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I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
there absolutely is a market for them, obviously you dont put ten million of them a year or whatever, but a dark sun book this year, a dragonlance book next year to go along with a FR adventure or two and an eberon adventure? Sure
Third party books are selling, but just not in huge numbers, this is not a business that makes billions in profits
And to counter your point, they throw bullshit up on D&D beyond all the time, the publication cost of digital material is not high
the only additional volume I'm suggesting is adding some splat books, which can even be online only, the biggest change is additional staffing with less of a short term profit ravenous corporate nonsense
Like as an example WOTC is paying less for freelancers than it paid in 2000
thats not adjusting for inflation, thats in absolute terms
Third party books are selling but not in the numbers to make it worthwhile to produce for WoTC is my point.
And like, 5e has been out for 10 years and has... 10 setting books. One per year. It has 8 supplements, and 27 adventures.... 2.7 per year. The problem you're having is not the production rate of WoTC its that you don't like the things they've been doing.
I am not sure that DnD can publish these things in a way that doesn't "damage the brand" as it were. The directive, that everything in DnD must be in every setting, i think is bad for settings. But it makes sense for the DnD brand to have it. It keeps all the splat books relevant. It means that players won't feel left out of a setting if they have a character idea that is "somewhere in dnd" but suddenly not in dark sun. Etc.
Similarly i am not sure that DnD has an easy path to selling books online only. There is a perception of lesser quality from this and DnD products have a "repuation" to uphold even if we don't think its warranted.
Should DnD have a separate, online only, supplement product line? Maybe. Could they have a new brand for more "adult" products? Also maybe. I am just not sure its worth their time. Especially if they want to continue to publish novels in setting. It can also cannibalize their main products. So could licensing out the unused campaign settings.
Which designers these days would you trust to make a pretty good 5e compatible, serial-numbers-filed-off version of Dark Sun?
This person does not exist because the task is functionally impossible.
Like you could theoretically make something compatable with the current goals but it would be like me serving a packet of dry ramen noodles, 3 packets of ketchup and 4 ounces of tofu in a bowl and calling it "Authentic Italian Spaghetti and meatballs" in that if you squint hard enough you can see that some sort of attempt was made but it fallen wildly short of it's purported goal.
And like, 5e has been out for 10 years and has... 10 setting books. One per year. It has 8 supplements, and 27 adventures.... 2.7 per year. The problem you're having is not the production rate of WoTC its that you don't like the things they've been doing.
I'd argue that the rate of release combined with the lack of support for settings has hurt the concept of settings a great deal... to say nothing of how some of them have fallen well short of the mark (Planescape, Spelljammer, dragonlance) while others were adapting MTG settings that weren't exactly in demand (Theros, rivera, that harry potter one) which leaves us with SCAG (which is decent as a crash course for FR), Ebberon (not quite my cup of tea but I don't begrudge those who enjoy it... and it was decent from my understanding) Exandria (Mercer's greyhawk clone) and Ravenloft (Which is niche but honestly flexes pretty damn hard as a setting guide/resource for horror themed campaigns).
And like... aside from SCAG none of these really had content released specifically for them outside of 1 campaign module for wildemont.
And I get it: Making settings and modules is expensive and time consuming... but we're going into a digital age where WotC has basically decided that everything is going to be a PDF so a lot of the cost of production/distribution is going to collapse so there's less excuse to not pump content.
WotC is full corporate mode at this point, I don't expect them to put real effort in unless there's a crazy fad they think they can latch onto with internal creatives ALSO into it. So like if the next Harry Potter YA Explosion hits, and it's D&D friendly, they might jump on that bandwagon to try and catch the drippings, but otherwise what we have now is how they respond to D&D being more popular than ever before. They'd need a whole extra zero to consider getting motivated.
WotC is full corporate mode at this point, I don't expect them to put real effort in unless there's a crazy fad they think they can latch onto with internal creatives ALSO into it. So like if the next Harry Potter YA Explosion hits, and it's D&D friendly, they might jump on that bandwagon to try and catch the drippings, but otherwise what we have now is how they respond to D&D being more popular than ever before. They'd need a whole extra zero to consider getting motivated.
See, I'm wondering if this would have been the case if they hadn't had so many bungles over the last few years.
0
Havelock3.0What are you?Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered Userregular
edited August 2024
I’d trust Studio Agate who created Esteren and Fateforge (their 5E setting which deals with similar themes and has distinct semi-real world equivalent cultures for their species that doesn’t feel like, “what if orcs but caballeros??”), Modiphius or Free League
Those three seem like they could pull off a legit Dark Sun adaptation while handling the rougher subject matter in a non-shitty (tone deaf) or sanitizing way.
But I’m biased because I’m a big customer of the three
Havelock3.0 on
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
0
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
I think WOTC needs better management, the employees certainly aren't lazy, they certainly are creative, their designers aren't bad at their jobs, it's a confluence of a lot of bad corporate culture, owners who are so far divorced from the business as to be aliens, a lack of staffing and budget, ridiculous timetables, and probably a whole buttload of burnout
Now, I certainly don't intend to slander folks like Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins, but I don't know how valuable it is to have such old hands on the steering wheel for D&D?
There can be value found in accumulated experience & history in a career field, but every time that D&D is the last to arrive at a commonly established shift in the TTRPG medium I can't help but think that might be the result of older developers being resistant to change so many of their sacred cows that they've carried forward for two decades.
Like... We all respect Shigeru Miyamoto's contributions to the video game industry but in the year 2024 I DO NOT want him in charge of a video game.
0
Havelock3.0What are you?Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered Userregular
edited August 2024
I always had the impression that Perkins and Crawford had a genuine love of the game that was sorely needed for the helmsfolk of the product, or at least that was my impression of them from Acquisition Inc
Havelock3.0 on
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
Neither chris perkins nor jeremy crawford is "steering the wheel"
The reason D&D2024 pulled back so hard on ambitious ideas instead of doing the necessary playtesting to refine them is because they had massive staffing cuts and an arbitrary deadline
A new setting also needs to be very, very interesting and refreshing to be worth in investing in, and capable of supporting varied play. Moreover, it needs a creative team that is capable and allowed to flesh it out enough to reach that point, who will stick around long enough to steer that ship.
FR with a funny hat and glasses won't cut it.
YES.
Like Fuck yeah give me something fresh and new. Go Out and ignore all the fucking conventions of FR, GH and DL! Create new alliances and Dynamics and Cultures and Fucking give me a reason to believe that D&D is in the hands of people who have a creative vision and don't simultaneously shit on the past while also shamelessly pillage it for material because they're too intellectually bankrupt to create something that stands on it's own legs!
MAKE ME WANT TO BUY YOUR BOOK WIZARDS OF THE COAST! PUT SOME DRIVE AND PASSION INTO IT!!!
+5
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
Neither chris perkins nor jeremy crawford is "steering the wheel"
Okay, Chris Perkins may not be, as he is only a senior story designer.
But Jeremy Crawford likely has his hand on that steering wheel. He's the lead rules designer for the game (and also the face of the game, as he primarily does all video interviews regarding the rules of the game itself).
Unless you think Dan Rawson or John Hight spend their days actually developing the game itself?
At this point I think most people with passion for the medium have gone indie/freelance, where their material is muddied by the lack of scaling. WotC would need to scour material and track down writers to figure out who has that secret sauce and them lock them down to a contract.
So, effort.
--
Crawford can't even answer a basic rules question in a useful way. I can't see things getting better while he's around.
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
BahamutZERO on
+3
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
When your corporate overlords want you to be a billion dollar company that’s going to warp the priorities a company has.
There is a balance though. 3.5, 4e and PF1 all had splatbook fatigue.
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
Like this is a big part of the problem in that they put out materials but don't support any of it in any real way. Eberron *should* have had a handful of books with modules at varying levels exploring the world and it's concepts. Spelljammer should have been released with the module seperated from it, merged the Monster manual and the Players guide and then used the extra page count to flesh out Wild space, owning and operating a spelljammer, the major players in the cosmos and idea's for how well known boats in space is in general. Forgotten realms should have gotten books dedicated to the regions outside of the sword coast (The heartlands, the dales, the empires of the sands, the unaproachable east, kara-tur...). Dragonlance Should have walked players and GM's through the idea that the presence of healing magic and Divinity (to say nothing of dragons) was a very new thing at the time the modules are typically set for the base but could also have established the world during other time periods with other source books...
Like it *hurts* to be able to see the glimmer of an idea in a bunch of these books and to also know that they're never going to get it because of how Hasbro won't properly invest in the IP while also not engaging in slimy corporate bullshit.
You are in charge of WotC's D&D division. You are able to produce four books a year.
What's your five year plan?
I dedicate each year to a different Setting, releasing a core Setting guide that contains Monsters, Classes and World overview in a 300 page book. To save some cost I reduce the total amount of art so that there are actually double page spreads with text and/or Graphs.
From there, I schedule the release of 3 modules that go from level 1-6/7, 6/7 to 12/13 and then one that goes to 20 that each share a through point narrative while still being self contained adventures in their own right.
I feel like trying to do a new setting every year is maybe stretching too thin
of course what they're actually doing, a new setting every year but also all the adventures are just in Faerun anyway, is worse
BahamutZERO on
+4
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
edited August 2024
Okay, here is my five year-plan (rough-draft, obviously):
YEAR #1
-- The Core Rulebook: we're merging elements of the PHB & the DMG together, just like Paizo 2E
-- The Campaign Rulebook: we're detailing our new campaign setting here, alongside our traditional bestiary, with stuff like factions, organizations, ect
-- The #1 Mini-Adventure Module Collection: a collection of smaller adventures, likely levels one to three, in the different prominent nations/locations of our new campaign setting
-- The Subterranean Book: a book detailing the subterranean realm of the new campaign setting, including new gear, spells, monsters, ancestries, and character options related to this realm, in addition to a shorter adventure module beginning going from levels one to three (with the conclusion altering the balance of the setting at the end of it)
YEAR #2
-- The Equipment Manual: our first pure supplement is where we detail expanded rules for equipment, vehicles, buildings, and more
-- The Expanded Core Rulebook: an expansion of the core rulebook, providing new options for all ancestries, classes, backgrounds, in addition to offering variant rules (akin to the old Unearthed Arcana book for 3.5)
-- The #2 Mini-Adventure Module Collection: our second collection of smaller adventures, likely levels four to seven, in the different prominent nations/locations of our new campaign setting
-- The Verdant Book: a book detailing the verdant realm of the new campaign setting, including new gear, spells, monsters, ancestries, and character options related to this realm, in addition to a shorter adventure module beginning going from levels four to seven (with the conclusion altering the balance of the setting at the end of it)
YEAR #3
-- The Spell Tome: our second pure supplement detailing new spells, new magic items, new magical monsters (familiars, constructs, ect), in addition to introducing a system for creating spells
-- Fiend Folio #1: a traditional bestiary focused on monsters geared for adventures level one to ten, in addition to rules on creating monsters and rules for playing monsters
-- The #3 Mini-Adventure Module Collection: our third collection of smaller adventures, likely levels eight to twelve, in the different prominent nations/locations of our new campaign setting
-- The Aquatic Book: a book detailing the aquatic realm of the new campaign setting, including new gear, spells, monsters, ancestries, and character options related to this realm, in addition to a shorter adventure module beginning going from levels eight to twelve (with the conclusion altering the balance of the setting at the end of it)
YEAR #4
-- The Psionic Guidebook: an accessory to the core rulebook in which psionics is introduced through new ancestries, classes, monsters, and the new psionic sub-system to spellcasting
-- Faction Codex: a nontraditional bestiary focused on the NPCs that populate the factions, organizations, and nations of the new campaign setting, in addition to rules on nation building and playing larger-scale campaigns (geography-wise)
-- The #4 Mini-Adventure Module Collection: our fourth collection of smaller adventures, likely levels thirteen to sixteen, in the different prominent nations/locations of our new campaign setting
-- The Abyssal Book: a book detailing the abyssal plane of the new campaign setting, including new gear, spells, monsters, ancestries, and character options related to this plane, in addition to a shorter adventure module beginning going from levels thirteen to sixteen (with the conclusion altering the balance of the setting at the end of it)
YEAR #5
-- The Expanded Core Rulebook #2: our second expansion of the core rulebook, providing new options for all ancestries, classes, backgrounds, in addition to how to upgrade your characters and games for "epic" play, with legendary character options, magic items, spells, and more
-- Fiend Folio #2: a traditional bestiary focused on monsters geared for adventures level eleven to twenty, in addition to rules on upgrading & modifying monsters as well as constructing lairs
-- The #5 Mini-Adventure Module Collection: our fifth and final collection of smaller adventures, likely levels seventeen to twenty, in the different prominent nations/locations of our new campaign setting
-- The Planar Book: a book detailing the different planes of the new campaign setting, including new gear, spells, monsters, ancestries, and character options related to these planes, in addition to a shorter adventure module beginning going from levels seventeen to twenty (with the conclusion altering the balance of the setting at the end of it)
So the rough idea here is that the mini-adventure module collections can be interconnected together to create traditional twentieth campaigns, but through a jig sawing mechanic, that affords DMs the ability to offer their tables different campaigns & adventures (without being locked into a very traditional one to twenty adventure module). But the indirect mechanic of these mini-adventure module collections is that they'd offer peaks into the different areas of the new campaign setting, letting us develop our setting while still providing DMs with smaller adventures.
The environmental books are where we try our big, ambitious plan with a serialized, continuing storyline across the five different books. While tables can have their own unique campaigns (be it through their own efforts or by jig sawing the smaller adventures in the mini-adventure module collections), what the environmental books offer is the promise that the D&D community is playing through the same large-scale adventure, following along with it akin to a TV show.
The rest of the books are largely supplemental in either offering additional character options or creatures/NPCs for the DM. This five-year plan is totally absent on the inclusion of other settings and that's a deliberate choice. The company, under my stewardship, is pushing forward with a singular, new campaign setting that reflects prior settings but is built with modern players in mind.
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
When your corporate overlords want you to be a billion dollar company that’s going to warp the priorities a company has.
There is a balance though. 3.5, 4e and PF1 all had splatbook fatigue.
Covid kind of broke corporate brains because relatively niche hobbies saw massive spikes in sales and while companies like Paizo recognize a windfall, public corporations are goldfish with neither institutional memory nor foresight, last quarter big number? next quarter must be bigger number
Hasbro fired the team that collaborated on BG3… they are anathema to follow through
because BG3 infuriated them, all of that money, and they can't have it all
Some fucking idiot executive probably told the others that if they broke off with Larian that next time they could have all that money, completely divorced from reality
I know it's stupid and juvenile of me, but I always hope corpo executives end up reading comments like yours @override367 and that they get really, really sad and depressed
Then I hope in an unrelated turn of events somebody hits them in the balls with a lead pipe about twenty times
I think the pace of releases for 5e has been fine. I don't want too many books. Late 3.5e and all of 4e were guilty of this and it felt very much like a cash grab.
Early 5e was great. Large, quality books turning classic modules into full on campaigns and most of them had added backgrounds and options and new monsters, etc. Great. In the past few years, they've increases the pace of releases and the quality of the content has been garbage. Super dissapointed, like everyone else here, with Dragonlance, Planescape and Spelljammer. Eberron was slightly better, but not by much.
Al-Qadim seems p great @Gaddez thanks for shining a light on it.
It never had a ton of materials for it but I really enjoyed that setting when I played it. I really loved the complete sha'ir book back in the day which I think was 2nd edition maybe 3rd that has some really weird/interesting very different spell casters that had a great arabian nights feel.
Yea the last successful setting was Eberron (I fucking loved points of light tough) and most of their creative decisions have been “not good” since then. I think this has a lot to do with cannon actually. WotC wants to have media properties with plot and plot is anathema to good settings. Plot resolves things and the primary value for settings is the list of unresolved things for which to make hooks for players. As soon as those are resolved you need to do the work of making the setting again!
Forgotten realms is I think, the only one this works for well since FR is just “here is another, different, outside context problem”. The setting doesn’t matter when every issue is fundamentally “aliens attack”.
But Eberron has like, established story villains and potential plots and if you write that grounded story either you cannot use one of those or you end up using one of those up.
Like… it’s just a lot harder to do dragonlance after dragons of summer flame has been written. The setting has” concluded” just about. All the macguffin a were unearthed and used and the major characters are dead or fixed and… sure you can have new stories but this is akin to writing a whole ‘nother setting!
I think eberron being their last successful setting was that it was the last one that actually felt fleshed out. In 5e I have gotten some of of their world supplement stuff but my god they just are like second hand cliff notes of the various settings. I really wanted the new spell jammer one and was just so disappointed in what they delivered. It is like they feel their audience has such a short attention span they don't feel like they can go into any depth at all about basically anything. I know a lot of people who do 5e campaigns who borrow heavily from my large stash of 2/3rd edition books back when they were big thick books with lots of useful lore info. Hell even the old dark sun soft covered world books have so much more interesting and detailed info than modern 5e stuff.
My bookshelf has about 100 5e books and only 10 of them are from WOTC, I can't be like literally the only DM in the world who buys more stuff than WOTC produces (well and I havent bought most of their stuff from the last 2 years)
the quality would get better if they had more dedicated teams who could spend longer working on their projects
override367 on
+1
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
My bookshelf has about 100 5e books and only 10 of them are from WOTC, I can't be like literally the only DM in the world who buys more stuff than WOTC produces (well and I havent bought most of their stuff from the last 2 years)
the quality would get better if they had more dedicated teams who could spend longer working on their projects
I have a mountain of pdfs from DMs guild to help flesh out settings, and quite a few books from kobold press to build encounters, have new player options and new monsters. They’re all better then the official stuff.
My point was there's no reason that is the case, if WOTC was run like say, Larian Studios or Paizo, a lot of third party creators would just be... first party creators that work for them remotely and are reasonably compensated
override367 on
+7
Havelock3.0What are you?Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered Userregular
I have a bunch of non WotC 5E stuff that’s like light years better than what they have recently put out without the backing of a enormous game company
SteelHawk is right 5E releases weren’t always hot garbage but around two or three years ago they went downhill fast
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
Yea the last successful setting was Eberron (I fucking loved points of light tough) and most of their creative decisions have been “not good” since then. I think this has a lot to do with cannon actually. WotC wants to have media properties with plot and plot is anathema to good settings. Plot resolves things and the primary value for settings is the list of unresolved things for which to make hooks for players. As soon as those are resolved you need to do the work of making the setting again!
Forgotten realms is I think, the only one this works for well since FR is just “here is another, different, outside context problem”. The setting doesn’t matter when every issue is fundamentally “aliens attack”.
But Eberron has like, established story villains and potential plots and if you write that grounded story either you cannot use one of those or you end up using one of those up.
Like… it’s just a lot harder to do dragonlance after dragons of summer flame has been written. The setting has” concluded” just about. All the macguffin a were unearthed and used and the major characters are dead or fixed and… sure you can have new stories but this is akin to writing a whole ‘nother setting!
Points of Light was the perfect "setting" for the core rulebooks. And is one of many ways 4th ed was more true to the theme and style of 1970s D&D than anything made since 87'.
Establish themes. Set expectations about what this game is for. Eg: D&D is about fighting monsters and getting treasure. If you dont want to do those things play a different game! (Of course it is because of Hasbro that D&D has to enshittify itself by pretending it can be all things to all gamers to maximize sales)
But dont bog down with the massive pile of BLAND that is Forgotten Realms.
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
It is really impossible to properly run a tabletop rpg studio in a company like Hasbro. Its a miracle and a testament to how insanely dedicated wotc employees have been* that theyve kept the grift going this long.
I think people hugely overestimate in their minds how big wotc as a whole is, how many in wotc work on D&D and how much they are paid. These people are making struggling nonprofit money. Schoolteacher in a red state money.
* many have also been shitty people. But even they put in an insane amount of work for shit pay
My point was there's no reason that is the case, if WOTC was run like say, Larian Studios or Paizo, a lot of third party creators would just be... first party creators that work for them remotely and are reasonably compensated
Paizo is privately owned. No sub brand inside hasbro, or any public company, can operate like they do.
RiemannLives on
+1
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
It is really impossible to properly run a tabletop rpg studio in a company like Hasbro. Its a miracle and a testament to how insanely dedicated wotc employees have been* that theyve kept the grift going this long.
I think people hugely overestimate in their minds how big wotc as a whole is, how many in wotc work on D&D and how much they are paid. These people are making struggling nonprofit money. Schoolteacher in a red state money.
* many have also been shitty people. But even they put in an insane amount of work for shit pay
Isn’t it like 7 or 8 full time employees on the d&d side?
I am actually just not sure that there is the market for these books. Its not that they're not good and valuable its that buying books is expensive but a single group can only utilize so many settings/adventures. Everyone uses the PHB. A setting book is for one fifth of one tenth of groups.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
It is really impossible to properly run a tabletop rpg studio in a company like Hasbro. Its a miracle and a testament to how insanely dedicated wotc employees have been* that theyve kept the grift going this long.
I think people hugely overestimate in their minds how big wotc as a whole is, how many in wotc work on D&D and how much they are paid. These people are making struggling nonprofit money. Schoolteacher in a red state money.
* many have also been shitty people. But even they put in an insane amount of work for shit pay
Isn’t it like 7 or 8 full time employees on the d&d side?
I believe Matt Colville's upcoming RPG has more staff working on it, yes
Posts
there absolutely is a market for them, obviously you dont put ten million of them a year or whatever, but a dark sun book this year, a dragonlance book next year to go along with a FR adventure or two and an eberon adventure? Sure
Third party books are selling, but just not in huge numbers, this is not a business that makes billions in profits
And to counter your point, they throw bullshit up on D&D beyond all the time, the publication cost of digital material is not high
the only additional volume I'm suggesting is adding some splat books, which can even be online only, the biggest change is additional staffing with less of a short term profit ravenous corporate nonsense
Like as an example WOTC is paying less for freelancers than it paid in 2000
thats not adjusting for inflation, thats in absolute terms
And like, 5e has been out for 10 years and has... 10 setting books. One per year. It has 8 supplements, and 27 adventures.... 2.7 per year. The problem you're having is not the production rate of WoTC its that you don't like the things they've been doing.
I am not sure that DnD can publish these things in a way that doesn't "damage the brand" as it were. The directive, that everything in DnD must be in every setting, i think is bad for settings. But it makes sense for the DnD brand to have it. It keeps all the splat books relevant. It means that players won't feel left out of a setting if they have a character idea that is "somewhere in dnd" but suddenly not in dark sun. Etc.
Similarly i am not sure that DnD has an easy path to selling books online only. There is a perception of lesser quality from this and DnD products have a "repuation" to uphold even if we don't think its warranted.
Should DnD have a separate, online only, supplement product line? Maybe. Could they have a new brand for more "adult" products? Also maybe. I am just not sure its worth their time. Especially if they want to continue to publish novels in setting. It can also cannibalize their main products. So could licensing out the unused campaign settings.
This person does not exist because the task is functionally impossible.
Like you could theoretically make something compatable with the current goals but it would be like me serving a packet of dry ramen noodles, 3 packets of ketchup and 4 ounces of tofu in a bowl and calling it "Authentic Italian Spaghetti and meatballs" in that if you squint hard enough you can see that some sort of attempt was made but it fallen wildly short of it's purported goal.
I'd argue that the rate of release combined with the lack of support for settings has hurt the concept of settings a great deal... to say nothing of how some of them have fallen well short of the mark (Planescape, Spelljammer, dragonlance) while others were adapting MTG settings that weren't exactly in demand (Theros, rivera, that harry potter one) which leaves us with SCAG (which is decent as a crash course for FR), Ebberon (not quite my cup of tea but I don't begrudge those who enjoy it... and it was decent from my understanding) Exandria (Mercer's greyhawk clone) and Ravenloft (Which is niche but honestly flexes pretty damn hard as a setting guide/resource for horror themed campaigns).
And like... aside from SCAG none of these really had content released specifically for them outside of 1 campaign module for wildemont.
And I get it: Making settings and modules is expensive and time consuming... but we're going into a digital age where WotC has basically decided that everything is going to be a PDF so a lot of the cost of production/distribution is going to collapse so there's less excuse to not pump content.
See, I'm wondering if this would have been the case if they hadn't had so many bungles over the last few years.
Those three seem like they could pull off a legit Dark Sun adaptation while handling the rougher subject matter in a non-shitty (tone deaf) or sanitizing way.
But I’m biased because I’m a big customer of the three
Now, I certainly don't intend to slander folks like Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins, but I don't know how valuable it is to have such old hands on the steering wheel for D&D?
There can be value found in accumulated experience & history in a career field, but every time that D&D is the last to arrive at a commonly established shift in the TTRPG medium I can't help but think that might be the result of older developers being resistant to change so many of their sacred cows that they've carried forward for two decades.
Like... We all respect Shigeru Miyamoto's contributions to the video game industry but in the year 2024 I DO NOT want him in charge of a video game.
The reason D&D2024 pulled back so hard on ambitious ideas instead of doing the necessary playtesting to refine them is because they had massive staffing cuts and an arbitrary deadline
YES.
Like Fuck yeah give me something fresh and new. Go Out and ignore all the fucking conventions of FR, GH and DL! Create new alliances and Dynamics and Cultures and Fucking give me a reason to believe that D&D is in the hands of people who have a creative vision and don't simultaneously shit on the past while also shamelessly pillage it for material because they're too intellectually bankrupt to create something that stands on it's own legs!
MAKE ME WANT TO BUY YOUR BOOK WIZARDS OF THE COAST! PUT SOME DRIVE AND PASSION INTO IT!!!
Okay, Chris Perkins may not be, as he is only a senior story designer.
But Jeremy Crawford likely has his hand on that steering wheel. He's the lead rules designer for the game (and also the face of the game, as he primarily does all video interviews regarding the rules of the game itself).
Unless you think Dan Rawson or John Hight spend their days actually developing the game itself?
So, effort.
--
Crawford can't even answer a basic rules question in a useful way. I can't see things getting better while he's around.
I dunno how but Paizo seems to do alright following the old ways, printing setting books and adventures and fiction in their flagship setting.
I could definitely believe the core problem with Wizards' creative output, and specifically especially in the D&D branch, is just starvation of resources from upstairs.
When your corporate overlords want you to be a billion dollar company that’s going to warp the priorities a company has.
There is a balance though. 3.5, 4e and PF1 all had splatbook fatigue.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Like this is a big part of the problem in that they put out materials but don't support any of it in any real way. Eberron *should* have had a handful of books with modules at varying levels exploring the world and it's concepts. Spelljammer should have been released with the module seperated from it, merged the Monster manual and the Players guide and then used the extra page count to flesh out Wild space, owning and operating a spelljammer, the major players in the cosmos and idea's for how well known boats in space is in general. Forgotten realms should have gotten books dedicated to the regions outside of the sword coast (The heartlands, the dales, the empires of the sands, the unaproachable east, kara-tur...). Dragonlance Should have walked players and GM's through the idea that the presence of healing magic and Divinity (to say nothing of dragons) was a very new thing at the time the modules are typically set for the base but could also have established the world during other time periods with other source books...
Like it *hurts* to be able to see the glimmer of an idea in a bunch of these books and to also know that they're never going to get it because of how Hasbro won't properly invest in the IP while also not engaging in slimy corporate bullshit.
You are in charge of WotC's D&D division. You are able to produce four books a year.
What's your five year plan?
One book a year devoted to a new setting OR a setting expansion.
One book a year for player options.
One book a year for DM options (Monsters, Items, etc., Deep Lore)
One book of experimental ideas for DMs and players built on a theme.
I dedicate each year to a different Setting, releasing a core Setting guide that contains Monsters, Classes and World overview in a 300 page book. To save some cost I reduce the total amount of art so that there are actually double page spreads with text and/or Graphs.
From there, I schedule the release of 3 modules that go from level 1-6/7, 6/7 to 12/13 and then one that goes to 20 that each share a through point narrative while still being self contained adventures in their own right.
of course what they're actually doing, a new setting every year but also all the adventures are just in Faerun anyway, is worse
So the rough idea here is that the mini-adventure module collections can be interconnected together to create traditional twentieth campaigns, but through a jig sawing mechanic, that affords DMs the ability to offer their tables different campaigns & adventures (without being locked into a very traditional one to twenty adventure module). But the indirect mechanic of these mini-adventure module collections is that they'd offer peaks into the different areas of the new campaign setting, letting us develop our setting while still providing DMs with smaller adventures.
The environmental books are where we try our big, ambitious plan with a serialized, continuing storyline across the five different books. While tables can have their own unique campaigns (be it through their own efforts or by jig sawing the smaller adventures in the mini-adventure module collections), what the environmental books offer is the promise that the D&D community is playing through the same large-scale adventure, following along with it akin to a TV show.
The rest of the books are largely supplemental in either offering additional character options or creatures/NPCs for the DM. This five-year plan is totally absent on the inclusion of other settings and that's a deliberate choice. The company, under my stewardship, is pushing forward with a singular, new campaign setting that reflects prior settings but is built with modern players in mind.
Covid kind of broke corporate brains because relatively niche hobbies saw massive spikes in sales and while companies like Paizo recognize a windfall, public corporations are goldfish with neither institutional memory nor foresight, last quarter big number? next quarter must be bigger number
because BG3 infuriated them, all of that money, and they can't have it all
Some fucking idiot executive probably told the others that if they broke off with Larian that next time they could have all that money, completely divorced from reality
Then I hope in an unrelated turn of events somebody hits them in the balls with a lead pipe about twenty times
Early 5e was great. Large, quality books turning classic modules into full on campaigns and most of them had added backgrounds and options and new monsters, etc. Great. In the past few years, they've increases the pace of releases and the quality of the content has been garbage. Super dissapointed, like everyone else here, with Dragonlance, Planescape and Spelljammer. Eberron was slightly better, but not by much.
I don't want more. I want better.
It never had a ton of materials for it but I really enjoyed that setting when I played it. I really loved the complete sha'ir book back in the day which I think was 2nd edition maybe 3rd that has some really weird/interesting very different spell casters that had a great arabian nights feel.
I think eberron being their last successful setting was that it was the last one that actually felt fleshed out. In 5e I have gotten some of of their world supplement stuff but my god they just are like second hand cliff notes of the various settings. I really wanted the new spell jammer one and was just so disappointed in what they delivered. It is like they feel their audience has such a short attention span they don't feel like they can go into any depth at all about basically anything. I know a lot of people who do 5e campaigns who borrow heavily from my large stash of 2/3rd edition books back when they were big thick books with lots of useful lore info. Hell even the old dark sun soft covered world books have so much more interesting and detailed info than modern 5e stuff.
the quality would get better if they had more dedicated teams who could spend longer working on their projects
I have a mountain of pdfs from DMs guild to help flesh out settings, and quite a few books from kobold press to build encounters, have new player options and new monsters. They’re all better then the official stuff.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
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SteelHawk is right 5E releases weren’t always hot garbage but around two or three years ago they went downhill fast
Understand that I am -goddamn lazy-.
Points of Light was the perfect "setting" for the core rulebooks. And is one of many ways 4th ed was more true to the theme and style of 1970s D&D than anything made since 87'.
Establish themes. Set expectations about what this game is for. Eg: D&D is about fighting monsters and getting treasure. If you dont want to do those things play a different game! (Of course it is because of Hasbro that D&D has to enshittify itself by pretending it can be all things to all gamers to maximize sales)
But dont bog down with the massive pile of BLAND that is Forgotten Realms.
It is really impossible to properly run a tabletop rpg studio in a company like Hasbro. Its a miracle and a testament to how insanely dedicated wotc employees have been* that theyve kept the grift going this long.
I think people hugely overestimate in their minds how big wotc as a whole is, how many in wotc work on D&D and how much they are paid. These people are making struggling nonprofit money. Schoolteacher in a red state money.
* many have also been shitty people. But even they put in an insane amount of work for shit pay
Paizo is privately owned. No sub brand inside hasbro, or any public company, can operate like they do.
Isn’t it like 7 or 8 full time employees on the d&d side?
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
I believe Matt Colville's upcoming RPG has more staff working on it, yes