I don't know about you, but I know that I expressly seek out games wherein I am a badass who saves lives and gets the woman when I am in the throes of depression.
I don't understand why all you fucks are arguing over the 'type' of addiction an MMO may or may not have when the psychological effects (both carrot and stick, if I may remind you of Bill Roper's(?) speech) are plain to see.
There are different 'types' of depression, too. If you're just feeling down for a day or two over a reversal of fortune in some way, then ways to elevate your mood make sense and are beneficial.
If it's structural depression, and it's caused by neurochemistry, people need to see a psychiatrist or psychologist to work out a way to change their chemical composition. This includes pill-popping, of which I am generally skeptical, but it still has its uses, and changes in diet, sleep patterns and exercise.
If it's structural depression and its' caused by environmental factors - physical abuse by a relative, having an icky job, having no obvious future prospects for success and happiness, or being around bad people, then video games usually retard progress on dealing with the issue. Games become an escapist crutch that forestalls people fixing their real world problems.
It's not that it doesn't help the people who are isolated cope with their problem. I am sure I can find anecdotes for people whose only possible respite will be MMORPGs, but for most people most of the time, its net effect is detrimental rather than beneficial.
Didn't you just say that everything is chemicals, i.e. that all depression (and all other psychological states) are caused by neurochemistry, i.e. invalidate your own point?
All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
My point is that in cases where depression is due to a fleeting event - i.e. a bad day at work, temporary self-medication (i.e elevating endorphins/blood sugar by eating, playing games, exercise, partying) will fix the problem. If you have a permanent neurological disorder like an addictive personality or are bipolar, then game-playing won't fix it.
Similarly if your unhappiness is chronic and caused by an external factor, like an abusive boss, then game playing won't fix your depression and is going to add another layer of pathology to your problems, where the proper thing to do is to change jobs. However in either of those scenarios, the issue is chemical. Treatment options vary depending on the person and their situation. Becoming addicted to video games is not going to help someone treat their depression, and it will likely add to it. It's like eating candy bars when you're hungry - it may help in the short term, but it won't fix nutritional problems and it will rot your teeth out.
The parallel to depression is that addiction itself is always chemically based - the reason anything is habit-forming is because it triggers endorphins when you do it. It's a simple stimulus-response. If there's a difference in the addiction you get with heroin and in video games, it's because you get more endorphins from heroin and introduce them exogenously. You can't "will-away" a heroin addiction any more than you can a video game addiction - you'll go less bonkers during withdrawal and cope better, because the initial endorphin response wasn't as severe, but you'll still find yourself with withdrawal symptoms.
Everything you've listend as being "necessary for success" in WoW I see as being self-imposed, or peer-imposed goals and limitations. The fact that your guild requires a certain level of attendance or dedication is not the fault of WoW's but of your guild's. There's nothing preventing you from joining a more casual-friendly guild who only raids once every weekend if you must raid.
Raiding is a mechanism that was implemented into the game for people with the desire and disposable time to take advantage of them. If you don't have time or the inclination to raid, no one says you HAVE to, except maybe your guild or your own expectations about yourself in the game.
We don't have to agree to disagree because you don't understand what I am saying.
When the best possible gear in the game can only be attained by raiding, which is something into which you have to put in huge time investments -- and big chunks at that -- what you just said is invalidated.
I mean, nobody in their right mind enjoys getting killed left and right in battlegrounds or while questing out in the world. I used to not raid, and I had the best gear that could be attainable with that playstyle, and when I went to the forums after getting continuously one or two-shotted by hardcore raiders, I was told, by CMs no less, that "I needed to get better gear, which is attainable through raiding or faction grinds". Now, I already addressed the problem with raiding. With faction grinds, it's true that one could enjoy them at their own pace, putting in small bits of time here and there and eventually get the rewards. The problem is that by the time one accomplishes that, a new content patch comes out, with more factions that offer more powerful loot, and the "end-game" moves forward, effectively leaving casual players behind.
Now, Guild Wars got around this problem perfectly by limiting the effect of gear on characters' power level. What this means is that there is only one thing that determines the outcome of a fight: skill. If WoW was like that, as in, if it was less gear dependent and more skill-dependent, perhaps people would feel less pressured to raid in order to even hope of standing a chance in PvP, which is, you have to admit, a huge -- if not the central -- part of the game.
Societal pressure, in this case, is what is "forcing" you to dedicate all this time to the game, not Blizzard. Heck, Blizzard has even implemented a limit on how often you can re-do an instance to prevent people from dedicating all of their time to doing and re-doing an instance. You have to wait a week before going through an instance again after you've cleared it! If Blizzard really wanted you to stay in the game all the time, why wouldn't they make all the epic loot available at all times by allowing you to re-set an instance as often as you want?
The CMs, on various occasions, gave two reasons for why the raid lock-out timer exists:
1- It would ruin the economy in the game.
2- It would put even more pressure on Blizzard to come up with new content quickly, as existing content would be beaten within a matter of days.
Again, the lock-out mechanism doesn't exist because they are somehow concerned about the well-being of their players. It exists purely for Blizzard's benefit.
From what I can tell, you resent the game from "forcing" you to dedicate so much time to it. I maintain that the game has done no such thing, that the "forcing" is happening in the form of your teamates and your self-imposed desire to be "uber", for the sole sake of being able to compete with other "uber" people on your server, bragging rights, or whatever.
I'm having plenty of fun in WoW with my crappy green gear, thank you very much.
Perhaps you play on a PvE server? Because on PvP servers this is definitely not the case; you cannot hope to survive in green gear. Even on PvE servers, your effectiveness on arena games and battlegrounds will be very limited (depending on class of course), especially when you go up against a hardcore guild.
Romatic Undead and ege02, you guys are a great example of the difference in views of PvE players and PvP players.
The design of most single player and massively multiplayer RPG’s is based on the old Dungeons & Dragons design where power is defined by level and gear. On the PvE side obtaining the higher level blue or purple gear or raid armor sets is almost pointless unless you intend on doing the dungeons further up the raid ladder. In a PvP setting this kind of gear can become the only way you’ll survive the trip between towns. It is also where the biggest flaw in the Dungeons & Dragons design becomes apparent and the real possibility of addiction comes into play for certain types of people.
The Dungeons & Dragons formula works very well in single player games with a defined ending. This has been proven time and time again by such games as Fallout, Knights of the Old Republic, Baldur’s Gate, and many others. The defined time frame allows the developer to tell their story without leaving anyone out. In a MMO setting not only is there no real ending the developers need to make sure everyone who plays the game can be the hero too. Have you ever noticed how many kill quota quests and loot collection quests World of Warcraft has? These kinds of quests make up about 70% to 80% of the quests you do. Ever notice how these kinds of quests are amplified to the extreme when the quest chains run out? Once the quests run out all that is left is raiding or grinding rep or honor which is just more collection questing. It’s really easy to start the “just a few more points†thinking and end up spending hours grinding rep, honor, or experience. I’ve done it a few times myself. These kinds of games can become a real problem for someone who is inclined to purse something until it’s over.
If you add someone who has an addictive or obsessive personality or if you mix in some personal problems like a recent loss in the family or difficulty in fitting in and you can have real recipe for addiction. I doubt developers/distributors are doing any of this on purpose it just that they seem to have a really hard time trying new things when so much money is at stake. It is past time for some changes to be made in MMO development. The Guild Wars development lead said they used Magic: The Gathering as a basis for Guild Wars and it works really well. Best of all there are no needs for grinding.
I’d like to see some changes in single player development as well. Mostly I’d like to see developers finally get it through their think heads that being told where we can and can not save is no fun at all. The argument of ruining the tension doesn’t work when the developers of the only real stealth game, Thief, allowed their players to save anywhere. They figured out people who want the tension will play the level from beginning to end without saving.
I don't know about you, but I know that I expressly seek out games wherein I am a badass who saves lives and gets the woman when I am in the throes of depression.
I don't understand why all you fucks are arguing over the 'type' of addiction an MMO may or may not have when the psychological effects (both carrot and stick, if I may remind you of Bill Roper's(?) speech) are plain to see.
There are different 'types' of depression, too. If you're just feeling down for a day or two over a reversal of fortune in some way, then ways to elevate your mood make sense and are beneficial.
If it's structural depression, and it's caused by neurochemistry, people need to see a psychiatrist or psychologist to work out a way to change their chemical composition. This includes pill-popping, of which I am generally skeptical, but it still has its uses, and changes in diet, sleep patterns and exercise.
If it's structural depression and its' caused by environmental factors - physical abuse by a relative, having an icky job, having no obvious future prospects for success and happiness, or being around bad people, then video games usually retard progress on dealing with the issue. Games become an escapist crutch that forestalls people fixing their real world problems.
It's not that it doesn't help the people who are isolated cope with their problem. I am sure I can find anecdotes for people whose only possible respite will be MMORPGs, but for most people most of the time, its net effect is detrimental rather than beneficial.
Didn't you just say that everything is chemicals, i.e. that all depression (and all other psychological states) are caused by neurochemistry, i.e. invalidate your own point?
All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
My point is that in cases where depression is due to a fleeting event - i.e. a bad day at work, temporary self-medication (i.e elevating endorphins/blood sugar by eating, playing games, exercise, partying) will fix the problem. If you have a permanent neurological disorder like an addictive personality or are bipolar, then game-playing won't fix it.
Similarly if your unhappiness is chronic and caused by an external factor, like an abusive boss, then game playing won't fix your depression and is going to add another layer of pathology to your problems, where the proper thing to do is to change jobs. However in either of those scenarios, the issue is chemical. Treatment options vary depending on the person and their situation. Becoming addicted to video games is not going to help someone treat their depression, and it will likely add to it. It's like eating candy bars when you're hungry - it may help in the short term, but it won't fix nutritional problems and it will rot your teeth out.
The parallel to depression is that addiction itself is always chemically based - the reason anything is habit-forming is because it triggers endorphins when you do it. It's a simple stimulus-response. If there's a difference in the addiction you get with heroin and in video games, it's because you get more endorphins from heroin and introduce them exogenously. You can't "will-away" a heroin addiction any more than you can a video game addiction - you'll go less bonkers during withdrawal and cope better, because the initial endorphin response wasn't as severe, but you'll still find yourself with withdrawal symptoms.
I'm still waiting for the part where you show that you can't kick an addiction because there's no such thing as will. No one ever claimed that willpower was magic, except you.
Didn't you just say that everything is chemicals, i.e. that all depression (and all other psychological states) are caused by neurochemistry, i.e. invalidate your own point?
All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
I'm still waiting for the part where you show that you can't kick an addiction because there's no such thing as will. No one ever claimed that willpower was magic, except you.
Okay, I'm going to play ref here for a second because I think I see the disconnect between you and kali.
It's pretty common for somebody who is suffering from a psych condition to be told to "just snap out of it" by a family member or spouse, or to even have this internal voice in their head saying that they should be able to cure themselves out of pure force of will. So those who work in the mental health field have to fight against this attitude so frequently that they sometimes ride the pendulum a little too far in the other direction by claiming that raw willpower is totally ineffective. It's not totally ineffective, it's just that raw willpower typically has to be strategically channeled into positive external actions.
Yes, some people can kick depression or addiction by sitting on their couch and trying really, really hard to fight their mood or cravings. Many (most?) can't, though, and many (most?) of those feel guilty or impotent because they can't. Those people need to be told that it's okay that they can't recover from raw willpower alone, and explaining that depression and addiction are complex neurological processes is a schema that helps them channel what willpower they do have into effective strategies.
I think that's what kaliyama was trying to say.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I don't know if this or something very similar has been posted, but I just read this in a post on Andrew Sullivan's blog:
I'm 23 years old and have been playing MMOs since I was 13. While I don't play 55 hours a week, I can assure you that this is not uncommon. I specifically remember when I was about 14 years old and had befriended a blacksmith in Ultima Online. One day, he told me his weekly schedule. From Monday through Friday, he worked from home for 8 hours, then played Ultima Online for 10 hours, then slept for 6 hours. On the weekend, he played for 18 hours, then slept for 6.
It's easy at first glance to take these numbers and think that there is something serious wrong, which is why so many people start calling it an addiction or a disease, but it is important to understand the full picture. Most people who play excessively do so, because the social life in these games is more valuable than the one they have in their "real life". They, sadly, had little to do with their spare time and would spend it watching t.v. or some other mindless activity. With MMO's, they have the opportunity to build relationships, be challenged, and have a great time when they aren't at their 9-5 and at a very low cost. These MMO's such as World of Warcraft and Everquest are not popular because they are a drug, rather, they are popular because they add real value to someones life. These worlds are not fake, they're merely intangible.
I don't actually know how you feel about them, but I'm hoping I have shed some light on why 55 hours a week is neither unbelievable nor bad.
Loren Michael on
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
Didn't you just say that everything is chemicals, i.e. that all depression (and all other psychological states) are caused by neurochemistry, i.e. invalidate your own point?
All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
I'm still waiting for the part where you show that you can't kick an addiction because there's no such thing as will. No one ever claimed that willpower was magic, except you.
Okay, I'm going to play ref here for a second because I think I see the disconnect between you and kali.
It's pretty common for somebody who is suffering from a psych condition to be told to "just snap out of it" by a family member or spouse, or to even have this internal voice in their head saying that they should be able to cure themselves out of pure force of will. So those who work in the mental health field have to fight against this attitude so frequently that they sometimes ride the pendulum a little too far in the other direction by claiming that raw willpower is totally ineffective. It's not totally ineffective, it's just that raw willpower typically has to be strategically channeled into positive external actions.
Yes, some people can kick depression or addiction by sitting on their couch and trying really, really hard to fight their mood or cravings. Many (most?) can't, though, and many (most?) of those feel guilty or impotent because they can't. Those people need to be told that it's okay that they can't recover from raw willpower alone, and explaining that depression and addiction are complex neurological processes is a schema that helps them channel what willpower they do have into effective strategies.
I think that's what kaliyama was trying to say.
That's more or less what I was trying to get across; thanks for articulating it for me. (Assuming that VC agrees now. If not, thanks for nothing. :P )
I read an article about the AMA trying to classify video games as a mental illness in the paper a few weeks ago, which really got me angry because it lumped all video games together as a source of addiction. The article's "standards" for determining whether a person was addicted or not were so general that they could be applied to any activity. While I certainly think a person should not play video games to the point where they ignore personal responsibilities, the general masses should be aware that there are a lot of factors aside from addiction that cause excessive video gaming, specifically MMO's.
I'll post a few examples that clearly show that there are many different, but common reasons why a person may spend an "excessive" amount of time playing video games:
1. Hiding from real life problems.
Some MMO players are online a lot because they have serious problems in their real life that may be short or long term that they want to ignore.
2. Boredom, lack of anything fufilling to do.
Certain types of people, such as college students or retired older people simply have a lot of time to spend playing while having the ability to place priority on their responsibilities.
3. Playing due to social pressures.
The MMO's design inherently makes it a social game where teaming up with other players is an important part of progressing one's character(s). Sometimes a player may be pressured to play more in order to please in game/real life friends or participate in more time consuming content.
While I have never seen any accurate statistics to show how prevalent any of these examples in any specific game, they do show that there are other compelling factors that have nothing to do with addiction that cause players to spend a lot of time playing MMO's. If a player has an addictive personality or serious real life issues he needs to take care of, going to a "gaming detox lab" would not help the individual with a problem that affects every facet of his life.
It is very disappointing to see video games presented in such a sensationalist manner by both media and medical professionals. The article that the OP refers to treats video games like rock music was in treated in the 80's. Video games are the uninformed adult's scapegoat of choice for explaining the current younger generation's failings. While some persons truly have addictive personalities and really do not have the ability to control themselves while playing video games, not all people that spend a lot of time playing a video game because they believe it is "absolutely nessessary" to their mental stability.
Didn't you just say that everything is chemicals, i.e. that all depression (and all other psychological states) are caused by neurochemistry, i.e. invalidate your own point?
All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
I'm still waiting for the part where you show that you can't kick an addiction because there's no such thing as will. No one ever claimed that willpower was magic, except you.
Okay, I'm going to play ref here for a second because I think I see the disconnect between you and kali.
It's pretty common for somebody who is suffering from a psych condition to be told to "just snap out of it" by a family member or spouse, or to even have this internal voice in their head saying that they should be able to cure themselves out of pure force of will. So those who work in the mental health field have to fight against this attitude so frequently that they sometimes ride the pendulum a little too far in the other direction by claiming that raw willpower is totally ineffective. It's not totally ineffective, it's just that raw willpower typically has to be strategically channeled into positive external actions.
Yes, some people can kick depression or addiction by sitting on their couch and trying really, really hard to fight their mood or cravings. Many (most?) can't, though, and many (most?) of those feel guilty or impotent because they can't. Those people need to be told that it's okay that they can't recover from raw willpower alone, and explaining that depression and addiction are complex neurological processes is a schema that helps them channel what willpower they do have into effective strategies.
I think that's what kaliyama was trying to say.
That's more or less what I was trying to get across; thanks for articulating it for me. (Assuming that VC agrees now. If not, thanks for nothing. :P )
As I already said, you're the only one who ever assumed willpower was magic, my argument has only ever been that it exists (which you claim it doesn't, repeatedly).
The article's "standards" for determining whether a person was addicted or not were so general that they could be applied to any activity.
No, they can't.
A condition is only a mental illness if it interferes with your life or causes undue distress. This is implicit in the definition of any mental illness. You can think of this criterion zero: the hidden criterion that all health professionals understand but does appear in the definition of any one illness. So when you're reading articles on this subject, mentally insert criterion zero at the beginning of the criteria list.
While I certainly think a person should not play video games to the point where they ignore personal responsibilities, the general masses should be aware that there are a lot of factors aside from addiction that cause excessive video gaming, specifically MMO's.
I'll post a few examples that clearly show that there are many different, but common reasons why a person may spend an "excessive" amount of time playing video games:
1. Hiding from real life problems.
2. Boredom, lack of anything fufilling to do.
3. Playing due to social pressures.
These are not "factors aside of addiction." There are risk factors for addiction. If somebody told me that they were playing WoW for 60 hours a week because they were bored with life, or hiding from their problems, or because they were succumbing to peer pressure, I'd urge them to quit and go get counseling, because I'd be more worried that they were addicted having heard that.
As I already said, you're the only one who ever assumed willpower was magic, my argument has only ever been that it exists (which you claim it doesn't, repeatedly).
If kaliyama said something that could be strictly interpreted to that effect, I don't think he meant it.
Most people who play excessively do so, because the social life in these games is more valuable than the one they have in their "real life".
That itself is indicative of a problem. Online relationships do not substitute for real life relationships. If a relationship is both real-life and online, that's great, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people who have no social contact outside of an MMO.
They, sadly, had little to do with their spare time and would spend it watching t.v. or some other mindless activity.
If somebody, when deprived of one unhealthy activity, would substitute it with a more unhealthy activity, such does not imply that his participation in the first activity was not excessive.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
A condition is only a mental illness if it interferes with your life or causes undue distress. This is implicit in the definition of any mental illness.
And that was exactly what I was saying. If a person participates in any activity for an excess amount of time, it will probably stress the person in some way and have a negative impact on his health. The article which I read (which was probably in a different paper than the one the OP read) was using the implicit definition of a mental illness to suggest that video games as a whole were a major cause of addiction. While addiction obviously requires environmental factors to manifest, condemning video games as a sole contributing factor to the destruction of someone's life is extremely illogical. For example, there is a difference between the hardcore MMOer and the average joe that plays the wii on the weekend with a few friends. Is average joe's behavior indicative of addiction? I sure hope not. Video games can be enjoyed as a fun past time and should not be condemned as the popular scapegoat of this generation much like rock music was in the 80's.
While I certainly think a person should not play video games to the point where they ignore personal responsibilities, the general masses should be aware that there are a lot of factors aside from addiction that cause excessive video gaming, specifically MMO's.
I'll post a few examples that clearly show that there are many different, but common reasons why a person may spend an "excessive" amount of time playing video games:
1. Hiding from real life problems.
2. Boredom, lack of anything fufilling to do.
3. Playing due to social pressures.
These are not "factors aside of addiction." There are risk factors for addiction. If somebody told me that they were playing WoW for 60 hours a week because they were bored with life, or hiding from their problems, or because they were succumbing to peer pressure, I'd urge them to quit and go get counseling, because I'd be more worried that they were addicted having heard that.
I agree people that are playing for those reasons should probably get some counseling with little exception, however, they may not nesscessarily need counseling for addiction because their "excessive playtime" could be indicative of different mental illnesseses. If a person already has previously documented mental problems or an addictive personality, those problems would manifest themselves in any activity they chose to participate in and not nesscessarily show up just because they decided to play an MMO. Therefore, the factors I listed are not excusively "risk factors for addiction" and can exist without being attached to mental illness of "addition". For example, I have a close friend who use to play WoW a lot after he found out the girl he was going to marry cheated on him. After he found a new girlfriend in a few months he promptly canceled his account and hasn't exhibited any "excessive" behavior since. I also know of an old retired lady(who is bored at home) that plays enough to amount to a partime job, yet still makes her cooking classes/family vacations a priority. Both of these examples depict individuals that played for the reasons I listed, yet I would certainly not label either one as "addicts". While I am(once again) fully aware that my ancedotal evidence is not indicative of trend/majority, it shows that the label "addiction" should not be thrown around as it has been recently until studies/statistics prove otherwise.
Though video game addiction is not included as a diagnosis in either the DSM or the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, it is suggested that the symptoms of a video game addiction would be similar to that of other psychological addictions. Like compulsive gambling, video game addiction is said to be an impulse control disorder. While no diagnostic criteria have yet been established for video game addiction, the symptoms of impulse control disorder include regular or repetitive displays of at least five of the following:
1. Persistent thoughts of the activity or performance of the activity.(Preoccupation)
2. Use of activity to escape problems or relieve bad mood.(Preoccupation)
3. Need for increased time spent on the activity to achieve satisfaction or diminished reward for the same amount of time spent on the activity.(Tolerance)
4. Inability to control, stop or diminish the behavior.(Loss of control)
5. Restlessness or irritability when prevented from partaking in the activity.(Withdrawal)
6. Lying to friends or family about extent of involvement with activity.(Continuance despite adverse consequences)
7. Committing illegal acts to sustain activity.(Continuance despite adverse consequences)
8. Jeopardizing or losing relationships, career or educational opportunities to pursue activity.(Continuance despite adverse consequences)
9. Relying on others to finance activity.(Continuance despite adverse consequences)
The thing is, this is much like any other child neglect case.
True, but it's still pretty fucked up. Not to mention anyone arguing against games, or arguing that games are addictive, now have that bit of ammo in their pocket. Gamers fucking over Gamers would be a decent thread.
The thing is, this is much like any other child neglect case.
True, but it's still pretty fucked up. Not to mention anyone arguing against games, or arguing that games are addictive, now have that bit of ammo in their pocket. Gamers fucking over Gamers would be a decent thread.
Man, I get flak all the time from my family about being addicted to video games and it fucking pisses me off to no end. They argue that since I don't go outside and do stuff or I don't hang out with my friends every day or what have you that I must be addicted to video games and it's ruining my social life ohnoes!
Fuck them.
Just because I don't -like- doing the shit that they're talking about doesn't mean that it's the fault of video games that I am not doing that stuff. I don't like going out to parties where people are drinking, so I don't do it. It's a fucking simple thing that they don't seem to get a grasp on and their utter ignorance and inability to understand my side of the argument makes me want to fucking punch them in the face. It's like saying the reason I don't eat salad is because I am addicted to meat. Fuck that.
As for the few sensationalized stories of idiots letting their children starve, fuck them too. The problem is the people, not the games. The people are retarded assholes who shouldn't have the ability to reproduce. It's not the fault of the game makers that stupid people end up playing their games.
This shit just makes me so unbelievably mad. I can't even think about it without it tuning into an angry, hate-filled rant in my head.
Man, I get flak all the time from my family about being addicted to video games and it fucking pisses me off to no end. They argue that since I don't go outside and do stuff or I don't hang out with my friends every day or what have you that I must be addicted to video games and it's ruining my social life ohnoes!
Fuck them.
Just because I don't -like- doing the shit that they're talking about doesn't mean that it's the fault of video games that I am not doing that stuff. I don't like going out to parties where people are drinking, so I don't do it. It's a fucking simple thing that they don't seem to get a grasp on and their utter ignorance and inability to understand my side of the argument makes me want to fucking punch them in the face. It's like saying the reason I don't eat salad is because I am addicted to meat. Fuck that.
As for the few sensationalized stories of idiots letting their children starve, fuck them too. The problem is the people, not the games. The people are retarded assholes who shouldn't have the ability to reproduce. It's not the fault of the game makers that stupid people end up playing their games.
This shit just makes me so unbelievably mad. I can't even think about it without it tuning into an angry, hate-filled rant in my head.
Sounds like you play violent games a little bit too much.
On a more serious note, my parents used to be the same way when I was growing up. They always gave me shit for playing games, and tried to regulate it non-stop. It made me very bitter; why didn't they understand my side of the argument? Why wouldn't they give me a fucking break and let me do what I want?
Right now I'm living half a world away from my parents and I'm approaching the end of my college career. And when I look back, I can say with no reservations whatsoever that they were right. I seriously regret how much I let video games stunt my social growth. Furthermore, I feel ashamed that my juvenile, rebellious attitude got in the way of me understanding this sooner.
Yeah, I had fun while growing up thanks to video games, but at the same time I wish I had listened to my parents and played less and instead picked up other, more constructive, healthy, and useful hobbies.
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All depression is neurochemical. Some external forces may cause those chemical compositions that we classify as depression. Conversely, there's no "will" that can force your brain to change its composition via "personal responsibility" or just wanting it badly enough. People that are permanently depressed aren't weak-willed, they have biological flaws.
My point is that in cases where depression is due to a fleeting event - i.e. a bad day at work, temporary self-medication (i.e elevating endorphins/blood sugar by eating, playing games, exercise, partying) will fix the problem. If you have a permanent neurological disorder like an addictive personality or are bipolar, then game-playing won't fix it.
Similarly if your unhappiness is chronic and caused by an external factor, like an abusive boss, then game playing won't fix your depression and is going to add another layer of pathology to your problems, where the proper thing to do is to change jobs. However in either of those scenarios, the issue is chemical. Treatment options vary depending on the person and their situation. Becoming addicted to video games is not going to help someone treat their depression, and it will likely add to it. It's like eating candy bars when you're hungry - it may help in the short term, but it won't fix nutritional problems and it will rot your teeth out.
The parallel to depression is that addiction itself is always chemically based - the reason anything is habit-forming is because it triggers endorphins when you do it. It's a simple stimulus-response. If there's a difference in the addiction you get with heroin and in video games, it's because you get more endorphins from heroin and introduce them exogenously. You can't "will-away" a heroin addiction any more than you can a video game addiction - you'll go less bonkers during withdrawal and cope better, because the initial endorphin response wasn't as severe, but you'll still find yourself with withdrawal symptoms.
We don't have to agree to disagree because you don't understand what I am saying.
When the best possible gear in the game can only be attained by raiding, which is something into which you have to put in huge time investments -- and big chunks at that -- what you just said is invalidated.
I mean, nobody in their right mind enjoys getting killed left and right in battlegrounds or while questing out in the world. I used to not raid, and I had the best gear that could be attainable with that playstyle, and when I went to the forums after getting continuously one or two-shotted by hardcore raiders, I was told, by CMs no less, that "I needed to get better gear, which is attainable through raiding or faction grinds". Now, I already addressed the problem with raiding. With faction grinds, it's true that one could enjoy them at their own pace, putting in small bits of time here and there and eventually get the rewards. The problem is that by the time one accomplishes that, a new content patch comes out, with more factions that offer more powerful loot, and the "end-game" moves forward, effectively leaving casual players behind.
Now, Guild Wars got around this problem perfectly by limiting the effect of gear on characters' power level. What this means is that there is only one thing that determines the outcome of a fight: skill. If WoW was like that, as in, if it was less gear dependent and more skill-dependent, perhaps people would feel less pressured to raid in order to even hope of standing a chance in PvP, which is, you have to admit, a huge -- if not the central -- part of the game.
The CMs, on various occasions, gave two reasons for why the raid lock-out timer exists:
1- It would ruin the economy in the game.
2- It would put even more pressure on Blizzard to come up with new content quickly, as existing content would be beaten within a matter of days.
Again, the lock-out mechanism doesn't exist because they are somehow concerned about the well-being of their players. It exists purely for Blizzard's benefit.
Perhaps you play on a PvE server? Because on PvP servers this is definitely not the case; you cannot hope to survive in green gear. Even on PvE servers, your effectiveness on arena games and battlegrounds will be very limited (depending on class of course), especially when you go up against a hardcore guild.
The design of most single player and massively multiplayer RPG’s is based on the old Dungeons & Dragons design where power is defined by level and gear. On the PvE side obtaining the higher level blue or purple gear or raid armor sets is almost pointless unless you intend on doing the dungeons further up the raid ladder. In a PvP setting this kind of gear can become the only way you’ll survive the trip between towns. It is also where the biggest flaw in the Dungeons & Dragons design becomes apparent and the real possibility of addiction comes into play for certain types of people.
The Dungeons & Dragons formula works very well in single player games with a defined ending. This has been proven time and time again by such games as Fallout, Knights of the Old Republic, Baldur’s Gate, and many others. The defined time frame allows the developer to tell their story without leaving anyone out. In a MMO setting not only is there no real ending the developers need to make sure everyone who plays the game can be the hero too. Have you ever noticed how many kill quota quests and loot collection quests World of Warcraft has? These kinds of quests make up about 70% to 80% of the quests you do. Ever notice how these kinds of quests are amplified to the extreme when the quest chains run out? Once the quests run out all that is left is raiding or grinding rep or honor which is just more collection questing. It’s really easy to start the “just a few more points†thinking and end up spending hours grinding rep, honor, or experience. I’ve done it a few times myself. These kinds of games can become a real problem for someone who is inclined to purse something until it’s over.
If you add someone who has an addictive or obsessive personality or if you mix in some personal problems like a recent loss in the family or difficulty in fitting in and you can have real recipe for addiction. I doubt developers/distributors are doing any of this on purpose it just that they seem to have a really hard time trying new things when so much money is at stake. It is past time for some changes to be made in MMO development. The Guild Wars development lead said they used Magic: The Gathering as a basis for Guild Wars and it works really well. Best of all there are no needs for grinding.
I’d like to see some changes in single player development as well. Mostly I’d like to see developers finally get it through their think heads that being told where we can and can not save is no fun at all. The argument of ruining the tension doesn’t work when the developers of the only real stealth game, Thief, allowed their players to save anywhere. They figured out people who want the tension will play the level from beginning to end without saving.
Rant over.
I'm still waiting for the part where you show that you can't kick an addiction because there's no such thing as will. No one ever claimed that willpower was magic, except you.
Okay, I'm going to play ref here for a second because I think I see the disconnect between you and kali.
It's pretty common for somebody who is suffering from a psych condition to be told to "just snap out of it" by a family member or spouse, or to even have this internal voice in their head saying that they should be able to cure themselves out of pure force of will. So those who work in the mental health field have to fight against this attitude so frequently that they sometimes ride the pendulum a little too far in the other direction by claiming that raw willpower is totally ineffective. It's not totally ineffective, it's just that raw willpower typically has to be strategically channeled into positive external actions.
Yes, some people can kick depression or addiction by sitting on their couch and trying really, really hard to fight their mood or cravings. Many (most?) can't, though, and many (most?) of those feel guilty or impotent because they can't. Those people need to be told that it's okay that they can't recover from raw willpower alone, and explaining that depression and addiction are complex neurological processes is a schema that helps them channel what willpower they do have into effective strategies.
I think that's what kaliyama was trying to say.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That's more or less what I was trying to get across; thanks for articulating it for me. (Assuming that VC agrees now. If not, thanks for nothing. :P )
I'll post a few examples that clearly show that there are many different, but common reasons why a person may spend an "excessive" amount of time playing video games:
1. Hiding from real life problems.
Some MMO players are online a lot because they have serious problems in their real life that may be short or long term that they want to ignore.
2. Boredom, lack of anything fufilling to do.
Certain types of people, such as college students or retired older people simply have a lot of time to spend playing while having the ability to place priority on their responsibilities.
3. Playing due to social pressures.
The MMO's design inherently makes it a social game where teaming up with other players is an important part of progressing one's character(s). Sometimes a player may be pressured to play more in order to please in game/real life friends or participate in more time consuming content.
While I have never seen any accurate statistics to show how prevalent any of these examples in any specific game, they do show that there are other compelling factors that have nothing to do with addiction that cause players to spend a lot of time playing MMO's. If a player has an addictive personality or serious real life issues he needs to take care of, going to a "gaming detox lab" would not help the individual with a problem that affects every facet of his life.
It is very disappointing to see video games presented in such a sensationalist manner by both media and medical professionals. The article that the OP refers to treats video games like rock music was in treated in the 80's. Video games are the uninformed adult's scapegoat of choice for explaining the current younger generation's failings. While some persons truly have addictive personalities and really do not have the ability to control themselves while playing video games, not all people that spend a lot of time playing a video game because they believe it is "absolutely nessessary" to their mental stability.
As I already said, you're the only one who ever assumed willpower was magic, my argument has only ever been that it exists (which you claim it doesn't, repeatedly).
No, they can't.
A condition is only a mental illness if it interferes with your life or causes undue distress. This is implicit in the definition of any mental illness. You can think of this criterion zero: the hidden criterion that all health professionals understand but does appear in the definition of any one illness. So when you're reading articles on this subject, mentally insert criterion zero at the beginning of the criteria list.
These are not "factors aside of addiction." There are risk factors for addiction. If somebody told me that they were playing WoW for 60 hours a week because they were bored with life, or hiding from their problems, or because they were succumbing to peer pressure, I'd urge them to quit and go get counseling, because I'd be more worried that they were addicted having heard that.
If kaliyama said something that could be strictly interpreted to that effect, I don't think he meant it.
That itself is indicative of a problem. Online relationships do not substitute for real life relationships. If a relationship is both real-life and online, that's great, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people who have no social contact outside of an MMO.
If somebody, when deprived of one unhealthy activity, would substitute it with a more unhealthy activity, such does not imply that his participation in the first activity was not excessive.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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True, but it's still pretty fucked up. Not to mention anyone arguing against games, or arguing that games are addictive, now have that bit of ammo in their pocket. Gamers fucking over Gamers would be a decent thread.
3DS: 1521-4165-5907
PS3: KayleSolo
Live: Kayle Solo
WiiU: KayleSolo
Teamkillers don't restrict themselves to public Counterstrike servers.
Nor to videogame-issues.
Fuck them.
Just because I don't -like- doing the shit that they're talking about doesn't mean that it's the fault of video games that I am not doing that stuff. I don't like going out to parties where people are drinking, so I don't do it. It's a fucking simple thing that they don't seem to get a grasp on and their utter ignorance and inability to understand my side of the argument makes me want to fucking punch them in the face. It's like saying the reason I don't eat salad is because I am addicted to meat. Fuck that.
As for the few sensationalized stories of idiots letting their children starve, fuck them too. The problem is the people, not the games. The people are retarded assholes who shouldn't have the ability to reproduce. It's not the fault of the game makers that stupid people end up playing their games.
This shit just makes me so unbelievably mad. I can't even think about it without it tuning into an angry, hate-filled rant in my head.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
Sounds like you play violent games a little bit too much.
Right now I'm living half a world away from my parents and I'm approaching the end of my college career. And when I look back, I can say with no reservations whatsoever that they were right. I seriously regret how much I let video games stunt my social growth. Furthermore, I feel ashamed that my juvenile, rebellious attitude got in the way of me understanding this sooner.
Yeah, I had fun while growing up thanks to video games, but at the same time I wish I had listened to my parents and played less and instead picked up other, more constructive, healthy, and useful hobbies.
Perhaps they're just worried that you'll turn out to be an unsociable asshole who pimps children to middle-eastern crackwhores?
Agreed!
World of Warcraft IS a drug, if you are playing it seek rehab immediately.