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A GDST about whether school sports should be a thing
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited October 16
Yooooooooo ♥️ thanks, friend
I say unto thee: nay
Quick heads up: I will not respond to being pilloried, but am open to any good-faith argument and realize this is a conversation with a great room for nuance and specifics.
Lemme give the thread my CV
- Football player from age 5-23
- Five years playing center and deep snapper in the NCAA with various teams, including TCU
- Won two championships
- Trans af 🏳️⚧️
One thing that strikes me whenever this conversation comes up is the weird reaction a lot of what seems like mostly americans have where they act like if school didn't run sports, they wouldn't exist. School sports aren't that big a thing other places and non-school-based sports leagues just fill the gaps. And without the weird tie-in to the education system.
In the context it started from (defanging the right wing controversalizing trans youth in youth sports), it’s a complete non-sequitir and any millennial queer person who grew up in America should automatically understand that because they literally grew up during the phase of the culture war where the right was fighting to exclude queer people from open participation in “private” commerce.
They’d just apply the same arguments from that front where they twisted freedom of religion and free association to attack trans youth in privately organized youth sports.
I agree with Atomica. As a middle aged guy my health would be far better if my childhood education hadn't equated physical education with competition.
And don't get me started on teams. Homo homini lupus.
There are better ways to get kids to move, healthier activities, less damaging dynamics.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
How does a non-school based sports league syphon funds from public education?
In the context it started from (defanging the right wing controversalizing trans youth in youth sports), it’s a complete non-sequitir and any millennial queer person who grew up in America should automatically understand that because they literally grew up during the phase of the culture war where the right was fighting to exclude queer people from open participation in “private” commerce.
They’d just apply the same arguments from that front where they twisted freedom of religion and free association to attack trans youth in privately organized youth sports.
It’s fundamentally farcical
If the question is "should people y be excluded from thing x" the conversation should almost never be "get rid of x". Not right then. Equality is not conditional. If you want to get rid of x, do that separately.
(see also marriage, bathrooms, the military, etc etc etc)
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
How does a non-school based sports league syphon funds from public education?
All the funds being used for school sports now being taken from schools, probably moreso.
One thing that strikes me whenever this conversation comes up is the weird reaction a lot of what seems like mostly americans have where they act like if school didn't run sports, they wouldn't exist. School sports aren't that big a thing other places and non-school-based sports leagues just fill the gaps. And without the weird tie-in to the education system.
Which countries are you referring to here? Like at a minimum north American countries like Canada/USA/Mexico all have large high school sport organizations, not going to look up central American countries, but it seems pretty common
Swimming and tennis and track are all in UK schools, too, if the sitcoms based in Britain I've seen are to be believed.
One thing that strikes me whenever this conversation comes up is the weird reaction a lot of what seems like mostly americans have where they act like if school didn't run sports, they wouldn't exist. School sports aren't that big a thing other places and non-school-based sports leagues just fill the gaps. And without the weird tie-in to the education system.
Which countries are you referring to here? Like at a minimum north American countries like Canada/USA/Mexico all have large high school sport organizations, not going to look up central American countries, but it seems pretty common
Swimming and tennis and track are all in UK schools, too, if the sitcoms based in Britain I've seen are to be believed.
Nah. Canada has school sports but they are pretty whatever and the actual serious players are not in the school leagues.
And that's gets even more true at the post-secondary level. If you want an athletic scholarship, you go south to the US.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
How does a non-school based sports league syphon funds from public education?
All the funds being used for school sports now being taken from schools, probably moreso.
How? The school board is going to start sending part of it's budget to the local soccer league somehow?
Obviously sport scholarships and the competition for them and amateurism are abominations, but I think that the actual solution is free public education. Private colleges as the only educational provider is inherently unstable, and sport scholarships, like vouchers, were intended as temporal solutions to give government time to implement fully free public education, but we all know what happens with "temporal solutions", specially with the incentives of grift and the desire of segregation.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
How does a non-school based sports league syphon funds from public education?
All the funds being used for school sports now being taken from schools, probably moreso.
How? The school board is going to start sending part of it's budget to the local soccer league somehow?
Les money gets sent to the school. Same way vouchers drain money from schools.
+5
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
We can still fund physical education and health classes without tying it to a scholarship sweepstakes for 5% of those lucky enough
Privatization is bad so we should keep sports tied to schools.
If they get privatized then it means kids aren't going to have a bus from school to take them to a game. They're going to need rides that parents might not be able to provide since they have to work.
And of course there's going to be a cost to play the sports which excludes people from lower economic backgrounds.
Like....what is the problem supposed to be here? That some places are absolutely insane about high school football? Sure. "No more sports in school" isn't a fix because it's a fantasy. That some kids can only get into college through sports? Yeah. That sucks. Ending athletic scholarship doesn't make school affordable, it just kills a path to high education.
This might only apply to hockey, but in the USA the actual serious players are also not in the school leagues.
NBA was doing the G-league, but announced they are canceling it now that colleges can pay players. Not sure about high school vs private travel leagues for basketball, I think it's probably a mix?
Also not sure about soccer or baseball, I know little league is not a school thing.
But like swimming, cross country, track and field, those school sports are filled with unserious people just playing a game with friends, there's more to school sports in the US than football.
Burtletoy on
+1
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Like....what is the problem supposed to be here? That some places are absolutely insane about high school football? Sure. "No more sports in school" isn't a fix because it's a fantasy. That some kids can only get into college through sports? Yeah. That sucks. Ending athletic scholarship doesn't make school affordable, it just kills a path to high education.
It’s not a viable path to higher education and never was
"We'll replace this government program with a web of clubs, charities and hald charities and it'll be fine" is not the kind of argument I'd expect to hear here, but it also raises the question of.....why? If the end result is just as much youth athletics what are you accomplishing?
+4
HerrCronIt that wickedly supports taxationRegistered Userregular
One thing that strikes me whenever this conversation comes up is the weird reaction a lot of what seems like mostly Americans have where they act like if school didn't run sports, they wouldn't exist. School sports aren't that big a thing other places and non-school-based sports leagues just fill the gaps. And without the weird tie-in to the education system.
I can understand why some people feel that way, mainly because if you've had this infrastructure for producing professional athletes welded into you education system since what feels like forever, decoupling them would feel like you'd have to keep one but not the other.
But there are definitely ways to do it, and you could transpose them onto America, like the academy system for football used in the UK and Europe.
But that has it's own pitfalls, and honestly you'd also need something like the equivalent of the FA on at least a per state level to help fund the grass roots teams and league structures that feed the academies, but on the plus side, that should help ease the financial burden on individual clubs and make things more accessible.
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0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
"We'll replace this government program with a web of clubs, charities and hald charities and it'll be fine" is not the kind of argument I'd expect to hear here, but it also raises the question of.....why? If the end result is just as much youth athletics what are you accomplishing?
- Making the system much more opt-in
- Allowing for schools to use their enormous athletics budgets toward education and vocational training
- Minimizing youth injury
- Obviating the youth sports-to-pro sports pipeline from education altogether
Sometimes it felt like the school sports program was assimilating the budget of other programs
Mostly I wished I could use the school gym equipment, but that was reserved for the athletes
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I know this is a conversation that's been simmering in multiple threads, but I'm unfamiliar with the arguments. A quick summary would be greatly appreciated.
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I know this is a conversation that's been simmering in multiple threads, but I'm unfamiliar with the arguments. A quick summary would be greatly appreciated.
- Republicans want to force trans kids to participate in sports according to the gender assigned at birth. Their reasons for this generally include “trans people may have unfair physical advantages,” and, “girls sports is a big deal for college scholarships,” and, “ew, gross, queer people,”
- Some people think all trans kids should be able to play in the sports that best correlate to their gender identity. Some people think it should be based on a case-by-case basis with clear provisions to ensure there aren’t actually any advantages. Some people think school sports should be withdrawn altogether to obviate the issue as well as provide additional benefits to the other parts of matriculation.
- 🤘San Dimas High School football rules🤘
"We'll replace this government program with a web of clubs, charities and hald charities and it'll be fine" is not the kind of argument I'd expect to hear here, but it also raises the question of.....why? If the end result is just as much youth athletics what are you accomplishing?
- Making the system much more opt-in
- Allowing for schools to use their enormous athletics budgets toward education and vocational training
- Minimizing youth injury
- Obviating the youth sports-to-pro sports pipeline from education altogether
To address these point by point
Unless something has changed since I was a kid, they're all opt in
Why do we think this is what would happen when local governments could just cut taxes and restrict school budgets?
I thought we were replacing school sports with clubs and non profits without any real interruption in availability? How does that reduce injuries? If anything a patchwork of random programs seems like an invitation for later safety standards.
You just said it wasn't a viable path to higher education. The vast majority of students who do grade school sports just think they're fun. Maybe they get some tiny amount of money because they were the best volleyball player at their local high-school and it pays for a text book.
What if instead of letting trans kids play sports we made it so poor people cannot play sports?
Well we don’t have a national imperative to ensure underprivileged children can get their brains knocked in just the same as affluent kids in hopes of 5% of them getting the chance to do it for another 4+ years
We do have a national imperative to educate children while they’re at school and provide for them a pathway to meaningful higher education and employment if they wish.
Do you think physical education and training has no place in childhood schooling?
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I mean, maybe we can solve this without removing high school sports if we outlawed athletic scholarships? But I see that a more difficult measure to sell than wholesale separation. And it still doesn’t safeguard against the loss of educational opportunity so rife in today’s dynamic.
Hey if we want to reframe the argument to be only about US college Football, that's fine, but I am absolutely never talking about Football, college or pro, cause I don't care about football
Burtletoy on
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I mean, maybe we can solve this without removing high school sports if we outlawed athletic scholarships? But I see that a more difficult measure to sell than wholesale separation. And it still doesn’t safeguard against the loss of educational opportunity so rife in today’s dynamic.
How is ending school sports less of a lift than ending athletic scholarships?
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Hey if we want to reframe the argument to be only about US Football, that's fine, but I am absolutely never talking about Football, cause I don't care about it
I oppose anything that:
- provides scholarships
- allows for routine severe injury as a matter of course
- takes time and money away from the school’s duty to provide education
- diminishes educational and professional opportunities vis a vis mandatory practices and gym time, control over class selection, and demands allowance for reduced scholastic participation.
If you can figure this all out and keep both school sports and those standards above intact, I’ll support it.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
We can still fund physical education and health classes without tying it to a scholarship sweepstakes for 5% of those lucky enough
Maybe this is just your experience talking playing high-level D1 football, but for most high school kids sports is exactly what it is supposed to be: a way to make friendships and do something fun. I coach high school basketball, and none of my kids are doing it because they are trying to get a scholarship - none of them are taller than 6' - but because it is a fun thing that they enjoy. It's that way for a wide variety of high school athletes.
If proper childhood schooling involves physical education and training, as it obviously does, then I don't see how it would matter very much if it was running track events during school hours or after school hours.
+1
minor incidentexpert in a dying field---Registered User, Transition Teamregular
I mean, I just played baseball (In HS and LL) because I love playing baseball and it was a fun game where I got to learn a lot of strategy and numbers. I had no intention of being a professional catcher, and after high school I just played in various beer leagues.
There are tons of kids out there who play sports just because they enjoy it and like the people they play with. Some go into it for the dream of a scholarship and a pro career, but that’s far from the only reason.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Do you think physical education and training has no place in childhood schooling?
Not the same thing as the collegiate scholarship pipeline, so I don’t feel this question merits much more scrutiny.
You've spent no small amount of time arguing for the end of school sports. Is it just ending scholarships now? That's a very different argument.
The version of school sports I’d be willing to support is very different from what we currently have, and I’m not pigheaded and derive little validation from winning internet points, so if there’s a tenable solution that meets my aims, I’m going to support it. I know murdering Good in its crib while waiting on Perfect to get here may be the go-to moral position for some, but it ain’t me.
Do you think physical education and training has no place in childhood schooling?
Not the same thing as the collegiate scholarship pipeline, so I don’t feel this question merits much more scrutiny.
You've spent no small amount of time arguing for the end of school sports. Is it just ending scholarships now? That's a very different argument.
The version of school sports I’d be willing to support is very different from what we currently have, and I’m not pigheaded and derive little validation from winning internet points, so if there’s a tenable solution that meets my aims, I’m going to support it. I know murdering Good in its crib while waiting on Perfect to get here may be the go-to moral position for some, but it ain’t me.
I mean your entire treatment of sports in US high schools is not representative of the norm. Its almost entirely just what it looks like. Kids playing games.
Privatizing school sports is just introducing a new wedge to siphon yet more funds from public education to fill the coffers of privately-owned institutions.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
We can still fund physical education and health classes without tying it to a scholarship sweepstakes for 5% of those lucky enough
Again, most student athletes don't tie it to scholarship. They're just playing games they're passionate about.
You are very adamant that your personal experience is the norm and its just not.
Posts
I say unto thee: nay
Quick heads up: I will not respond to being pilloried, but am open to any good-faith argument and realize this is a conversation with a great room for nuance and specifics.
Lemme give the thread my CV
- Football player from age 5-23
- Five years playing center and deep snapper in the NCAA with various teams, including TCU
- Won two championships
- Trans af 🏳️⚧️
They’d just apply the same arguments from that front where they twisted freedom of religion and free association to attack trans youth in privately organized youth sports.
It’s fundamentally farcical
And don't get me started on teams. Homo homini lupus.
There are better ways to get kids to move, healthier activities, less damaging dynamics.
Privatizing education, school vouchers, etc., is all inexorably tied to school segregation.
I think the amount of funding that goes to school athletic programs as opposed to the academic budget is certainly an issue, but privatization is not the solution to that, any more than burning a building down is the solution to a termite problem.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
How does a non-school based sports league syphon funds from public education?
If the question is "should people y be excluded from thing x" the conversation should almost never be "get rid of x". Not right then. Equality is not conditional. If you want to get rid of x, do that separately.
(see also marriage, bathrooms, the military, etc etc etc)
All the funds being used for school sports now being taken from schools, probably moreso.
Which countries are you referring to here? Like at a minimum north American countries like Canada/USA/Mexico all have large high school sport organizations, not going to look up central American countries, but it seems pretty common
Swimming and tennis and track are all in UK schools, too, if the sitcoms based in Britain I've seen are to be believed.
Of course athletic programs can be shit for kids. Everything can be made to be shit.
Nah. Canada has school sports but they are pretty whatever and the actual serious players are not in the school leagues.
And that's gets even more true at the post-secondary level. If you want an athletic scholarship, you go south to the US.
How? The school board is going to start sending part of it's budget to the local soccer league somehow?
Les money gets sent to the school. Same way vouchers drain money from schools.
We can still fund physical education and health classes without tying it to a scholarship sweepstakes for 5% of those lucky enough
If they get privatized then it means kids aren't going to have a bus from school to take them to a game. They're going to need rides that parents might not be able to provide since they have to work.
And of course there's going to be a cost to play the sports which excludes people from lower economic backgrounds.
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
NBA was doing the G-league, but announced they are canceling it now that colleges can pay players. Not sure about high school vs private travel leagues for basketball, I think it's probably a mix?
Also not sure about soccer or baseball, I know little league is not a school thing.
But like swimming, cross country, track and field, those school sports are filled with unserious people just playing a game with friends, there's more to school sports in the US than football.
It’s not a viable path to higher education and never was
I can understand why some people feel that way, mainly because if you've had this infrastructure for producing professional athletes welded into you education system since what feels like forever, decoupling them would feel like you'd have to keep one but not the other.
But there are definitely ways to do it, and you could transpose them onto America, like the academy system for football used in the UK and Europe.
But that has it's own pitfalls, and honestly you'd also need something like the equivalent of the FA on at least a per state level to help fund the grass roots teams and league structures that feed the academies, but on the plus side, that should help ease the financial burden on individual clubs and make things more accessible.
Celeste [Switch] - She'll be wrestling with inner demons when she comes...
Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age [Switch] - Sit down and watch our game play itself
- Making the system much more opt-in
- Allowing for schools to use their enormous athletics budgets toward education and vocational training
- Minimizing youth injury
- Obviating the youth sports-to-pro sports pipeline from education altogether
Mostly I wished I could use the school gym equipment, but that was reserved for the athletes
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
- Republicans want to force trans kids to participate in sports according to the gender assigned at birth. Their reasons for this generally include “trans people may have unfair physical advantages,” and, “girls sports is a big deal for college scholarships,” and, “ew, gross, queer people,”
- Some people think all trans kids should be able to play in the sports that best correlate to their gender identity. Some people think it should be based on a case-by-case basis with clear provisions to ensure there aren’t actually any advantages. Some people think school sports should be withdrawn altogether to obviate the issue as well as provide additional benefits to the other parts of matriculation.
- 🤘San Dimas High School football rules🤘
To address these point by point
Unless something has changed since I was a kid, they're all opt in
Why do we think this is what would happen when local governments could just cut taxes and restrict school budgets?
I thought we were replacing school sports with clubs and non profits without any real interruption in availability? How does that reduce injuries? If anything a patchwork of random programs seems like an invitation for later safety standards.
You just said it wasn't a viable path to higher education. The vast majority of students who do grade school sports just think they're fun. Maybe they get some tiny amount of money because they were the best volleyball player at their local high-school and it pays for a text book.
Well we don’t have a national imperative to ensure underprivileged children can get their brains knocked in just the same as affluent kids in hopes of 5% of them getting the chance to do it for another 4+ years
We do have a national imperative to educate children while they’re at school and provide for them a pathway to meaningful higher education and employment if they wish.
Not the same thing as the collegiate scholarship pipeline, so I don’t feel this question merits much more scrutiny.
How is ending school sports less of a lift than ending athletic scholarships?
I oppose anything that:
- provides scholarships
- allows for routine severe injury as a matter of course
- takes time and money away from the school’s duty to provide education
- diminishes educational and professional opportunities vis a vis mandatory practices and gym time, control over class selection, and demands allowance for reduced scholastic participation.
If you can figure this all out and keep both school sports and those standards above intact, I’ll support it.
You've spent no small amount of time arguing for the end of school sports. Is it just ending scholarships now? That's a very different argument.
Maybe this is just your experience talking playing high-level D1 football, but for most high school kids sports is exactly what it is supposed to be: a way to make friendships and do something fun. I coach high school basketball, and none of my kids are doing it because they are trying to get a scholarship - none of them are taller than 6' - but because it is a fun thing that they enjoy. It's that way for a wide variety of high school athletes.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
There are tons of kids out there who play sports just because they enjoy it and like the people they play with. Some go into it for the dream of a scholarship and a pro career, but that’s far from the only reason.
The version of school sports I’d be willing to support is very different from what we currently have, and I’m not pigheaded and derive little validation from winning internet points, so if there’s a tenable solution that meets my aims, I’m going to support it. I know murdering Good in its crib while waiting on Perfect to get here may be the go-to moral position for some, but it ain’t me.
I mean your entire treatment of sports in US high schools is not representative of the norm. Its almost entirely just what it looks like. Kids playing games.
Again, most student athletes don't tie it to scholarship. They're just playing games they're passionate about.
You are very adamant that your personal experience is the norm and its just not.