I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I don't think any hates space wizards and swords its just that the best examples of those stories are perfectly mid.. and the worst are oooooh wow..
I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I don't think any hates space wizards and swords its just that the best examples of those stories are perfectly mid.. and the worst are oooooh wow..
But if I want someone trying to make better stories with space wizards and swords, it's exhausting to have to defend wanting 'mid' 'kiddy shit' that serious people have outgrown, like, why cling to this IP about space wizard swordsmen if you think space wizard swordsmen are cringe?
edit: I'll admit, this can be touchy for me as a writer who struggles to write what I intend to without reflexively curtailing all the fun excesses that I personally enjoy.
I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I don't think any hates space wizards and swords its just that the best examples of those stories are perfectly mid.. and the worst are oooooh wow..
Are we not counting the OT here? Because otherwise the best example is Empire Strikes Back, a movie that set the standard every "mid" is judged by, and arguably a high blockbuster movies have been chasing for over 40 years.
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I love swords and wizards, but I'm exhausted with Star Wars and its tiny incestuous universe full of Jedi. This is why Andor was so refreshing — it didn't lean on easy familiarity, and it didn't indulge in shallow fan service. This is something Star Wars has struggled with (or rather, indulged in intentionally, dead-eyed and profit-seeking without a care for quality beyond that).
But I want to be clear: There is absolutely nothing wrong with space wizards and laser swords. It's just the same ones, over and over, trodden so well that they lose that feeling of specialness and magic. Give us a few more series like Andor, building the universe and taking it seriously —because yes, you can take even a goofy setting like Star Wars seriously and do serious things with it! — and then, finally, after patiently building tension, THEN you have a big reveal where a character throws back their cloak and activates a lightsaber. (They'll never be patient about this, let's be real.)
But I want to specifically address this:
I'll admit, this can be touchy for me as a writer who struggles to write what I intend to without reflexively curtailing all the fun excesses that I personally enjoy.
After grad school I had a bit of an identity crisis because I felt really compelled to be a reader and writer who loves the """"literary"""" fiction we studied, who is above genre fiction as anything but diversion, but that was really wrongheaded. Literary fiction is just another genre, and any genre can do the work that a story wants to do — to be enjoyable, to be meaningful, to viciously hammer home a point, to explore an idea, etc. We are getting a wave of genre work that engages cleverly with imperialism, colonialism, and racism right now, and it's also really fun and interesting genre fiction. And the fact that it's fun and exciting makes it a better vehicle for ideas because it connects with more people, maybe people who haven't been exposed to those ideas so much.
The only way to really do the hard work of writing stories is to write what you want to write. If those genre excesses are what drive that fun for you, then write those excesses! They aren't the problem with bad stories. Having a laser sword duel doesn't undermine a story's weight. It's just that the duel should be meaningful and interesting, and it has to connect with the ideas and conflicts in a way that make it feel bigger than just an action scene.
I think this is part of why the OT is still good, even to me, who is not a big star wars fan; even as a silly, often poorly acted space adventure story, there are moments when it connects to something more meaningful. I think about the ending of the OT a lot when considering why so many fantasy stories just have bad endings, because they fail to deliver what the OT did.
If we're honest, the standards for high-minded fiction and silly genre fiction are actually very similar. Intellectual, experimental fiction ends up being a bummer if it isn't also fun. And space operas just aren't as exciting if they aren't animated by some kind of meaningful framework of ideas.
I know it's petty, but I kind of hate that the Star Wars content that ended up being exceptionally well-written and well-directed is something that doesn't have fantasy stuff in it, since now people who feel affronted by the presence of wizards and swords in their space opera about wizards with swords feel vindicated.
I don't think any hates space wizards and swords its just that the best examples of those stories are perfectly mid.. and the worst are oooooh wow..
Are we not counting the OT here? Because otherwise the best example is Empire Strikes Back, a movie that set the standard every "mid" is judged by, and arguably a high blockbuster movies have been chasing for over 40 years.
I wasn't. Empire is a wonderful film and to this day is the best of the OT by a large margin and not one I would consider mid tier. I cant even really compare it to Andor as it is apples and oranges imo. Empire did what it needed to and was elevated by all its pieces from direction, dialogue, acting, cinematography and it did it within the scope of a feature length movie.
I would love to see something longer and more developed dealing with Jedi/Sith/The Force given the same level that we saw with Andor. Andor currently is an anomaly within Star Wars and that level of care with writing, acting, direction etc would be wonderful to be applied to more aspects of Star Wars.
To be clear, I like there being stories like Andor in Star Wars. It's the 'this is what Star Wars should be' thing that I side-eye.
Or like, the way some people seemed prepared to just write the show off instantly if anything fantastical or familiar did show up, mostly in theories around Luthen or Ahsoka's role as Fulcrum. As if the writing or direction would suddenly retroactively be bad if that happened.
edit: I guess I have a deep dread of the possibility of a shift towards grit and mundane while new Star Wars continues to be mediocre at best, learning nothing from the quality of Andor and resulting in like, the Snyderverse equivalent of Star Wars for a few years.
Every single film and show in Disney's Star Wars has had a laser sword or space wizard in it. Every single one. Good or bad.
Until Andor.
Resistance was shit, but I don't think it had any wizards or laser swords.
There was a force-sensitive kid as a minor character and one time they got into it with the First Order trying to collect something from an old Sith Temple, but I think that's it.
+1
Options
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited December 2022
Oh, Kylo Ren showed up in Resistance. Almost made one of his agents shoot herself in the head with her own blaster.
Anyway when I say "Andor is what Star Wars should be" I mean good acting and dialog that goes beyond merely functional.
Shadowen on
+7
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2022
The issue isn't space wizards or space swords, it's how those are used in the setting and the fact that Star Wars is a huge fucking setting and somehow nearly every damn story boils down to space wizards and space swords. When the wizard stuff is good, it's good. When it's bad, it's being used as a crutch. And the material has been used as a crutch a lot of times at this point while we've barely ever gotten to see the universe without any of that.
The Force and lightsabers are signature elements of Star Wars, but Star Wars is anything but just the Force and lightsabers. I don't think for a second that the lack of those things are what made Andor so good, but I definitely think that completely removing them from the show meant removing an easy temptation for lazy writing. And various content makers have had fucking decades to make something as good as Andor while still using the Force and lightsabers and shit. Which they failed to do.
The problem isn't people not wanting Jedi stuff or Jedi stuff being shoved in everything, it's Star Wars being repeatedly handled by individuals with mediocre-to-poor storytelling and cinematic ability.
To be clear, I like there being stories like Andor in Star Wars. It's the 'this is what Star Wars should be' thing that I side-eye.
But Andor is what Star Wars should be: well-done. I understand your points about the setting turning towards the gritty instead of the quality, but at least Andor broke the ground of having real quality cinematic material for Star Wars on a consistent basis. I entirely believe that even the PT could've been amazing, instead of boring, with Andor's level of attention to writing, acting, special effects, sound, everything.
I don't recall Book of Boba Fett having any space wizards or laser swords in it, but it is not what I would call "good".
So, not having those is not the definitive path to quality.
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
Star Wars greatest strength as a franchise is its elasticity. You can tell stories aimed at children, at adults, tales about magic knights or pirates or politics and anything in between. Abandoning that, trying to reduce the franchise to one thing, would be a mistake. Give me stories about laser swords and destiny, but give me ones about scoundrels and revolutionaries, too.
The problem with a lot of Jedi stories is that they're too close to the Skywalker stuff. Set something before/during the OT, and you're stuck filling in holes between the movies. Set it after ROTJ and you're shackled with the ST's poor storytelling choices. It's been that way since the PT in one form or another. Jedi stores that found a way out of that trap, either by setting things far away from the movies (KOTOR, The Ninth Jedi) or narrowing the scope such that it only occasionally touches the main saga (Rebels, Fallen Order), are usually pretty good.
Other than that, it's not hard to write good Jedi/Sith stories. They're sorcerer knights. We've been riffing on knights and sorcerers for thousands of years. Pick a theme and go. Is the story about hunting a magic object, saving somebody/something, or some other quest? Is the protagonist good, bad, or somewhere in between? How are they tested? Who do they meet along the way? Do they succeed or fail? How does that change them? The shit writes itself because we've written it a thousand times. Make it as light or dark, subversive or affirming as you want.
Back to previous posts about Yoda and Obi-Wan being wrong. So they are, but there's interesting interpretation of Yoda that adds a little more depth to it. Maybe Yoda knew the Old Order was wrong and set Luke up to prove it.
Spoiled for Mancingtom's Star Wars Fanwank Power Hour
The Revenge of the Sith novelization, written by Matthew Stover, was line-edited by Lucas. It's a much adaptation than most of its kind, and does a lot with characterization and depth that Lucas' screenplay couldn't match.
There's a very interesting passage when Yoda realizes that he can't defeat Palpatine. It goes:
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years’ intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi— The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the last war.
Stover, Matthew. Revenge of the Sith: Star Wars: Episode III (p. 406). Random House Worlds. Kindle Edition (emphasis added).
With that passage in mind, let's look at Yoda's actions in the Original Trilogy:
In Empire, he is the trickster mentor. He doesn't hold Luke's hand at all. Yoda gives the lesson; whether Luke follows it is up to him. Those lessons are devoid of dogma or tradition. Yoda doesn't cut Luke's like a Padawan—or even tell him what a Padawan is. He tells him "this is the Force, this is how to wield it, this is the light, and that is the dark." Above all, Yoda seems most concerned with impressing upon Luke "memento mori." From hiding his identity when they first meet, to the Luke's failure at the cave, to when Luke finally leaves Dagobah, Yoda wants him to learn humility before anything else. It's true that Yoda cautioned Luke against going to Bespin, but because of any attachment issue. He'd clocked that it was a Sith trap meant to turn Luke. Note that during Luke's first lesson, Yoda said "you must unlearn what you have learned." Could he not have applied that to himself?
In Return, Yoda never explicitly tells Luke to kill Vader, only confront him. He laments that Luke found out the truth before he was ready, implying that he intended to tell him one day. Yoda says outright that he has nothing more to teach Luke and that Luke should pass on what he has learned. Clearly, Yoda was thinking beyond victory over Palpatine and equally focused on what would happen after.
So, here's my interpretation: Yoda knew that the Old Order—his Order—had failed. More than losing a war or duel, it was fundamentally flawed. Defeating a new kind of Sith required a new kind of Jedi. Yoda saw the problem but knew he wasn't the one to solve it. So he trains Luke in the most basic of the basics and sets him off, trusting in the Will of the Force. When he's smiling at the end, it isn't just because Luke did something the Old Jedi could not.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark’s own weapon?
Stover, Matthew. Revenge of the Sith: Star Wars: Episode III (p. 406). Random House Worlds. Kindle Edition.
Yoda's answer was to create a Jedi who fought the Sith with love.
The juxtaposition of a story like Andor and a story like RotJ existing in the same universe is incredibly intriguing to me. I think Luthen would be perturbed to learn that all his hard work and sacrifice was almost for nought because some fucking ghost told a farm boy he’d have to kill his father.
Nobeard on
+10
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
We already have this problem except it's Jedi and lightsabers instead of grimdark. If they went grimdark, they'd just be shifting from an old crutch to a new crutch, and they probably wouldn't even get rid of the old one. The core problem would remain mediocre content creators running things, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Andor itself. And honestly, the Star Wars setting has gotten too lighthearted anyway; it could do with keeping some actual dirt on it like ESB/RotJ had, rather than making every damn scene about who gets to drop the quippiest lines.
I have to admit I find it utterly bizarre that anybody would look at Andor and think it will mean bad things for Star Wars.
The juxtaposition of a story like Andor and a story like RotJ existing in the same universe is incredibly intriguing to me. I think Luthen would be perturbed to learn that all his hard work and sacrifice was almost for nought because some fucking ghost told a farm boy he’d have to kill his father.
Cue 2 minute monologue from Luthen about the ghosts of all the people he had to sacrifice to give the Rebels a chance haunting his dreams, followed by, "wait you're talking about a real fucking ghost?"
The juxtaposition of a story like Andor and a story like RotJ existing in the same universe is incredibly intriguing to me. I think Luthen would be perturbed to learn that all his hard work and sacrifice was almost for nought because some fucking ghost told a farm boy he’d have to kill his father.
Keep in mind that all Luke did was keep Palps and Vader occupied while everyone else did the hard work of either fighting a ground battle to take down the shield or fighting a hopeless battle in space hoping the shield comes down.
That said, Luke is responsible for inspiring Vader to kill the Emperor, so it's quite possible Palpy could have escaped and kept the Empire going for another X decades after losing the second Death Star.
0
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I think something that would do really well for the setting is showing what it's like for the other regular people around when a Jedi shows up and saves the day. Here you are facing overwhelming numbers of stormtroopers, they're between you and escape, and one fucking guy with a laser sword shows up, punches a hole through the lines, then keeps you covered while you escape. Then when you think he's going to be left behind to die, he leaps thirty feet straight up into a troop ship and everybody gets away.
When the Rebels see the actual miraculous stuff a Jedi can pull off, I don't think the likes of Luthen, who carries around a kyber crystal, is going to be skeptical or feel his efforts wasted. If anything, he would take it as a huge sign of hope and that maybe the Rebellion really can bring down the Empire.
Luthian would also be well aware that Darth fucking Vader, dark lord of the sith, is running around lightsabering Jedi who get discovered, so I'm sure he'd be fine with the idea of some of those force idiots working on HIS side.
Luthian would also be well aware that Darth fucking Vader, dark lord of the sith, is running around lightsabering Jedi who get discovered, so I'm sure he'd be fine with the idea of some of those force idiots working on HIS side.
Other than that Vader can sense them, and that they can read you mind, so having anything to do with them would draw the Dark Lord down on your fledging operation like a giant asbestos moth to a tiny flame.
Luthian would also be well aware that Darth fucking Vader, dark lord of the sith, is running around lightsabering Jedi who get discovered, so I'm sure he'd be fine with the idea of some of those force idiots working on HIS side.
Other than that Vader can sense them, and that they can read you mind, so having anything to do with them would draw the Dark Lord down on your fledging operation like a giant asbestos moth to a tiny flame.
I'm pretty sure that was just the connection between Luke and Vader. Even the Emperor was surprised by Luke's presence.
Luthian would also be well aware that Darth fucking Vader, dark lord of the sith, is running around lightsabering Jedi who get discovered, so I'm sure he'd be fine with the idea of some of those force idiots working on HIS side.
Other than that Vader can sense them, and that they can read you mind, so having anything to do with them would draw the Dark Lord down on your fledging operation like a giant asbestos moth to a tiny flame.
I'm pretty sure that was just the connection between Luke and Vader. Even the Emperor was surprised by Luke's presence.
Maybe. But this probably treats the force too much like a diegetic construction. The Emperor was surprised by Luke because the force (of plot) wanted him to be.
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
It's easy to fuck up grimdark too, see Robert "add a scooter race" Rodriguez
DiannaoChong on
+10
Options
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I'm rewatching The Mandalorian. I forgot how strong the start of this is. I'm sad they didn't keep on with the bountry hunting aspect.
But I also wish they'd do more episodes like the second, where he's trying to get his shit back from the Jawas. It's a lot like the sand people sub plot in TBoBF. Seeing these alien cultures that used to just be people in costumes for visual variety is really cool.
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
It's easy to fuck up grimdark too, see Robert "add a scooter race" Rodriguez
I didn't really know anything about Rodriguez until BoBF, during which I got to know all too well just how terrible a director he is.
Then recently, I watched the fuckawful Alita: Battle Angel for the first time. The movie wrapped up and was rolling into the credits and I was thinking to myself "I thought Cameron did this movie, why was abjectly terrible in stupid ways?" Because even though the likes of Avatar was a big dumb snoozefest, it was least done competently. Alita, on the other, was not. It was a shoddy YA novel but as a movie instead, with way too much budget to spend on visuals and, apparently, nothing spent on writing.
And the the credits popped up and it says right there "Directed by Robert Rodriguez". Then I completely understood why the movie was amateurish and filled with really fucking stupid ideas like having a hero character phonetically shout the phrase "hi-ya!" like it's some kind of fucking awful throwback martial arts movie made by somebody who had only heard of martial arts.
Basically, they need to fucking keep Rodriguez out of anything Star Wars, forever.
0
Options
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Jawas commitment to suicidally dangerous salvage recovery is my favourite thing.
Just a whole species which define themselves by "finders keepers".
‘We will trade for the Beskar?’
‘Trade what? It’s mine, you stole it.’
*incessant Jawa giggling*
-Loki- on
+8
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Gotta appreciate the spine on those Jawas, though. They mock the guy for sounding like a Wookie, he whips out a flamethrower, and they just duck and keep roasting him.
Not a strong self-preservation instinct there but still, gotta respect 'em.
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
It's easy to fuck up grimdark too, see Robert "add a scooter race" Rodriguez
I didn't really know anything about Rodriguez until BoBF, during which I got to know all too well just how terrible a director he is.
Then recently, I watched the fuckawful Alita: Battle Angel for the first time. The movie wrapped up and was rolling into the credits and I was thinking to myself "I thought Cameron did this movie, why was abjectly terrible in stupid ways?" Because even though the likes of Avatar was a big dumb snoozefest, it was least done competently. Alita, on the other, was not. It was a shoddy YA novel but as a movie instead, with way too much budget to spend on visuals and, apparently, nothing spent on writing.
And the the credits popped up and it says right there "Directed by Robert Rodriguez". Then I completely understood why the movie was amateurish and filled with really fucking stupid ideas like having a hero character phonetically shout the phrase "hi-ya!" like it's some kind of fucking awful throwback martial arts movie made by somebody who had only heard of martial arts.
Basically, they need to fucking keep Rodriguez out of anything Star Wars, forever.
Robert Rodriguez used to make very decent B-movies that were pretty profitable, so the Hollywood suits decided to let him direct stuff with an actual budget and names attached, but he hasn't really adjusted his style at all so his new stuff feels kinda crap.
His 90s work is absolutely worth watching, and Machete is fun, but his grindhouse style doesn't work at all for anime adaptations. It could work for Star Wars; I'm pretty sure the Vespas were the result of a fight with the insurance company over using motorcycles.
+8
Options
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
The biggest worry about Andor for me is the thought that any subsequent Star Wars series are going to take entirely the wrong lesson from it, and lean way too heavy into the grimdark side of things rather than actually telling a good Star Wars story.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
It's easy to fuck up grimdark too, see Robert "add a scooter race" Rodriguez
I didn't really know anything about Rodriguez until BoBF, during which I got to know all too well just how terrible a director he is.
Then recently, I watched the fuckawful Alita: Battle Angel for the first time. The movie wrapped up and was rolling into the credits and I was thinking to myself "I thought Cameron did this movie, why was abjectly terrible in stupid ways?" Because even though the likes of Avatar was a big dumb snoozefest, it was least done competently. Alita, on the other, was not. It was a shoddy YA novel but as a movie instead, with way too much budget to spend on visuals and, apparently, nothing spent on writing.
And the the credits popped up and it says right there "Directed by Robert Rodriguez". Then I completely understood why the movie was amateurish and filled with really fucking stupid ideas like having a hero character phonetically shout the phrase "hi-ya!" like it's some kind of fucking awful throwback martial arts movie made by somebody who had only heard of martial arts.
Basically, they need to fucking keep Rodriguez out of anything Star Wars, forever.
Robert Rodriguez used to make very decent B-movies that were pretty profitable, so the Hollywood suits decided to let him direct stuff with an actual budget and names attached, but he hasn't really adjusted his style at all so his new stuff feels kinda crap.
His 90s work is absolutely worth watching, and Machete is fun, but his grindhouse style doesn't work at all for anime adaptations. It could work for Star Wars; I'm pretty sure the Vespas were the result of a fight with the insurance company over using motorcycles.
I whole-heartedly recommend Desperado. It's got a ton of energy and Antonio Banderas and Salma Hayek are electric in it. The Spy Kids movies are pretty fun kids flicks. Other than that I'd say he's hit or miss. Except for From Dusk Till Dawn, but I don't know if I'd call that a Rodriguez movie because it's equal part Robert and Tarantino.
Posts
I don't think any hates space wizards and swords its just that the best examples of those stories are perfectly mid.. and the worst are oooooh wow..
But if I want someone trying to make better stories with space wizards and swords, it's exhausting to have to defend wanting 'mid' 'kiddy shit' that serious people have outgrown, like, why cling to this IP about space wizard swordsmen if you think space wizard swordsmen are cringe?
edit: I'll admit, this can be touchy for me as a writer who struggles to write what I intend to without reflexively curtailing all the fun excesses that I personally enjoy.
Are we not counting the OT here? Because otherwise the best example is Empire Strikes Back, a movie that set the standard every "mid" is judged by, and arguably a high blockbuster movies have been chasing for over 40 years.
I love swords and wizards, but I'm exhausted with Star Wars and its tiny incestuous universe full of Jedi. This is why Andor was so refreshing — it didn't lean on easy familiarity, and it didn't indulge in shallow fan service. This is something Star Wars has struggled with (or rather, indulged in intentionally, dead-eyed and profit-seeking without a care for quality beyond that).
But I want to be clear: There is absolutely nothing wrong with space wizards and laser swords. It's just the same ones, over and over, trodden so well that they lose that feeling of specialness and magic. Give us a few more series like Andor, building the universe and taking it seriously —because yes, you can take even a goofy setting like Star Wars seriously and do serious things with it! — and then, finally, after patiently building tension, THEN you have a big reveal where a character throws back their cloak and activates a lightsaber. (They'll never be patient about this, let's be real.)
But I want to specifically address this:
After grad school I had a bit of an identity crisis because I felt really compelled to be a reader and writer who loves the """"literary"""" fiction we studied, who is above genre fiction as anything but diversion, but that was really wrongheaded. Literary fiction is just another genre, and any genre can do the work that a story wants to do — to be enjoyable, to be meaningful, to viciously hammer home a point, to explore an idea, etc. We are getting a wave of genre work that engages cleverly with imperialism, colonialism, and racism right now, and it's also really fun and interesting genre fiction. And the fact that it's fun and exciting makes it a better vehicle for ideas because it connects with more people, maybe people who haven't been exposed to those ideas so much.
The only way to really do the hard work of writing stories is to write what you want to write. If those genre excesses are what drive that fun for you, then write those excesses! They aren't the problem with bad stories. Having a laser sword duel doesn't undermine a story's weight. It's just that the duel should be meaningful and interesting, and it has to connect with the ideas and conflicts in a way that make it feel bigger than just an action scene.
I think this is part of why the OT is still good, even to me, who is not a big star wars fan; even as a silly, often poorly acted space adventure story, there are moments when it connects to something more meaningful. I think about the ending of the OT a lot when considering why so many fantasy stories just have bad endings, because they fail to deliver what the OT did.
If we're honest, the standards for high-minded fiction and silly genre fiction are actually very similar. Intellectual, experimental fiction ends up being a bummer if it isn't also fun. And space operas just aren't as exciting if they aren't animated by some kind of meaningful framework of ideas.
I wasn't. Empire is a wonderful film and to this day is the best of the OT by a large margin and not one I would consider mid tier. I cant even really compare it to Andor as it is apples and oranges imo. Empire did what it needed to and was elevated by all its pieces from direction, dialogue, acting, cinematography and it did it within the scope of a feature length movie.
I would love to see something longer and more developed dealing with Jedi/Sith/The Force given the same level that we saw with Andor. Andor currently is an anomaly within Star Wars and that level of care with writing, acting, direction etc would be wonderful to be applied to more aspects of Star Wars.
Until Andor.
Or like, the way some people seemed prepared to just write the show off instantly if anything fantastical or familiar did show up, mostly in theories around Luthen or Ahsoka's role as Fulcrum. As if the writing or direction would suddenly retroactively be bad if that happened.
edit: I guess I have a deep dread of the possibility of a shift towards grit and mundane while new Star Wars continues to be mediocre at best, learning nothing from the quality of Andor and resulting in like, the Snyderverse equivalent of Star Wars for a few years.
Resistance was shit, but I don't think it had any wizards or laser swords.
There was a force-sensitive kid as a minor character and one time they got into it with the First Order trying to collect something from an old Sith Temple, but I think that's it.
Anyway when I say "Andor is what Star Wars should be" I mean good acting and dialog that goes beyond merely functional.
The Force and lightsabers are signature elements of Star Wars, but Star Wars is anything but just the Force and lightsabers. I don't think for a second that the lack of those things are what made Andor so good, but I definitely think that completely removing them from the show meant removing an easy temptation for lazy writing. And various content makers have had fucking decades to make something as good as Andor while still using the Force and lightsabers and shit. Which they failed to do.
The problem isn't people not wanting Jedi stuff or Jedi stuff being shoved in everything, it's Star Wars being repeatedly handled by individuals with mediocre-to-poor storytelling and cinematic ability.
But Andor is what Star Wars should be: well-done. I understand your points about the setting turning towards the gritty instead of the quality, but at least Andor broke the ground of having real quality cinematic material for Star Wars on a consistent basis. I entirely believe that even the PT could've been amazing, instead of boring, with Andor's level of attention to writing, acting, special effects, sound, everything.
So, not having those is not the definitive path to quality.
Mando is slinging that Darksaber around in BoBF.
Because going grimdark is easy, but telling a good story? Not so much.
The problem with a lot of Jedi stories is that they're too close to the Skywalker stuff. Set something before/during the OT, and you're stuck filling in holes between the movies. Set it after ROTJ and you're shackled with the ST's poor storytelling choices. It's been that way since the PT in one form or another. Jedi stores that found a way out of that trap, either by setting things far away from the movies (KOTOR, The Ninth Jedi) or narrowing the scope such that it only occasionally touches the main saga (Rebels, Fallen Order), are usually pretty good.
Other than that, it's not hard to write good Jedi/Sith stories. They're sorcerer knights. We've been riffing on knights and sorcerers for thousands of years. Pick a theme and go. Is the story about hunting a magic object, saving somebody/something, or some other quest? Is the protagonist good, bad, or somewhere in between? How are they tested? Who do they meet along the way? Do they succeed or fail? How does that change them? The shit writes itself because we've written it a thousand times. Make it as light or dark, subversive or affirming as you want.
Back to previous posts about Yoda and Obi-Wan being wrong. So they are, but there's interesting interpretation of Yoda that adds a little more depth to it. Maybe Yoda knew the Old Order was wrong and set Luke up to prove it.
Spoiled for Mancingtom's Star Wars Fanwank Power Hour
There's a very interesting passage when Yoda realizes that he can't defeat Palpatine. It goes:
With that passage in mind, let's look at Yoda's actions in the Original Trilogy:
In Empire, he is the trickster mentor. He doesn't hold Luke's hand at all. Yoda gives the lesson; whether Luke follows it is up to him. Those lessons are devoid of dogma or tradition. Yoda doesn't cut Luke's like a Padawan—or even tell him what a Padawan is. He tells him "this is the Force, this is how to wield it, this is the light, and that is the dark." Above all, Yoda seems most concerned with impressing upon Luke "memento mori." From hiding his identity when they first meet, to the Luke's failure at the cave, to when Luke finally leaves Dagobah, Yoda wants him to learn humility before anything else. It's true that Yoda cautioned Luke against going to Bespin, but because of any attachment issue. He'd clocked that it was a Sith trap meant to turn Luke. Note that during Luke's first lesson, Yoda said "you must unlearn what you have learned." Could he not have applied that to himself?
In Return, Yoda never explicitly tells Luke to kill Vader, only confront him. He laments that Luke found out the truth before he was ready, implying that he intended to tell him one day. Yoda says outright that he has nothing more to teach Luke and that Luke should pass on what he has learned. Clearly, Yoda was thinking beyond victory over Palpatine and equally focused on what would happen after.
So, here's my interpretation: Yoda knew that the Old Order—his Order—had failed. More than losing a war or duel, it was fundamentally flawed. Defeating a new kind of Sith required a new kind of Jedi. Yoda saw the problem but knew he wasn't the one to solve it. So he trains Luke in the most basic of the basics and sets him off, trusting in the Will of the Force. When he's smiling at the end, it isn't just because Luke did something the Old Jedi could not.
Here's another quote from that same passage:
Yoda's answer was to create a Jedi who fought the Sith with love.
We already have this problem except it's Jedi and lightsabers instead of grimdark. If they went grimdark, they'd just be shifting from an old crutch to a new crutch, and they probably wouldn't even get rid of the old one. The core problem would remain mediocre content creators running things, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Andor itself. And honestly, the Star Wars setting has gotten too lighthearted anyway; it could do with keeping some actual dirt on it like ESB/RotJ had, rather than making every damn scene about who gets to drop the quippiest lines.
I have to admit I find it utterly bizarre that anybody would look at Andor and think it will mean bad things for Star Wars.
Cue 2 minute monologue from Luthen about the ghosts of all the people he had to sacrifice to give the Rebels a chance haunting his dreams, followed by, "wait you're talking about a real fucking ghost?"
Keep in mind that all Luke did was keep Palps and Vader occupied while everyone else did the hard work of either fighting a ground battle to take down the shield or fighting a hopeless battle in space hoping the shield comes down.
That said, Luke is responsible for inspiring Vader to kill the Emperor, so it's quite possible Palpy could have escaped and kept the Empire going for another X decades after losing the second Death Star.
When the Rebels see the actual miraculous stuff a Jedi can pull off, I don't think the likes of Luthen, who carries around a kyber crystal, is going to be skeptical or feel his efforts wasted. If anything, he would take it as a huge sign of hope and that maybe the Rebellion really can bring down the Empire.
Other than that Vader can sense them, and that they can read you mind, so having anything to do with them would draw the Dark Lord down on your fledging operation like a giant asbestos moth to a tiny flame.
I'm pretty sure that was just the connection between Luke and Vader. Even the Emperor was surprised by Luke's presence.
Doesn’t matter. The graduation rate was terrible for both.
Maybe. But this probably treats the force too much like a diegetic construction. The Emperor was surprised by Luke because the force (of plot) wanted him to be.
It's easy to fuck up grimdark too, see Robert "add a scooter race" Rodriguez
But I also wish they'd do more episodes like the second, where he's trying to get his shit back from the Jawas. It's a lot like the sand people sub plot in TBoBF. Seeing these alien cultures that used to just be people in costumes for visual variety is really cool.
Just a whole species which define themselves by "finders keepers".
I didn't really know anything about Rodriguez until BoBF, during which I got to know all too well just how terrible a director he is.
Then recently, I watched the fuckawful Alita: Battle Angel for the first time. The movie wrapped up and was rolling into the credits and I was thinking to myself "I thought Cameron did this movie, why was abjectly terrible in stupid ways?" Because even though the likes of Avatar was a big dumb snoozefest, it was least done competently. Alita, on the other, was not. It was a shoddy YA novel but as a movie instead, with way too much budget to spend on visuals and, apparently, nothing spent on writing.
And the the credits popped up and it says right there "Directed by Robert Rodriguez". Then I completely understood why the movie was amateurish and filled with really fucking stupid ideas like having a hero character phonetically shout the phrase "hi-ya!" like it's some kind of fucking awful throwback martial arts movie made by somebody who had only heard of martial arts.
Basically, they need to fucking keep Rodriguez out of anything Star Wars, forever.
‘We will trade for the Beskar?’
‘Trade what? It’s mine, you stole it.’
*incessant Jawa giggling*
Not a strong self-preservation instinct there but still, gotta respect 'em.
*reads post*
*glances at avatar*
*squints suspiciously at avatar*
Robert Rodriguez used to make very decent B-movies that were pretty profitable, so the Hollywood suits decided to let him direct stuff with an actual budget and names attached, but he hasn't really adjusted his style at all so his new stuff feels kinda crap.
His 90s work is absolutely worth watching, and Machete is fun, but his grindhouse style doesn't work at all for anime adaptations. It could work for Star Wars; I'm pretty sure the Vespas were the result of a fight with the insurance company over using motorcycles.
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
I whole-heartedly recommend Desperado. It's got a ton of energy and Antonio Banderas and Salma Hayek are electric in it. The Spy Kids movies are pretty fun kids flicks. Other than that I'd say he's hit or miss. Except for From Dusk Till Dawn, but I don't know if I'd call that a Rodriguez movie because it's equal part Robert and Tarantino.