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Relationship Wisdom
ege02
__BANNED USERS regular
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I saw a similar thread on Tucker Max forums and thought it might be interesting to have a discussion about it here as well.
--
Guidelines:
What this thread is about:
* Relationship "common sense".
* Relationship pitfalls and reasons why relationships fail.
* Advice from our older and/or married members regarding relationships, engagement, marriage, divorce.
What this thread is NOT about:
* How to ask someone out. This is not H/A.
* Various sexual positions and techniques. Go read Kama Sutra or something.
* Various moral issues regarding birth control methods, abortion, raising children, etc. I will come over there and step on your throat if you go down this road. Seriously, it took me 45 minutes to make this thread, and you will not take a shit on it by derailing it and getting it locked.
* Venting about your sexual or emotional frustrations and issues. They have MySpace for that.
--
Rules:
* You will be civil. If you want to disagree with someone, do it maturely. Don't condescend. Don't be a dick.
* Your posts need to have substance. No witty one-liners or clever self-deprecation.
* If you are still in high school, you will not try to give relationship advice. You will only listen. You are allowed to ask questions and discuss things and point out things, but not debate things.
* No misogyny or androgyny.
* No generalizations. You will say "a lot of relationships fail because..." You will NOT say "most relationships fail because..." If you do, prepare to back up your claim with data, or you will be slapped.
* Basically, if you say anything that contradicts the thread title, you fail.
--
Now that we have eliminated 95% of potential posts, on with the real stuff.
FOCUS ONE: In your experience, what are some of the common reasons relationships fail? Can you personally relate to any of these reasons? If you had the chance to go back in time with what you know now, what would you have done differently?
FOCUS TWO: What are some conditions that need to be or should be met before someone gets in a relationship with someone else? What about for moving on? Stages like becoming exclusive/serious, moving in together, engagement, marriage. Feel free to distinguish between conditions that are absolutely necessary (in your humble opinion, of course), or conditions that are merely in the "recommended" category.
FOCUS THREE: If you are currently married, can you share some of your experiences as they relate to this thread? How did your relationship develop with your spouse? How did you deal with ups and downs? What kinds of advice would you give to younger people? Special rule for this focus: No retarded cynical attitudes like "never get married, you lose your soul" or other witty stuff.
For the record, you can talk about your arbitrary age limits/requirements for certain things, but do so with the full and explicit recognition that these will be your opinions. Prepare to give good reasons if you choose to present them. For example, in my opinion it is unreasonable for people to get married before age 25, because a lot of people change drastically in their early twenties, and getting into a life-long relationship during those years has a higher chance of ending in disappointment and possibly divorce later on. However, I understand that many exceptions exist and I respect that.
I think I covered everything.
Have at it.
--
Guidelines:
What this thread is about:
* Relationship "common sense".
* Relationship pitfalls and reasons why relationships fail.
* Advice from our older and/or married members regarding relationships, engagement, marriage, divorce.
What this thread is NOT about:
* How to ask someone out. This is not H/A.
* Various sexual positions and techniques. Go read Kama Sutra or something.
* Various moral issues regarding birth control methods, abortion, raising children, etc. I will come over there and step on your throat if you go down this road. Seriously, it took me 45 minutes to make this thread, and you will not take a shit on it by derailing it and getting it locked.
* Venting about your sexual or emotional frustrations and issues. They have MySpace for that.
--
Rules:
* You will be civil. If you want to disagree with someone, do it maturely. Don't condescend. Don't be a dick.
* Your posts need to have substance. No witty one-liners or clever self-deprecation.
* If you are still in high school, you will not try to give relationship advice. You will only listen. You are allowed to ask questions and discuss things and point out things, but not debate things.
* No misogyny or androgyny.
* No generalizations. You will say "a lot of relationships fail because..." You will NOT say "most relationships fail because..." If you do, prepare to back up your claim with data, or you will be slapped.
* Basically, if you say anything that contradicts the thread title, you fail.
--
Now that we have eliminated 95% of potential posts, on with the real stuff.
FOCUS ONE: In your experience, what are some of the common reasons relationships fail? Can you personally relate to any of these reasons? If you had the chance to go back in time with what you know now, what would you have done differently?
FOCUS TWO: What are some conditions that need to be or should be met before someone gets in a relationship with someone else? What about for moving on? Stages like becoming exclusive/serious, moving in together, engagement, marriage. Feel free to distinguish between conditions that are absolutely necessary (in your humble opinion, of course), or conditions that are merely in the "recommended" category.
FOCUS THREE: If you are currently married, can you share some of your experiences as they relate to this thread? How did your relationship develop with your spouse? How did you deal with ups and downs? What kinds of advice would you give to younger people? Special rule for this focus: No retarded cynical attitudes like "never get married, you lose your soul" or other witty stuff.
For the record, you can talk about your arbitrary age limits/requirements for certain things, but do so with the full and explicit recognition that these will be your opinions. Prepare to give good reasons if you choose to present them. For example, in my opinion it is unreasonable for people to get married before age 25, because a lot of people change drastically in their early twenties, and getting into a life-long relationship during those years has a higher chance of ending in disappointment and possibly divorce later on. However, I understand that many exceptions exist and I respect that.
I think I covered everything.
Have at it.
ege02 on
0
Posts
1: I think, as the previous poster stated, many young people simply aren't into the confrontation and sometimes necessarily awkward communication that relationships may require. (For instance, no one wants to ask a partner to get tested for STIs with them. But it's the responsible thing to do before being physically intimate.) Also, I think in a lot of ways, people are surprisingly ignorant (myself included) of certain situations until said experiences occur. And then they don't know how to deal with the experience (of losing their virginity, having an awkward bedroom experience, wanting to try something new, discussing engagement/marriage...what have you.) Overall, I think many younger people are more into the physical side and aren't prepared to fully emotionally bond, or are simply, for some reason, incapable of (or unwilling to participate in) such bonding. I think this is something that gets better with age.
If I could fix something from the past, it would be getting to know people before dating them. My more successful relationships have been because I knew the person and had spent lots of time with them before dating. It seems kind of obvious, but lots of people start to date without taking that time to get to know someone. It seems to me that it's also helpful to know how people are with their exes before you decide to date them (not to be a fatalist and say that a relationship will end, but many do...and people are capable of some crazy stuff).
2: Before getting in a relationship with someone else, the person needs to love themselves. I'd say this is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, in my opinion, that person's relationships will be completely incomplete.
Also, it's good to be comfortable with your life and confident in where you want it to go. You can't depend on someone else for happiness. That never seems to bode well.
I'd say, communication is a must. For reasons stated above. You can't really have a fully functioning relationship without a fair amount of communication. And you need to be willing to be wrong.
Most of all, understand that relationships require you to be selfless in many situations. Oh, and opposites attract and stick, in my experience, while people who are extremely similar will eventually get tired of the lack of variety.
I've been remarkably lucky when it comes to having relationships fail.. but thats because I haven't been in many. Viewing other peoples relationships from the outside however I've noticed that alot of the failed ones seem to have major problems with communication and/or are listening far to much to what other people think. The first stop with any problem has to be talking to the other person, and if you feel unable to do that, there are more issues than the likely minor problem that are going on.
Far to many young people also seem to obsess over love, and the physical side of their relationships, and don't seem to understand that relationships often require work. I've seen alot of couples break up just because they argued over something.. they seem to think to be in a relationship you have to agree on everything all the time.
Friendship is really, really, important for any kind of lasting relationship.. if you don't like the person most of the time, you can't really expect to be with them years into the future.
Also its very important to approach the relationship sensibly. Love does not conquer all, nor is the knotted gut feeling you get during the first months of passion and infatuation going to last long.. a long term relationship is more about companionship and sharing your life with someone than gazing longingly into their eyes and jumping their bones at every opportunity.
First off, its important to remember that because we're talking about two unique individuals, every relationship is different.. although you can get advice from other people, you cannot take others word as law in relationships.
I met my wife online, when we were living on opposite ends of the world from each other.. so trust became an absolute priority. Note that this did not mean that we always liked what the other was doing.. but we could trust one another to react to it with thought as well as telling one another when something happened, even if we didn't like it. If you cannot trust a person, a marriage is surely not going to work out, since it is a legal contract... would you sign a contract with people you didn't trust?
On that note... getting married purely on the value of love and your emotions is a bad idea. A lasting relationship must be approached sensibly.. when you get married you are no longer just talking about spending alot of time together and having sex, you are talking about binding yourself legally, financially and (if you are religious) spiritually to another person. The same is actually true of any major commitment you make with a partner, buying a house, or a car, or having a child.. it must be approached from a sensible mind frame, because it has repercussions that could last the rest of your life if things do not work out.
Being willing to compromise in your life is also very important if you actually want the relationship to work out.. not just on things you argue about, but also on the little things.. don't make your partner always only eat the things you like, or watch the shows you like, or enjoy the hobbies you like.. take some time to try and give them something back. This is actually something that is coming very hard to me personally, as I tend to either like something or not like it... my wife has several times had to turn around to me and tell me to stop complaining about her TV shows all the time.
Essentially, when you get married its important to remember that most of your life ceases to be about Me and becomes about Us.. and yet, both individuals do need to feel they have "Me time" and that the other values that they are not identical. Its an extremely difficult balancing act, and doesn't always go right.. sometimes things go wrong, and you argue, and then you need to be willing to work it out instead of just walking away from the relationship.
On the subject of walking away.... always try and count to ten.. by this I mean, when your spouse does something you consider really, really, really thoughtless/dumb/selfish/stupid and it makes you incredibly angry.. don't react, just go to another room, take a few deep breaths, punch a pillow.. calm down, and then go and try and talk sensibly to them... learn your own triggers and how angry you can get without really going over the top. Because there will be moments where you are mind numbingly furious with this person you are sharing your life with, and if you let them get the better of you then you find the relationship either doesn't last, or takes a decided turn for the worse.
My girlfriend and I don't always see eye to eye on music, games, movies, what constitutes good food or a good night out. But we do both believe in and always practice honesty, selflessness, the pursuit of knowledge and experience over money, the necessity for a quiet time every day to read a book, always cooking and cleaning together, and a mutual hatred of dogs. We always resolve our disputes by the end of the day; in almost three years, we've never slept on a fight and never woken up angry at the other. These are the things that make a relationship keep on ticking, not both enjoying FPS's and heavy metal.
It's always interesting to note that in the long run, people in arranged marriages end up with higher contentment and satisfaction regarding their partner than people in normal western marriages. Decreasing choice in some way seems to be beneficial in the long run.
(for the record, we broke up because her visa ran out. US immigration law can go suck an egg.)
Wow.
Almost every relationship I have personally seen fall to shambles is because of poor communication; being able to speak candidly about yourself, your partner, and the relationship as a unit are absolutely critical skills.
Further, I think it's important to gently feel out your partner's comfort zone with regards to talking about sex and sexual topics-- because of stupid American culturing here, I've seen way too many couples that thought it was inappropriate to talk to their own partners about sex. Sex is a critical element of almost every relationship, and not being candid about it allows it to become a power play which can pervert the entire thing. Test the waters, and if your partner is less than comfortable, ease them into it; don't, though, allow them to avoid it indefinitely. All this does is create a spawning ground for aforementioned passive-aggressiveness and unspoken power plays.
Where do you get that idea from? My direct experience with arranged marriages has been in Japan, where it is a stereotype for 50-somethings in arranged marriages to do horrible things to each other, and for the wife to often leave with all the money as soon as the kids are married off. Simple stuff like 'I love my wife and am happy with her' is usually seen as head-in-the-clouds foolishness. Thankfully the younger generation are often abandoning the mistakes of their elders.
But I'd agree about the beneficial effect of making a commitment.
Studies I believe.
Not to belittle your personal experience. I'm open to correction on the point.
Also, money. Money is a HUGE problem in a lot of serious relationships. Before you get engaged/married make sure to talk about your monetary habits with your significant other.
2. I agree with an earlier post that KNOWING someone really well is a great way to begin a relationship/engagement/marriage. Too many people base their relationships on physical attractions, and when the fire dies down....they don't have much of anything left. My wife and I dated exclusively for 4 years before we got married. Although, after we married and moved in together, there were still things about her that I never knew that caught me completely off-guard.
3. My advice: be prepared, and willing, to apologize for things that you don't think you should have to apologize for. As stated earlier, there will be times when you are completely furious with your wife. But keep in mind she has the same thing happening to her. A lot of times, a simple apology can diffuse a situation before it gets out of hand. Along with the apology, you may need to be prepared to change your behavior or attitudes also. I'm not saying "Become a different person". What I am saying is some compromise will involve change.
My relationship has grown significantly with my wife. I love her more now than I did the day I married her. The more I think about "us" instead of just "me", the stronger and better my relationship grows.
man I sound emo.
Quoted. My girlfriend and I have been together about 4 years and she still gets irritated at how big of a penny pinching asshole I am.
Eh, moderation in all things. People are humans, they have flaws and you can't confront your partner about every little thing they do wrong. If you want to be with somebody, you have to accept their little flaws, their minor mistakes. And, BTW, "accepting" does not mean "accepting now but bringing it up in an argument later" and it definitely does not mean "getting really pissed off but letting it simmer inside." It means learning not to let the little stuff bother you.
Yes, yes, yes. This is so true I have nothing to add.
I have a big problem with online dating. The way most dating sites are structured encourage you to make choices based on unrealistic criteria. You fill out these profiles where you set your age, height, body type, religion, and ethnicity; then you say whether you want to just date or you want a long-term relationship (what if you want both, but only the latter if you find the right person?). Then other people search on that criteria. Then, hopefully, if you match these criteria and you happen to photograph well (news flash: people who photograph well are not necessarily attractive in real life, and vice versa) you get a nibble on your line.
The problem is that those things have fuck-all to do with what I want (and, IMO, with what healthy mature people want) out of a potential partner. I don't care whether you're black or white, skinny or fat, Christian or Buddhist. In fact, I really couldn't give a rats ass. I want to know your values, habits, goals, and dreams. I want to know how much openness versus how much privacy you expect. I want to know what your attitude towards money is. I want to know what your goals are in life. How do you handle the work-life balance? How do you treat your family? How important is friendship to you? Where do you draw the line between helping other people and taking care of yourself? What does sex mean to you? Where do you want to be in five years? What would an ideal world look like to you? What's your idea of the perfect evening? What's your idea of the perfect life?
Show me a dating site that can help me sort people by criteria like these.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
OkCupid?
I've seen OkCupid, and eHarmony, which are along the lines of what I'm talking about.
Unfortunately they seem like if you're even remotely non-mainstream, you won't fit into their predefined criteria, either.
Edit: wait, I haven't seen OkCupid. I was thinking of Tickle. What's OkCupid?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
There are plenty of unusual people on OKCupid of myriad natures.
And one of my Seattleite cousins found her boyfriend on eHarmony, though she's not that unusual a person, especially for the area.
If you mean "you won't get called" well, that's a matter of presentation and luck.
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OkCupid is cool. Lots of tests and such, and always adding new features for you to get to know people better by.
On one hand, you have to argue for the right reasons. Establish where you end and where she begins which stops you being suffocated.
But on the other hand, you have to not be to proud to admit you were wrong, and apologize when you screw up.
It's all about the three c's! Communication, Communication and Communication.
If you never -meet- people, your chances are zero.
Pff, I tried signing up for eHarmony.
"Unfortunately you fall into the 10% of people who we are unable to help"
I shit you not.
Oh well, I'm not sure how keen I am on these dating sites anyways.
Ha-ha. I wonder why.
Is it your criminal record or your heroin addiction, Al_wat?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I find it hard to believe there are not some people looking for bad asses with criminal records, or fellow junkies.
edit: moved furthur commentary on this tree over to Chat thread in order to adhere to ege's rules.
That's why you gotta go to narcanon.
12-step meetings are like hookup central.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You too? Actually, that happened to someone here, and then a bunch of people from the chat thread tried to sign up to see if they would get accepted or not. I can't believe they made me answer all those fucking questions only to tell me to fuck off.
I personally have strong beliefs about how important the internet and programming is in my life, someone who couldn't understand that is out of the question for me. Even if they could accept it, someone who goes a step further and actually understands (and can help me with it and I help her with it, in harmony) would be even better.
To stay on topic. Forgiveness and understanding (or acceptance if that's impossible) is my impression of good relationship building qualities.
The things I thought were important in a relationship we don't share, and the things we do have in common are hard to explain.
It's funny, if I have to say how we are similar, I start floundering through words like 'wavelength, outlook, attitude' or even the dreaded bullshit 'soul'.
VGSOH doesn't come close.
She rarely plays mmos however. There is one coming up we may both play together, but in general she stays away from them from lack of interest. In turn, I quit whatever the fuck I'm doing in the mmo whenever she wants to spend time together after she has finished study. Sometimes I may negotiate for a few extra minutes because of the inevitable mmo if you log off right now you'll be fucked when you log in shtick, but never longer than that.
During holiday periods it tends to work out that we watch some stuff together, go out together, walk around and investigate the city together, but when it comes to hobbies she is happy sewing some clothes and photographing her dolls and I'm happy playing the games. It's peaceful co-busyness.
Possibly the best example of this kind of coexistence is that when her parents offered to get her a new computer she let me choose the parts for it, on the basis that when she is at uni or not using it I can play games on it and designing it for this means it would definitely have the power for what she wants to do (drawing and design stuff with a tablet).
Just throwing out an example of how a couple with radically different primary hobbies can coexist. It requires compromise. I quit ze gamezors when she wants me, and she stops sewing her dolls clothes(although I am less likely to do this as she is usually making them to sell to someone so is on a timelimit. But the option is there and I have exercised it).
That's a very good point. I've been in a relationship for almost 8 years with my boyfriend. It isn't all just about emotions. You really have to work at a relationship. I don't think it's completely natural for two people to be together in the same house every day, so things can sometimes get tense. Don't let stupid little things ruin a relationship!....
like that my boyfriend plays WoW and I hate it, hehe.
Self esteem issues can also be why some other people stick around in a bad relationship for too long. Some people feel the need to "validate" themselves by having a significant other, even to the extent that they'll keep a bad one just for the sake of being able to say they are, indeed, taken.
As for the issue of similar interests: similar interests are a positive thing to have, as they obviously help you relate to each other in some ways and allow more opportunities for you both to engage in mutually enjoyable activities. However, like it was already said, that alone can't be the basis of a relationship. It can be a nice way to meet people, or a way to get to know people better (i.e. two people love baseball, decide to go to some games, get to know each other more through the time spent with something they both enjoy, etc.), but if that's the total foundation of a relationship, then one's in for a shock when they discover what else their partner's personality contains, good and bad.
Now, with a casual relationship? Common interests can possibly be all you need to find a "Friend with benefits". A serious one, or one with such potential, however? Need to put more effort and time in.
Wii Code: 5700 4466 3616 6981 (PM if y'all add me)
I have deemed the healthiest relationship one that will have the essential bonds occur in this order: Trust, Experience, Emotional, Spiritual, and Love.
That order for the healthiest, all five in any random order for a long lasting/perminent relationship.
I have found it easiest for myself to ask those who feel troubled if, in their relationship, they do have these five connections with their significant other. Each of these connections is just as important as the other, because missing one can possibly mean pain. I do not state that a relationship can be missing one of these five essentials and last, however, I will say that it will not be as healthy as possible.
The union of Trust is what allows us to first accept a person. Obviously, Trust is just that - honesty, the ability to show only what is right.. However, this connection is much deeper than that. When you first meet someone, do you let them know your name? Why or why not? It is this reason that we allow ourselves to be who we are, to trust that person to accept and trust us as who we allow them to perceive us as.
Experience is tricky. Sometimes you may meet someone and you may feel like you've "known them for[insert lengthy length of time here]", but that doesn't necessarily mean you truly know them. People are much deeper than a mere moment - You don't always learn a person's past and personality on a first date, sometimes you don't completely learn a person for years. Experience is there to allow us to share in our life's moments - What do you like? Have you ever.. ? Why these questions? Because these are the questions that determine whether or not we are similar to this person. Everyone asks these because they are a simple method of gaining even the slightest bit of attention and knowledge.
The emotional connection is one that allows us to cope with a person. When a person is sad, angry, or happy, we want to be able to adapt to this mood so that we can best tolerate, accommodate, or further enjoy a person. It is always a new found ability to be able to help one another, and it is always a pleasure doing so. Positive energy, ya know.
The chords of a spiritual connection are a bit harder to define. These are what allow us to understand a person beyond a yes or no. This connection is complex understanding of why a person thinks the way they do. Given this bond, we understand a person's morality, ideas, and purpose.
The final and strongest connection is love. I cannot define it, it is different for every person. It is this connection that we devote ourselves to others for. It is a pure emotion that can overcome many obstacles, even the lack of other Essential connections. I can go on, but.. Love is for you to decide.
I hope this has been of some aid for those of you who have read.. If ever in doubt, anxiety, or pain.. Stop, take ten deep breaths.. and count... "1... ? 2... ? 3... ? 4... ? 5... ?"
Aside from that, which I wrote a long time ago..
Ups and downs; it's all good.
Communication!
It's so easy when you're younger and in college to just drift into relationships and never really take the time to sit down and hash out how you both feel about certain things and what your goals for the future are.
I've seen many short-term relationships (and had one four-year one) turn to friendships and actually end rather successfully - but the sexual relationship still ended. Two people who get on really well and have fun together, but for whom the sex is lacklustre or future goals incompatible, and this is largely because these things were never openly discussed.
I personally wouldn't do anything different, though. I think relationships like that are a great learning curve, and you come away with some experience and knowledge of what you'd do better next time, but I don't see either myself or my friends regretting any of those relationships or think 'what if'. I have one friend who's good friends with half a dozen of her exes - they weren't compatible in the long run but they had fun while it lasted.
Nearly every relationship I see, though, apart from the ones where one person is just plain crazy or can't let go of an ex, has ended due to miscommunication.
Conditions are one thing I really can't say I pay any attention to.
The happiest, longest-lasting marriages I know of (we're talking at least twenty years here, and in one case over sixty years, and I don't think any of them will end) have had dubious beginnings - one arranged when the girl fell pregnant in under two weeks, one where there was an eleven year age gap and the parents disapproved, etc.
On the other hand, I've seen plenty of couples do everything 'properly' and fail. Mandatory several months of dating, two years of engagement, both sets of parents approving, etc.
Honestly, it's a cliché remark, but whatever feels best for the couple at that time. Outsiders never, ever get the full picture. And sometimes you can't butt in - you have to let people make their own mistakes.
One of my friends married as soon as she graduated from university, so she was only just 21, and has a baby now. But she'd been dating her boyfriend since they were both 14, and everyone who sees the two of them together can see how suited they are. Some people do just want to settle down early and raise a family and I see nothing wrong with that - again, those kind of unions have resulted in some of the happiest relationships I've seen.
Also, people need to be prepared to work a bit. It used to be usual for people to marry in their late teens/early twenties. Biologically speaking it was probably better. Divorce was stigmatised so people would probably try harder to work through their problems. I'm not saying that people should be forced to stay in a bad marriage - no, not at all. And not everyone is suited to marriage, nor should a divorcée be made to feel guilty. But no relationship is going to last decades without some work, and I don't think the age at which you marry matters at all.
I really, really have a problem with this.
It may be true that people in arranged marriages tend to eventually learn to be happy with each other, but that's not necessarily a good thing; I don't want to start arguing about arranged marriages because I feel like it would derail the topic too much, but basically, I think your logic goes down the "ends justify the means" route too far: if decreasing choice leads to an increase in happiness, why not do it?
Also, making a definitive commitment to a relationship -- and marriage being this definitive commitment in this case -- doesn't always increase satisfaction. A lot of married people are unhappy because they feel trapped in their marriage. This is especially true since, in Western societies, divorce tends to be costly, both emotionally and financially. Not to even mention the social stigma regarding it.
Ideally, marriage should not be seen as a way to "consolidate" your significant other's interest in spending her life with you, or a way to decrease her choices in terms of potential love interests. Ideally, both people should have their minds made up already in this area before they get married. They should be satisfied with each other. They should be happy with each other. Using marriage to "force" these things is unhealthy.
There was a study very recently that showed that 1 in 8 married couples in the United States have met through online dating.
Doesn't say anything about how happy they are, or how long the marriage lasted after the study, but I think it answers your question.
My experience with it has been mediocre. I've gone on some dates through online dating sites, but most of them didn't lead anywhere. And I think the reason is that when girls in my age group do online dating, there is an underlying assumption -- in their minds -- that they will be perceived as "desperate". So they become really uncomfortable, not to mention secretive. This one girl got a call from her friend in the middle of our date, and she told her that she was out shopping. After she hung up, she noticed my raised eyebrow and hastily explained that she could never look her friend in the eye if it was found out that she did online dating.
Heh.
1 in 8 recently married couples, maybe?
I have trouble believing that ~12% of all married couples met online.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That's what I meant.
I'm not advocating arranged marriage dude. I'm just pointing out that there is a correlation between not having one eye on the door and contentment. Also - I'm talking about commitment, not the outer ceremony of marriage.