Honestly, Voyager's biggest problem is following up TNG and DS9. It's average was just lower than those, overall was acceptable. It's high moments were RIGHT THERE with DS9 and TNG's high. I would easily put Year of Hell up against Into the Pale Moonlight or Best of Both Worlds.
It's still light years ahead of Enterprise.
I can't agree there. Voyager never manages to reach the highs of DS9 or TNG. It's got some good episodes but they are never as good as the good ones on those shows and the average overall is lower. Voyager is fundamentally like a blander more mediocre version of TNG. It's like TNG if S7 was the best it ever got or something. It's not as bad as The Internets sometimes claim but it's just never great and never feels like it starts firing on all cylinders.
Enterprise is of course infinitely worse. It's just amazingly bland and boring with basically no highlights.
I'm unlikely to change your mind, but the bolded part I disagree vehemently with. It's a lot less consistent about quality than the previous shows, but like I said, it's best episodes are every bit as good as TNG/DS9. In addition to year of Hell above, I'd add Equinox, a lot of the Doctor centric storylines (I'd put these up against most of the Data episodes).
I don't think Year of Hell comes even close to the great episodes of TNG or DS9. It's fundamentally a reset button episode from the get-go and everyone knows that. It's basically a collection of shocking twists we know are going to mean nothing and so it lacks real impact. It doesn't really showcase a great performance or a great narrative or great character work. It's fun and it's one of the better Voyager episodes but that last bit is kinda the problem.
I love a few characters on it but at least half the cast is bland as shit and so while you can have a good Doctor episode it's all hanging on 1 or 2 people and everyone else is just kinda there. Picardo can't carry this shit himself.
I'm suddenly filled with thoughts of a spinoff series.
Oops All Doctors.
A ship captained by an Emergency Command Hologram, with an Emergency Executive Officer Hologram as second in command, an Emergency Engineering Hologram as chief engineer, Emergency Tactical Hologram as head of security, medical headed up by our beloved Emergency Medical Hologram, constantly bickering with the Emergency Science Hologram over in the science wing.
EDIT: And of course, we can't forget the Emergency Crewman Holograms milling the halls.
EDIT EDIT: To add to this, all roles who are not on the ship proper will be played by Jeffrey Combs. Because fuck it.
Honestly, Voyager's biggest problem is following up TNG and DS9. It's average was just lower than those, overall was acceptable. It's high moments were RIGHT THERE with DS9 and TNG's high. I would easily put Year of Hell up against Into the Pale Moonlight or Best of Both Worlds.
It's still light years ahead of Enterprise.
I can't agree there. Voyager never manages to reach the highs of DS9 or TNG. It's got some good episodes but they are never as good as the good ones on those shows and the average overall is lower. Voyager is fundamentally like a blander more mediocre version of TNG. It's like TNG if S7 was the best it ever got or something. It's not as bad as The Internets sometimes claim but it's just never great and never feels like it starts firing on all cylinders.
Enterprise is of course infinitely worse. It's just amazingly bland and boring with basically no highlights.
I'm unlikely to change your mind, but the bolded part I disagree vehemently with. It's a lot less consistent about quality than the previous shows, but like I said, it's best episodes are every bit as good as TNG/DS9. In addition to year of Hell above, I'd add Equinox, a lot of the Doctor centric storylines (I'd put these up against most of the Data episodes).
I don't think Year of Hell comes even close to the great episodes of TNG or DS9. It's fundamentally a reset button episode from the get-go and everyone knows that. It's basically a collection of shocking twists we know are going to mean nothing and so it lacks real impact. It doesn't really showcase a great performance or a great narrative or great character work. It's fun and it's one of the better Voyager episodes but that last bit is kinda the problem.
I love a few characters on it but at least half the cast is bland as shit and so while you can have a good Doctor episode it's all hanging on 1 or 2 people and everyone else is just kinda there. Picardo can't carry this shit himself.
I thought Annorax was somewhat interesting as a villain, at least.
Oh man I'm the opposite. I love Sisko but when I first started it after TNG I wasn't sure. After Picard I was taken aback by how gruff he was. But the more I spent time with him the more I liked him. I love his passion.
The whole prophet thing was great too. I initially hated the Bajorans because it just felt like a play on the Puritans and it made my eye roll but then they kept developing it further into what it ended up being and I was shocked at how much I liked it.
The Bajorans - or more specifically the Bajoran religion - is one thing that really disappoints me from DS9. Such wasted potential.
It was Star Trek's first take on alien religion. But more than that, it was a truly alien religion. Imagine a religion where you have clear, concrete, unambiguous proof that your gods exist through stones that allow you to directly and personally interact with them. That would be a religion fundamentally different from any human one at its very core, a religion for which notions of faith or belief are irrelevant. How different a religion, a society, a priesthood would that be? On top of that, their prophecized messiah just arrived and sits in an office nearby and you can take an appointment to meet up for coffee, and also he found the entrance to the realm of their gods which again is a real physical realm people can (and routinely do) travel through and which contains their real physical gods which people can stop and talk with while they're in there. What kind of insane religious and social upheaval would that cause?
Instead of all that, we ended up with space catholics with a space pope and space demons to exorcise in a cave of literal space hellfire.
Honestly, Voyager's biggest problem is following up TNG and DS9. It's average was just lower than those, overall was acceptable. It's high moments were RIGHT THERE with DS9 and TNG's high. I would easily put Year of Hell up against Into the Pale Moonlight or Best of Both Worlds.
It's still light years ahead of Enterprise.
I can't agree there. Voyager never manages to reach the highs of DS9 or TNG. It's got some good episodes but they are never as good as the good ones on those shows and the average overall is lower. Voyager is fundamentally like a blander more mediocre version of TNG. It's like TNG if S7 was the best it ever got or something. It's not as bad as The Internets sometimes claim but it's just never great and never feels like it starts firing on all cylinders.
Enterprise is of course infinitely worse. It's just amazingly bland and boring with basically no highlights.
I'm unlikely to change your mind, but the bolded part I disagree vehemently with. It's a lot less consistent about quality than the previous shows, but like I said, it's best episodes are every bit as good as TNG/DS9. In addition to year of Hell above, I'd add Equinox, a lot of the Doctor centric storylines (I'd put these up against most of the Data episodes).
I don't think Year of Hell comes even close to the great episodes of TNG or DS9. It's fundamentally a reset button episode from the get-go and everyone knows that. It's basically a collection of shocking twists we know are going to mean nothing and so it lacks real impact. It doesn't really showcase a great performance or a great narrative or great character work. It's fun and it's one of the better Voyager episodes but that last bit is kinda the problem.
I love a few characters on it but at least half the cast is bland as shit and so while you can have a good Doctor episode it's all hanging on 1 or 2 people and everyone else is just kinda there. Picardo can't carry this shit himself.
This is a common complaint that I see about Trek (as it mostly existed pre-2000's) is that there were no lasting consequences.... and in this case I disagree that's a problem in this case. We had an absolute set of character examinations, with one of the best antagonists in Trek. In a lot of ways, YoH had a lot in common with Equinox, kind of examining a "what if?" of Voyager going a bit wrong. Character exploration and character growth don't have to be tied together. See: Half of O'Briens suffering.
Voyager's average was perfectly acceptable, it never quite got to the highs of TNG or DS9, or but barring one episode, it never reached their lows.
The biggest problem was that it was intentionally designed to be less serialised than DS9, just as more shows were starting to get more serialised. The execs wanted TNG Again, and that's what they got. Looking back, it's easy to see all the Could Have Beens that were missed, but I doubt that if it had turned into the Star Trek Galactica some people have said it should have been, it would have met with widespread approval.
(The irony of people complaining that their new Star Trek is too serialised and rallying behind the more individual SNW shall go unmentioned by me. Except for just then)
Let's be honest, there's a very simple and obvious reason why Picard in TNG never quotes anyone from the 2000s, and I'm perfectly happy for them to never bother to explain it.
One thing that's honestly giving me hope with SNW so far is they dont seem to be afraid to go "...Yeah, we came up with something better". I like the sewing the Jan 6 - > Eugenics -> WW3 stuff togther. It's elegant. Conituinity within a show is important, otherwise it turns into mad-libs, but the idea that a show's canon should remain involiate - especially a scifi show spread over how many fucking decades now? That can piss off. Come up with something better! Retcon things! Go "Yeah, that was dumb, we're ignoring it"
Your shows/books/whatever will be better for it (And want proof? Terry Prachett did this ALL THE TIME)
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
Honestly, Voyager's biggest problem is following up TNG and DS9. It's average was just lower than those, overall was acceptable. It's high moments were RIGHT THERE with DS9 and TNG's high. I would easily put Year of Hell up against Into the Pale Moonlight or Best of Both Worlds.
It's still light years ahead of Enterprise.
I can't agree there. Voyager never manages to reach the highs of DS9 or TNG. It's got some good episodes but they are never as good as the good ones on those shows and the average overall is lower. Voyager is fundamentally like a blander more mediocre version of TNG. It's like TNG if S7 was the best it ever got or something. It's not as bad as The Internets sometimes claim but it's just never great and never feels like it starts firing on all cylinders.
Enterprise is of course infinitely worse. It's just amazingly bland and boring with basically no highlights.
I'm unlikely to change your mind, but the bolded part I disagree vehemently with. It's a lot less consistent about quality than the previous shows, but like I said, it's best episodes are every bit as good as TNG/DS9. In addition to year of Hell above, I'd add Equinox, a lot of the Doctor centric storylines (I'd put these up against most of the Data episodes).
I don't think Year of Hell comes even close to the great episodes of TNG or DS9. It's fundamentally a reset button episode from the get-go and everyone knows that. It's basically a collection of shocking twists we know are going to mean nothing and so it lacks real impact. It doesn't really showcase a great performance or a great narrative or great character work. It's fun and it's one of the better Voyager episodes but that last bit is kinda the problem.
I love a few characters on it but at least half the cast is bland as shit and so while you can have a good Doctor episode it's all hanging on 1 or 2 people and everyone else is just kinda there. Picardo can't carry this shit himself.
This is a common complaint that I see about Trek (as it mostly existed pre-2000's) is that there were no lasting consequences.... and in this case I disagree that's a problem in this case. We had an absolute set of character examinations, with one of the best antagonists in Trek. In a lot of ways, YoH had a lot in common with Equinox, kind of examining a "what if?" of Voyager going a bit wrong. Character exploration and character growth don't have to be tied together. See: Half of O'Briens suffering.
I'm not talking about no lasting consequences. TNG rarely had those either. Both shows were very episodic with only the occasional plotline running in the background. The problem is there's no sense of short-term consequences either. When you so obviously parade the reset button in front of people, it robs actions of dramatic weight. Even though I know our characters are all gonna survive this episode and so is the ship, you can still generate dramatic tension in the moment. But once you tell me basically straight out that none of this matters, by the way you present the story, none of it is really gonna matter to me.
And beyond that there's not much else there. There is no strong character moments or interesting decisions or whatnot. There's no big dramatic set pieces. There's no point where I really care that much what is going on. It's kinda cool as a what-if but that really only does so much.
A big part of this is I barely care about most of these characters to begin with and I care even less about a version that's going to get reset before the credits.
It's like, I walked away from my TNG rewatch thinking "Man, I wish we'd gotten more Riker episodes. He was great and criminally underused." Voyager I can't think of any character that didn't get a ton of episodes devoted to them (Seven, The Doctor) who I thought the same way about.
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Voyager has characters that improve, but the storytelling never gets better and instead just keeps trying to crank up the drama dial. The quality of the first season versus the last isn't better, it's just got more and bigger things going on.
Leaving us with an ending situation where somehow the Borg queen views Janeway as some kind of arch-nemesis instead of just a moderate thorn in her side, collapsing stars, time travel, and interstellar teleportation all rolled into one.
It's been said before, but Voyager can largely be characterized by the phrase "missed opportunity."
It's definitely worth a watch, though! And when it hits it hits so good. The Thaw remains one of the best episodes of any Star Trek series.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Honestly, Voyager's biggest problem is following up TNG and DS9. It's average was just lower than those, overall was acceptable. It's high moments were RIGHT THERE with DS9 and TNG's high. I would easily put Year of Hell up against Into the Pale Moonlight or Best of Both Worlds.
It's still light years ahead of Enterprise.
I can't agree there. Voyager never manages to reach the highs of DS9 or TNG. It's got some good episodes but they are never as good as the good ones on those shows and the average overall is lower. Voyager is fundamentally like a blander more mediocre version of TNG. It's like TNG if S7 was the best it ever got or something. It's not as bad as The Internets sometimes claim but it's just never great and never feels like it starts firing on all cylinders.
Enterprise is of course infinitely worse. It's just amazingly bland and boring with basically no highlights.
I'm unlikely to change your mind, but the bolded part I disagree vehemently with. It's a lot less consistent about quality than the previous shows, but like I said, it's best episodes are every bit as good as TNG/DS9. In addition to year of Hell above, I'd add Equinox, a lot of the Doctor centric storylines (I'd put these up against most of the Data episodes).
I don't think Year of Hell comes even close to the great episodes of TNG or DS9. It's fundamentally a reset button episode from the get-go and everyone knows that. It's basically a collection of shocking twists we know are going to mean nothing and so it lacks real impact. It doesn't really showcase a great performance or a great narrative or great character work. It's fun and it's one of the better Voyager episodes but that last bit is kinda the problem.
I love a few characters on it but at least half the cast is bland as shit and so while you can have a good Doctor episode it's all hanging on 1 or 2 people and everyone else is just kinda there. Picardo can't carry this shit himself.
This is a common complaint that I see about Trek (as it mostly existed pre-2000's) is that there were no lasting consequences.... and in this case I disagree that's a problem in this case. We had an absolute set of character examinations, with one of the best antagonists in Trek. In a lot of ways, YoH had a lot in common with Equinox, kind of examining a "what if?" of Voyager going a bit wrong. Character exploration and character growth don't have to be tied together. See: Half of O'Briens suffering.
I'm not talking about no lasting consequences. TNG rarely had those either. Both shows were very episodic with only the occasional plotline running in the background. The problem is there's no sense of short-term consequences either. When you so obviously parade the reset button in front of people, it robs actions of dramatic weight. Even though I know our characters are all gonna survive this episode and so is the ship, you can still generate dramatic tension in the moment. But once you tell me basically straight out that none of this matters, by the way you present the story, none of it is really gonna matter to me.
And beyond that there's not much else there. There is no strong character moments or interesting decisions or whatnot. There's no big dramatic set pieces. There's no point where I really care that much what is going on. It's kinda cool as a what-if but that really only does so much.
This part is almost entirely untrue, almost every word of it except the last sentence.... unless you consider:
A big part of this is I barely care about most of these characters to begin with and I care even less about a version that's going to get reset before the credits.
This part is fair. If you don't buy into the characters at all, then your entire platform suffers, almost regardless of the quality of your storytelling. With that in mind, it explains a lot more about what you've been writing and fair enough.
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
To an extent. Retconning canon is not always a bad thing, but a consistent canon is also worldbuilding, which is also important.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
To an extent. Retconning canon is not always a bad thing, but a consistent canon is also worldbuilding, which is also important.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
I would argue Enterprise dropped the ball hard here to start the decline. All in the name of following up on a throwaway gag from a goofy episode of DS9 to address an issue no one cared about.
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
To an extent. Retconning canon is not always a bad thing, but a consistent canon is also worldbuilding, which is also important.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
Yeah I'd be down for a Star Trek movie that is a longer episode. The problem is that it wouldn't work for any audiences other than the fans. And they want that $200M return so it goes straight for action.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Yeah I'd be down for a Star Trek movie that is a longer episode. The problem is that it wouldn't work for any audiences other than the fans. And they want that $200M return so it goes straight for action.
Even when accounting for inflation, the budgets of Trek's 1-6 were pretty low. With modern CGI you can make some really decent looking films on a shoestring budget. I think they should go back to limited budgets. I think someone could make a really compelling Trek movie with a single episode budget from Picard or Discovery.
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
To an extent. Retconning canon is not always a bad thing, but a consistent canon is also worldbuilding, which is also important.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
My one takeaway from this graphic? If Lower Decks goes another five-six seasons, how will they be responsible* for the destruction of Romulus, and the temporal incursion that begets the Kelvin Verse?
* In a butterfly flapping it's wings manner, something small (a swiped commbadge, a missed cargo drop) leads to something bigger, which leads to something bigger still, which leads to disaster. I wouldn't want Boimler directly responsible** by sending a modified photon torpedo into their sun. But something inconsequential that can be tracked forward to that incident, I can definitely see them doing.
** Or maybe I do want that? Maybe that's exactly what I want?
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
To an extent. Retconning canon is not always a bad thing, but a consistent canon is also worldbuilding, which is also important.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
Yeah Klingons are sort of what I mean. Obviously, the Disco version didn't land for most people - so if they just undid it, and no mention why? I would give zero fucks. You tried something, it didn't work, move on
Yeah I'd be down for a Star Trek movie that is a longer episode. The problem is that it wouldn't work for any audiences other than the fans. And they want that $200M return so it goes straight for action.
Even when accounting for inflation, the budgets of Trek's 1-6 were pretty low. With modern CGI you can make some really decent looking films on a shoestring budget. I think they should go back to limited budgets. I think someone could make a really compelling Trek movie with a single episode budget from Picard or Discovery.
Really, Discovery-style Trek is basically movie-quality already. The sets are made to look good at 4K, and they're not exactly skimping on the effects. Like, write a stand-alone Discovery/BNW/Picard episode that's an hour and a half to two hours long, using the existing sets, make sure it's comprehensible to non-fans, and I'm not sure what would keep you from just shipping it to theaters.
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
My one takeaway from this graphic? If Lower Decks goes another five-six seasons, how will they be responsible* for the destruction of Romulus, and the temporal incursion that begets the Kelvin Verse?
* In a butterfly flapping it's wings manner, something small (a swiped commbadge, a missed cargo drop) leads to something bigger, which leads to something bigger still, which leads to disaster. I wouldn't want Boimler directly responsible** by sending a modified photon torpedo into their sun. But something inconsequential that can be tracked forward to that incident, I can definitely see them doing.
** Or maybe I do want that? Maybe that's exactly what I want?
Boimler wrote a report predicting the early supernova, it's about 3-4 PADDs down on the Captain's desk but she's just not got around to it because there's always a stack of reports on her desk from Boimler and it's usually about a whine in one of the eps conduits or the dolphins owing him some latinum and frankly it's just getting tiresome
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
Yes, sorry, I should have been more clear. Both Disco and Kelvin insisted on changing Klingons, for absolutely no good reason.
Yeah I'd be down for a Star Trek movie that is a longer episode. The problem is that it wouldn't work for any audiences other than the fans. And they want that $200M return so it goes straight for action.
Even when accounting for inflation, the budgets of Trek's 1-6 were pretty low. With modern CGI you can make some really decent looking films on a shoestring budget. I think they should go back to limited budgets. I think someone could make a really compelling Trek movie with a single episode budget from Picard or Discovery.
Really, Discovery-style Trek is basically movie-quality already. The sets are made to look good at 4K, and they're not exactly skimping on the effects. Like, write a stand-alone Discovery/BNW/Picard episode that's an hour and a half to two hours long, using the existing sets, make sure it's comprehensible to non-fans, and I'm not sure what would keep you from just shipping it to theaters.
Battle of The Binary System was effectively a Trek movie that could have stood alone as a prequel movie, at least in quality if not in story.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
Yes, sorry, I should have been more clear. Both Disco and Kelvin insisted on changing Klingons, for absolutely no good reason.
And the worst sin is that the redesign wasn't even very good. The actors themselves said how hard it was to act under those masks and fake teeth. There is something to be said for just gluing some shit to a dude's forehead and adding some facepaint to blend it in.
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
IMO it's neither good nor notoriously bad, unlike some of the episodes every fan knows by name. It just kind of is. One of those mid-season eps that most people forget unless it's on right now. 103 minutes of warm pudding.
Commander Zoom on
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
naw, it's a fine. studying a alien world secretly due to their fountain of youth, data somehow gets fucked and his right or wrong subroutine kicks in, he unmasks the federation, hyjinks ensue
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
IMO it's neither good nor notoriously bad, unlike some of the episodes every fan knows by name. It just kind of is. One of those mid-season eps that most people forget unless it's on right now. 103 minutes of warm pudding.
I mean, I'd still call one of those bad. It's not like Code of Honor or some shit. It's just a kinda boring and unmemorable execution of what could have been an interesting idea in the hands of better writers.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Re: Insurrection, this is a thought I've started to express in the MCU TV stuff. I'm less and less convinced that movies work as long episodes of TV and visa versa. Someone who knows more about movie/TV writing/pacing/etc (not hard) will probably come and tell me I'm wrong, but it seems like the various storytelling beats are just completely different in the two mediums.
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
I strongly disagree. I don't know what else you could want from a TNG episode. Sketchy admiral teaming up with bad guy aliens to screw over some poor planet for terrible reasons. You get some good Picard speeches to show the best in humanity and pull the vague allegory to a satisfying conclusion. A lot of great stuff there.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
It's all about execution. Insurrection hits the notes, but it doesn't really play the music, y'know? It's not egregiously, obviously bad but a combination of slack pacing, low stakes, and a lack of cinematic oomph conspire to make it feel kind of meh.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
No need to apologize to me! I am used to people being wrong about the Star Trek I love. For example, Insurrection was the best movie if you ask me*. I have just learned to let people have different opinions and ignore their hatred. It won't change how I feel about anything. I just hope the venting makes the experience better for the person. Hate watching excepted. That just confuses me.
*Don't try to change my mind. You won't succeed.
i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
I strongly disagree. I don't know what else you could want from a TNG episode. Sketchy admiral teaming up with bad guy aliens to screw over some poor planet for terrible reasons. You get some good Picard speeches to show the best in humanity and pull the vague allegory to a satisfying conclusion. A lot of great stuff there.
This is a very convincing argument.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
It's all about execution. Insurrection hits the notes, but it doesn't really play the music, y'know? It's not egregiously, obviously bad but a combination of slack pacing, low stakes, and a lack of cinematic oomph conspire to make it feel kind of meh.
Agreed on all counts except one: Anthony Zerbe is the platonic ideal of the sketchy Admiral; he’s so tried-and-true at playing complete slimes, and it’s a delight to see Star Trek leverage that.
Another great episode, though also one that i think is going to piss some people off. But really, really, really good all the same.
Also just some nice Sci-Fi Horror vibes and other great bits. I'm really enjoying how while they're going Episodic, they're also doing each episode as a character(s) piece. Excellent and economical writing. Also, more Hemmer being excellent and also hilariously terrifying.
Throughout the entire episode, all I could think about was the Moth/Lamp memes.
Also, Ensign Lance looks like Timothee Chalamet's stunt double.
The super-tanned roommates of Uhura made me crack up. I loved it when Hemmer was trying to transport magma into the transporter room. And just a lot of Hemmer in general.
I'm not sure I'm fond of Number One secretly being an augment or the whole thing about Doctor M'benga hiding his daughter in the transporter buffer. Those plot points felt like they both came out of left field. I was like "D'wah? What?"
Throughout the entire episode, all I could think about was the Moth/Lamp memes.
Also, Ensign Lance looks like Timothee Chalamet's stunt double.
The super-tanned roommates of Uhura made me crack up. I loved it when Hemmer was trying to transport magma into the transporter room. And just a lot of Hemmer in general.
I'm not sure I'm fond of Number One secretly being an augment or the whole thing about Doctor M'benga hiding his daughter in the transporter buffer. Those plot points felt like they both came out of left field. I was like "D'wah? What?"
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From what i can glean - Number One/Una being an Illyrian has actually been a thing in the canon for a while. And Illyrians seem to be a pretty distinct thing from Human-Augments, though i'm honestly unsure what the difference actually is for practical purposes. This is the bit i was recknoning would piss people off. Also they did need tohave a reason for M'benga to get demoted, we just found it out early!
Also yes Hemmer just being Ah yeah, need light, i know, let's transporter some mantle of the planet here, that'll do. is fucking great
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I'm suddenly filled with thoughts of a spinoff series.
Oops All Doctors.
A ship captained by an Emergency Command Hologram, with an Emergency Executive Officer Hologram as second in command, an Emergency Engineering Hologram as chief engineer, Emergency Tactical Hologram as head of security, medical headed up by our beloved Emergency Medical Hologram, constantly bickering with the Emergency Science Hologram over in the science wing.
EDIT: And of course, we can't forget the Emergency Crewman Holograms milling the halls.
EDIT EDIT: To add to this, all roles who are not on the ship proper will be played by Jeffrey Combs. Because fuck it.
The Bajorans - or more specifically the Bajoran religion - is one thing that really disappoints me from DS9. Such wasted potential.
It was Star Trek's first take on alien religion. But more than that, it was a truly alien religion. Imagine a religion where you have clear, concrete, unambiguous proof that your gods exist through stones that allow you to directly and personally interact with them. That would be a religion fundamentally different from any human one at its very core, a religion for which notions of faith or belief are irrelevant. How different a religion, a society, a priesthood would that be? On top of that, their prophecized messiah just arrived and sits in an office nearby and you can take an appointment to meet up for coffee, and also he found the entrance to the realm of their gods which again is a real physical realm people can (and routinely do) travel through and which contains their real physical gods which people can stop and talk with while they're in there. What kind of insane religious and social upheaval would that cause?
Instead of all that, we ended up with space catholics with a space pope and space demons to exorcise in a cave of literal space hellfire.
This is a common complaint that I see about Trek (as it mostly existed pre-2000's) is that there were no lasting consequences.... and in this case I disagree that's a problem in this case. We had an absolute set of character examinations, with one of the best antagonists in Trek. In a lot of ways, YoH had a lot in common with Equinox, kind of examining a "what if?" of Voyager going a bit wrong. Character exploration and character growth don't have to be tied together. See: Half of O'Briens suffering.
The biggest problem was that it was intentionally designed to be less serialised than DS9, just as more shows were starting to get more serialised. The execs wanted TNG Again, and that's what they got. Looking back, it's easy to see all the Could Have Beens that were missed, but I doubt that if it had turned into the Star Trek Galactica some people have said it should have been, it would have met with widespread approval.
(The irony of people complaining that their new Star Trek is too serialised and rallying behind the more individual SNW shall go unmentioned by me. Except for just then)
One thing that's honestly giving me hope with SNW so far is they dont seem to be afraid to go "...Yeah, we came up with something better". I like the sewing the Jan 6 - > Eugenics -> WW3 stuff togther. It's elegant. Conituinity within a show is important, otherwise it turns into mad-libs, but the idea that a show's canon should remain involiate - especially a scifi show spread over how many fucking decades now? That can piss off. Come up with something better! Retcon things! Go "Yeah, that was dumb, we're ignoring it"
Your shows/books/whatever will be better for it (And want proof? Terry Prachett did this ALL THE TIME)
Also I'm slowly growing convinced that nerd cultures obsession with canon is one of the worst things, so anything that bucks that trend is great
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I'm not talking about no lasting consequences. TNG rarely had those either. Both shows were very episodic with only the occasional plotline running in the background. The problem is there's no sense of short-term consequences either. When you so obviously parade the reset button in front of people, it robs actions of dramatic weight. Even though I know our characters are all gonna survive this episode and so is the ship, you can still generate dramatic tension in the moment. But once you tell me basically straight out that none of this matters, by the way you present the story, none of it is really gonna matter to me.
And beyond that there's not much else there. There is no strong character moments or interesting decisions or whatnot. There's no big dramatic set pieces. There's no point where I really care that much what is going on. It's kinda cool as a what-if but that really only does so much.
A big part of this is I barely care about most of these characters to begin with and I care even less about a version that's going to get reset before the credits.
It's like, I walked away from my TNG rewatch thinking "Man, I wish we'd gotten more Riker episodes. He was great and criminally underused." Voyager I can't think of any character that didn't get a ton of episodes devoted to them (Seven, The Doctor) who I thought the same way about.
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i'm pages late here but Insurrection is a really good episode of TNG, it's just not a great "movie"
It's been said before, but Voyager can largely be characterized by the phrase "missed opportunity."
It's definitely worth a watch, though! And when it hits it hits so good. The Thaw remains one of the best episodes of any Star Trek series.
This part is almost entirely untrue, almost every word of it except the last sentence.... unless you consider:
This part is fair. If you don't buy into the characters at all, then your entire platform suffers, almost regardless of the quality of your storytelling. With that in mind, it explains a lot more about what you've been writing and fair enough.
Perfect example of this (up to disco/Kelvin verse) is Klingons. TNG and DS9 spent a LOT of time after a "retcon" during the movies building relatively consistent canon about the Klingons, to the point that we know more about them than probably any non-human race, and the tapestry built is incredibly rich (if not dumb occasionally, but even IRL we have that problem).
All I want out of the movies is to be really good episodes of the series. So this checks out for me!
I would argue Enterprise dropped the ball hard here to start the decline. All in the name of following up on a throwaway gag from a goofy episode of DS9 to address an issue no one cared about.
Just FYI Disco is in the prime universe not the Kelvin Verse. Also yeah I think the Klingon thing has bounced around so many times people stop caring too much. Worf's answer about how Klingon's look is perfect, "We don't talk about it."
Even when accounting for inflation, the budgets of Trek's 1-6 were pretty low. With modern CGI you can make some really decent looking films on a shoestring budget. I think they should go back to limited budgets. I think someone could make a really compelling Trek movie with a single episode budget from Picard or Discovery.
My one takeaway from this graphic? If Lower Decks goes another five-six seasons, how will they be responsible* for the destruction of Romulus, and the temporal incursion that begets the Kelvin Verse?
* In a butterfly flapping it's wings manner, something small (a swiped commbadge, a missed cargo drop) leads to something bigger, which leads to something bigger still, which leads to disaster. I wouldn't want Boimler directly responsible** by sending a modified photon torpedo into their sun. But something inconsequential that can be tracked forward to that incident, I can definitely see them doing.
** Or maybe I do want that? Maybe that's exactly what I want?
Yeah Klingons are sort of what I mean. Obviously, the Disco version didn't land for most people - so if they just undid it, and no mention why? I would give zero fucks. You tried something, it didn't work, move on
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Really, Discovery-style Trek is basically movie-quality already. The sets are made to look good at 4K, and they're not exactly skimping on the effects. Like, write a stand-alone Discovery/BNW/Picard episode that's an hour and a half to two hours long, using the existing sets, make sure it's comprehensible to non-fans, and I'm not sure what would keep you from just shipping it to theaters.
Boimler wrote a report predicting the early supernova, it's about 3-4 PADDs down on the Captain's desk but she's just not got around to it because there's always a stack of reports on her desk from Boimler and it's usually about a whine in one of the eps conduits or the dolphins owing him some latinum and frankly it's just getting tiresome
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Yes, sorry, I should have been more clear. Both Disco and Kelvin insisted on changing Klingons, for absolutely no good reason.
Battle of The Binary System was effectively a Trek movie that could have stood alone as a prequel movie, at least in quality if not in story.
And the worst sin is that the redesign wasn't even very good. The actors themselves said how hard it was to act under those masks and fake teeth. There is something to be said for just gluing some shit to a dude's forehead and adding some facepaint to blend it in.
Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG. If it had been a good one, the movie would have actually worked.
IMO it's neither good nor notoriously bad, unlike some of the episodes every fan knows by name. It just kind of is. One of those mid-season eps that most people forget unless it's on right now. 103 minutes of warm pudding.
naw, it's a fine. studying a alien world secretly due to their fountain of youth, data somehow gets fucked and his right or wrong subroutine kicks in, he unmasks the federation, hyjinks ensue
perfect tng premise
I mean, I'd still call one of those bad. It's not like Code of Honor or some shit. It's just a kinda boring and unmemorable execution of what could have been an interesting idea in the hands of better writers.
I strongly disagree. I don't know what else you could want from a TNG episode. Sketchy admiral teaming up with bad guy aliens to screw over some poor planet for terrible reasons. You get some good Picard speeches to show the best in humanity and pull the vague allegory to a satisfying conclusion. A lot of great stuff there.
This is a very convincing argument.
Agreed on all counts except one: Anthony Zerbe is the platonic ideal of the sketchy Admiral; he’s so tried-and-true at playing complete slimes, and it’s a delight to see Star Trek leverage that.
Also just some nice Sci-Fi Horror vibes and other great bits. I'm really enjoying how while they're going Episodic, they're also doing each episode as a character(s) piece. Excellent and economical writing. Also, more Hemmer being excellent and also hilariously terrifying.
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Also, Ensign Lance looks like Timothee Chalamet's stunt double.
The super-tanned roommates of Uhura made me crack up.
I'm not sure I'm fond of Number One secretly being an augment or the whole thing about Doctor M'benga hiding his daughter in the transporter buffer. Those plot points felt like they both came out of left field. I was like "D'wah? What?"
Also yes Hemmer just being Ah yeah, need light, i know, let's transporter some mantle of the planet here, that'll do. is fucking great
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