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The Russian-Ukrainian War Is Ongoing

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    So, for the people in the thread with experience with artillery/explosions, the article has a photo of the inside of the building with the bodies blurred. Any thoughts on how large the blast could be in an enclosed space while still leaving all those beds upright and oriented in the same direction?

    As a former artillerist and former volunteer fireman. I can not really make sense of what has happened there.

    At some point there was a fire somewhere on the right, which spread along the roof and then ignited something along the left wall which in turn burnt for a while and scorched the wall&paint. The temperatures inside the building did not get very hot, you can see that while the mattresses have ignited the paint on the beds is only scorched where it was exposed to direct fire from the mattresses itself (so the mattresses were probably ignited by burning insulation dropping down from the roof).

    If there was an explosion it happened behind the camera, but if there was a blast it either happened very far behind the camera or there was a very limited blast without much of a shrapnel lining (corrugated steel tends to look like swiss cheese if there was a nearby shell explosion). There are some holes in the ceiling nearest the wall, but fire accelerates rustholes. So if there was a rustpatch on the roof before a fire it would create a hole, and it makes sense that there are holes where the fire was the hottest but it does not make sense that shrapnel would be concentrated in the corners.

    Also, the way the roof has collapsed looks weird to me, but then I'm used to seeing the effect from fire and explosives on brick&concrete buildings. Warehouses&factories hit by artillery (generally when I've seen corrugated steel buildings hit by artillery or fire) they were either much lighter damaged or absolutely destroyed.

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    I've been applying the 'Daily Mail rule' to what the Russian authorities say: Unless and until it's confirmed by one or more credible independent sources, it's a lie.

    My rule is "Didn't Read Don't Care".

  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular

    Spokeswoman for Donetsk People’s Republic tells Russian military TV that 50 Ukrainian POWs from Azov, kept in a separate barrack, were killed in the Olenivka strike and many more injured. But, what a happy coincidence, none of the Russian guards were killed or injured. 🤔

    Video is of the Spokeswoman for the DPR, a rump state created and backed by Russia.

    Tweeter is Yaroslav Trofimov, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent for the Wall Street Journal

  • Snake GandhiSnake Gandhi Des Moines, IARegistered User regular
    I'm not sure anyone was asking Russia to find new war crimes to commit, but I guess they like to surprise folks.

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    I mean, "Russia did it" was the baseline assumption, but nice of them to confirm it like that.

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
  • This content has been removed.

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    So, for the people in the thread with experience with artillery/explosions, the article has a photo of the inside of the building with the bodies blurred. Any thoughts on how large the blast could be in an enclosed space while still leaving all those beds upright and oriented in the same direction?

    As a former artillerist and former volunteer fireman. I can not really make sense of what has happened there.

    At some point there was a fire somewhere on the right, which spread along the roof and then ignited someone along the left wall. The temperatures inside the building did not get very hot, you can see that while the mattresses have ignited the paint on the beds is only scorched where it was exposed to direct fire from the mattresses itself (so the mattresses were probably ignited by burning insulation dropping down from the roof).

    If there was an explosion it happened behind the camera, but if there was a blast it either happened very far behind the camera or there was a very limited blast without much of a shrapnel lining (corrugated steel tends to look like swiss cheese if there was a nearby shell explosion). There are some holes in the ceiling nearest the wall, but fire accelerates rustholes. So if there was a rustpatch on the roof before a fire it would create a hole, and it makes sense that there are holes where the fire was the hottest but it does not make sense that shrapnel would be concentrated in the corners.

    Also, the way the roof has collapsed looks weird to me, but then I'm used to seeing the effect from fire and explosives on brick&concrete buildings. Warehouses&factories hit by artillery (generally when I've seen corrugated steel buildings hit by artillery or fire) they were either much lighter damaged or absolutely destroyed.

    Thank you for the explanation. The temperature thing makes sense, but also surprises me a little because the first photos I saw weren’t censored; the bodies look like they were caught in a house fire. I don’t know a lot about explosions, but I’m guessing that is not what you’d expect from 200lbs tnt?

    There was a fire there (by whatever means it was ignited). And if someone was for example killed by individual shrapnel hitting something important they would have bled out and then been burnt in a fire.

    Spoiler contains Fiendishrabbit talking about the slightly more gruesome aspects of fire:
    One thing I can say however is that there were no efforts to put out the fire (everything looks incredibly dry, while if there had been efforts to put out the fire you would have seen puddles/mud everywhere), and while paint requires some 300+ degrees C to burn a human body only needs about 170 degrees C to crisp up (especially if the fire is allowed to burn for a few hours), although it takes much higher than that to burn bones or cause the muscles to really hunch up. At some point around 230-ish degrees C the human body will start to create its own fuel, fat mostly, so that it can burn hotter than the surrounding area. Although that's usually a case with people who are at least a bit overweight

    P.S: A M31 warhead does not contain 200lbs of TNT. That "fact" is New York Times being idiots. It contains a 200lbs warhead (slightly smaller one for the extended range version), but of that warhead only 51lbs is PBXN-109 explosive filler (equivalent to about 15-20% more TNT), the rest is fuze and fragmentation lining.

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • This content has been removed.

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    A theory I saw going around was that the bodies were of prisoners they'd already killed and the fire was just to cover it up. I doubt we'll ever get an investigation to find out for sure though.

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    The main reason I suspect it wasn’t Ukraine is because frankly I think if Ukraine made that mistake they’d admit it, because it’s still the Russians fault this is all happening, and people would understand Ukrainians making a mistake and killing other Ukrainians as a tragic outcome of russias aggression.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    The main reason I suspect it wasn’t Ukraine is because frankly I think if Ukraine made that mistake they’d admit it, because it’s still the Russians fault this is all happening, and people would understand Ukrainians making a mistake and killing other Ukrainians as a tragic outcome of russias aggression.

    The biggest thing that makes me suspect that it wasn't them is that the munitions that the Ukrainians are getting would be more explosive/fragmentary then incendiary; like they're using these things to take out command core and Ammo dumps and fire isn't nearly a efficient for that kind of thing.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I also just don't expect ukraine to fire on a prison camp. Like they have the intel they'd know what that place is.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    maraji wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    btw the barbaric psychpath mentioned a few posts above?
    he's being memed in russian social media channels
    As a positive role model

    Ah, he's getting the Lt Calley treatment.

    At least Calley got a military trial and conviction before the jingoism/nationalism/racism overturned it.

    And from what I remember the military reaction to the case being overturned was to be distinctly cold towards Calley.

    Making it clear they'll obey orders but that they hate that shitlord.

    I live in Columbus, GA, where he moved and man, the amount of people here who take up for him and "what a nice guy he is" is pathetic.

    asxcjbppb2eo.jpg
  • cckerberoscckerberos Registered User regular
    So, after a saga comparable to buying a PS5, involving queues, dds attacks, and multiple website changes, I finally managed to receive a set of the Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself stamps. Only for Ukraine to immediately release the next in the series:

    r2c0tso3d980.png

    (Still no word on the order I placed with them 5 hours before the Russian invasion, though).

    cckerberos.png
  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    I also just don't expect ukraine to fire on a prison camp. Like they have the intel they'd know what that place is.

    Yeah Ukraine may lack a lot of things (aircraft, SAMs, anti-ship missiles etc) but detailed intel on exactly what they're using their precision munitions on is not one of them.

    Plus, if it had been Ukraine that did it, Russia would be saying the prison camp spontaneously exploded in a bizarre accident. Anyone with half a brain is going to know Russia did it, so Russia blaming Ukraine is just some textbook propaganda for their TV channels and a giant "yeah we did it but we have nukes so what are you going to do about it?" to everyone else.

  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Wouldn't an incendiary round have been far hotter? If it just kind of sets something on fire, you might as well have just used an arrow lit on fire?

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson

    Steam: Korvalain
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    I'm not gonna lean into the details.

    If these are the Ukrainian troops that surrendered a month or two ago it's a clear Geneva Convention violation they were held in an active combat zone.

    Anything else is irrelevant, Russia has a responsibility to move them out of the war zone once they surrendered and it's another war crime to add to the list.

    Edit - this is mostly to prevent using POWs as human shields. And partially to ensure fair treatment. But Russia fuck Russia.

    zagdrob on
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lean into the details.

    If these are the Ukrainian troops that surrendered a month or two ago it's a clear Geneva Convention violation they were held in an active combat zone.

    Anything else is irrelevant, Russia has a responsibility to move them out of the war zone once they surrendered and it's another war crime to add to the list.

    I think that's the point of claiming it was HIMARS?

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson

    Steam: Korvalain
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm not gonna lean into the details.

    If these are the Ukrainian troops that surrendered a month or two ago it's a clear Geneva Convention violation they were held in an active combat zone.

    Anything else is irrelevant, Russia has a responsibility to move them out of the war zone once they surrendered and it's another war crime to add to the list.

    I think that's the point of claiming it was HIMARS?

    Doesnt matter though. If Russia keeps them in the combat zone it's a failure of Russia caring for POWs.

    Which is of course a joke and everyone knows it. But still one to add to the list.

  • hiraethhiraeth SpaceRegistered User regular
    Finished reading the Yale paper (link here again) it's about 70 pages of reading and I thought I'd try a quick summary of what's covered for those who don't want to slog through it all. There's definitely a lot of juicy information about history and who owns what, and also more informational breakdown of the statistics and what they doing to affect them, definitely worth a read if you like that sort of stuff, along with many sources often linked in information quoted below. Anyways here goes.

    Natural Gas
    83% goes to Europe
    2% goes to China

    There is no inter-connectivity between the pipelines, it cannot be shunted over to there.
    Those pipelines cannot replace exports due to capacity even if they could.
    On top of that, there is quite a staggering difference between Russia’s LNG export capacity and its piped gas exports – two of the LNG facilities connected to the Western Siberian gas grid – Yamal and Vysotsk – can export an equivalent of about 25 bcm. Total Russian natural gas exports to Europe amounted to 170 bcm, with 15 bcm being delivered in the form of LNG. Thus, from a technical standpoint, it remains impossible to ship the remaining amount of gas to China or India without the costly and time- consuming construction of a Trans-Siberian interconnecting pipeline.

    China built one pipeline, however:
    - China doesn't want to pay European prices for Gas.
    - China doesn't trust Russias ability to build and maintain additional ones themselves, especially now.
    - China has apparent untapped gas reserves.

    The 'other' %'s mainly go to post soviet states, which are experiencing a breakdown in relations eg Kazakhstan

    Their current gas field yields are dropping and their reliance on outside skills and technology means drilling more difficult locations questionable.

    Oil
    53% goes to Europe
    20% to China
    Rest mostly goes to other Asian destinations

    Oil makes up 45% of revenue

    Their oil fields yields are slowing even faster and reaching end of life, and again are reliant on outside skills and tech to open new ones which are more difficult to reach.

    China is buying at a $35 discount.
    It takes 35 days travel to ship to East Asia as opposed to 2-7 days for entirety of Europe, and even 18 for the US

    Energy revenue represents 60%~ of total Russian government revenue
    In fact, only after a long and unexplained delay did the Kremlin finally disclose that
    total oil and gas revenues dropped by more than half in May from prior months, by the Kremlin’s
    own numbers – along with the declaration that the Kremlin would cease releasing any new oil and
    gas revenues from that point on

    China and 'the pivot the East'
    China is Russias largest import trade origin, by a large scale, equal to the other 4 in the top 5 combined.
    However Russia is nowhere near equal, they are 11th on destinations out of China. Russia is not as important to China as China is to Russia.
    In fact, according to the most recent monthly releases from the Customs General
    Administration of China, which maintains detailed Chinese trade data with detailed
    breakdowns of exports to individual trade partners, Chinese exports to Russia plummeted by
    50% from the start of the year to April, falling from over $8 billion monthly at the end of
    2021 to under $4 billion in April.

    The US is Chinas largest export destination at over 500 Billion in goods and services, compared to 72 to Russia. The EU and UK combined look to be close to the US, plus Japan, South Korea, Canada, Australia on top of that. Thus the Idea that Chinese companies will stand up and abandon them to export to Russia risking sanctions on themselves is not probable, they point to examples such as Huawei.

    Internal
    There's little evidence anything here is working, they are cannibalizing planes to keep others flying. Using chips from other sources for military.
    In desperation, Putin has effectively legalized grey market and intellectual property
    infringement – and at times has outright encouraged parallel imports. Putin declared the
    goods of certain companies exempt from trademark laws, including electronic components
    from manufacturers such as Cisco, Intel, Motorola, and Siemens as well as industrial goods
    such as paper, textiles, ceramics, locomotives, and nuclear reactors.

    :#

    Official inflation is 20%. Some sectors it is up to 60%.
    Retail sales and consumer spending is down 20%.
    Nearly all foreign car companies have left, and Russias own production is down 75% as of May.
    Even at these minimal production levels, significant shortcuts are being taken. Russia went
    so far as to suspend car production safety requirements in domestic automobile
    manufacturing, and many of the cars being manufactured post-invasion now lack such
    essentials as airbags and anti-lock brakes. Likewise, within aerospace, even though the state
    aviation authority Rosaviatsia issued production certificates to five Russian companies
    authorizing them to make bootleg parts for aircraft, the manufacturers are apparently
    struggling to produce anything beyond minor cabin items such as seats and galley equipment,
    with sensitive flight-critical components still far off.

    There are many more statistics covered, all of it is bad and in the negative.

    The Exodus
    1000 global companies left
    They made up 40% of Russias GDP
    Their investments made up 600 billion
    1million were employed by them

    500k have fled Russia
    50% were highly educated/skilled such as tech
    15k of those with 30million+ $ have left

    Economy
    They are pumping out unsustainable levels of spending and lending, using up their reserves and throwing money at everyone
    By the Central Bank of Russia’s own data releases, the Russian money supply – M2, which includes
    cash, checking deposits, and cash-convertible proxies of store-holders of value – ballooned
    by nearly two times from the start of the year through June

    And it's not working
    In fact, despite the permissive credit environment fostered by the Kremlin and state subsidization of various forms of loans including mortgages and business loans, loans originated to small and medium businesses
    have actually fallen dramatically in spite of these subsidies.

    Not even Russians want Russian investments
    One would think that if any group of investors might be bullish about owning Russian equities
    right now, it might be Russians themselves – but this is not the case. The benchmark Russian
    equity index, the MOEX Russia Index (formerly known as the MICEX Russia Index), is one
    of the single worst performers of any major country index in the entire world this year, falling
    nearly ~50% since the start of the invasion.
    One expert economist, Timothy Ash, estimated that total Russian financial market losses on assets held by locals come out to $200-$300 billion amidst this financial carnage.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    Official inflation is 20%. Some sectors it is up to 60%.
    Retail sales and consumer spending is down 20%.

    So... the average Russian is spending 20% less on retail and consumer goods that cost 20+% more. Is that implying that they're purchasing about 40% less good and services?

    With respect to the rest:

    Jesus fuck that's an absolutely dire picture painted there. And mark you this is what it's like after no more than 5 months of the sanction regime, of which only ~3 months have been the full suite. Russia is not going to be a happy place come winter if they don't radically change the situation.

    It's also worth noting that Russia has lost 10x as many people to emigration as they have to military casualties.

    Also "15k of those with 30million+ $ have left" - that implies a $450 billion capital outflow, although in practice I suspect that a significant fraction of illiquid assets had to be left behind.

    Even in a best case no sanctions corruption magically reduced to minimal levels scenario and climate change not being as bad as we're afraid it will be, it would take Russia a decade to recover from this. If Putin keeps on with his madness, it's going to be a generation at least before they get back to where they were.

    V1m on
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Further thoughts on the above:

    Remember that many of those figures were only up to the end of May, so those ones only show the effect of the first 2 waves of sanctions, and only the first 3 months. Now I suppose there's a universe where 2 more months of those sanctions plus the even harsher 3rd wave didn't make things worse faster, but I don't think it's this one. I'll bet that emigration outflow didn't stop at 500,000 people, for a start.

    Now it's rather clearer why Putin pushed the "EVERYONE WITH EVERYTHING" campaign in June/July and they've been using irreplaceable naval cruise missiles to blow up primary schools and so on. He needs to push Ukraine to give some kind of deal, anything that doesn't look like a total defeat, something, and soon.

    It's going to be a bad, cold winter for us in the UK and Europe. I hope you've all been stocking up on quilts and blankets and warm clothing. Open your windows and make sure that everything is ventilated and dry, and give your kitchen and bathroom a dousing with anti-mold spray now, because you sure aren't going to want to be opening them much when the weather turns, with what we're paying for domestic energy. Make sure you've got a good amount of shelf stable food stashed away, especially if it's stuff you particularly like and don't want to do without: Pasta, beans, rice, oil, spices, tinned fish, preserves, sugar, chocolate, toilet paper, basic medicines, supplements, and of course a few bottles of liquor because you're prolly going to need em this winter.


    But. It's going to be worse in for the ordinary people in Russia. Considerably worse. Wolf time.

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    To follow up on the economic stuff a bit, an auto workers union recently posted an open letter. According to them they're only still employed by spending their time painting the factory and mowing the grass, and the company plans to switch to making electric vehicles which the union estimates will only sell 1k cars a year. And that won't happen til the end of 2023 if everything goes according to plan.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Further thoughts on the above:

    Remember that many of those figures were only up to the end of May, so those ones only show the effect of the first 2 waves of sanctions, and only the first 3 months. Now I suppose there's a universe where 2 more months of those sanctions plus the even harsher 3rd wave didn't make things worse faster, but I don't think it's this one. I'll bet that emigration outflow didn't stop at 500,000 people, for a start.

    Now it's rather clearer why Putin pushed the "EVERYONE WITH EVERYTHING" campaign in June/July and they've been using irreplaceable naval cruise missiles to blow up primary schools and so on. He needs to push Ukraine to give some kind of deal, anything that doesn't look like a total defeat, something, and soon.

    It's going to be a bad, cold winter for us in the UK and Europe. I hope you've all been stocking up on quilts and blankets and warm clothing. Open your windows and make sure that everything is ventilated and dry, and give your kitchen and bathroom a dousing with anti-mold spray now, because you sure aren't going to want to be opening them much when the weather turns, with what we're paying for domestic energy. Make sure you've got a good amount of shelf stable food stashed away, especially if it's stuff you particularly like and don't want to do without: Pasta, beans, rice, oil, spices, tinned fish, preserves, sugar, chocolate, toilet paper, basic medicines, supplements, and of course a few bottles of liquor because you're prolly going to need em this winter.


    But. It's going to be worse in for the ordinary people in Russia. Considerably worse. Wolf time.

    The US is increasing their LNG exports to UK and EU. I don’t know by how much and if that’s going to be enough, or what the pricing of that looks like.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    hiraeth wrote: »
    Finished reading the Yale paper (link here again) it's about 70 pages of reading and I thought I'd try a quick summary of what's covered for those who don't want to slog through it all. There's definitely a lot of juicy information about history and who owns what, and also more informational breakdown of the statistics and what they doing to affect them, definitely worth a read if you like that sort of stuff, along with many sources often linked in information quoted below. Anyways here goes.

    Natural Gas
    83% goes to Europe
    2% goes to China

    There is no inter-connectivity between the pipelines, it cannot be shunted over to there.
    Those pipelines cannot replace exports due to capacity even if they could.
    On top of that, there is quite a staggering difference between Russia’s LNG export capacity and its piped gas exports – two of the LNG facilities connected to the Western Siberian gas grid – Yamal and Vysotsk – can export an equivalent of about 25 bcm. Total Russian natural gas exports to Europe amounted to 170 bcm, with 15 bcm being delivered in the form of LNG. Thus, from a technical standpoint, it remains impossible to ship the remaining amount of gas to China or India without the costly and time- consuming construction of a Trans-Siberian interconnecting pipeline.

    China built one pipeline, however:
    - China doesn't want to pay European prices for Gas.
    - China doesn't trust Russias ability to build and maintain additional ones themselves, especially now.
    - China has apparent untapped gas reserves.

    The 'other' %'s mainly go to post soviet states, which are experiencing a breakdown in relations eg Kazakhstan

    Their current gas field yields are dropping and their reliance on outside skills and technology means drilling more difficult locations questionable.

    Oil
    53% goes to Europe
    20% to China
    Rest mostly goes to other Asian destinations

    Oil makes up 45% of revenue

    Their oil fields yields are slowing even faster and reaching end of life, and again are reliant on outside skills and tech to open new ones which are more difficult to reach.

    China is buying at a $35 discount.
    It takes 35 days travel to ship to East Asia as opposed to 2-7 days for entirety of Europe, and even 18 for the US

    Energy revenue represents 60%~ of total Russian government revenue
    In fact, only after a long and unexplained delay did the Kremlin finally disclose that
    total oil and gas revenues dropped by more than half in May from prior months, by the Kremlin’s
    own numbers – along with the declaration that the Kremlin would cease releasing any new oil and
    gas revenues from that point on

    China and 'the pivot the East'
    China is Russias largest import trade origin, by a large scale, equal to the other 4 in the top 5 combined.
    However Russia is nowhere near equal, they are 11th on destinations out of China. Russia is not as important to China as China is to Russia.
    In fact, according to the most recent monthly releases from the Customs General
    Administration of China, which maintains detailed Chinese trade data with detailed
    breakdowns of exports to individual trade partners, Chinese exports to Russia plummeted by
    50% from the start of the year to April, falling from over $8 billion monthly at the end of
    2021 to under $4 billion in April.

    The US is Chinas largest export destination at over 500 Billion in goods and services, compared to 72 to Russia. The EU and UK combined look to be close to the US, plus Japan, South Korea, Canada, Australia on top of that. Thus the Idea that Chinese companies will stand up and abandon them to export to Russia risking sanctions on themselves is not probable, they point to examples such as Huawei.

    Internal
    There's little evidence anything here is working, they are cannibalizing planes to keep others flying. Using chips from other sources for military.
    In desperation, Putin has effectively legalized grey market and intellectual property
    infringement – and at times has outright encouraged parallel imports. Putin declared the
    goods of certain companies exempt from trademark laws, including electronic components
    from manufacturers such as Cisco, Intel, Motorola, and Siemens as well as industrial goods
    such as paper, textiles, ceramics, locomotives, and nuclear reactors.

    :#

    Official inflation is 20%. Some sectors it is up to 60%.
    Retail sales and consumer spending is down 20%.
    Nearly all foreign car companies have left, and Russias own production is down 75% as of May.
    Even at these minimal production levels, significant shortcuts are being taken. Russia went
    so far as to suspend car production safety requirements in domestic automobile
    manufacturing, and many of the cars being manufactured post-invasion now lack such
    essentials as airbags and anti-lock brakes. Likewise, within aerospace, even though the state
    aviation authority Rosaviatsia issued production certificates to five Russian companies
    authorizing them to make bootleg parts for aircraft, the manufacturers are apparently
    struggling to produce anything beyond minor cabin items such as seats and galley equipment,
    with sensitive flight-critical components still far off.

    There are many more statistics covered, all of it is bad and in the negative.

    The Exodus
    1000 global companies left
    They made up 40% of Russias GDP
    Their investments made up 600 billion
    1million were employed by them

    500k have fled Russia
    50% were highly educated/skilled such as tech
    15k of those with 30million+ $ have left

    Economy
    They are pumping out unsustainable levels of spending and lending, using up their reserves and throwing money at everyone
    By the Central Bank of Russia’s own data releases, the Russian money supply – M2, which includes
    cash, checking deposits, and cash-convertible proxies of store-holders of value – ballooned
    by nearly two times from the start of the year through June

    And it's not working
    In fact, despite the permissive credit environment fostered by the Kremlin and state subsidization of various forms of loans including mortgages and business loans, loans originated to small and medium businesses
    have actually fallen dramatically in spite of these subsidies.

    Not even Russians want Russian investments
    One would think that if any group of investors might be bullish about owning Russian equities
    right now, it might be Russians themselves – but this is not the case. The benchmark Russian
    equity index, the MOEX Russia Index (formerly known as the MICEX Russia Index), is one
    of the single worst performers of any major country index in the entire world this year, falling
    nearly ~50% since the start of the invasion.
    One expert economist, Timothy Ash, estimated that total Russian financial market losses on assets held by locals come out to $200-$300 billion amidst this financial carnage.

    It's almost like disconnecting yourself from the global economy for stupid and unpopular reasons when your primary economic focus is exporting natural resources is catastrophically stupid.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Further thoughts on the above:

    Remember that many of those figures were only up to the end of May, so those ones only show the effect of the first 2 waves of sanctions, and only the first 3 months. Now I suppose there's a universe where 2 more months of those sanctions plus the even harsher 3rd wave didn't make things worse faster, but I don't think it's this one. I'll bet that emigration outflow didn't stop at 500,000 people, for a start.

    Now it's rather clearer why Putin pushed the "EVERYONE WITH EVERYTHING" campaign in June/July and they've been using irreplaceable naval cruise missiles to blow up primary schools and so on. He needs to push Ukraine to give some kind of deal, anything that doesn't look like a total defeat, something, and soon.

    It's going to be a bad, cold winter for us in the UK and Europe. I hope you've all been stocking up on quilts and blankets and warm clothing. Open your windows and make sure that everything is ventilated and dry, and give your kitchen and bathroom a dousing with anti-mold spray now, because you sure aren't going to want to be opening them much when the weather turns, with what we're paying for domestic energy. Make sure you've got a good amount of shelf stable food stashed away, especially if it's stuff you particularly like and don't want to do without: Pasta, beans, rice, oil, spices, tinned fish, preserves, sugar, chocolate, toilet paper, basic medicines, supplements, and of course a few bottles of liquor because you're prolly going to need em this winter.


    But. It's going to be worse in for the ordinary people in Russia. Considerably worse. Wolf time.

    The US is increasing their LNG exports to UK and EU. I don’t know by how much and if that’s going to be enough, or what the pricing of that looks like.

    It won't be enough but some is better than none.

    I have gas heating. I have bought electric blankets to fit on my chairs and bed; 50 watts of 60x90cm heat pad is a very efficient way of warming V1m directly compared to running multiple radiators to warm the whole property.

  • CrazyPCrazyP Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Even in a best case no sanctions corruption magically reduced to minimal levels scenario and climate change not being as bad as we're afraid it will be, it would take Russia a decade to recover from this. If Putin keeps on with his madness, it's going to be a generation at least before they get back to where they were.
    Somebody here is very optimistic, I see. Have been following industry reports since March, and yeah - July-August is when technology here starts breaking down,due to lack of parts or replacements. And Putin somehow is super sure he gets away with this, the moment he does referendums in occupied territories. Like we had been fed ever changing dates of referendums for a long time, but looks like this time they are really serious (not that it change anything, this aint like Crimean crisis at all).

    Speaking of Putin
    We are assisting people of Donbass with our "special operation", but sadly it comes at cost of huge losses to locals, with destruction... We need to make sure they will go through winter in humane conditions
    The gist of things: certificates that can be exchanged for a new home in Donbass after it gets build or 6000 rubles per square meter for repairs of broken home. I have no idea how you'll rebuilt it before freezing temperatures come
    http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/69072

    Speaking of locals, in Kherson people are already looking forward to upcoming liberation, the region was not hit much during war, but nearly all businesses had effectively closed, at least it is agrarian area, so people have their own produce to it, or to take on sales run to Crimea. Russian soldiers are not so fortunate - occasionally they beg locals to buy them food from market, because they have literally no money. And apparently Russian army has started raiding local homes in search of their own deserters
    https://meduza.io/feature/2022/07/29/my-znaem-nas-osvobodyat

    Aaand, Deputy Head of Southern Military District has been arrested for embezzlement, he is going to see trial at August 1th. Well, looks like after defense contractors time has come for generals
    https://www.rbc.ru/politics/29/07/2022/62e3e62e9a794749f2bf5b1c

    Eh, FSB again with other group of spies arrested, seems they finally started going with their own PR. This time "spies" from Ukraine wanted to blow up a bus station in Lipetsk. I just want to facepalm here, but this is not all! Aside from home made explosives, they've had in their possessions phones with video of some Ukrainian soldiers doing shooting drill at secret boot camp ran by foreign officers they've confessed to attended, and had contacts in the phone-book saved as "Right Sector" - the far right Ukrainian political party and long standing boogeymen here.
    Here is video on Telegram channel of Russian propaganda media
    https://t.me/rian_ru/172591

    Gazprom stopped gas supply to Latvia, claiming "break rules by Latvia", no comment on which, guess goverment really wants to rung Gazprom and itself into the ground
    Source: oficial telegran channel of Gazprom
    https://t.me/gazprom/838

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The one thing I didn't see in the cliffs notes from your posts is any assessment of russia/India which seems to be the new hotness for the Russophiles for a pivot on natural gas... which I've pointed out a few problems with.
    1. russia doesn't border India and the use either has to loop continents or build a pipeline (We'll put a pin in that pipeline for now)
    2. The Baltic and Black sea are effectively closed to russia as shipping points.
    3. China has control over a *lot* of the shipping ports throughout the Indian ocean and south pacific which would straight up refuse russian oil/NG shipments to India due to the fact that India is their major rival for control over the continent and has no reason to allow russia to pursue trade with them through their territory.
    4. Remember that pipeline I was talking about? In order to run a pipeline through to the border of India via the most direct route (not even major cities or such, just the border) You need to run a line through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, the foothills of the Himalayas and Pakistan... all of whom are going to want a cut of that... and some of whom will refuse to co-operate because fuck "that guy" (IE a lot of these countries are likely to refuse to co-operate as part of a whole).
    5. In theory they could go through china but the only reason that china might greenlight this is to watch a bunch of poor bastards trying to build a pipeline going over the Himalayas before shutting it down because why in the fuck would china toss India or russia a bone?
    6. "Ok, what about an indirect route?" Ok, sure lets look at the other possibility: running a line through Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and from there... pushing the line 12 miles out to sea and running it around Pakistan's territorial waters. Again everyone there is going to be looking for a cut of this (Including Iran who are probably wondering why they're supposed to be helping russia with exporting fossil fuels given their own problems with this) with no actual investment on their part.
    7. Much like with a china pivot the infrastucture to do this kind of a shift simply doesn't exist on a serious level.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Further thoughts on the above:

    Remember that many of those figures were only up to the end of May, so those ones only show the effect of the first 2 waves of sanctions, and only the first 3 months. Now I suppose there's a universe where 2 more months of those sanctions plus the even harsher 3rd wave didn't make things worse faster, but I don't think it's this one. I'll bet that emigration outflow didn't stop at 500,000 people, for a start.

    Now it's rather clearer why Putin pushed the "EVERYONE WITH EVERYTHING" campaign in June/July and they've been using irreplaceable naval cruise missiles to blow up primary schools and so on. He needs to push Ukraine to give some kind of deal, anything that doesn't look like a total defeat, something, and soon.

    It's going to be a bad, cold winter for us in the UK and Europe. I hope you've all been stocking up on quilts and blankets and warm clothing. Open your windows and make sure that everything is ventilated and dry, and give your kitchen and bathroom a dousing with anti-mold spray now, because you sure aren't going to want to be opening them much when the weather turns, with what we're paying for domestic energy. Make sure you've got a good amount of shelf stable food stashed away, especially if it's stuff you particularly like and don't want to do without: Pasta, beans, rice, oil, spices, tinned fish, preserves, sugar, chocolate, toilet paper, basic medicines, supplements, and of course a few bottles of liquor because you're prolly going to need em this winter.


    But. It's going to be worse in for the ordinary people in Russia. Considerably worse. Wolf time.

    The US is increasing their LNG exports to UK and EU. I don’t know by how much and if that’s going to be enough, or what the pricing of that looks like.

    It won't be enough but some is better than none.

    I have gas heating. I have bought electric blankets to fit on my chairs and bed; 50 watts of 60x90cm heat pad is a very efficient way of warming V1m directly compared to running multiple radiators to warm the whole property.
    A compassionate UK government would help its citizens replace gas furnaces with electric.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    CrazyP wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Even in a best case no sanctions corruption magically reduced to minimal levels scenario and climate change not being as bad as we're afraid it will be, it would take Russia a decade to recover from this. If Putin keeps on with his madness, it's going to be a generation at least before they get back to where they were.
    Somebody here is very optimistic, I see. Have been following industry reports since March, and yeah - July-August is when technology here starts breaking down,due to lack of parts or replacements. And Putin somehow is super sure he gets away with this, the moment he does referendums in occupied territories. Like we had been fed ever changing dates of referendums for a long time, but looks like this time they are really serious (not that it change anything, this aint like Crimean crisis at all).

    Well yes, Putin must act like he believes he's going to get away with this. The moment he admits "I've thrown away Russia's military power and destroyed the economy for nothing except making our country a pariah state" he's a dead man walking.
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The one thing I didn't see in the cliffs notes from your posts is any assessment of russia/India which seems to be the new hotness for the Russophiles for a pivot on natural gas... which I've pointed out a few problems with.
    1. russia doesn't border India and the use either has to loop continents or build a pipeline (We'll put a pin in that pipeline for now)
    2. The Baltic and Black sea are effectively closed to russia as shipping points.
    3. China has control over a *lot* of the shipping ports throughout the Indian ocean and south pacific which would straight up refuse russian oil/NG shipments to India due to the fact that India is their major rival for control over the continent and has no reason to allow russia to pursue trade with them through their territory.
    4. Remember that pipeline I was talking about? In order to run a pipeline through to the border of India via the most direct route (not even major cities or such, just the border) You need to run a line through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, the foothills of the Himalayas and Pakistan... all of whom are going to want a cut of that... and some of whom will refuse to co-operate because fuck "that guy" (IE a lot of these countries are likely to refuse to co-operate as part of a whole).
    5. In theory they could go through china but the only reason that china might greenlight this is to watch a bunch of poor bastards trying to build a pipeline going over the Himalayas before shutting it down because why in the fuck would china toss India or russia a bone?
    6. "Ok, what about an indirect route?" Ok, sure lets look at the other possibility: running a line through Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and from there... pushing the line 12 miles out to sea and running it around Pakistan's territorial waters. Again everyone there is going to be looking for a cut of this (Including Iran who are probably wondering why they're supposed to be helping russia with exporting fossil fuels given their own problems with this) with no actual investment on their part.
    7. Much like with a china pivot the infrastucture to do this kind of a shift simply doesn't exist on a serious level.

    Not to mention the little fact that Russia has just shown that it views energy supplies as a noose around the neck of the customer. I'm sure India is happy to snap up LNG at buyer's market prices to top up their reserves and maybe give their economy a little lift, but they'd be absolute fools to become dependent on it the way Europe let themselves. Likewise China.

    V1m on
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Not to mention that a lot of those countries simply lack the infrastructure needed for construction and upkeep of a project like that, and that's incredibly unlikely to change anytime soon.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    CrazyP wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Even in a best case no sanctions corruption magically reduced to minimal levels scenario and climate change not being as bad as we're afraid it will be, it would take Russia a decade to recover from this. If Putin keeps on with his madness, it's going to be a generation at least before they get back to where they were.
    Somebody here is very optimistic, I see. Have been following industry reports since March, and yeah - July-August is when technology here starts breaking down,due to lack of parts or replacements. And Putin somehow is super sure he gets away with this, the moment he does referendums in occupied territories. Like we had been fed ever changing dates of referendums for a long time, but looks like this time they are really serious (not that it change anything, this aint like Crimean crisis at all).

    Well yes, Putin must act like he believes he's going to get away with this. The moment he admits "I've thrown away Russia's military power and destroyed the economy for nothing except making our country a pariah state" he's a dead man walking.
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The one thing I didn't see in the cliffs notes from your posts is any assessment of russia/India which seems to be the new hotness for the Russophiles for a pivot on natural gas... which I've pointed out a few problems with.
    1. russia doesn't border India and the use either has to loop continents or build a pipeline (We'll put a pin in that pipeline for now)
    2. The Baltic and Black sea are effectively closed to russia as shipping points.
    3. China has control over a *lot* of the shipping ports throughout the Indian ocean and south pacific which would straight up refuse russian oil/NG shipments to India due to the fact that India is their major rival for control over the continent and has no reason to allow russia to pursue trade with them through their territory.
    4. Remember that pipeline I was talking about? In order to run a pipeline through to the border of India via the most direct route (not even major cities or such, just the border) You need to run a line through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, the foothills of the Himalayas and Pakistan... all of whom are going to want a cut of that... and some of whom will refuse to co-operate because fuck "that guy" (IE a lot of these countries are likely to refuse to co-operate as part of a whole).
    5. In theory they could go through china but the only reason that china might greenlight this is to watch a bunch of poor bastards trying to build a pipeline going over the Himalayas before shutting it down because why in the fuck would china toss India or russia a bone?
    6. "Ok, what about an indirect route?" Ok, sure lets look at the other possibility: running a line through Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and from there... pushing the line 12 miles out to sea and running it around Pakistan's territorial waters. Again everyone there is going to be looking for a cut of this (Including Iran who are probably wondering why they're supposed to be helping russia with exporting fossil fuels given their own problems with this) with no actual investment on their part.
    7. Much like with a china pivot the infrastucture to do this kind of a shift simply doesn't exist on a serious level.

    Not to mention the little fact that Russia has just shown that it views energy supplies as a noose around the neck of the customer. I'm sure India is happy to snap up LNG at buyer's market prices to top up their reserves and maybe give their economy a little lift, but they'd be absolute fools to become dependent on it the way Europe let themselves. Likewise China.

    Like heres the thing with trade deals: in order to not be taken advantage of you need to be competetive and that means having a broad base of customers. When you cut out the overwhelming majority of the market out (for whatever reason) then whoever is left is going to have much, much more power at the bargaining table to the point where they are going to inform you of the actual price of your goods.

    Kinda like if you had an action comics #1 with a 10 CGC rating (Effectively the book is in perfect condition; like it just came off the printing press).... but you could only sell it to someone in say... Iqaluit, the capital city of Nunavut.

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Central OhioRegistered User regular
    Yeah Russia isn’t getting a good deal and not just because they’re desperate, but because there’s not a lot of confidence they could even pull off the build at this point

    Basically any other party is going to work with them almost solely because of spite against Europe/US, the economics of any deal are very minor considerations

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Yeah Russia isn’t getting a good deal and not just because they’re desperate, but because there’s not a lot of confidence they could even pull off the build at this point

    Basically any other party is going to work with them almost solely because of spite against Europe/US, the economics of any deal are very minor considerations

    Even there it becomes a real problem since the two countries russia would turn to to make this work (India and china) are pretty deeply integrated into western economies due to how they're major sources of cheap labor for other people's economies and thus can't really jeopardize that for a deal with *russia*.

  • archivistkitsunearchivistkitsune Registered User regular
    The thing many should consider, if they are currently reliant on Russian gas for heating, is that Russia may very well be in a state where much of the export infrastructure for that is now in a state of disrepair and neglect, that will require months or years to fix. Plus, a fair chunk of the technical know how in Russia has left.

    AKA, anyone reliant on Russian gas should have started taking steps to either be on an alternative or reduce their reliance on gas months ago. Still time to minimize the sting and who knows, maybe an upside to shitty climate change is that they won't need as much gas this winter to stay warm. I don't think they are seeing the nonsense the US has seen in winter in regards to climate change (where even though our winters are shorter and we have more warm days, we get a fair number of visits from the polar vortex that really drops things). I mean at this point, anyone that was buying Russian gas in Europe before, probably is going to struggle to be able to buy more, in the unlikely event that sanctions going away overnight, in sufficient amounts for their winter needs.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Oh yeah. India right now is all about the cold pragmatism now and every single concession they give is going to be after one of the sides give up something else first.

    Which, you know, they have good reasons to do so. The US being stupid enough to court Pakistan as an ally despite the fact that they were and are the main backers of the Taliban set the tone for the entire Afghanistan debacle. So sure, oil on the cheap while they still can, all for it, but signing up entirely on one side is not happening for a while.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Oh yeah. India right now is all about the cold pragmatism now and every single concession they give is going to be after one of the sides give up something else first.

    Which, you know, they have good reasons to do so. The US being stupid enough to court Pakistan as an ally despite the fact that they were and are the main backers of the Taliban set the tone for the entire Afghanistan debacle. So sure, oil on the cheap while they still can, all for it, but signing up entirely on one side is not happening for a while.

    Cold pragmatism would be that Bending over a dollar (trade with the west) to pick up a nickle (cheap gas and trade with russia complicated by the realities of getting goods back and forth) is a fools errand.

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  • CrazyPCrazyP Registered User regular
    India has been quietly untangling itself from economic ties to Russia for months now, first Indian companies started leaving market without making big announcements, just suddenly closing, then India decided to cut Russian oil, because "they want oil with less sulfur from now in". My guess is they had decided to stay away from this sh*t, but plan to maybe return much later when stuff calms down, sorta "I am out of here, but do not want to burn bridges just yet"

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