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Does America Really Suck?
Bucketman
Call meSkraggRegistered User regular
Call meSkraggRegistered User regular
So I just finished watching Sicko, (and don't get me wrong, I don't believe most of what Michael Moore says, I know he skews a lot of his fact and is EXTREMELY one sided) and it really got me thinking. Does America really suck as much as we are presented? And if all this stuff is true, if things that MM and many other people in the media say really is the truth, then why doesn't it change?
Is our Health Care really that crappy compared to Canadia/France/Cuba? Is there Health Care really all that great?
Does our government REALLY control out with and out of fear? Does this not occur in other countries?
Do other countries actually see us as the school yard bully?
Is our Government completely corrupt at every level? Can't the same be said about everyone else?
Education? Is it better in America? Is that why we pay so damn much? And why is it so hard to get loans?
And finally the one question thats been burning in me for years now:
Can we ever hope to change it?
(to clarify I don't want to start a flame war, or anything. I'm seriously scared of the world I'm entering as soon as I finish College...if I can get loans to finish. And want to know other peoples opinions on whats really going on)
Edit: Also I just wanted to say that I would have liked the thread title to be "Does America Really Suck as much as we are lead to believe?" but didn't think it would fit.
Is our Health Care really that crappy compared to Canadia/France/Cuba? Is there Health Care really all that great?
Does our government REALLY control out with and out of fear? Does this not occur in other countries?
Do other countries actually see us as the school yard bully?
Is our Government completely corrupt at every level? Can't the same be said about everyone else?
Education? Is it better in America? Is that why we pay so damn much? And why is it so hard to get loans?
And finally the one question thats been burning in me for years now:
Can we ever hope to change it?
(to clarify I don't want to start a flame war, or anything. I'm seriously scared of the world I'm entering as soon as I finish College...if I can get loans to finish. And want to know other peoples opinions on whats really going on)
Edit: Also I just wanted to say that I would have liked the thread title to be "Does America Really Suck as much as we are lead to believe?" but didn't think it would fit.
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That is my opinion. It hasn't stopped me from getting into politics, but it has definately shaped the goals I have, and I imagine many other young activisits have similar feelings.
When I lived there for a year in CA (I'm British), some of the stuff, like health care, like college fees, just don't make a lot of sense to me. But the basis of "government bad: free market good!" are so ingrained into the culture of the US that those things will probably never change. What's crazy to me is that these systems put their citizens through the absolute wringer, but people still defend them when they're attacked.
I very much dislike the media there. I think they do an atrocious job of holding the government's feet to the fire, and they are in part to blame for the current administration running rampant, because no-one is going to call them on it when they do. That story about Nick Robinson from the UK getting mocked by GWB for asking a question that UK politician would consider pretty mild is evidence of that. But I don't think the government is corrupt, I think NeoCons are, and although they're one and the same right now, that will change soon enough. I'd rather America played more nicely with the United Nations, but again, that's a current administration issue rather than an American issue.
My other concern is the way the voting has been going recently; the 51:49 sort of slices are really bad news, because the Republican/Democrat comparison are pretty polar options not just in terms of competency, but of core values. When you have a country so divided on things like gay rights and abortion, you're going to have a country that will always have 49% of its citizens annoyed at the government, and this very very middle of the road sort of light touch to these issues hurts everyone.
So no, you guys aren't bad, you're not completely fucked in the head (although we'll need to have a chat about SUVs
It's just like "this is the best guy you could find? really?"
That's just an example though
Strewth, America.
I mean... damn.
The excellence of this post will not be exceeded in this thread.
Well as always everything is more complicated when you live in a place. Only about 15% to 25% of the country actually lives in the advanced educated and technocology affluent society that everyone perceives America as having (or had). Everyone else lives in varying degrees of ignorant/fanatical middle class to uneducated/stupid poverty "paycheck to paycheck" class. These people have different motivators which the Republican party (albeit a very narrow slice that has been labelled the neocons) has been able to manipulate brilliantly and simultaneously to their advantage in the last two elections. Unfortunately for them, the neo-con movement has two sub-factions. The crusader and the businessman. They have been living in harmony for a while by launching wars and strategy based on 60/70s-esque political theory (trying to create a clash of civilizations where one didn't precisely exist beforehand) and then the of funneling hundreds of billions in no-bid war contracts with no oversight to family friends and associates.
Fortunately this alliance has fractured, and perhaps was always unsustainable, and now the crusaders cant move on to Iran no matter how much they try, and the businessmen can't get any more contracts through no matter how much they try. And neither side will help each other move forward until their own interests are addressed. Which again leads up to the next President, which is almost assuredly a Democrat. Will they use the gashes that the neocons slashed into our constitution as a way to advance their opposite, if just as radical agenda, or will they repair the damage. Only time will tell, but I am not paticularly optimisitc.
I agree with you. I think America is one of the only countries that can claim to be super advanced and educated, but still have citizens (including myself) who have little to no idea whats going on and why where so cluster fucked on several topics.
My main problem is the media. Sure people like Michael Moore can make a movie like Sicko and make a ton of cash off the box office. But do they try to change ANYTHING? No, they just sit back. Great you made a movie/news report/article now instead of just trying to raise AWARENESS go out and do something about it. Fuck man the hippies where right. Even if we sit in a muddy field cantering about its still something if we are all there to protest or express a singular idea.
That is overstating it and rather polemic. Bona fide corruption is not nearly that prevalent, although shilling to particular interest groups which are friendly to politicians or provide support is not uncommon. Members of congress, unsurprisingly, have a tendency to put the interests of their constituents or local businesses above those of the country as a whole, and will shill to outside interests if their constituents don't call them on it.
The thing about the free market stuff is that a lot of the time it really isn't. It's more of "free market up until the point it stops benefiting me", where the who the 'me' is depends upon the situation. There is a fair amount of protectionism still present contrary to the benefit of the public as a whole. For example, we have prohibitive tariffs of sugar imports to protect the corn lobby and the local sugar growers, much to the detriment of our sweeteners (we get high fructose corn syrup) and our ethanol (corn ethanol is many times less efficient than sugar ethanol). And the government still grants or protects monopolies or oligopolies in some industries.
There's a good chance that health care will change, as the tide is turning against the half-assed mostly privatized system we have currently.
Mainstream media tends to suck, but there are plenty of other sources of media you can go to if you take the effort to look. Dissent is especially healthy here right now, even if Murdoch won't give a mouthpiece for it.
Its true, TV and the paper isn't the only way to convey a message, but there are still a lot of people who don't have things like the internet, and a lot who consider people who express opinions on the net to be creepy weirdos.
America is the only country that would think they're the only country where that happens.
This shit is goannas.
Yeah, and I think that was something I really took away from Sicko actually. When you see the scene with Moore pootling around the golf course with some old Canadian guy and he asks something like "So why do you pay for health care people who can't afford it?" and the guy replies "Well, someone has to look out for those people".
The concept of living in a society that doesn't always put Me before Us seems to be a bit alien to middle America.
Fortunately, in a lot of other countries these citizens don't vote
Now see thats why I made this thread. I live in the middle of almost nowhere and what I see on TV and in the news and such either tells me that:
A) Noting bad happens here, its every other country that sucks
or
I wanted to know what other people think. Sorry my "Shit" is an African monitor lizard.
Well, individualism is more pronounced in the US than in a number of other 1st world nations, but I'm not sure that is the whole story. It may be more linked with the more religious nature of the country, harkening back to when the church instead of the government provided the main social supports, or more recently to private philanthropy of tycoons like Carnegie. I'm not sure how much that is the case now though, given the ever expanding federal government since FDR and WWII days.
I don't doubt that we tend to have a stronger distrust of government in general though.
Err right, sorry.
Well I guess what I'm getting here is that its not just in America like some would have us masses believe...and some get kind of angry about it. Do some of you people from other countries dislike the US of A?
Oh, other countries have plenty of their own problems, it's just they aren't the noisy 300 pound gorillas that the US is. Also, we don't really mind about bitching about our problems, real or imagined, in public where everyone else can hear about it. In some other countries that sort of behavior could either have social limitations, or be outright illegal.
I remember reading a description about the nature of the Japanese education system and subsequent hiring either here or on slashdot a few weeks back, and it was very enlightening and very much not positive. They are very much geared towards teaching for the test, such that learning outside of the context of what is relevant for testing is very weak. And those who actively try to learn for the sake of it and work harder tend not to do much better than those who don't, as entry level hiring is by company and not by position. Afterwards the company will decide what positions to stick people in.
The US education system has its fair share of troubles, but they aren't alone in that regard.
For the average schmo, the story is rather different. We all know that a depressing number of people don't have any health insurance at all, that HMO's routinely screw over customers, that maternal leave, psychiatric care, and disability benefits are not guaranteed. Health care coverage is tied to your job, so those without work, or between jobs, or with jobs which don't offer adequate care, get the shaft. Plus, the multitude of insurance carriers results in huge inefficiency and overhead; the percentage of budget that goes into administrative costs in the US is higher than in most other countries.
That said, the potential for miraculous care is there. In, say, Canada, everyone gets care, but it's not the very best possible (in most cases). It's a more one-size-fits-all approach. The difference (theoretically) that makes the American system superior is that anyone could, potentially, work their way into the economic elite and enjoy that superior care. Now, as to whether that's true or not is a different debate.
Yes, our government controls us through fear, and yes the government is corrupt. That doesn't mean that every single person is corrupt, but the system is sick. And it's been like that in every country, ever.
My understanding of the rest of the world's view of us: needless to say, it's not monolithic by any means. To draw with huge, sloppy brushstrokes, I think it's fair to say that most people have a distrust of American power, and particularly our current government, but basically like American people.
And yes, of course we can change it. It'll mean not giving a shit about |Paris Hilton, it'll mean taking corporate control over news away, it'll mean having people read a book now and then. And, maybe hardest of all, it'll mean taking a long, hard look at the idea of American exceptionalism, the idea that the US and its citizens can do whatever we want, whenever we want, because we're the biggest and strongest and we've got the nukes. We need a new recognition that the US is a special place, the grandest social experiment in history, and has limitless potential, but with vast, deep problems that need introspection and debate.
Now I'm going to play some Picross DS.
IOS Game Center ID: Isotope-X
I won't disagree with your statement, however, the 'No Child Left Behind' policy is complete bull shit and needs to be completely re worked. Not to mention that its so expensive to go get a secondary education in the US these days when its mostly considered a requirement.
Hell I just spent 1 year at a state university and it cost my family over 16,000. The government decided I didn't qualify for more then 2,300 in help. Mind you that did help a lot, but beacause my family has recently fallen on hard times, that meant I had to go to a local "Community College" which just started happening here in Indiana 2 years ago. My high school and college advisers told me to stay away from Community College, and that it would hurt more then help. Yet this year with books is costing me only 2,400, and all I'm doing is general classes so when I do transfer (to god willing a med school) I'm only like 6K in debt as opposed to 32K.
Not to mention I've been told by more then 1 college loan orgianization that the only way I can get a loan with my family's credit being fucked is if I was a "Minority".
The thing to me which is generally baffling about America is the simultaneous insistence on the 'free' market which apparently encompasses doing nothing to correct externalities in cases like the labor market, of which access to health care is a pretty big one (attaching it to your job - WHAT THE FUCK?)
To the first part, you're partially right, but for frame of reference there are a ton of procedures that a person living in Japan would have to fly to the U.S. for that I can get within fifteen-minutes walking distance given access to a platinum-card. It's not like only ultra-super-rare-and-slow-killing shit that we do better in our hospitals than a lot of other even first-world countries. Some of the particular procedures are simple, outpatient, here-have-some-codeine shit here.
irt the second part; my dad has an ethical belief that it is the responsibility of employers to look after their employees, and that includes providing good healthcare. Sadly, people like my dad don't return as much profit to stock-holders as people who view employees as disposable sheep. This tends to show up in product-quality if it gets too bad, but our standards for that are pretty lame here too.
Warning, crazy thought ahead: I very strongly believe that if the US played football (or, if you must, soccer) and loved it like the rest of the world there would be a much better global outlook. As much as it stokes rivalries, it really does draw you to the population of other countries as well. It's the same thing with the Olympics too, it seems that any element of the Olympics the USA can't dominate doesn't get recognised, and even when Michael Johnson was dominating, it still didn't really matter, the Superbowl is way more important. Or the "World" Series.
If America actually joined in with the things the rest of the world does, it might engender a spirit of co-operation, rather, as you say, exceptionalism.
Is our Health Care really that crappy compared to Canadia/France/Cuba? Is there Health Care really all that great?
I don't think any country actually likes its health care system, its too emotive an issue to be easily ignored and far too broad and complex to be made perfect. Reckon even Scandinavia complains about their health care systems.
Does our government REALLY control out with and out of fear? Does this not occur in other countries?
Partly fear, but also the whole Patriotism thing seems a bit wierd to me. Something like the PATRIOT Act sounds omnious rather than the true course of action for any right thinking american.
Do other countries actually see us as the school yard bully?
Depends a lot, probably more so in recent years. That said I think its probably more become a slightly darker version of its previous Do-Gooder image, whether you supported them would depend of if you were being meddled with.
Is our Government completely corrupt at every level? Can't the same be said about everyone else?
The Corruption perception index the UK is considered to be at joint 11th place far as being generally free from corruption, the US is at joint 20th. Australia beats us both at 9. Far as our own perception of corruption, I think that tends to be focused at a more local level (most people in the UK consider the UK to be less corrupt than most of our partners in the EU, excluding germany and the rest of northern european)
Education? Is it better in America? Is that why we pay so damn much? And why is it so hard to get loans?
Like healthcare, I don't think very many countries are particularly happy with their education systems in general. Education is a very broad topic as well, ranging from those just starting school all the way up to university. That;s not even taking different distrcits and areas into account as well - but I don't think anyone is particularly aware or proud of having their 8 year olds from poor background being particularly good readers. Think this sort of thing, far as perception goes at least, almost always focuses on universities.
Well see thats the thing, everyone wants to make their $. Lets just take a big company, I'll say Wal-Mart just because there easy to use. They have an employee that earns min. wage (which just went up to 5.50 and will go up to 7.50 in the next 2 years here in Indiana) he has a family to take care of, and they need health care, well he has to pay Wal-Mart $200 a month for the best plan they have, he pays the company he works for over 1/3rd of his monthly check if he work 40 hours a week (If I did my math right) so Wal-Mart can make money off of him needing health care, so they give some of that money to the health care provider and pocket the rest. He gets nothing more then the privilege of only having to pay $30 to see a regular doctor, and almost never step food into a hospital. He could quit and find a new job, but his family really needs that health care.
I agree with you Electric attaching it to the job is one of the dumbest things that we could have every done in America. Unless you own a health care company or get to charge your employees to use that health care company.
The fear appeal is a very easy persuasive tactic that plenty of people will fall for if it comes from an authority figure or percieved-expert. It's a shotgun-thing. Patriotism is a shortcut to stirring up an emotional reaction, especially here where it's so deeply ingrained into regular culture and pop-culture. And emotional reactions tend not to often be terribly rational reactions. They're simple tricks that no one should fall for if they're paying attention or even halfway conscious. But they work incredibly well here. For fuck's sake I just saw somebody use terrorism as a reason why we shouldn't make name-changes easier for men who are getting married. Someone give me the Fox Terrorism Van .gif...
Yeah I noticed that too. I think the government gets away with a lot more then they should by simply adding something like "And if you don't like it your not a patriot". I think the Prez could go to Texas and start shooting people and as long as he waved a flag and said "Its the patriotic thing to do!" he could get away with it.
Its kind of like people who vote for a certain candidate simply because "I'm a Republican" or "I'm a Democrat" as opposed to actually learning what each individual candidate stands for.
I've also noticed a large "vote for Hillary because women!" contingent that creeps me out because come on guys, she's not a feminist, she's a professional con-artist. She knows how to tell people what they want to hear in order to get from them what she wants. In particular, votes.
I have a couple of questions that are tied to patriotism...
1. Why is the American flag absolutely everywhere?
2. Why is 9/11 used as a reason for everything, and this still seems to pass the bar in the American media?
3. What is the actual process in schools now when it comes to regular mantra recital? Like the pledge of allegiance? Is that the one that happens every day? Is this not just a form of brainwashing, banging in the idea of the infallibility of the state?
4. Do people seriously believe that the Forefathers were absolutely perfect? I get very tired of reading a debate, and then have some quote from Ben Franklin applied with this smug sense of satisfaction, because we know everything the Forefathers said was correct and can be applied to anything in the modern world that they could not possibly have envisaged.
When you are surrounded by stuff like this all the time, how can you possibly be expected to get a perspective on your country's good and bad bits?
To sell more.
In short, she's a politician.
Electoral candidates using any reason they possibly can to get people to vote for them, whether those reasons make sense or not, is almost certainly a universal part of every democracy. That's just how the game is played. As long as voters accept silly reasons to vote for candidates, candidates will give them silly reasons. This is why it's important to have an educated citizenry capable of discerning the silly from the important, and I think failing to give everyone a solid education is a major flaw in many parts of the country.
I don't fly those colors. I fly these colors:
It's not actually used as the reason for everything. They've taken to mixing things up a bit and picking other random potentially-scary things to use as a reason to do whatever. Like how if we let teh geyz marry, it'll make straight people unable to marry, or something.
I have no idea.
I find the forefathers convenient at a lot of points, honestly. Like when my grandfather tries to claim that I should have to earn my rights through military service, and I can point out that they signed to the idea that I'm endowed by my creator with certain inalienable rights. Because he believes I have a creator.
I'm not in the mood for that question.
Yes, a professional con-artist.
I'm really uncomfortable that the two most popular front runners are Obama and Clinton, if only because the most frequent arguments for both seem to be "we could have a black guy!" or "we could have a woman!" respectively.
If you don't want con-artists, you can have coup artists. Take your pick. :P
When someone points out how racist and backwards America is...take a look at France's treatment of muslims or Australia's treatment of aborigines. Hell, England and their immigration.
Corruption? Look at Italy, England, Japan...those are just the ones I've personally learned about, but I assume every country has theirs.
Just because everyone does it does not make it right, but when people are quick to point the finger at us, they should look at themselves.
That's because of a simple-minded speaker, and doesn't actually reflect upon the candidates themselves. If people are going to be so easily manipulated by "Hey look, I'm a woman," then as a politician, I would do the same.