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Australian & NZ Politics: Double Dipping in Luxonry

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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    As compared to what though..

    In Australia GST doesn't apply on non-processed food, which, although this hits food that is prepared, it also hits processed foods too.
    I'd like to see a sugar tax here, so that businesses are incentivised to sell less sugar, so I'm not sure about just flat removing our GST from food entirely.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    As compared to what though..

    In Australia GST doesn't apply on non-processed food, which, although this hits food that is prepared, it also hits processed foods too.
    I'd like to see a sugar tax here, so that businesses are incentivised to sell less sugar, so I'm not sure about just flat removing our GST from food entirely.

    There's some plan by the current government to implement a GST free for some food. Fruit and Veg, I think?

    We need to have a hard talk about food in this country, not just the spiralling costs, by also the way so much is exported while people go hungry (I have no idea how you fix that, but it's still obscene). To say nothing of the climate change issue. Given the way farmers are already screaming body murder, I have very little faith in any of this getting fixed.

    The other reason I don't see them going for it is this shit:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511461/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-unable-to-assure-promised-budget-surplus-amid-tax-cuts

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/03/09/govt-axes-kids-youth-public-transport-discounts-funding/

    Yet they're still forging ahead with the amoral landlord tax cut, while claiming it'll magically cut rents somehow. .
    I don't think they have any actual interest in fixing the cost of living issues. Not really, not week the long term work it would take, and the breaking of duopolys, etc

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 12
    Y'know, a little flippant, sorry.

    Fencingsax on
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    FishmanFishman Put your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain. Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    As compared to what though..

    In Australia GST doesn't apply on non-processed food, which, although this hits food that is prepared, it also hits processed foods too.
    I'd like to see a sugar tax here, so that businesses are incentivised to sell less sugar, so I'm not sure about just flat removing our GST from food entirely.

    There's some plan by the current government to implement a GST free for some food. Fruit and Veg, I think?

    We need to have a hard talk about food in this country, not just the spiralling costs, by also the way so much is exported while people go hungry (I have no idea how you fix that, but it's still obscene). To say nothing of the climate change issue. Given the way farmers are already screaming body murder, I have very little faith in any of this getting fixed.

    The other reason I don't see them going for it is this shit:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511461/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-unable-to-assure-promised-budget-surplus-amid-tax-cuts

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/03/09/govt-axes-kids-youth-public-transport-discounts-funding/

    Yet they're still forging ahead with the amoral landlord tax cut, while claiming it'll magically cut rents somehow. .
    I don't think they have any actual interest in fixing the cost of living issues. Not really, not week the long term work it would take, and the breaking of duopolys, etc

    The GST on Fruit and Veg was a Labour campaign promise, which means it's not coming now.
    Also, it was a bit shit, for a variety of reasons.


    The problem with GST is that it does place greater burden on the people with the least discretionary spending (those on the lowest rung of the socio-economic ladder), as a larger proportion of their income goes to taxation.

    The good thing about GST is it's also one of the few taxes the wealthy can't avoid. Like, it turns out that the very wealthy? They basically can basically avoid income, use trusts, hire people to exploit tax loopholes, move money offshore, etc. Consumption tax is one of the few ways we have to make them pay anything. Especially in NZ, where we don't tax capital gains or property, really. With GST at least they pay more, because they spend more.

    So dropping a class of something from GST is a bit of a velvet trap. It might (the returns are debatable) ease financial burden on the poorest communities. But it also will probably result in less taxation being collected from the rich - meaning what you're really doing is shifting a greater burden onto the middle class.


    Like, I get the inclination to remove GST of 'essentials'. In an ideal world, we'd be able to efficiently tax 'luxuries'. So a weekly shop is (theoretically) more affordable... but what about that $5k bottle of Chateau le Fitte 1972 - it should probably be taxed, right? Caviar - no one's putting that in their $80 weekly shopping trolley next to the no-brand rice and discount meat that's about to expire.

    But it turns out that doing this is complex. And it's a slippery slope; some have advocated removing GST from sunscreen, or medical supplies. But one of the great benefits of GST in NZ is it's universality. There's no need for costly administrative overhead working out tax compliance or what is or isn't GST applicable. It's one of the cleanest, simplest - and therefore most efficient - tax systems in the world. Tampering with it comes at a cost - and it's really worth appreciating what that cost is.

    Remember, tax isn't bad; it's how we pay for services. If the goal is 'ease the financial burden on the poorest members of society', then maybe there's more efficient levers at government's disposal then muddying what is actually moderately efficient tax and introducing a layer of complexity.

    Especially when it's not clear if the benefits will actually be passed on to consumers - or whether it's just a way for certain duopolistic industries to channel more profit overseas.


    That's not to say there's not room for tax reform in NZ. A Land Tax would be a brilliant way to you know, tax the wealthy. You can't deny or dispute ownership. You can't move it overseas. By and large, we know exactly how much of it there is and we have a good idea of the value of it.

    Overall, my opinion on GST is 'is the cost of tampering with it outweighed by the benefit you gain?' and honestly, there has been very little evidence I've seen to suggest that fucking about would actually make a real difference to people who need it, rather than inventing yet another way to channel money from the government into the hands of rich assholes who don't need it.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Oh, it was labor? Man i got my parties WAY confused. Thanks for the correction! I'm not sure how i got that tangled up but i sureeee did.

    FWIW I actually generally agree with you here - it *sounds* nice as a way, but land reform, capital gains (I don't know enough here), just actually fucking taxing companies (Screw you sanatarium) and going after white collar crime & tax evasion (IRD's return on doing this is apparently huge)

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    FishmanFishman Put your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain. Registered User regular
    The issue is that as households, GST is a larger portion of your income for those in poverty, but as a society, GST take mostly comes from the wealthy. Like the food GST take by the government of those on welfare is probably a rounding error compared to how much is earned from annual sales of utes in this country. Even on food, most of the GST revenue will be from the rich, not the poor - because everyone pays it, and the wealthy spend so much more.

    The better way of achieving this goal is not removing GST from food, but actually implementing a UBI. $10-20 per person per week is an extra coffee or such to the wealthy, but can make a real material difference to the folk in poverty. It would shore up their essentials spend, without really undercutting the much larger tax revenue garnered via leveling GST on the rich.

    Downside is that it may just be inflationary, resulting in status quo (watch as landlords gather it all once again).

    Creating a simple, fair tax system is hard.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I know the accommodation supplement is basically landlord welfare right now, which fuckin' sucks, and goes back to our housing stock being a joke and other problems.

    Shit sucks and is immensly frustrating.

    But hey! Thanks to my grandfather's estate getting paid out, i have my new computer, so i can take my meager weekly savings and put it towards other things now, instead of replacing my failing computer.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Stuff like this is also just mad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl252GkqINg

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511461/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-unable-to-assure-promised-budget-surplus-amid-tax-cuts

    There's no fucking rules or anything to ensure that the landlord tax cut translates to renter decrease. None. Zero. Zilch, but they're going to keep trotting it out. Only good thing is the media at least seems to be waking up and going for hte throat kinda sorta, but where the hell was this enthusaisum back prior to the election?

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I think the media are blaming the government for the current shambles happening in New Zealand since Luxon's double dipping, which they really went for him over, they're not giving him an easy time anymore.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Meanwhile:

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/03/13/renters-very-grateful-for-incoming-landlord-tax-breaks-luxon/

    Fuck the hell off, Luxon. Fuck all the way the hell off.

    You know what i'd be grateful for? If my benefit actually paid more than shit and all so I could afford to take care of my health properly.

    I'm extra angry right now because i just got off the phone to the community mental health team. They've got an appointment for me! Wonderful! It's on the 8th!

    Of May.


    Just for the record, my most recent severe nearly unalive myself mental health break started in fucking Janauary, with my doctor contacting them during late Jan/Early Feb. Five fucking months to get seen in person.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Stuff like this is also just mad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl252GkqINg

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511461/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-unable-to-assure-promised-budget-surplus-amid-tax-cuts

    There's no fucking rules or anything to ensure that the landlord tax cut translates to renter decrease. None. Zero. Zilch, but they're going to keep trotting it out. Only good thing is the media at least seems to be waking up and going for hte throat kinda sorta, but where the hell was this enthusaisum back prior to the election?

    It's like when the USA on occasion suspends the federal tax on gasoline. It rarely does anything because people were already paying X per-gallon with the tax and there's nothing stopping business from continuing to charge the same X per-gallon without the tax because that's just what people will pay. Exact same thing for rent. If people will pay X per-month, then landlords will continue to charge X per-month and just pocket more of the money.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    edited March 13
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Stuff like this is also just mad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl252GkqINg

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511461/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-unable-to-assure-promised-budget-surplus-amid-tax-cuts

    There's no fucking rules or anything to ensure that the landlord tax cut translates to renter decrease. None. Zero. Zilch, but they're going to keep trotting it out. Only good thing is the media at least seems to be waking up and going for hte throat kinda sorta, but where the hell was this enthusaisum back prior to the election?

    It's like when the USA on occasion suspends the federal tax on gasoline. It rarely does anything because people were already paying X per-gallon with the tax and there's nothing stopping business from continuing to charge the same X per-gallon without the tax because that's just what people will pay. Exact same thing for rent. If people will pay X per-month, then landlords will continue to charge X per-month and just pocket more of the money.
    It's worse imo. These days with petrol price scanner apps, if the gas tax is suspended and one chain decides to only keep e.g. half the tax for themselves and drop price, then drivers can be willing to go a little farther down the road to save themselves a few dollars when filling up. So, companies being what they are, there's going to be some price fluctuations as the companies jostle to try and keep as much of the additional money as they can.

    For renters, what are they going to do? Move house instantly to a landlord who has passed on the tax break, and then move back as soon as the tax break is over? Ahahahaha.

    Archangle on
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Pretty much. If I want rent relief, I can...

    Maybe possibly move across half the country to live with my parents again? Requiring me to completely uproot my life, go back to an environment that's worse for my mental health, etc.

    Or play the roulette with landlords here, on-top of needing to find a place that'll take my kittens, etc. No thank you!

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    TefTef Registered User regular
    NZ, and particularly Wellington (and Auckland) has a particularly vicious culture towards tenants, I’ve found

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 14
    It wasn't any better in Australia for the most part.

    I think I got exceptionally lucky in that I have a landlord that I get along extremely well with.

    Aegeri on
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Tef wrote: »
    NZ, and particularly Wellington (and Auckland) has a particularly vicious culture towards tenants, I’ve found

    I'm really lucky in that our landlords are pretty decent and we've had a relationship with them for 11+ years, and there's still plenty of shit i could complain about (and i'm certain the backflat is not meeting the healthy homes standards). The house absolutely needs more fixing and investment than it's going to get any time soon (being an old 1950s or earlier type home that was the landlord's family home growing up). The kitchen got updated while we lived here, but plenty of other stuff is still old/awkard/nowhere near properly insulated. (The floor, especially, very noticable during winter. the whole house has a bit of a tilt too it too).

    The gulf between living in a house as the owner and as a tenant is massive, and severely imbalanced relationship, because for one set of people it's literally their shelter, and for the others it's a source of income.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    While the reporting is kinda crud, the kids are alright:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/students-at-palmerston-north-school-protest-act-leader-david-seymour-spit-at-his-shoes/XJKJGO2WQFAI5CB5I7CQEYEGBU/

    oo4u9cnyc9oc1.jpeg

    Good on them for making it clear how much he's disliked.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/511947/winston-peters-delivers-state-of-the-nation-speech

    Very normal and good when we have co-governance compared to Nazi Germany by the deputy prime Minister.

    The Greens must be breathing a sigh of relief after their own drama earlier this week too, which I'm more than a little pissed about m good reminder that politicans are humans, but also seriously: we need parties like greens more than ever. Please stop pissing in your reputation.

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    plufimplufim Dr Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Tasmania did a democracy, and while the result isn't... good, it is rather funny.

    Liberals were terrified of becoming a minority government next election, so called a very early election (1 year!) and rubbished Jackie Lambie's party as their strategy, up to making a fake website for her party.

    Come election time, lambie gets 3 seats, greens get a bunch. Neither liberals nor Labor can form government outright, and liberals need either greens (lol) or lambie (uh oh).

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    UnluckyUnlucky That's not meant to happen Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Lambie right now:

    gold-homer-homer-simpson.gif

    Unlucky on
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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    As a Tasmanian, I think a lot down here expected the result to be a clusterfuck. Neither party's shown much competency, and the Liberals have trashed their reputation in the cities by burning money on this stupid fucking waterfront stadium (sorry, pet hate) and projects of dubious real benefit to pull more reliable rural voters. Their previous leader Gutwein at least has some charisma and handled Covid fine, even if I disgreed with many of his policies, but the party's been clearly chaotic and barely hilding together since he resigned.

    At least we get some top quality laffs for the year or so it'll take until whatever government takes power collapses in on itself.

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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited March 26
    plufim wrote: »
    Tasmania did a democracy, and while the result isn't... good, it is rather funny.

    Liberals were terrified of becoming a minority government next election, so called a very early election (1 year!) and rubbished Jackie Lambie's party as their strategy, up to making a fake website for her party.

    Come election time, lambie gets 3 seats, greens get a bunch. Neither liberals nor Labor can form government outright, and liberals need either greens (lol) or lambie (uh oh).

    ...
    How is this not good?
    More Greens and Lambie network sounds pretty great to me honestly.

    Oh.
    Looks like the Libs have the biggest slice of seats still.

    discrider on
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    MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    So the house next to us is a council house.

    A week or so ago the occupants have been moved out so the house can be renovated (though other than a yellow vested tradie appearing occasionally, nothing has been done).

    In the mean time a homeless person has moved in. Not ideal, but he seems to be keeping to himself. Not sure what to do to be honest.

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    UnluckyUnlucky That's not meant to happen Registered User regular
    edited March 26
    discrider wrote: »
    plufim wrote: »
    Tasmania did a democracy, and while the result isn't... good, it is rather funny.

    Liberals were terrified of becoming a minority government next election, so called a very early election (1 year!) and rubbished Jackie Lambie's party as their strategy, up to making a fake website for her party.

    Come election time, lambie gets 3 seats, greens get a bunch. Neither liberals nor Labor can form government outright, and liberals need either greens (lol) or lambie (uh oh).

    ...
    How is this not good?
    More Greens and Lambie network sounds pretty great to me honestly.

    Oh.
    Looks like the Libs have the biggest slice of seats still.

    In terms of -Slavoj Žižek sniff- PURE IDEOLOGY, this is a good result.

    In reality though, the Libs win and Tas gets a dysfunctional government again. This does not benefit average people, boo.

    Still, with results like this the Greens could overtake Labor if they're not careful.
    Mortious wrote: »
    So the house next to us is a council house.

    A week or so ago the occupants have been moved out so the house can be renovated (though other than a yellow vested tradie appearing occasionally, nothing has been done).

    In the mean time a homeless person has moved in. Not ideal, but he seems to be keeping to himself. Not sure what to do to be honest.
    I grew up (unknowing) next to a homeless squatter.

    My personal two cents as someone who has been homeless, just leave them be. The gov will kick them out once the tenants come back.

    If you have any issues, then report them but they'll keep to themselves as much as possible if they have any faculties.

    So, sit on it til you see issues that impact you directly is my vote.

    Unlucky on
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    plufimplufim Dr Registered User regular
    The Greens *should* over take Labor at this point.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    So the house next to us is a council house.

    A week or so ago the occupants have been moved out so the house can be renovated (though other than a yellow vested tradie appearing occasionally, nothing has been done).

    In the mean time a homeless person has moved in. Not ideal, but he seems to be keeping to himself. Not sure what to do to be honest.

    Honestly, unless the guy is being a problem? Leave him to it. Peole need shelter.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
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    TefTef Registered User regular
    Lol wtaf

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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited April 16
    I was wondering why the hell this crowd attacked police with this recent stabbing of the priest. Makes sense rhat he’s an anti-vaxer so the crowd was probably full of covid protester idiots

    Prohass on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited April 16
    Australia seems to be having a sudden spate of stabbings and Queensland police are now using it to expand powers to search people with a metal detection wand. The whole thing in Bondi in particular has been non-stop misery and unfortunately was very triggering for me personally. Having interacted with the atrocious mental health system in Australia first hand, I can absolutely see how someone could completely fail to get the help they needed. When I was in some of the worst places of my life in Australia, I found the mental health system there basically had an attitude of "You're a man over 30? Well get fucked then lol" and that's not something I've ever forgotten. We'll have to see what the Bondi attackers past history of interactions with the Queensland police involved too.

    Absolutely terrible.

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    VikingViking Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Australia seems to be having a sudden spate of stabbings and Queensland police are now using it to expand powers to search people with a metal detection wand. The whole thing in Bondi in particular has been non-stop misery and unfortunately was very triggering for me personally. Having interacted with the atrocious mental health system in Australia first hand, I can absolutely see how someone could completely fail to get the help they needed. When I was in some of the worst places of my life in Australia, I found the mental health system there basically had an attitude of "You're a man over 30? Well get fucked then lol" and that's not something I've ever forgotten. We'll have to see what the Bondi attackers past history of interactions with the Queensland police involved too.

    Absolutely terrible.
    I am sorry you had that experience Aegeri,

    re. the stabbing, the media going into a feeding frenzy over it had me sadly expecting a copy cat of some kind.

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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    The recent murder of a woman by her partner who was given bail has just driven me to madness. We spend all this air time raising awareness about domestic violence, all these campaigns in Australia after all these high profile murders, and so much evidence that intimate partner violence is the most likely to result in murder after the victim does something like get their partner arrested or leave them, and we’ve done nothing to change bail to reflect this?

    How the fuck is there not an effort to get new bail laws introduced that mean that if an accused has committed intimate partner violence, particularly if there is a history of it, that bail isn’t set prohibitively high or denied outright?

    Like this is a case where keeping someone in jail while they wait for trial is like the definition of why that process exists, ie a danger to the community, and in particular a danger to the accusing witness.

    It’s just insane. What’s the point of all these awareness campaigns and domestic violence initiatives if something so obvious is ignored

    What’s the point of the bail or remand system at all if you can’t even remand to custody people who are overwhelmingly likely to kill the victim in your case. What do you have to do to NOT get bail?

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    A friend of mine is a VicPol.

    He went to a domestic violence incident, of a repeat offender. Arrested the asshole and took him to the station. Went back, got the statement from the partner. While still there (less than an hour after asshole taken to station), asshole pulls up in a taxi.

    In front of the two police, completely loses his shit at the woman, including threats and aggressive movements. Back to the police station, asshole placed in lock up.

    Next day, finds out asshole was released again, woman in hospital. Woman too afraid to press charges.

    Sometimes, the system is just completely fucked.

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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited April 26
    The system is terrible but even knowing that I can’t believe this kind of thing is so common, it seems like such an obvious fix, who is opposing it? I’m ashamed to admit I don’t even know how such laws would come about in Australia, despite being born and bred here. Surely this is an easy win for any political party to introduce?

    Like I get that these are complex and fallible systems run by complex and fallible people and variables, but surely this kind of thing should at least have something on paper that makes intimate partners charged with violence by their partner flagged as a specific and accuse risk to public and witness safety?

    It really feels like everything worked here except bail laws and recommendations. The cops arrested the guy, the victim charged, and the cops recommended he be remanded without bail, and he just wasn’t? Why? Is it completely under the purview of the judge? There is no guidelines or pressures on the judges for cases like this? It seems like such an obviously fixable blind spot

    This is a problem that’s so complex, but in this specific case it feels like the solution is so blindingly obvious. Bail shouldn’t be granted in cases where the accused is likely to attack or intimidate the accused. It’s like the baseline of why this entire thing exists and why we don’t just give everyone bail

    Prohass on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited April 26
    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    With all the coercive control laws going into effect, I would have hoped things are heading in the right direction?

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »

    On the plus side Media Matters did such a thorough take down of this practice that it's died out entirely.

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