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PAX Concerts: Moshing vs. No-moshing

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Posts

  • BuraisuBuraisu Psychomancer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Doesn't sound fun at all, well atleast at PAX. If I wasn't a brick wall, I would be really pissed if someone moshed into me. Just think of all the short and skinny nerds that get an elbow in the face and stepped on. It makes meh sad.

    Buraisu on
    47uk6agplx83.png
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    The opinion on what type of mosh pit might be present at PAX seems to vary between those who are for and those who are against having one. Everyone against the idea of a mosh pit seems to think this will be something out of a punk show, throwin' 'bows, punch, kick (it's all in the mind!) all that garbage.

    I can't imagine a mosh pit at PAX turning into something like that. It would really be more like a "jump around a lot pit". I went to a Gogol Bordello concert once in San Fran that was like this. Just people jumping around, dancing, and having a blast. I recall seeing someone trip and fall once or twice and watching as everyone near him stopped immediately and helped him up. Very courteous group of moshers. The worst that happened to me was my feet were stepped on more than once. But then, that happened at PAX despite the anti-moshing policies.

    I really don't think there's anything wrong with this kind of pit. It's just... I guess "mosh" has a pretty violent connotation to a lot people.

    To the organization thing... I agree with sakana
    sakana wrote:
    Am I the only person who finds the idea of an organized mosh somewhat oxymoronic?

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • KrysKrys regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    The opinion on what type of mosh pit might be present at PAX seems to vary between those who are for and those who are against having one. Everyone against the idea of a mosh pit seems to think this will be something out of a punk show, throwin' 'bows, punch, kick (it's all in the mind!) all that garbage.

    I can't imagine a mosh pit at PAX turning into something like that. It would really be more like a "jump around a lot pit". I went to a Gogol Bordello concert once in San Fran that was like this. Just people jumping around, dancing, and having a blast. I recall seeing someone trip and fall once or twice and watching as everyone near him stopped immediately and helped him up. Very courteous group of moshers. The worst that happened to me was my feet were stepped on more than once. But then, that happened at PAX despite the anti-moshing policies.

    I really don't think there's anything wrong with this kind of pit. It's just... I guess "mosh" has a pretty violent connotation to a lot people.

    To the organization thing... I agree with sakana
    sakana wrote:
    Am I the only person who finds the idea of an organized mosh somewhat oxymoronic?


    Yea, its not even as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Just bumping around jumping and rocking out. We're fucking nerds people, not assholes who want to punch things to get out their agression from their roomy being retarded. (Plus, lets not prove jack thomson right amarite guyz?)

    I dont agree on the oxymoronic comment. A mosh isnt anarchy for gods sake. Its a group where people jump and throw themselves about having a blast to a song. How is that contradicting.

    Krys on
    So god dammed lol.
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I'm with the last two posters. I was moving around quite a bit during the Minibosses, and while I never bumped into anyone (hard at least, there were a couple accidental bumps) I felt like I was making those around me a bit uncomfortable. I'd love a designated rock out area for those of us who like to feel the music.

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Krys wrote: »
    I dont agree on the oxymoronic comment. A mosh isnt anarchy for gods sake. Its a group where people jump and throw themselves about having a blast to a song. How is that contradicting.

    I find it contradicting because a mosh pit is usually something that just happens spontaneously. Organized spontaneity? I guess with so many people that seem nervous about the idea of it, it might be necessary.
    Krys wrote: »
    We're fucking nerds people, not assholes who want to punch things to get out their agression from their roomy being retarded.

    QFT :^:

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • ClankClank Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    The opinion on what type of mosh pit might be present at PAX seems to vary between those who are for and those who are against having one. Everyone against the idea of a mosh pit seems to think this will be something out of a punk show, throwin' 'bows, punch, kick (it's all in the mind!) all that garbage.

    I can't imagine a mosh pit at PAX turning into something like that. It would really be more like a "jump around a lot pit". I went to a Gogol Bordello concert once in San Fran that was like this. Just people jumping around, dancing, and having a blast. I recall seeing someone trip and fall once or twice and watching as everyone near him stopped immediately and helped him up. Very courteous group of moshers. The worst that happened to me was my feet were stepped on more than once. But then, that happened at PAX despite the anti-moshing policies.

    I really don't think there's anything wrong with this kind of pit. It's just... I guess "mosh" has a pretty violent connotation to a lot people.

    I semi-agree. What you're describing is way awesome. I went to the Gogol show here in Portland about a week ago, and it was pretty much the same thing: people enjoying kickass music and showing it.

    However, that is NOT a mosh pit. Mosh pits, at their tamest, are people running into/pushing each other with a bit more force than the above-described "jump around a lot pit". At their worst, they get plain ugly.

    I'm totally for jumping.

    Clank on
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Clank wrote: »
    I semi-agree. What you're describing is way awesome. I went to the Gogol show here in Portland about a week ago, and it was pretty much the same thing: people enjoying kickass music and showing it.

    However, that is NOT a mosh pit. Mosh pits, at their tamest, are people running into/pushing each other with a bit more force than the above-described "jump around a lot pit". At their worst, they get plain ugly.

    I'm totally for jumping.

    Haha... it's actually really cool to know that the crowd at the Gogol concert in Portland was the same as in San Fran. I wonder what it is about their fans... maybe it's the music, I don't know. On a side note, their show at Slim's (a pretty small venue; they work best in small venues, IMO) was easily the best concert I've been to. Kultur Shock opened for them... it was amazing.

    Anyway yeah... as I was writing that post I was thinking to myself about a different name for the type of pit we'd have, and couldn't come up with anything clever so refrained from saying anything heh. PAX Pit? That's why I said it would be more like a "jump around a lot pit".

    So then! Who wants to brainstorm names for this "jump around/dance a lot pit"? That way it won't sound so... violent... and scary. I myself steer clear of REAL mosh pits, which means once I had to view SOAD from a distance... up high... in stadium seats. D: Oh well... it was still pretty cool.

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • BigRedBigRed Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    So then! Who wants to brainstorm names for this "jump around/dance a lot pit"? That way it won't sound so... violent... and scary. I myself steer clear of REAL mosh pits, which means once I had to view SOAD from a distance... up high... in stadium seats. D: Oh well... it was still pretty cool.

    You might want to wait until official word about this comes down.

    BigRed on
    <MoeFwacky> besides, BigRed-Worky is right
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Of course. I wasn't trying to suggest it was already a go. I was just thinking of some way to present it without using the word mosh, since it's really not that at all. I had some small hope it might help in the approval process hehe.

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    "The Rocking Grounds"

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • ClankClank Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    Haha... it's actually really cool to know that the crowd at the Gogol concert in Portland was the same as in San Fran. I wonder what it is about their fans... maybe it's the music, I don't know. On a side note, their show at Slim's (a pretty small venue; they work best in small venues, IMO) was easily the best concert I've been to. Kultur Shock opened for them... it was amazing.

    Anyway yeah... as I was writing that post I was thinking to myself about a different name for the type of pit we'd have, and couldn't come up with anything clever so refrained from saying anything heh. PAX Pit? That's why I said it would be more like a "jump around a lot pit".

    So then! Who wants to brainstorm names for this "jump around/dance a lot pit"? That way it won't sound so... violent... and scary. I myself steer clear of REAL mosh pits, which means once I had to view SOAD from a distance... up high... in stadium seats. D: Oh well... it was still pretty cool.

    I hear that. The first time I saw Gogol, about two years ago, was at a really small club in SE Portland. It was absolutely amazing. At the end of the show, my two friends and I, along with about a hundred other people, were on stage jumping (not moshing :P) around like crazy people.

    Like I was telling a couple friends of mine the other day, I've been to a lot of concerts in my life and seen some really good shows, but I'm not sure I've seen a band command a stage the way Gogol does. It's a thing of beauty.

    Anyhow, it's hard to see a solution to something like this. I really don't understand why more people don't want to jump around during the minibosses, etc. Personally, I pretty much have no choice.

    Clank on
  • nearlysobernearlysober Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    People really need to know what they're asking for here.

    Wikipedia: Moshing is a type of dance characterized by audience members aggressively pushing or slamming into each other.

    Why the hell would anyone at PAX condone such action? Why would the vast majority of PAXers want to be subject to such treatment? There are times and places for true moshing, PAX is not the time nor the place.

    You want to dance? You want to jump around? Fine. Be mindful of your space & people around you and go nuts to your hearts content so long as its reasonable for your surroundings. Your desire for a crazy good time does not invalidate someone else's desire for a calm good time.

    You have the right to as much fun as you want without ruining someone else's fun. And getting bumped into ruins other peoples fun. If you bump into someone, be nice, apologize, and tone it down.

    Problem solved.

    nearlysober on
  • LigerLiger Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    People really need to know what they're asking for here.

    Wikipedia: Moshing is a type of dance characterized by audience members aggressively pushing or slamming into each other.

    Why the hell would anyone at PAX condone such action? Why would the vast majority of PAXers want to be subject to such treatment? There are times and places for true moshing, PAX is not the time nor the place.

    You want to dance? You want to jump around? Fine. Be mindful of your space & people around you and go nuts to your hearts content so long as its reasonable for your surroundings. Your desire for a crazy good time does not invalidate someone else's desire for a calm good time.

    You have the right to as much fun as you want without ruining someone else's fun. And getting bumped into ruins other peoples fun. If you bump into someone, be nice, apologize, and tone it down.

    Problem solved.

    Saying this as a concert-goer and NOT as an Enforcer: I completely agree. Have fun without ruining it for others, and keep in mind that everyone has a personal bubble (even if it shrinks a bit in such venues).

    Liger on
    5932306549_6b4d957b56.jpg CUSTOM LANYARDS FOR PAX
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    People really need to know what they're asking for here.

    Wikipedia: Moshing is a type of dance characterized by audience members aggressively pushing or slamming into each other.

    Why the hell would anyone at PAX condone such action? Why would the vast majority of PAXers want to be subject to such treatment? There are times and places for true moshing, PAX is not the time nor the place.

    You want to dance? You want to jump around? Fine. Be mindful of your space & people around you and go nuts to your hearts content so long as its reasonable for your surroundings. Your desire for a crazy good time does not invalidate someone else's desire for a calm good time.

    You have the right to as much fun as you want without ruining someone else's fun. And getting bumped into ruins other peoples fun. If you bump into someone, be nice, apologize, and tone it down.

    Problem solved.

    Bah! Read the posts if you're going to comment.

    We've more clearly defined "The Rocking Grounds" (name pending more suggestions lol) so as to express that we don't want a mosh pit in the traditional sense.

    I don't think anyone here has suggested a typical mosh pit, have they? I'm actually a little scared of real mosh pits. I don't want someone throwin' 'bows at me, lol. What we're suggesting is different.

    Meh to personal bubbles. Rockin' bands pop bubbles. It's what they do. That personal bubble is just as surely ruining my fun as my dancing or jumping is ruining yours. People don't (or shouldn't) go to a concert expecting to have their own little personal space unless they plan on standing in the back, which they should do if that's what they want. It's pretty ridiculous to even think of someone asking people around them for personal space at say, any concert with upbeat music.

    Besides, I was practically on top of the stage during Friday's show, and let me tell you there was no room to do much of anything but stand there and bob my head, which I guess was cool for the groups that played that night. I don't know... maybe the best solution is to just get a large group of people that want in on it and all stand together at the concerts. In the front. Where the awesomeness is the strongest.
    Clank wrote:
    I've been to a lot of concerts in my life and seen some really good shows, but I'm not sure I've seen a band command a stage the way Gogol does. It's a thing of beauty.

    Couldn't have said it better myself. I need to see them again.

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • LigerLiger Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    Meh to personal bubbles. Rockin' bands pop bubbles. It's what they do. That personal bubble is just as surely ruining my fun as my dancing or jumping is ruining yours. People don't (or shouldn't) go to a concert expecting to have their own little personal space unless they plan on standing in the back, which they should do if that's what they want. It's pretty ridiculous to even think of someone asking people around them for personal space at say, any concert with upbeat music.

    Besides, I was practically on top of the stage during Friday's show, and let me tell you there was no room to do much of anything but stand there and bob my head, which I guess was cool for the groups that played that night. I don't know... maybe the best solution is to just get a large group of people that want in on it and all stand together at the concerts. In the front. Where the awesomeness is the strongest.

    Like I said, bubbles shrink at concerts, but they still exist for some. I realize a good, packed concert is going to be shoulder to shoulder, but even I get uncomfortable when the guy behind me keeps stepping on my heels when he bounces around.

    If you want a spot at the front of the concert, you can get in line early. :D

    Liger on
    5932306549_6b4d957b56.jpg CUSTOM LANYARDS FOR PAX
  • nearlysobernearlysober Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    Bah! Read the posts if you're going to comment.
    Thanks, I did. The whole thing. And frankly the ideas of pre-planned cordoned off sanctioned "crazy zone" is insane.

    "The Rocking Ground Rules"
    1. Real rockers follow rules
    2. Stay within the predesignated rocking area marked by the red line on the ground.
    3. Acceptable levels of screaming should remain within 70-90 decibels.
    4. Intentional collisions within the Rocking Grounds should not exceed 5psi of pressure
    5. Are we rocking hard yet?...

    Much of PAX is left open for us to invent our own experience. We're entrusted to use common sense & our intellect to make the most of PAX. And while PAX grows that ability gets a bit diluted as more of the "general population" invades our ranks but there's still enough sensibility to keep it up.

    Be better than the average person on the street or random stranger at a generic concert. Be considerate... that's the only rule. You are not more important than the 6 people around you... don't ruin their experience... aside from that, do whatever you want.

    nearlysober on
  • MarxMarx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    If you had read posts, why was defining moshing and then discussing how bad it was necessary? We moved past the idea of real moshing long ago. No need to address it.

    I agree with you on the point that organizing (with such specific rules and such) something like this is rather insane in that one can't really organize something so spontaneous. That sort of thing usually just happens.

    However I do think people that are interested in dancing or jumping around or w/e ought to form a group so they will only be bumping themselves.... or something, I don't know. That much of it at least can be organized.

    I am better than the average person on the street or random concert goer in that I am trying to find a solution so that people who enjoy dancing and such can enjoy the concert as much as those who do not. As it stands, either way will ruin someone's experience, yours by my jumping and mine by your personal space. I was just trying to find a happy medium.

    Perhaps it's just wishful thinking...

    *checks on Gogol Bordello's tour schedule*

    Marx on
    Space for rent.
  • Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Right Here, Right Now Drives a BuickModerator mod
    edited September 2007
    You're probably right about it being wishful thinking. When it comes down to it, there is no moshing at PAX for various reasons. Also, organizing a dance floor of any kind would require enforcer coordination, so unless the enforcers and PA wish to do something, things will probably stay the same. What it really boils down to is that most PAX-goers are pretty tame concert attendees, they don't move around too much, they don't jump or dance, and the number of people who want to just stand around seems to severely outnumber the jumpers/dancers/wannabe-moshers (I call them wannabe becaus I come from a time when moshing meant deliberately trying to injure those around you and is usually coupled with dodging flying bottles and cans). People can argue the point to death, but I don't really see anything changing in this respect.

    Moe Fwacky on
    E6LkoFK.png

  • SergeantAuberieSergeantAuberie Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I, for one, enjoyed a good Tetris game during one of the shows. I completely enjoyed the music, rocked out and applauded on occasion, and stayed inside my own personal bubble enough to set a new high score on my DS for Tetris.

    SergeantAuberie on
  • DarthJerDarthJer Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    As somebody who was two layers of people away from the "Rocking Pit" or whatever you want to call it during the Minibosses, I still was bumped into twice by people who got pushed by "Rockers" (since we don't want to call them moshers) and once by a "Rocker" who missed their bouncers or whatever they were expecting to hit. A crowd of people is not the place to throw your body around. There are so many non-PAX concerts where that can happen, why at PAX where it would seem like something like that would totally go against the vibe?

    If there were a bigger venue, where there was tons of extra space, I would be all about a roped off area, but there were just too many people for a space like that anywhere near the stage that I could see, and I think if it was in the back, it would be too far away to rock enough?

    DarthJer on
  • ClankClank Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Marx wrote: »
    Haha... it's actually really cool to know that the crowd at the Gogol concert in Portland was the same as in San Fran. I wonder what it is about their fans... maybe it's the music, I don't know. On a side note, their show at Slim's (a pretty small venue; they work best in small venues, IMO) was easily the best concert I've been to. Kultur Shock opened for them... it was amazing.

    It does seem to be kind of their MO: http://punkmusic.about.com/od/liveperformances/fr/gogolshow.htm

    Clank on
  • the wookthe wook Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Can I request my own personal roped off area of 5'x5', in which anybody is subject to getting punched in the face by me?

    the wook on
  • leafleaf Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Just do like one guy did and dance so weirdly (and rather badly) that he cleared out that amount of space without even trying.

    leaf on
    newsig-notweed.jpg
  • Shades747Shades747 Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I wanted to drop my opinion in this thread, as an Enforcer and as an avid moshpit fanatic.
    (I was the Enforcer with a braced thumb/wrist all weekend - an injury from an intense pit 2 weeks prior)

    I can't remember a single pit I've left from without an injury of some kind. It's kind of like a badge of honor, if you're not limping and groaning the next day, you're doin it wrong. (I know, I know, there is no "wrong" way...) Part of the fun of the pit is all of the extra bodies (aka padding) surrounding you. I don't think there's any way to create a proper mosh pit in the PAX environment, most of the music isn't really suitable, and I doubt there's enough willing bodies to do it right. You can't "just rope it off", that's a huge hazard, and we can't really afford to use a bunch of Enforcers to create a wall (although personally I think that option sounds like a lot of fun). My suggestion, if you want to mosh to MiniBosses, see them at a show where the crowd is into that sort of thing, it's not really appropriate at PAX.

    Now, a "dance" area I think is a great idea, and would certainly get my vote, however it would need to be placed very carefully and I imagine we'd need strict "no moshing" rule in there.

    (I know I saw this question before, but I don't remember seeing an answer: The "no moshing" rule is 99% of the time set by the venue. I'm positive this will be the case with WTCC, and I doubt anything we do would change that.)

    Shades747 on
  • Bradicus PrimeBradicus Prime Registered User new member
    edited September 2007
    Ok, first off, obviously there is a demand for it, because people are doing it. Simple laws of economics state, if there is demand, supply follows. Either supply us with an area, or we'll make our own, wether rules allow or not. I for one would volunteer to police this area, as I have already done in years past.

    Also, you are at a concert, if you are using your gameboy as anything other than a faux-lighter, you fail at life. If you're going to stand around and play video games, move to the back of the hall, as those of us who are there for the show would like to enjoy it without hearing you complain about messing up your game.

    Call it a rock out area, a pit of somekind, shit, call it a jumble for all I care. Just supply the space. We are here asking, as we want to enjoy the concert in our way without being subjugated and hassled. The bands dig it, there are fans who dig it, why not make it happen. We are also nerds, do not down on us because we like to jump around. I have been to every PAX, and the concerts held at them, and had a blast at all of them. Shit, I even dressed like a pirate the last year at the Maydenbauer. Spent $300 dollars on a pair of boots just for that occasion. Jesus, I work as a Tier II technician at an ISP, then come home and build computers and play video/ccg/d20 games all night, AND am attending college for TWO computer science degrees. It doesn't get much nerdier, geekier, or "lamer" than this.

    All I'm asking is for me, and people like me, to be allowed to have a good time. We are not dipshit frat kids off the street. We are blood of the fold. We play in the same tournaments you do. We gawk at the same awesome games in the exhibition hall for the same reasons. I was really pissed off I forgot my M:TG cards this year, and wish I had had more time to play in the tabletop areas. All we want is to have a good time.

    Bradicus Prime on
  • LegacyLegacy Stuck Somewhere In Cyberspace The Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2007
    Ok, first off, obviously there is a demand for it, because people are doing it. Simple laws of economics state, if there is demand, supply follows. Either supply us with an area, or we'll make our own, wether rules allow or not. I for one would volunteer to police this area, as I have already done in years past.

    Or if you demand it, they will supply you with a one way ticket out of PAX.

    Legacy on
    Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
  • liasaliasa Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Nerf is not allowed because they are afraid people would get hurt. So why would they then allow mosh pit?

    liasa on
  • Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Right Here, Right Now Drives a BuickModerator mod
    edited September 2007
    liasa wrote: »
    Nerf is not allowed because they are afraid people would get hurt. So why would they then allow mosh pit?

    This is the most logical stance anybody has taken in this entire thread.

    Moe Fwacky on
    E6LkoFK.png

  • AbsintheMindedAbsintheMinded Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Ok, first off, obviously there is a demand for it, because people are doing it. Simple laws of economics state, if there is demand, supply follows.

    However 98% of people attending the PAX concerts don't demand it, don't want it and consider it ruining their time to get bumped into, jumped into or "rocker'ed" into. The venue doesn't want it, the organizers (G&T) don't want to pay the astronomical insurance costs that would be associated with condoning it, and none of the attendees would like to have their ticket price raised to cover said additional insurance fees.

    1) Simple laws of economics state: There is NOT sufficient demand to warrant the resources (time/money) needed to make it happen. In addition there would be far more pissed off "customers" (attendees) if it were condoned than there are currently pissed off that it is banned.

    2) Simple rule of geekdom state: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". You are the few, sorry.

    Now look what you did, you made me quote star trek. *shudder*

    AbsintheMinded on
  • SergeantAuberieSergeantAuberie Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Also, you are at a concert, if you are using your gameboy as anything other than a faux-lighter, you fail at life. If you're going to stand around and play video games, move to the back of the hall, as those of us who are there for the show would like to enjoy it without hearing you complain about messing up your game.

    I really just saw it as an interesting challenge with kick-ass background music. But I can also walk + read a book + chew bubble gum at the same time, so I see how others could be mistaken. Although, some guy did come up and tap me on the shoulder to tell me that I was fucking awesome at Tetris. That was cool.

    Anyway, I believe the Nerf person has it correct..

    SergeantAuberie on
  • DarthJerDarthJer Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    2) Simple rule of geekdom state: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". You are the few, sorry.

    You totally Spocked that dude.

    I just wanted to add that if there is a roped off space for moshing next year, we should rope off the space right next to it for people to shoot nerf guns at the people moshing. It would combine all of the main points of this thread and we could then make it a competition to go with the whole gaming theme of the weekend.

    I'm just joshing you, moshers.

    DarthJer on
  • Ezekiel Zelias ChaosEzekiel Zelias Chaos Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I, for one, enjoyed a good Tetris game during one of the shows. I completely enjoyed the music, rocked out and applauded on occasion, and stayed inside my own personal bubble enough to set a new high score on my DS for Tetris.
    Also, you are at a concert, if you are using your gameboy as anything other than a faux-lighter, you fail at life. If you're going to stand around and play video games, move to the back of the hall, as those of us who are there for the show would like to enjoy it without hearing you complain about messing up your game.


    You know, she did not complain.. at all. That is awfully inconsiderate of you.
    Moreso that you would say that anyone who actually takes time out of anything other than PAX to attend PAX fails at life. I am insulted to hear that said about anyone at PAX.

    Especially when you're trying to further your own personal cause.



    I really wanted to contribute to this thread, but not anymore than this, now.

    Ezekiel Zelias Chaos on
    heh heh heh
    enforceruserbarsplitcro.png
  • ClankClank Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Either supply us with an area, or we'll make our own, wether rules allow or not.

    You kind of just proved yourself a total dick with that there. Good luck getting anyone to want to meet you halfway on this one.

    Clank on
  • xxhennersxxxxhennersxx Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Clank wrote: »
    Either supply us with an area, or we'll make our own, wether rules allow or not.

    You kind of just proved yourself a total dick with that there. Good luck getting anyone to want to meet you halfway on this one.




    Limed for great justice.

    xxhennersxx on
  • Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Right Here, Right Now Drives a BuickModerator mod
    edited September 2007
    I think it's safe to say this thread has run its course. All points for either side have been presented, and debate had degenerated into picking at people, so I'm locking it here. I'm sure this topic will come up again at a later date, and on that date, we can refer people back to this thread for reference.

    Moe Fwacky on
    E6LkoFK.png

This discussion has been closed.