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HP goes up so that damage numbers can go up. You could probably normalize things around mostly-flat HP totals (increasing very slowly when people actually bulk up) and not actually have the relative threat of any hit change at all, but it would be a pain...
I think what really would need to be "solved" to make HP less explicitly gamey in D&D is changing healing. In a scenario where a level 1 fighter and level 20 fighter go down the one who you're to believe has more tenacity, more experience shrugging off near fatal blows, etc etc needs way more spell levels to get back to 100%, which just implies they have more meat.
I feel like 4th ed fed into the verisimilitude better, but that could just be me.
QuetziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderatormod
Yeah, for fixed HP D&D I think I would probably drop healing down a little bit (moving 1d8 to 1d6, for instance), and have higher level healing kind of branch off in various directions - sure, you could do a healing spell that heals 4d6, but at the same level, maybe one that heals 2d6 and damages nearby enemies, or provides a bonus to defenses for the next couple of turns, that sort of thing.
Which I also feel would make mid-combat healing feel a lot more potentially useful, as I feel it frequently doesn't feel entirely worth it unless someone is truly about to die.
TBH I think you can have as big a health pool as you want.
It just has to be interesting when you get hit. Most RPG's do that simply by having HP/wound systems low enough that even one or two hits threaten you (OSR stuff). Others do it by having stakes to any damage in concrete lumps (FitD).
D&D just kinda... you're just as cool a 1 health as you are 100 and none of the CC or things that slow you down mechanically have any relation to the fact that you are on deaths door.
Which is the big issue. People often joke that D&D combat can be 'I swing and miss and now I wait five minutes' but it's also 'I swing, I hit, it's not dead, I'm fine and now I wait five minutes just to do the exact same thing again'.
I wish bloodied had carried over from 4e more thoroughly (Champion has it on their Regen, for example). It would be cool to have some more modal abilities, but it feels like that's not the kind of complexity that 5e was looking for.
I think taking damage as points and healing it as percentages could be a good idea. Makes it feel better to take these small chunks and then heal a big chunk.
Maybe even give some dedicated attacker classes moves that do percentage damage as an opener.
I think what really would need to be "solved" to make HP less explicitly gamey in D&D is changing healing. In a scenario where a level 1 fighter and level 20 fighter go down the one who you're to believe has more tenacity, more experience shrugging off near fatal blows, etc etc needs way more spell levels to get back to 100%, which just implies they have more meat.
I feel like 4th ed fed into the verisimilitude better, but that could just be me.
To an extent, yeah, but a 1st level fighter is going down because a kobold threw a rock at him and a 20th level fighter is going down because a millennia old dragon spit magma at him, so I dunno, it does feel appropriate when the cleric has to go, "hey god, I need a BIG favor here"
A really simple way to make healing cool but the grind threatening is the text 'recover half of your missing HP (rounded down)'
So if you have 20 max HP then:
At 15 it heals only 2.
At 10 it heals 5
At 5 it heals 7.
At 1 it heals 9.
Makes it so that healing can feel clutch but can be wasted at higher HP and also institutes a 'you never go to fresh and full till you rest properly' aspect.
I mean, really, the issue goes back to binary pass/fail (crit) for combat/defenses. You add too much complexity and it becomes a more tactical game which isn't D&D. 4e tried it and succeeded, but people hated it.
I think it could be solved by making "buckets" of hit points a la stamina and health, but that's not the D&D method. At this point, the system is at its easiest to use and grasp. I think that's a good starting point, but I seriously doubt they add a lot more complexity to the next version. I really like PF2 for a refinement of this kind of game, but it's all been back-tracking since 4e.
The silliest thing about DnD HP is how optimized healing is just letting party members get knocked out then healing them for like 1 hp and just repeating over and over again
HP being binary is one thing that actually helps healing types. With my Druid if someone isn't on the ground it's not worth losing an action to heal them, so I can keep on doing damage. I'd also rather just be a bear than help my teammates, so maybe I'm a bad Druid.
HP being binary is one thing that actually helps healing types. With my Druid if someone isn't on the ground it's not worth losing an action to heal them, so I can keep on doing damage. I'd also rather just be a bear than help my teammates, so maybe I'm a bad Druid.
I'm pretty sure being a bear and letting your party live or die on their own merits is called natural selection or something?
HP being binary is one thing that actually helps healing types. With my Druid if someone isn't on the ground it's not worth losing an action to heal them, so I can keep on doing damage. I'd also rather just be a bear than help my teammates, so maybe I'm a bad Druid.
Colourized footage of healers fucking around and finding out:
Potions replenish your stamina, maybe hit you with a bit of an endorphin boost or some adrenaline, that sort of thing.
Healing magic is a variety of things - when the bard heals you, he's telling you you're the best, when the cleric heals you, she's using scripture to provide support and solace through faith, when the warlord heals you, they're explaining how to avoid overexerting yourself and that you should keep your damn shield up.
I meant combat checks/defenses being binary. I actually think HP, death, dying, etc. being simple/binary is a good thing. I'd rather it be not that, but the game isn't for me to begin with. I think you'd have to do an overhaul of the system to make it less dumb. Yet if you tack on too much baggage to the way things currently are, it'd be at a serious detriment to play. The structure is currently fine for what it wants to do.
I think adding fatigue on top of the current HP system and having healing spells remove fatigue makes the most sense to my brain. Add bloodied as a halfway/three-quarters through your hit points, with healing spells bringing you back to above that point would be perfect. But I want a more tactical game.
Edited for clarity
A duck! was not talking to me, it seems. I didn't see so many responses. I am bad at this.
We play our game in roll20 and some of my spells have conditional damage rolls. Like, 3d6 normally, but if X then 5d6. The way I set up the spell script is to just roll both those at once for every cast and we use the relevant number, instead of making two versions.
Pretty sure it's been every single time where X has triggered the stronger attack, the 5d6 result has been lower than the 3d6 one.
+3
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
playing a healing type in D&D is awful. the fact that it's still terrible after like 30 years of iteration says a lot
Well... they did iterate it into being good, but people revolted against 4E so we got 5E.
Healing classes are arguably the biggest victim of the fact that D&D's core ideology was always wargaming-based. When you're playing one or more of 8-12 PCs and your role is combat medic, that's a cool role. When you're playing one of four borderline-superheroes and your role is combat medic, that's not a cool role.
Spiritual Weapon sort of solves the combat medic issue - you drop that early in the fight and let it do the attacking, leaving you free to dump healing into the Barbarian
I was a combat medic in Pathfinder 2 and maybe because there were only 3 of us, or that P2 is incredibly swingy with damage, but it was really fun and very important. To where if I had been a different class wed probably have had a miserable time full of tpks. I enjoy the healing-and-little-else role in general though.
HP being binary is one thing that actually helps healing types. With my Druid if someone isn't on the ground it's not worth losing an action to heal them, so I can keep on doing damage. I'd also rather just be a bear than help my teammates, so maybe I'm a bad Druid.
Nah good druid, healing in combat is… bad.
You either want to drop something to 0 HP ASAP so it stops dealing damage or CC something to it deals no damage. Healing is a last resort to maintain action economy, basically.
+3
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Spiritual Weapon sort of solves the combat medic issue - you drop that early in the fight and let it do the attacking, leaving you free to dump healing into the Barbarian
Or maybe that's just how I play a Cleric
Clerics have a lot of great blasting, and healing in combat is actually incredibly inefficient, action economywise.
So far, my cleric just has healing word and an (incredibly powerful) channel divinity, that we agreed on nerfing.
...Flatout Games' current KS (Verdant) is fully funded but has nice stretch goals. I'm planning to pick up the previous two games for myself in the pledge manager. (Having played the copy of Calico I gifted.)
TL;DW it talks about how long historical sword fights were and, unsurprisingly they vary from very fast one or two move affairs to very protracted, long, drag out fights.
Which, naturally is a hard thing for any one system to capture both. I feel like I beat this drum forever but this is why I like FitD, based on narrative interest in a fight, you can set a like, great effect fight roll that dispatches the opponent in one blow. Or the enemy could have multiple clocks and your base effect starts as limited, and you’ll be at this a while. It’s just so flexible.
TL;DW it talks about how long historical sword fights were and, unsurprisingly they vary from very fast one or two move affairs to very protracted, long, drag out fights.
Which, naturally is a hard thing for any one system to capture both. I feel like I beat this drum forever but this is why I like FitD, based on narrative interest in a fight, you can set a like, great effect fight roll that dispatches the opponent in one blow. Or the enemy could have multiple clocks and your base effect starts as limited, and you’ll be at this a while. It’s just so flexible.
make a ttrpg that plays out like Bushido Blade fight
playing a healing type in D&D is awful. the fact that it's still terrible after like 30 years of iteration says a lot
Well... they did iterate it into being good, but people revolted against 4E so we got 5E.
Healing classes are arguably the biggest victim of the fact that D&D's core ideology was always wargaming-based. When you're playing one or more of 8-12 PCs and your role is combat medic, that's a cool role. When you're playing one of four borderline-superheroes and your role is combat medic, that's not a cool role.
Yeah, like, 4E "laser" cleric is easily some of the most fun I've had with any grid-based RPG system. It was an incredibly well-designed support class.
Stilts on
+2
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
As a reminder, a turn in D&D is supposed to be 6 seconds.
playing a healing type in D&D is awful. the fact that it's still terrible after like 30 years of iteration says a lot
Well... they did iterate it into being good, but people revolted against 4E so we got 5E.
Healing classes are arguably the biggest victim of the fact that D&D's core ideology was always wargaming-based. When you're playing one or more of 8-12 PCs and your role is combat medic, that's a cool role. When you're playing one of four borderline-superheroes and your role is combat medic, that's not a cool role.
Yeah, like, 4E "laser" cleric is easily some of the most fun I've had with any grid-based RPG system. It was an incredibly well-designed support class.
My 4e Warlord will likely always be my favorite character. Only one I've ever specifically bought either a mini or dice specifically for, let alone both
TL;DW it talks about how long historical sword fights were and, unsurprisingly they vary from very fast one or two move affairs to very protracted, long, drag out fights.
Which, naturally is a hard thing for any one system to capture both. I feel like I beat this drum forever but this is why I like FitD, based on narrative interest in a fight, you can set a like, great effect fight roll that dispatches the opponent in one blow. Or the enemy could have multiple clocks and your base effect starts as limited, and you’ll be at this a while. It’s just so flexible.
make a ttrpg that plays out like Bushido Blade fight
There’s actually a bunch of those all built off runequest or riddle of steel.
0
GrogMy sword is only steelin a useful shape.Registered Userregular
4e called them Leaders for a reason.
+7
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
all this talk of hit points and alternatives and I am genuinely surprised nobody has brought up Blades in the Dark.
To me the Stress/Harm system there is a perfect abstraction of the John McLane/cinematic damage abstraction that some folks are describing. Basically Stress is effectively your hit points, while Harm is narrative consequences. The hero of the story isn't going to get taken out as easily as a random goon, but repeated close scrapes and near misses are going to wear on you over time, and every now and then your luck is going to run out, or you'll need to take a hit to because you don't have the energy or opportunity to avoid it.
(i.e., your stress clock is almost full, so taking harm rather than risking your character having a breakdown might be a better option)
Stress can be recovered in different ways, and largely restored between jobs, but Harm is more permanent, and recovering from it is a long-term project that can take multiple downtime actions depending on the severity.
Oh man, I'm really tempted to drop $350 on the highest tier for the second skinny minis Kickstarter. Someone talk me down (don't talk me down)
I've been looking for something like that to have a sort of baseline collection. They seem to understand that you need multiples of most monsters.
Yeah, like the big monsters and whatnot are neat, but having enough, say, gnolls for an encounter is way more important for me.
They also make the Dungeon in a Box subscription, so I already have some of their skinny minis and can attest to their quality. The thing is is that the ones I have are tailored for each box, so it's just sort of a random assortment of mooks and I want to have a baseline set.
Posts
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I feel like 4th ed fed into the verisimilitude better, but that could just be me.
Pintpoints
Which I also feel would make mid-combat healing feel a lot more potentially useful, as I feel it frequently doesn't feel entirely worth it unless someone is truly about to die.
It just has to be interesting when you get hit. Most RPG's do that simply by having HP/wound systems low enough that even one or two hits threaten you (OSR stuff). Others do it by having stakes to any damage in concrete lumps (FitD).
D&D just kinda... you're just as cool a 1 health as you are 100 and none of the CC or things that slow you down mechanically have any relation to the fact that you are on deaths door.
Which is the big issue. People often joke that D&D combat can be 'I swing and miss and now I wait five minutes' but it's also 'I swing, I hit, it's not dead, I'm fine and now I wait five minutes just to do the exact same thing again'.
Maybe even give some dedicated attacker classes moves that do percentage damage as an opener.
To an extent, yeah, but a 1st level fighter is going down because a kobold threw a rock at him and a 20th level fighter is going down because a millennia old dragon spit magma at him, so I dunno, it does feel appropriate when the cleric has to go, "hey god, I need a BIG favor here"
So if you have 20 max HP then:
At 15 it heals only 2.
At 10 it heals 5
At 5 it heals 7.
At 1 it heals 9.
Makes it so that healing can feel clutch but can be wasted at higher HP and also institutes a 'you never go to fresh and full till you rest properly' aspect.
I think it could be solved by making "buckets" of hit points a la stamina and health, but that's not the D&D method. At this point, the system is at its easiest to use and grasp. I think that's a good starting point, but I seriously doubt they add a lot more complexity to the next version. I really like PF2 for a refinement of this kind of game, but it's all been back-tracking since 4e.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I'm pretty sure being a bear and letting your party live or die on their own merits is called natural selection or something?
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Colourized footage of healers fucking around and finding out:
Potions replenish your stamina, maybe hit you with a bit of an endorphin boost or some adrenaline, that sort of thing.
Healing magic is a variety of things - when the bard heals you, he's telling you you're the best, when the cleric heals you, she's using scripture to provide support and solace through faith, when the warlord heals you, they're explaining how to avoid overexerting yourself and that you should keep your damn shield up.
I think adding fatigue on top of the current HP system and having healing spells remove fatigue makes the most sense to my brain. Add bloodied as a halfway/three-quarters through your hit points, with healing spells bringing you back to above that point would be perfect. But I want a more tactical game.
Edited for clarity
A duck! was not talking to me, it seems. I didn't see so many responses. I am bad at this.
Pretty sure it's been every single time where X has triggered the stronger attack, the 5d6 result has been lower than the 3d6 one.
Well... they did iterate it into being good, but people revolted against 4E so we got 5E.
Healing classes are arguably the biggest victim of the fact that D&D's core ideology was always wargaming-based. When you're playing one or more of 8-12 PCs and your role is combat medic, that's a cool role. When you're playing one of four borderline-superheroes and your role is combat medic, that's not a cool role.
Or maybe that's just how I play a Cleric
Nah good druid, healing in combat is… bad.
You either want to drop something to 0 HP ASAP so it stops dealing damage or CC something to it deals no damage. Healing is a last resort to maintain action economy, basically.
Clerics have a lot of great blasting, and healing in combat is actually incredibly inefficient, action economywise.
So far, my cleric just has healing word and an (incredibly powerful) channel divinity, that we agreed on nerfing.
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/780290/view/4973652682558790831
There's an adaptation (not a direct translation a la TTS or Tabletopia) on Steam.
And selfishly, if you liked Calico or Cascadia...
(here, try 'em demo solo vs AI!
Calico:
https://myautoma.github.io/games/calico/index.html
Cascadia:
https://cascadiagame.github.io/)
...Flatout Games' current KS (Verdant) is fully funded but has nice stretch goals. I'm planning to pick up the previous two games for myself in the pledge manager. (Having played the copy of Calico I gifted.)
TL;DW it talks about how long historical sword fights were and, unsurprisingly they vary from very fast one or two move affairs to very protracted, long, drag out fights.
Which, naturally is a hard thing for any one system to capture both. I feel like I beat this drum forever but this is why I like FitD, based on narrative interest in a fight, you can set a like, great effect fight roll that dispatches the opponent in one blow. Or the enemy could have multiple clocks and your base effect starts as limited, and you’ll be at this a while. It’s just so flexible.
DM: "Okay."
Me: "Nico pulls out a dagger, slices his thumb, and begins flicking blood around the room perimeter while talking to himself."
Bard: "OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?"
Nico: "I am making magic alarm for safety."
Bard: "Why does it need blood?
Nico: "Blood very important. You need blood to live. No blood, maybe witch come in and eat your thumbs. You want no thumbs in morning?"
I am never, ever going to get bored of acting out a second rate Vistani.
make a ttrpg that plays out like Bushido Blade fight
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Yeah, like, 4E "laser" cleric is easily some of the most fun I've had with any grid-based RPG system. It was an incredibly well-designed support class.
My 4e Warlord will likely always be my favorite character. Only one I've ever specifically bought either a mini or dice specifically for, let alone both
There’s actually a bunch of those all built off runequest or riddle of steel.
Give me $125 and I will make an equal number of minis really badly out of clay.
I've been looking for something like that to have a sort of baseline collection. They seem to understand that you need multiples of most monsters.
To me the Stress/Harm system there is a perfect abstraction of the John McLane/cinematic damage abstraction that some folks are describing. Basically Stress is effectively your hit points, while Harm is narrative consequences. The hero of the story isn't going to get taken out as easily as a random goon, but repeated close scrapes and near misses are going to wear on you over time, and every now and then your luck is going to run out, or you'll need to take a hit to because you don't have the energy or opportunity to avoid it.
(i.e., your stress clock is almost full, so taking harm rather than risking your character having a breakdown might be a better option)
Stress can be recovered in different ways, and largely restored between jobs, but Harm is more permanent, and recovering from it is a long-term project that can take multiple downtime actions depending on the severity.
Yeah, like the big monsters and whatnot are neat, but having enough, say, gnolls for an encounter is way more important for me.
They also make the Dungeon in a Box subscription, so I already have some of their skinny minis and can attest to their quality. The thing is is that the ones I have are tailored for each box, so it's just sort of a random assortment of mooks and I want to have a baseline set.