's setup, so the trick is getting there. This is why one of my favorite combos is Snecko Eye + echo form/creative Ai - card draw and cost randomization gets you setup early and strong
Some early game cards to look out for are stuff like Darkness(ideally +), Doom and Gloom, ball lightning or Hyperbeam.
Late game you're often looking to stick together things like inserter/capacitor and consume, loop with focus and frost orbs, etc.
I'll stream a defect run out two later and post the vod, with me explaining I'm doing and why as I go
One thing that took me a while to adjust to with defect (and to a lesser extent the other characters) is taking your big dick 3 energy scaling cards too early in the game can end your run, since spending all your energy on scaling in a 3 turn fight in act 1 can get you killed, and those cards will often act a curse until you can play them properly.
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Still lost, because S&S had also only left me with 30hp after clearing them. But man, for a moment there I still had hope. Came closer than I thought I would, though.
oops, I did it again
With the Defect again, running an orb deck. Bottled Lightning on Electrodynamics, some Defrags and Biased Cognitions, and a bunch of orb-generating cards.
Barely squeaked through with a bare handful of HP, but Torii got me over the line against the multi attack. Luck broke my way a couple times also, with being able to put Madness on Meteor Strike and managing to pull Creative AI from White Noise early, so yeah, it was close. Went through the last 3 rounds very aware of the fact I only had single-digit HP.
I know this is still, like, baby's first ascension compared to some, but it's nice to start the climb.
Okay, so i'm being silly, but A1 is actually easier than a0. The addition of extra elites changes how the entire map spawns, which makes it much easier to route past fights if you need... and in act 2 and 3, Elite fights are not THAT much harder than hallway fights. (Okay, so this is a bit facetious, but seriously triple jaw worm or triple cultists are huge piles of arse for the reward you get out of them. if you're gonna go to that level of effort just fight a frigging elite)
Anyway, Congrats @Fishman Now! Grow! Eat the spire! rise to the heights of A20 heart kills! (Also you do not need to kill the heart to progress in asc levels)
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(seriously.... damn. Just so many X+2 shenanigans. And a couple faeries in bottles to help me out.)
Fission is easily my favorite Defect card now. I'll risk not properly resting at campfires just to get that upgraded.
I also got the Highlander achievement, first time I've ever gotten that!
Man was I running from elites though.
But hell.
This was an insane run. Never before have I taken the RED KEY on the final campfire -- full health, all cards upgraded.
Sadly the order of card draw on the final boss just screwed me because I couldn't take the heavy hits of the final boss properly. If I could've gotten things to line up better I think I would've been fine. But.. I could tell I was running low on block cards, and just overpowering things with raw damage.
looking at your A11 fail, the thing that jumps out to me is you've got very little to no card draw, with a very big deck. You have, what, Pommel strike? True Grit+ for thinning and Second Wind+ for thinning are nice. You're also pulled in some awkard directions - you've got a clear Exhaustion and Strength theme going, but you dont have any Feel No Pains to capitlaize on your exhaustion, and you've got no recursion or ways to make multiple Reapers. Evolve+ is a nice touch though, so maybe that would have been card draw enough with a couple less cards?
Mark of Pain is unfourantely really bad. it *sounds* good, but it's single time it's good is when you have Bottled Tornado on Evolve+. It'd be dramatically better if it put the wounds into your discard pile - but a 36 card deck with 4 of those cards being dead draws (unless you get Evolve+ into play) is pretty rough.
Anger+ is a good pickup though - Works well with your True Grits and your rage. You probably should have pruned way more strikes though, at this point they're also dedad cards - if you'd removed a card at every store, you coulda got rid of every single strike and been a lot stronger.
(I hope all this advice helps!)
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Also i just have been posting because i've been playing Other *Gasp* card game rougelikes. I regret to inform everyone that while Rougebook is very pretty, it's not worth your time - dont belive it's lies on being a 1.0 game, because it's not. It's had multiple crashes, it's got UX issues out the wazoo, balance problems out the extra wazoo, and the worst crime of them all: Meta progression. *hisses*
I really hope they can fix it up, because it's got a bunch of really good, interesting ideas - they're just half baked and not developed enoguh.
I have however been playing a different one - Vault of the Void, and boy oh boy i'm falling in love with that. There's a G&T thread on it i made, if people are interested i guess i could also make a SE++ thread?
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
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Switch: 0293 6817 9891
The problem is that in practice it's exploration is completely broken. Once you get past the initial revealed stuff (Which you can basically always hit), you're left spamming stuff randomly with no indication of where anything might be, you're just spamming things randomly... Which you have to do, because Faerie Wells are bonkers as are alchemists and gem pillars. When the variance in a game in a game is between having 3 energy every turn and 5 energy every turn depending on how lucky you got with exploring, you've got a problem.
I may have played the game bit too much and be really grumpy at the squandered potential. I actually really like the idea of the exploration mechanic, it's just it's ramifications suck and it's half baked.
I can see two ways to improve it: One, you start with the entire map revealed, but inaccessible, and have to paint paths to connect stuff up. This would put a big emphasis on foreplaning and routing. The other would be to keep the current style of map, but have question markers indicating where things are (I'd actually favor having markers that indicate there's X within Y radius). This would keep a lot more of the discovery potential, which is fun.
There's multiple other issues i have with it (META PROGRESSION) and things, and it's just grrgh because there's so much good in there if it gets developed...
Anyway, Check out Vault of the Void people, it's real good so far.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
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Switch: 0293 6817 9891
But I also know that this is a difference in how we play these games, because you want a finely tuned machine and I want a cool story about something that happened to my little friends in the computer.
Which might be something to be said for how swingy the card balance can be, which I do think is a different conversation from the exploration one, as that's a place where I feel the game should be more "fair."
And yeah, I want a finely tuned machine, but I also want the cool stories. Part of why I'm still playing StS so many hours later is it hit both. Roguebook is frustrating me because I can see a ton of potential, and I was enjoying it until I dug deeper - I got up to e9 (out of 15 epilogue levels).
I was actually thinking of your argument on Transformative difficulty with those - there's some super cool modifiers in the epilogue, and the fact that if you want the toughest experience you can't take those and instead can only take generic penalties sucks. I really like what the swapping brushes and ink sources does to the game.
I think the other argument I could make off that in general, a card game presents the implication that the game is trying to be finely tuned as opposed to the chaos of other rougelikes. Certainly their shouting about Did You Know Richard Garfield Was Involved!?! presents the implication that they'd like to be taken as a game that's finely tuned.
Anyway! Gahrump at Roguebook. gahruuuump! I shall sit on my card throne and be grumpy! And then go back to playing Vault and having my brain melt
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
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I do think Roguebook was positioning itself as a real tactically complex sort of thing, very much trying to be an heir to StS and with the Richard Garfield stamp on it and all that. And like, I am interested in how Garfield views things like Slay the Spire and where he might have ideas on how to iterate on them, even if I'm not a big fan of M:tG myself. But it also turned out to not be that, really, or at least not yet. I like it as a fun exploration-y thing, as I've mentioned, I think the way that the epilogue changes the difficulty there is interesting and appropriate for what it is, but I also get that it's not entirely what was promised. And it feels like the devs are still working on fine tuning it, so it might change into more of a precise machine, at which point I wonder if some of the more exploratory elements might feel less appropriate even to me.
Oh good! I'm really glad to hear that - Wildermyth deserves so much love.
Like a lot of things that are trying to be heir to StS, i think they've missed the forest for the trees.
StS is not without issues, esp around onboarding new players (one frustration i actually have with all my play time in the gmae is it makes me a terrible person to explain onboarding the game, because i'm too used to all the little tricks and the ilk). I think there's a real argument that the approach to Strikes and Defends while good for complexity gating is overall bad for the game. Communication around how the Time Eater and Awoken One work in practice is terrible and makes for a lot of feel bad moments for players where they dont understand why they lost.
But there's so much that's really tight. Like Meta Progression - StS uses a very, very limited set of meta progression which is mostly just a complexity gate - play characters, get more cards and relics in the pool. Any power gains are balanced out by diluting the pool. It's a very clever, smart approach. Rougebook meanwhile has this crazy tree that gives you so much raw power and it's just ??? - how do you even balance the game when a player who's ground out stuff can have their characters starting with +50% max hp!?
Or how card rarities are used in StS vs this game. Or the general way that Rougebook hides or otherwise obfuscates information (Some of which is just down to crappy UX, which is real bad). I.e you can see the act 3 boss at all times once you unlock the talent for it. Okay, cool. Why can you never see the act 2 or act 1 bosses? they're still a big deal! If you've got a mechanic that involves combining decks, why are the character's mechanics mostly parasitic/self reinforcing? (Seifer is the obvious example with Rage here)
There's so much cool stuff in it, and i wish they'd developed or pushed it further rather than launching it like this. I think they can fix some stuff with tuning, but i think other stuff like the epilogue, exploration and meta-progression mechanics are in their current state, fundamentally broken.
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Roguebook kind of feels like that.
Which is to say, it still feels pretty good! But I don't think it feels hundreds of hours good. I've played a bunch of these games at this point (my favorite other one is probably Griftlands, but Nowhere Prophet and Deep Sky Derelicts are both pretty good too), and it's just a matter of whether they're a 20 hour game or a 500 at this point. I'm generally still pretty happy with a 20 hour game too though, I think I've only got one or two I'm truly disappointed in.
Nowhere Prophets looks cool! I've wishlisted that for now.
I'd def be a lot less hard on Roguebook if it was still in early access. The fact it's a released game is part of what irriates me so much. Ah well!
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Nowhere Prophet is interesting, it's a bit more M:tG with like, summoning units and then they do their attacks and stuff, rather than everything being based on the cards you play. It's got a bit of a Roguebook thing too, where you have a caravan deck and a leader deck that are independent of one another, so they combine in different ways. My major complaint with it was that it's quite difficult (which is overall fine or even expected) and has several of its unlocks of new caravans tied to specific endings/routes, which you're not really guaranteed to get. I think they did some updates to make some of that a bit easier, but it was after I'd grown kind of sick of the same two caravans over and over so I didn't get into it too much.
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LET THE REAPING BEGIN
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That story is "I took a total of 12 damage in Act 3".
13
14
15
I died after taking an awful Pandora's box.
yeah that one is an absolute crapshoot, especially if you have to scrounge for defensive cards after removing your basic Defends
But it is so goddamned tempting!
One big thing about it is that when it randomizes your cards it does it with no care about rarity. Which is why it tends to hit multiple rares, a notable good thing tm
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Oh yeah. I think I'm fine.
... Wait, WTF, I had Calipers?!
Man, Intangible+ is just so broken, especially with retain.
Some general stuff. These are all rules of thumb, and there are places where you'll learn to break em.
You dont have to take every card offered.
It's better to approach drafting with a "What gets me through the next floor" mindset than "This will be good in twenty floors!" approach.
It's better to spend potions than die. It's fine to discard potions for better potions.
Debuffs and buffs stack how long they last in turns. This can have some funky effects - 1 Poison does 1 damage. 2 Poison does 3 damage across 2 turns. 3 Poison does 6 damage across 3 turns. THis is very relevant for having double Regen pots - 10 Regen heals you for 10+9...+1 across ten turns, or 55 hp - vs only getting 15 hp for a single regen potion.
Pick cards that are strong now, not cards that will be good if you meet XYZ conditions.
It's hard for removing strikes to be bad, outside of very early game for the Watcher.
Removal Priority is Generally Curses -> Useless cards (Think accuracy in a deck with no shivs. This can happen via transform events) -> Strikes -> Defends -> Cards that have done their job (Lesson Learned when you've upgraded your entire deck, Perfected strike after Act 1 when you got a better card like Immolate or something)
Routing priority in order of what makes you strongest is generally Elites -> Campfire (Upgrading) -> Shop/Event -> Campfire (Resting) -> Normal Fights. Learning how to route the game is a big part of getting good at it, because Routing is very flexible - There's zero point routing into an elite if you know it'll kill you. Relics also have huge effect on your routing - Resting with a Regal Pillow and a Dream Catcher is a lot better than just resting. Shovel and Giryia add two new things to do at campfires.
You can never fight the same elite twice in a row, except for events. So when you first enter an elite fight in act 1: It will be either Goblin Nob, Lavagulin or Tri Sentries. Say it's Nob. Your next elite fight will be Lavagulin or Tri Sentries. If that one's then Lavagulin, your next elite fight will be Goblin Nob or Tri Sentries. So on, So forth.
For starting boons from the whale:
Rare Relic, Gold, Common Relic, Random Rare, Choose a card are all very good. Gold for a curse is pretty bad though. Max HP is better than you think, but un exciting. 1 hp enemies is great if you can snipe an elite, and preferably two elites with it. Getting to snipe the super elite and another elite is the sort of early game setup that really empowers you.
Transforming cards and colorless cards are pretty bunk - they're too volatile.
Swapping your starting relic for a boss relic is good if you need immediate power and understand the downsides. It's most reliable on Watcher (Who benefits a lot from just having 4 energy, or Snecko), and the worst idea on Silent. Defect and Ironclad it's mostly a "Do you need to go big or go home" to get through act 1 pick. It's secretly amazing when it gives you Pandora's box, and the worst when it gives you Tiny House.
I think that's about everything i cna think of right now
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Weak and Vulnerable do a lot, and both Ironclad and Silent have relics that make these even stronger.
Vuln, for instance - 2 points of damage is worth 3 with Vuln. With the Paper Phrog relic, it's worth 4. Vuln also makes strength effectively multiplactive, so you know!
Weak meanwhile can shave a lot of damage off.
Having these applied to you meanwhile can really fuck you up, so Clockwork Souvenir and Orange Pellets are really, really strong shop relics. Also! A lot of the downsides of various powers, or stuff like Flex/Flex Potion's strength drain are actually debuffs. So it's possible to do stuff like Flex, trigger Orange Pellets, and cleanse the Strength Down from Flex... letting you keep the strength permanently. Fasting's energy drain, Wraith Form's dex drain, Biased Cog's focus drain are all debuffs you can clean off this way, spiking the power of these cards incredibly.
You can use this against stuff like Time Eater and Awoken One by giving them a temporary strength debuff before their cleanse triggers, which will cause them to loose strength permanently (Since they generally have postive strength..., you remove strength from them, and then they wipe out the +strength debuff).
Dont do this on the Heart though, because you'll end up giving it permanent strength and well... permanent strength and x15 attack is Bad okay?
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So let's talk Defect!
Defect is incredibly powerful once he gets rolling , but he's also the class most dependant on some the games core identity. Which is how do you scale?
What do I mean by that?
In the big games of this style - MtG, Hearthstone etc you naturally scale to within a fight because of playing lands/getting energy. You can do a lot more in turn ten then you can in turn 1.
This is not the case in slay the spire - unless you take steps, your output in turn 10 is the same as it was turn 1.
Generally speaking, powers are the way you scale and defect is the king of powers. Creative Ai, biased cog and echo form are all insane, just got starters.
You also have stuff like Focus and frost orbs, allowing you to generate massive amounts of block for free, or do crazy damage via lighting and dark orbs.
Defect can easily be invincible once he's setup, so the trick is getting there. This is why one of my favorite combos is Snecko Eye + echo form/creative Ai - card draw and cost randomization gets you setup early and strong
Some early game cards to look out for are stuff like Darkness(ideally +), Doom and Gloom, ball lightning or Hyperbeam.
Late game you're often looking to stick together things like inserter/capacitor and consume, loop with focus and frost orbs, etc.
I'll stream a defect run out two later and post the vod, with me explaining I'm doing and why as I go
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