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[d20 Discussion] You either get busy livin', or get busy craftin'.

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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    Speak for yourself, I was bied up and down the whole damned street.

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    To agree or to awesome has never been so hard. Love that explanation.

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    That last post was for @kime but you can take it either way.

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    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    but you can take it either way.

    I see what you did there

    steam_sig.png
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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    but you can take it either way.

    I see what you did there

    ;)

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Also, if you really want to do Transgendered characters I'm going to just casually point out that both changelings (per-ebberon: rising from the last war 5e) and elves (per mordenkainen's which implies that some of them till have the ability to shift between male and female or some hybrid thereof) are right there.

    Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy has an NPC that sells (incredibly cheaply) gender affirming magical treatments, and its Imoen from Baldur's Gate

    she also both sells cures to lycanthrope AND lycanthrope, whichever one makes you feel more like your true self

    It answers the question of "what if you're trans in D&D?", well if you have the money, you can have someone wave a wand and POOF, your body matches your internal image

    override367 on
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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    Unless you want it to be a core part of your adventure. To scale Mount Olympus and parley with Athena, who will only remake you if you undertake the arduous task of finding the map that reveals the location of Pandora’s Box and retrieving it for her. Naturally, you must do so under the neglectful eye of Zeus and so she cannot give you much open aid, save through her secret agent, Medusa…

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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    asking people to buy things from old editions is silly too, I wish WOTC would put out some more stuff about whats going on in toril. They could even do limited release/drivetrhoughrpg like minsc & boo's journal of villainy was

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    I mean... putting aside the hundreds of novels (of starkly varied quality) many of which will be at your local library, Wiki's/fansites, games and materials from older editions there is no reason that WotC can't release campaign guides to the established settings. I've made a point of buying a fair few of them so that I'd be familiar with the materials so that at a bare minimum I can mine them for ideas I can port into other settings.

    This actually led to one of my more absurd characters in the form of Ulf Chaddson, a male human paladin in a "nordic" setting that I used stuff from mythic theross for; specifically the oath of glory and athlete background.
    asking people to buy things from old editions is silly too, I wish WOTC would put out some more stuff about whats going on in toril. They could even do limited release/drivetrhoughrpg like minsc & boo's journal of villainy was
    ]
    That was actually one of the complaints I had with SCAG back when it was first released in my review; Faerun is a hell of a lot bigger then the sword coast and only getting like, a paragraph to describe the dales or cormyr really, really sucked.

    That having been said, with how unhappy they seem to be with FR I'd hope they'd go and make a whole new setting to better reflect the direction they seem to want the company to go.

    Gaddez on
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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    I mean... putting aside the hundreds of novels (of starkly varied quality) many of which will be at your local library, Wiki's/fansites, games and materials from older editions there is no reason that WotC can't release campaign guides to the established settings. I've made a point of buying a fair few of them so that I'd be familiar with the materials so that at a bare minimum I can mine them for ideas I can port into other settings.

    This actually led to one of my more absurd characters in the form of Ulf Chaddson, a male human paladin in a "nordic" setting that I used stuff from mythic theross for; specifically the oath of glory and athlete background.

    Sure, and as a DM I've done additional research. I wouldn't expect my players to though. We’re there to play D&D and not take a history lesson. I have to fit lore down into what I can organically convey at the table.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Gaddez wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    I mean... putting aside the hundreds of novels (of starkly varied quality) many of which will be at your local library, Wiki's/fansites, games and materials from older editions there is no reason that WotC can't release campaign guides to the established settings. I've made a point of buying a fair few of them so that I'd be familiar with the materials so that at a bare minimum I can mine them for ideas I can port into other settings.

    This actually led to one of my more absurd characters in the form of Ulf Chaddson, a male human paladin in a "nordic" setting that I used stuff from mythic theross for; specifically the oath of glory and athlete background.

    the problem is that while in the campaigns they reference events of the newer books, we have no idea what the"canon" state of the forgotten realms is as of 5e.

    What's the deal with Netheril? What's going on in Rashaman (AKA the most interesting place on Toril, where a group of Drow invaders can be killed by disrespecting a puddle)?

    I think an issue is that their writers have different levels of knowledge on the world, some seem to reference a lot of earlier novels like in Frostmaiden, others like OOTA reference novels that were just written (but utterly fail to give surrounding context)

    override367 on
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    I mean... putting aside the hundreds of novels (of starkly varied quality) many of which will be at your local library, Wiki's/fansites, games and materials from older editions there is no reason that WotC can't release campaign guides to the established settings. I've made a point of buying a fair few of them so that I'd be familiar with the materials so that at a bare minimum I can mine them for ideas I can port into other settings.

    This actually led to one of my more absurd characters in the form of Ulf Chaddson, a male human paladin in a "nordic" setting that I used stuff from mythic theross for; specifically the oath of glory and athlete background.

    the problem is that while in the campaigns they reference events of the newer books, we have no idea what the"canon" state of the forgotten realms is as of 5e.

    What's the deal with Netheril? They lost their shade enclave and had to sign a peace treaty handing over most of their territory, but they still have cities (including a magical academy) in Anarauch
    I know what's going on with Gauntlgrym, Waterdeep, and Luskan, it'd be nice if it was published somewhere that didn't require the referencing of literally multiple novels! Out of the Abyss is the worst offender because if you don't know wtf Gantlgrym is or why Bruenor Battlehammer is still alive because you haven't read all 40 drizzt books, well go fuck yourself I guess, make it up!

    Part of the issue with this is that FR is frankly gargantuan in terms of it's lore and/or scale and the best way for them to approach this would have been to do a whole whack of guides for the various regions; like having one for Cormyr, one for the anaroch, the dales and so on and so forth. And now me? I'd of loved to have had a a whack of SCAG sized books with references to culture and noble houses and topography and history but a lot of customers would be looking at them from under the shade of their jutting brow's and going "I PAID 40 DOLLARS AND GOT JUST BORING TEXT WITHOUT CLASSES OR MONSTERS OR MAGIC ITEMS!")

    But hey if you're confused when the lore doesn't make sense or characters are just plopped into places for reasons that make no sense (looking at you dragonbait) jusst remember that lore only exists if the current writers decide it exists and if what they write is contradictory to the past 30+ years of canon then just discard all that lore and blindly accept that which has been put in front of you!

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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Personally id be fine with jettisoning the lore with each edition and focusing on making the different adventures interconnect in interesting ways.

    Lets rock the blank slate and get going. Then each edition can have its own unique lore and we dont need dozens of books and decades of time worth of baggage.

    The books can live outside the TTRPG lore and can have their own continuity.

    To elaborate further, each setting should be seeking out to explore unique themes, and then when new editions come out the devs can look at those settings, the state of culture and decide how to tell new stories exploring those themes without being weighed down by what came before.

    webguy20 on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    It is a perennial problem with long established settings that have many books written in them.

    It’s one reason why points of light and spell jammer were good. You get to say “well the universe is pretty infinite and so it’s very likely that this place does not know of this other place”

    wbBv3fj.png
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So to go back to a page about campaign settings, i play in Faerun because thats where the majority of published adventures are set. I know jack shit about the lore beyond what the adventures give. I imagine as the hobby grows more and more players and DMs are going to be in the same boat.

    I mean... putting aside the hundreds of novels (of starkly varied quality) many of which will be at your local library, Wiki's/fansites, games and materials from older editions there is no reason that WotC can't release campaign guides to the established settings. I've made a point of buying a fair few of them so that I'd be familiar with the materials so that at a bare minimum I can mine them for ideas I can port into other settings.

    This actually led to one of my more absurd characters in the form of Ulf Chaddson, a male human paladin in a "nordic" setting that I used stuff from mythic theross for; specifically the oath of glory and athlete background.

    the problem is that while in the campaigns they reference events of the newer books, we have no idea what the"canon" state of the forgotten realms is as of 5e.

    What's the deal with Netheril? They lost their shade enclave and had to sign a peace treaty handing over most of their territory, but they still have cities (including a magical academy) in Anarauch
    I know what's going on with Gauntlgrym, Waterdeep, and Luskan, it'd be nice if it was published somewhere that didn't require the referencing of literally multiple novels! Out of the Abyss is the worst offender because if you don't know wtf Gantlgrym is or why Bruenor Battlehammer is still alive because you haven't read all 40 drizzt books, well go fuck yourself I guess, make it up!

    Part of the issue with this is that FR is frankly gargantuan in terms of it's lore and/or scale and the best way for them to approach this would have been to do a whole whack of guides for the various regions; like having one for Cormyr, one for the anaroch, the dales and so on and so forth. And now me? I'd of loved to have had a a whack of SCAG sized books with references to culture and noble houses and topography and history but a lot of customers would be looking at them from under the shade of their jutting brow's and going "I PAID 40 DOLLARS AND GOT JUST BORING TEXT WITHOUT CLASSES OR MONSTERS OR MAGIC ITEMS!")

    But hey if you're confused when the lore doesn't make sense or characters are just plopped into places for reasons that make no sense (looking at you dragonbait) jusst remember that lore only exists if the current writers decide it exists and if what they write is contradictory to the past 30+ years of canon then just discard all that lore and blindly accept that which has been put in front of you!

    They could, at the least, just do it for the adventures they're in

    like, Dragon Heist could explain a bit more about whats going on in water deep

    Minsc & Boo's Journal of Villainy is exactly what I want by the way, there are authors out there willing to create it, and WOTC certainly wouldn't be harmed financially by giving them the go ahead. If they don't give a shit about their core setting, then pass the torch

    I could write the summary that I've asked for myself if I could quit my job, but even if I got an editor and put it on DMsguild, it would get immediately shitcanned because I'm not WOTC and I don't own the rights to their work and they are super protective compared to some other TTRPG companies

    override367 on
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    ThawmusThawmus +Jackface Registered User regular
    I'd just like for them to give me something to work with when I'm running a module.

    Like I'm running Hoard of the Dragon Queen and when they get to Waterdeep it doesn't even get a paragraph of description. As someone not versed in FR, I dunno what the fuck Waterdeep is or what happens there or anything. I'm not even given a sense of scale. Is it a big city? Is it a waterhole? I dunno!

    Twitch: Thawmus83
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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Thawmus wrote: »
    I'd just like for them to give me something to work with when I'm running a module.

    Like I'm running Hoard of the Dragon Queen and when they get to Waterdeep it doesn't even get a paragraph of description. As someone not versed in FR, I dunno what the fuck Waterdeep is or what happens there or anything. I'm not even given a sense of scale. Is it a big city? Is it a waterhole? I dunno!

    Ok yea thats bad. Thats just basic shit right there.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    I think the reason I like Storm King's Thunder so much is how much ancillary knowledge there is. It's legitimately a better sword coast adventure guide than the sword coast adventure guide is!

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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    I think the reason I like Storm King's Thunder so much is how much ancillary knowledge there is. It's legitimately a better sword coast adventure guide than the sword coast adventure guide is!

    Its a better gazetteer for "The Savage North" than it is a module, yes.

    "Savage North" isn't really accurate though, considering it contains Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Luskan, a plethora of mighty Dwarf kingdoms and gawddamned Silverymoon. There ain't nothin' savage about Silverymoon!

    Steelhawk on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Well Amn is probably down there calling it "The savage north" despite the fact that Amn is just an ancap paradise IE: a complete shithole

    override367 on
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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Speaking of SKT though.... my party is already into my modified Chapter 11. They've investigated the seaside murder scene of Queen Neri and got attacked by Chuul for their trouble. Tonight, they're heading into Neverwinter to track down survivors of the Golden Goose, a fairly well known pirate hunting ship that evidently was sunk at or near the same location and may be eyewitness to the murder of the Queen. Whilst in the city, a creepy dude with an Octopus as a pet on his shoulders will lure the party to a dockside tavern where they're to meet the survivors of the Goose... only for it to be a trap, and they're gonna have a good old fashioned bar brawl with pirate members of the Kraken Cult! Oh, and the Barbarian is gonna pay out his ass at some point for a magic tattoo by a street witch named Pow Ming, who hails from far to the east.

    Should be fun!

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Ah crap im almost done with SKT, missed last one cuz of easter but I think I'm ready to finish running this

    - Krakenfight (familiar + apparatus of kwalish + smokepowder = torpedo!)
    - Bit of downtime
    - Dragonborn fighter seduced storm giant princess Nym thus getting the beans spilled on the details of their whole thing so cat was quickly out of the bag on kraken and dragon
    - Dragonfight! Going to have the final fight be on Sansuri's cloud castle, since the party made friends with her, the cloud giant kiddies will be hostages and the dragon will have seized control of the constructed aarakocra. Sansuri will be found recently killed on the castle and I'm sure the party will spend a spell slot to bring her back to life before the final fight despite her priority being to get the kids and gtfo

    override367 on
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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    my wallet wrote:
    Ah yes, as I suspected.

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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2022
    In my ideal world we'd get Dragonlance: Death Gate and have a campaign setting spread across its 5 realms.

    Glal on
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Concerning, but this is definitley keeping in the direction that WotC has been going with their properties wherein it boils down to Which, if you don't care very much is fine and probably even funny with how upsetting it is to people who actually give a shit.

    Odds are I'm still going to buy it, though I may engage in some major flexes of rule 0 if the associated materials are too out of whack.

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    ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    I don’t think I care all that much that Grubb and Weiss / Hickman aren’t involved?

    Like, I’ve got their versions of things (and in W/H’s case, like, the way that DL kept getting blown up is one of the reasons it’s my least favorite official setting).

    File it under “would have been nice, I guess, but doesn’t move the needle.”

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    SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    So I've been prepping a big hex-crawl adventure on and off across the pandemic and am finally running it face to face with real people! The campaign map is sized for A0 (33.1"x 46.8"). Rather than print it myself on crappy paper, I've sent it off to the printers to get printed off on lightweight PVC.

    The map (low-res version attached) just shows the geography and none of the locations of interest (finding them being half the point). The players could just use dry-erase markers on the map to make notes but instead, and I'm very pleased with myself here, I'll be printing stickers! I've ordered some inkjet friendly , transparent sticker paper online so I can print (and cut out) custom, hex-sized, stickers to represent discoveries on the map. I'm unreasonably excited about this, and knowing my players they'll probably be more into putting stickers on the map than doing actual D&D stuff! But why wouldn't they be? Stickers rule!
    gcjf9nepsuf3.jpg

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    I don’t think I care all that much that Grubb and Weiss / Hickman aren’t involved?

    Like, I’ve got their versions of things (and in W/H’s case, like, the way that DL kept getting blown up is one of the reasons it’s my least favorite official setting).

    File it under “would have been nice, I guess, but doesn’t move the needle.”

    I think not consulting with original creators when you have both the ability (and if needed the money) is in bad taste and this would go for pretty much any property.

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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    I don’t think I care all that much that Grubb and Weiss / Hickman aren’t involved?

    Like, I’ve got their versions of things (and in W/H’s case, like, the way that DL kept getting blown up is one of the reasons it’s my least favorite official setting).

    File it under “would have been nice, I guess, but doesn’t move the needle.”

    I think not consulting with original creators when you have both the ability (and if needed the money) is in bad taste and this would go for pretty much any property.

    I'm somewhere in between on this one. It means little to me, the potential player/DM of these properties, whether or not the original creators were involved. As long as its a product I enjoy.

    But as a fan of the original product (DL more so than Spelljammer) and having them still be tied to so closely to the IP.... would it have killed WOTC to bring them in for a tour or something and an honorary executive producer credit their way? Its just the decent thing to do.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    WOTC doesn't have a lore guru for their other products, they don't really care about making things internally consistent, makes sense to me that they wouldn't even send a text despite not being obligated to use any suggestions

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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Isn't that Chris Perkins' entire job?

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    I don’t think I care all that much that Grubb and Weiss / Hickman aren’t involved?

    Like, I’ve got their versions of things (and in W/H’s case, like, the way that DL kept getting blown up is one of the reasons it’s my least favorite official setting).

    File it under “would have been nice, I guess, but doesn’t move the needle.”

    I think not consulting with original creators when you have both the ability (and if needed the money) is in bad taste and this would go for pretty much any property.

    I'm somewhere in between on this one. It means little to me, the potential player/DM of these properties, whether or not the original creators were involved. As long as its a product I enjoy.

    But as a fan of the original product (DL more so than Spelljammer) and having them still be tied to so closely to the IP.... would it have killed WOTC to bring them in for a tour or something and an honorary executive producer credit their way? Its just the decent thing to do.

    Like it isn't a deal breaker for me that the people who built one of the most iconic fantasy settings in the whole D&D franchise weren't involved (and given the relationship Margret and Tracy have had with WotC it isn't even unexpected) but I do find it concerning that they wouldn't talk to the creators at all when they are ostensibly building the setting in the heart of it's most well established time period as opposed to some other pint further down the timeline past the war of souls and other similar events where they would have the most creative freedom.

    It is again a case of them trying to have it both ways and it's why I continue to argue that they should be making their own campaign setting as opposed to the weird fan fiction thing they're doing right now.
    WOTC doesn't have a lore guru for their other products, they don't really care about making things internally consistent, makes sense to me that they wouldn't even send a text despite not being obligated to use any suggestions

    I suspect their are people at the company that could fulfil that role, it's just that the current management doesn't seem to give a shit about any of it. Hell they pretty much came out and said it.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Isn't that Chris Perkins' entire job?

    Chris seems to be more of a "face of the company" kind of guy who does sells people on the game and runs stuff for Penny-arcade.

    Which is a fine job and I'm sure he knows his mystra from his mystara from his majere from his Majoram but If hisjob is to keep things inside of the lines...

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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited April 2022
    Somewhere in this excellent, long, interview with Perkins the Critical Role team did with him a few years ago he said that was the role he takes on for himself. Maybe not the offical official lore master or something, but there is a part of this conversation where considers himself responsible for the legacy of D&D. I guess I'm conflating it, probably.

    I haven't seen it for a while, but its a great interview.

    https://youtu.be/e1YtFalQhI8

    Steelhawk on
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    SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    So I've been prepping a big hex-crawl adventure on and off across the pandemic and am finally running it face to face with real people! The campaign map is sized for A0 (33.1"x 46.8"). Rather than print it myself on crappy paper, I've sent it off to the printers to get printed off on lightweight PVC.

    The map (low-res version attached) just shows the geography and none of the locations of interest (finding them being half the point). The players could just use dry-erase markers on the map to make notes but instead, and I'm very pleased with myself here, I'll be printing stickers! I've ordered some inkjet friendly , transparent sticker paper online so I can print (and cut out) custom, hex-sized, stickers to represent discoveries on the map. I'm unreasonably excited about this, and knowing my players they'll probably be more into putting stickers on the map than doing actual D&D stuff! But why wouldn't they be? Stickers rule!
    gcjf9nepsuf3.jpg


    And just 'cause I'm in a map making mood - the inaccurate, not to scale parchment map the party will receive early on. This is the map NPCs will be using to "mark your map" should it come up. It won't be terribly helpful - like playing Morrowind without a journal :lol:
    6chabrll2l49.jpg

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Not gonna lie, getting some serious pools of radiance nostalgia from looking at those hexmaps :)

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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    The maps are good but the city locations bug me. On rivers and in harbors damnit

    wbBv3fj.png
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    SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    The maps are good but the city locations bug me. On rivers and in harbors damnit

    A fine sentiment, but you can rest easy! None of the points of interest currently shown on that map are cities, and unless the PCs somehow build one there won't be any. I've also opted not to depict the thousands of rivers and streams that would flow in an area that size, and just show a few of the major ones, so the halfling hamlet, and the dwarven tradepost, and the smuggler's cove are in no danger of going thirsty!

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
This discussion has been closed.