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"The Pick-Up Artist": Teaching Guys How to Seduce Womenz!
ege02
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Perhaps some of you have seen the new show on VH1 called "The Pick-up Artist". It is basically about a bunch of socially-awkward guys being coached and trained by a "seduction guru" who goes by the alias "Mystery". Mystery is one of the main characters in Neil Strauss' book The Game, in which he helps transform Neil, an AFC (average frustrated chump), into one of the most successful pick-up artists of our time.
Mystery:
In the show, the students, most of whom have never had much success with women in the past, are taught how to approach, talk to, attract, and eventually sleep with attractive women at bars and clubs. Within a span of 8 weeks, their performance is judged and evaluated by the show's hosts, who at various times go in and "show how things are done". It's pretty fun to watch, even though it is heavily edited at various parts (especially at parts where the gurus get rejected).
Anyway, Seattle Post-Intelligencer had an interesting opinion article about the show. In it, the author Diane Mapes brutally criticizes and mocks the show and the people involved in it, especially the show's host, Mystery. I didn't think much about it -- even though I'm an avid fan of the PU "community" and am quite actively involved in it myself - until I did some research about Mrs. Mapes and found out that she is in her 40s and, she claims, "happily single". She also happens to be a dating coach herself, and at various times has posted various articles about dating in which she bitches and complains about how dating is so difficult in today's world.
To me, she sounded really bitter and disillusioned about the opposite sex, which is probably what spurned her hate-filled article in the Seattle PI.
FOCUS 1: Why are guys expected to be "naturally" good at dealing with and attracting the opposite sex? Why can't attraction be considered just another skill, which can be learned from other sources and honed with practice? What is wrong or pathetic about guys trying to attract, connect with, and sleep with women? What is wrong with trying to become a more attractive person? Why is there such a social stigma against guys who go out there with the purpose of sweeping women off their feet and giving them the time of their lives?
It is really funny to me to get such a bitter, disgusted reaction out of women who hear about the PU community, considering that the end-result of a successful pick-up is their happiness, pleasure, and satisfaction. It boggles my mind that women constantly complain about how there are so few "good" guys out there, and are surprised when they find out that there are guys who actively try to become those guys.
It is also especially funny when such women end up picked-up.
FOCUS 2: Do you have any exposure to the pick-up culture yourself? For our female readers, have you ever been hit on by a "pick-up artist"? Do you guys have any friends who are involved with the so-called "seduction community"? Basically, any personal experience or anecdote goes with this focus.
--
This will be interesting.
P.S. The culture of pick-up, in most cases, is extremely sexist and misogynistic. In some cases it is even creepy as fuck. I know this will be pointed out by more than one of you, but for the purpose of this discussion I'd like to - at least initially - stay away from that and focus on inter-gender relations as they relate to pick-up.
Mystery:
In the show, the students, most of whom have never had much success with women in the past, are taught how to approach, talk to, attract, and eventually sleep with attractive women at bars and clubs. Within a span of 8 weeks, their performance is judged and evaluated by the show's hosts, who at various times go in and "show how things are done". It's pretty fun to watch, even though it is heavily edited at various parts (especially at parts where the gurus get rejected).
Anyway, Seattle Post-Intelligencer had an interesting opinion article about the show. In it, the author Diane Mapes brutally criticizes and mocks the show and the people involved in it, especially the show's host, Mystery. I didn't think much about it -- even though I'm an avid fan of the PU "community" and am quite actively involved in it myself - until I did some research about Mrs. Mapes and found out that she is in her 40s and, she claims, "happily single". She also happens to be a dating coach herself, and at various times has posted various articles about dating in which she bitches and complains about how dating is so difficult in today's world.
To me, she sounded really bitter and disillusioned about the opposite sex, which is probably what spurned her hate-filled article in the Seattle PI.
FOCUS 1: Why are guys expected to be "naturally" good at dealing with and attracting the opposite sex? Why can't attraction be considered just another skill, which can be learned from other sources and honed with practice? What is wrong or pathetic about guys trying to attract, connect with, and sleep with women? What is wrong with trying to become a more attractive person? Why is there such a social stigma against guys who go out there with the purpose of sweeping women off their feet and giving them the time of their lives?
It is really funny to me to get such a bitter, disgusted reaction out of women who hear about the PU community, considering that the end-result of a successful pick-up is their happiness, pleasure, and satisfaction. It boggles my mind that women constantly complain about how there are so few "good" guys out there, and are surprised when they find out that there are guys who actively try to become those guys.
It is also especially funny when such women end up picked-up.
FOCUS 2: Do you have any exposure to the pick-up culture yourself? For our female readers, have you ever been hit on by a "pick-up artist"? Do you guys have any friends who are involved with the so-called "seduction community"? Basically, any personal experience or anecdote goes with this focus.
--
This will be interesting.
P.S. The culture of pick-up, in most cases, is extremely sexist and misogynistic. In some cases it is even creepy as fuck. I know this will be pointed out by more than one of you, but for the purpose of this discussion I'd like to - at least initially - stay away from that and focus on inter-gender relations as they relate to pick-up.
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Hell, I once read that you can drastically increase your chances of getting a woman to say "yes" to a wedding proposal simply by proposing in a location or situation that raises her heart beat, like a scary bridge or something, supposedly because they assume their pulse rate is from -love- instead of fear.
Doesn't help that confidence is such a major dating skill requirement. Confidence can be trained much more easily than, say, compassion.
because that's often not the end goal? This isn't rocket science. A lot of these guys get their new mad skillz but are still in the desperate mindset where they want a girlfriend because of the social status or because they think they have to, not because they're legitimately interested in any one person. Luckily, this often wears off quickly, but it also often doesn't.
You're awful whiny about women.
But mostly it's because two of the most universally attractive features that we find in other people are an interest in you, and confidence. Coming off a culture that a couple generations ago still had the women barefoot in the kitchen making babies.... yeah... the roots are still there where the guys are the dominant side of the relationship and expected to be the ones to step up while the women play coquette.
Actually, it's excitement. The body doesn't differentiate particularly well between fear and "zomg, attractive woman," though an argument is also made in human dev that the natural reaction to danger is "shit, I better breed because I almost died."
As if most guys know how to please a woman anyway.
At the end of the night, 8 times out of ten, that cute guy that was so suave was terrible in bed because he doesn't know or care about making her feel good and just wanted to get his rocks off. It's usually not a win-win situation when cool doodz hit on women. It's win-meh.
I've personally never been a fan of "techniques" or "routines" that are aimed at manipulating women into bed. It's true that a lot of the pick-up culture focuses on it, but as I've said in the post-script, I'd like to stay away from that because there is nothing to argue there.
By proposal I meant proposal of marriage. Presumably you find the person attractive by then. But then again, many people do base their relationships pretty much solely on appearance. Looks+Money+"I can beat up your other boyfriends" is how my folks ended up together. And both of them, being good-looking, had insane amounts of dates, despite not actually sleeping around.
Considering the amount of importance guys place on making their women orgasm, as well as the implications associated with not being able to, I think most of the time when a guy is terrible in bed, it's because he doesn't know, rather than doesn't care.
Beyond that, the notion that there is a single strategy that works with all (or the vast majority of) women is stupid. I know where it comes from - a lot of men (possibly through their own inexperience or through overexposure to the confidence-eroding aspects of PU culture) see Women as a single monolithic Borg-lik entity functioning through a single hive mind. They don't want a companion, they want the coalition of Women to deem them worthy and bestow upon them a Girlfriend... it doesn't matter much who, since they're all the same. And if they are all the same, and since having a Girlfriend means winning the Game, they want to know what the rules of the Game are.
No, there's nothing wrong with improving your attractiveness, poise, conversational skills, and ability to not look like a drooling horny git. But PU isn't about that. It's about giving men a script to follow. Rules like "get her phone number in 15 seconds" or "alternate between showing interest and acting disinterested" or "call her in exactly three days" and "program your number into her cell phone" or "never give her your number" (yeah, I read the AskMen dating advice column from time to time). Then they tell you to go execute The Script against as many women as possible, ignoring that perhaps The Script only works on a specific type of woman or women in a specific era of their lives regardless of whether such women are compatible with you.
You know what? When I lost my virginity I broke every conceivable rule and I still got laid. Why? Because I was crazy about her and she was crazy about me. That wasn't the product of any script, that was just two people seeing the potential for an amazing connection within each other. That connection happens for everyone eventually, as long as you don't have such tunnel vision about looking for a Girlfriend that you forget to look for a connection.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You'd think with the amount of women these types of guys sleep with you'd pick up something along the way.
All anecdotal, btw, because I am not a woman and am not that kind of pick-up guy.
edit: and feral, totally true about the self-reinforcing culture.
It's still the same deal. "Shit, I'm in danger, and here's an opportunity to make myself safe, secure, and breed... sweet." You can also trick people by doing the old "ask for a yacht, settle for a dinghy" trick. "I've really loved you ever since I saw you, will you please run away with me?" "Uh, no." "Well, how about coffee then?" Good old human instinct to compromise.
Take too many psych human development/relationship classes and you can end up a cynical husk of a man like me as well.
You don't.
Poopyhead.
It's not really about experience though. There are plenty of men out there who have had lots of sexual partners, but are still boring in bed. A lot of the times, the learning process in sex is a matter of two people being able to comfortably communicate with each other what they like and what they want and how they want it done.
Carry on.
The worst thing is when your ethics keep you from being able to use all these horrible things on people after learning them all. :P
It's cool, you're gay. Everybody knows all women secretly want to sleep with their gay male friends.
yeah they all want to be the one to turn you straight for a night dude
you're golden
As I like to say, If you run, they chase.
I never had more women interested in me than when I was afraid of boobies. And that stage lasted until I was 18.
Many people consider something they can't obtain as being desirable simply because of that fact.
I don't think getting the woman to orgasm is that important during a one-night-stand where you're never going to see the woman again and have no emotional attachment to her, as compared to a woman you're looking to start a relationship with or are already in a relationship with, for most guys.
The idea that there is slang here we're going to adapt is even more amusing. (pu community?)
To me, trying to "learn how" to pick up women from a book or course is like trying to pick up judo from a book - if you can do it, you're a natural and you probably don't need the book.
(a quick google later)
JESUS CHRIST I had no idea there was . . . an online support system for wimps that want to be assholes?
I could be making money right now teaching Johnny Cache's Asshole Method for All Ages...
Watching some clips of mystery, he's pretty much IDENTICAL in personality to a couple guys I know...with tom green's voice... I guess I don't begrudge him his bread and butter but jeez he's not that special...
edit: Zee goggles, zey do nozing
I host a podcast about movies.
I agree with a lot of this, except for some generalizations about PU culture (or whatever it's called) and the bolded statement, which is blatantly false. It does NOT happen to everyone eventually, and a lot of times it's not because of "tunnel vision" so much as a lack of confidence, or lack of lucky circumstances.
I attribute my moderately high success with women to several factors: 1) I was lucky enough to lose my virginity to someone who, in retrospect, was probably not very picky, but was nonetheless quite good looking; 2) about six months later successfully wooing (rather clumsily, when I look back) the hottest girl I had yet dated (and actually, have dated since). Both of these served to drastically increase my self-confidence, which is what has helped me in my success over the last few years.
Unfortunately, some guys aren't so lucky. And I'm not just talking about sexual relationships either; confidence is almost essential in any (healthy) relationship. I'm all for teaching guys to be more confident in themselves. I think the PU community is going about it the wrong way (they charge MASSIVE amounts of money for workshops and training DVDs, etc.), but I guess it's their right to make a buck.
Edit: forgot to bold the statement...
I host a podcast about movies.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. For one thing, almost everyone within the culture realizes that different things work on different people. Every routine, technique, approach, etc. used is meant to filter out certain types of girls and attract other types. At the beginning, people may not know this, but with experience they slowly realize it and "calibrate" their game accordingly.
For example, the "bad boy" perspective/mentality/approach works on girls with low self-esteem because only people with low self-esteem are OK with being treated like shit. The "masterful lover" approach only works on emotionally healthy girls with high self-esteem because such girls tend to be sexually self-accepting and believe they deserve such a man.
The great thing about the pick-up community is that it has a ton of different approaches. People try them out, experiment, calibrate them, and in the process, learn a little about themselves and about the opposite sex.
Basically, the most fundamental "tenet" of the pick-up culture, the most ultimate goal, is to be able attract girls you become attracted to and be able to choose from among them, rather than wait for someone special to come along and hope you two will fall for each other, as was in your (lucky) case, Feral. Or worse yet, "settle" for someone average because you cannot attract anyone better.
For the record, I went back and changed it before I saw your comment.
Huh.
Anyway, I actually do have to say the connection DOESN'T happen for everyone. There are plenty of people that sit around waiting for the world to beat down their door and it doesn't happen. You have to put some effort into this stuff.
I host a podcast about movies.
Actually, by "lots of sexual partners" I meant "lots of sexual experience" in general.
And the thing is that if you give her the time of her life during a one-night-stand, she is extremely likely to call you back.
if you say "i'm out for a one nighter" or "i'm looking for Girlfriend Material" you're just screwing off.
I host a podcast about movies.
How about just acting like a slightly idealized version of yourself and attracting the kind of mate who likes you?
Everything I've seen is more like a set of specific rules. Always do X. Never do Y.
Even if what they're saying is "Do X to attract Y type," I still disagree. That's still putting people in boxes in which they don't necessarily fit.
I don't consider my case lucky. It's not like I was just strolling along in the park one day in the merry merry month of may and fell face first into my ex-girlfriend's tits. I'd been, at that time in my life, focusing more on improving myself. I'd started dressing better, I'd started working out again after several months of slacking, and I was making an effort to strike up conversations with people I normally wouldn't have talked to.
That's what I'm saying... instead of giving men a strategy to say, "Follow this algorithm to find the woman of your dreams," they should be saying, "You've got the potential to be good-looking and attractive. Here's how you can live up to that potential." Small, incremental improvements in dress and style and demeanor can have disproportionately positive repercussions.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This I definitely agree with, mostly because it's exactly what happened with me.
Okay, you're right. If you sit around the house playing WoW it's probably not going to happen.
What I should have said is that if you at least get out there and get to know people, and don't pressure yourself or anybody else, it'll happen. Going out and approaching people with the specific goal in mind of meeting and seducing a mate is not the only way (or, IMO, even the best way) of finding partners.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I mean there's guys in the world that really don't get it.
You could put them in armani suits and give them abs of steel and they'd still. ..just fuck it up. They might need these things presented to them.
ESPECIALLY I find men to be really ignorant of simple body language. (the things the PUACOMMUNITYLOL seems to call IOIs)
And the one thing this program definitely gets these guys to do is actually approach women, which is the number one thing you have to do to meet one.
I host a podcast about movies.
I think it's worse that I use them on myself at interviews and such. "Okay, feeling a bit nervous... so... open up the posture, lean forward... shit, what was he saying? Tilt head to pretend like you're thinking, okay lean back to relax a little bit" etc etc etc.
Unfortunately, shallow methods can work on non-shallow people who don't know any better.
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Aro: Yeah, I know what you mean. I basically have a split personality because I self-manipulate on a daily basis.
Yeah... I guess. I can see what you're saying. I've known guys like that, too. And, yeah, I suppose they could use all the help they can get.
I still am uncomfortable with the portrayal of courtship being an esoteric tradition passed from master to understudy. I just want to shake these guys and go, "It's not that hard! Stop trying so hard! Just let it happen!"
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.