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Blackwater Banned from Iraq

OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
edited September 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
"Iraq's Interior Ministry has revoked the license of Blackwater USA"



Most important provider of security contractors for the U.S. has been told to shove off, although there are plenty of smaller contractors to fill their shoes. Considering the current scale of which we use their services, what are the short and long term repercussions?

I see many VIPs from the U.S. ignoring this decision and keeping their personal security/bodyguards. For security/patrol operations I just expect a switch to other firms, and in all no real long term effects. However, depending on the how seriously Iraqi legislation and authorities deals with the situation, an immediate loss of tens of thousands of personnel could increase local militance, at least short term.

Octoparrot on

Posts

  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I've written a few articles and an essay as well as a paper on PMC's in Iraq. And while DynaCorp and Triple Canopy may be some of the largest in Iraq, neither has as much money tied into reconstruction than Blackwater.

    Blackwater USA had at one time nearly 12 billion in contracts. From guarding Iraq Gov. Paul Bremer to counter-assualt operations, airport security...these guys did it all. Yet they represented what many Iraqi's considered "Ugly Americans"; driving fast on the BAF, wrap around sunglasses, MP5's in tow...there were more than a few indiscriminant shootings in Iraq that had these guys' name on it. Two in particular on the BAF. These guys were given impunity regarding their bahavior in Iraq, so much that Bremer even whent as far as to grant all PMC's in Iraq blanket immunity for any crimes that they may or may not have commited. It wasn't until much, much later that President Bush invoked a small stipulation for laws govorning PMC's in Iraq, but it was a footnote.

    Sadly, one of the worst atrocities in Iraq was the ambush of four Blackwater mercs in Fallujah, the infamous coverage of those poor blokes killed, burned, then hung from the bridge. Interesting story on why it happened though, but maybe that's for another time. But it is safe to say there is no other PMC that is hated in Iraq more than Blackwater.

    At any rate, there is no way that Blackwater will miss a beat. CEO Erik Prince has to many ties to the Bush White House and in the Pentagon, and at present time Blackwater is all over the word supporting US interests in low-intensity conflicts. For example, Blackwater has now set up in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea, effectively a US presence denying Iran and Russia a piece of the oil industry there.

    Blackwater USA and the rise of the PMC establishment is a fascinating subject and one that I have spent a lot of time researching. Cheers to Octoparrot. Nice catch.

    Zahaladeen on
  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Ah, so, not nearly the largest?

    It is the one with the most recognition, not just because of the amount of money coming their way but also from the recent book Blackwater by Jeremy Scahill.

    Octoparrot on
  • namelessnameless Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    Blackwater USA and the rise of the PMC establishment is a fascinating subject and one that I have spent a lot of time researching. Cheers to Octoparrot. Nice catch.

    I also am interested to see this news and have been fascinated by the influx of security contractors in Iraq. Zahaladeen, since you're obviously quite knowledgeable re: private contractors, could you estimate how many security contractors are currently operating in Iraq and give a general sense as to what their force multiplier is relative to American infantry? That is, are they equally effective in combat? With the debate over whether the war was mismanaged, it seems obvious that PMCs are being used to pick up some of the slack in troop density.

    If they are already picking up a good deal of this slack and Iraq continues along this tack, they may force a withdrawal more readily than the US Congress could ever hope to accomplish.

    nameless on
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  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Scahill's book was amazing, as was his reporting. Blackwater certainly is more recognized, if for nothing else than the Fallujah incident and the Bremer detail.

    Interestingly enough, Blackwater and the other PMC's continue to be edged out by lesser PMC's who are hiring from Latin American and Eastern European countries as cheap replacements for the overpriced SEAL/SpecOps operators that usually get hired. Usually underqualified and grossly underpaid.

    Zahaladeen on
  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    U.S. businesses outsourcing, of course.

    Friends touring with the USMC right now tell me troop deployment is tied more to area than population, plus giving our troops more hands-on observation and training with local security forces. The slack in many higher population areas is picked up by contractors since our officers know contractors don't have to follow the same rules of engagement. This is anecdotal, though.

    Octoparrot on
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    nameless wrote: »
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    Blackwater USA and the rise of the PMC establishment is a fascinating subject and one that I have spent a lot of time researching. Cheers to Octoparrot. Nice catch.

    I also am interested to see this news and have been fascinated by the influx of security contractors in Iraq. Zahaladeen, since you're obviously quite knowledgeable re: private contractors, could you estimate how many security contractors are currently operating in Iraq and give a general sense as to what their force multiplier is relative to American infantry? That is, are they equally effective in combat? With the debate over whether the war was mismanaged, it seems obvious that PMCs are being used to pick up some of the slack in troop density.

    If they are already picking up a good deal of this slack and Iraq continues along this tack, they may force a withdrawal more readily than the US Congress could ever hope to accomplish.

    Estimates put the current PMC troop strength in Iraq at 100,000 though this is a number representing not only combatants but also force protection troops, support, logistics, etc. So while the number might be a hundred thousand, actual armed mercenaries doing tip of the sword operations fluxuates, but I'd say as many as half do actual combat ops whereas the rest fulfill other security related roles.

    The US troop presence in Iraq, at an anylitical level, is one of nebulous quality. Factor in force depletion levels (KIA's) and loss/destruction of equipment, and the snapshot you take of military readiness in Iraq is pretty thin. New recruits that are fast-tracked through Basic and Infantry school, a measly 15 days in the desert combat center (when what they really need MOUT training instead)...this does not prepare the average troop for the Iraqi theatre. In fact, such shoddy training makes them a liability. To themselve, their unit, and the guy next to them. Plus you have Humvee's that are missing armor, troops that are not being supplied truama plates for their MOUT gear. In comparison, most PMC's - especially Blackwater - are given the latest and greatest gear out there. The average US troop has a A-2 M-16 variant, while a Blackwater merc has a MP-5. US troops use regular NATO approved ball ammo, while many Blackwater and other PMC mercs use special ammo meant to create pretty viscious wounds. US troops have flack jackets. PMC mercs have bullet proof vests with trauma plates. US troops ride in Hummers. Blackwater mercs have fully armored - and more manuverable - Range Rovers. US troops have basic training, infantry training, and some theatre specific training. PMC mercs are usually ex SEAL operators that have extensive training in MOUT, counter assault, and a host of other specialities for this type of conflict. And, whereas a US Marine E-4 (Sgt.) might make $400 a week, a PMC troop makes $400 a day, and depending on what detail you are a part of can make almost $2,000 a day in Iraq.

    PMC troops are better equipped and have more training, yet are not used in a conventional warfare sense. Most PMC's in Iraq are used for security ops, close-in/bodyguard details, counter assault, convoy security, etc. So in a sense, looking at the current low-grade warfare on the streets of Baghdad outside the Green Zone, Blackwater is uniquely placed as a firm that directly support US operations in a MOUT environment, yet US policy has been for US troops and Iraqi security forces and police to do the actual policing in Baghdad. So this puts Blackwater and other PMC firms in a spot where they provide a direct support role.

    Zahaladeen on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Blackwater and the U.S. can basically choose to ignore this if they want to. And they most likely will.

    DarkPrimus on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    However, depending on the how seriously Iraqi legislation and authorities deals with the situation, an immediate loss of tens of thousands of personnel could increase local militance, at least short term.
    Dancing in the streets by military personnel. Thank God.

    Quid on
  • GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I wonder if the Bush administration will use this as an excuse to slow the schedule when it comes to troop reductions.

    GoodOmens on
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  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    However, depending on the how seriously Iraqi legislation and authorities deals with the situation, an immediate loss of tens of thousands of personnel could increase local militance, at least short term.
    Dancing in the streets by military personnel. Thank God.

    Yeah, for the most part PMC's are pretty much villified by US armed forces personell, and in some cases, with good reason.

    Zahaladeen on
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Blackwater and the U.S. can basically choose to ignore this if they want to. And they most likely will.

    A lot of these contractors wind up making lateral transfers to other PMC's when they PMC that brought them to Iraq goes belly up, get's shut down by the PA, or gets head hunted.

    Same guy, different flash.

    Zahaladeen on
  • mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    mrflippy wrote: »
    What do PMC and BAF stand for?

    PMC - Private Military Contractor.

    AKA the PC way of saying "mercenary".

    AngelHedgie on
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  • Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    mrflippy wrote: »
    What do PMC and BAF stand for?

    PMC - Private Military Contractor.

    AKA the PC way of saying "mercenary".
    Man how does he not know what a PMC is?
    Haven't you been following MGS4!

    </sarcasm>
    I actually didn't know what a PMC was till that MGS trailer.

    Mmmm... Cocks... on
  • Not SarastroNot Sarastro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    PMC = Private Military Contractor
    EDIT: BAF = got that one wrong! I'm fairly sure it's referring to the Baghdad Airport Road?

    Like to point out that saying '...PMC mercs are usually ex-SEAL operators...' is a bit rich; simply considering the number of PMC employees who are out there (take your estimate of 50,000 combat ops) shows that it isn't true. 50,000 ex-SEALS wandering around today are there? 50,000 ex-SF of any kind?

    Depending on the company, some are highly trained. Some companies have higher standards than others. Most of the PMC's out there are nowhere near the quality you say, and many are in fact of lesser quality than the military troops out there.

    Not Sarastro on
  • TDLTDL ClubPA, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    And, whereas a US Marine E-4 (Sgt.)

    Small correction here. E-4 is Corporal in the Marines, Sergeant is E-5. And as an E-4 in the Army I made $700 a week in Korea, I would have made far more in Iraq.

    And I also don't know of anyone still using flak vests over there, not in the Army anyway. Same with M16-A2s, by and large most units will be using A4s. The units still stuck with A2s are mostly not combat arms anyway.

    TDL on
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  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Sarastro wrote: »
    PMC = Private Military Contractor
    EDIT: BAF = got that one wrong! I'm fairly sure it's referring to the Baghdad Airport Road?

    Like to point out that saying '...PMC mercs are usually ex-SEAL operators...' is a bit rich; simply considering the number of PMC employees who are out there (take your estimate of 50,000 combat ops) shows that it isn't true. 50,000 ex-SEALS wandering around today are there? 50,000 ex-SF of any kind?

    Depending on the company, some are highly trained. Some companies have higher standards than others. Most of the PMC's out there are nowhere near the quality you say, and many are in fact of lesser quality than the military troops out there.

    Most PMC's that are on tip of the spear operations tend to be former SpecOps guys. I seriously doubt all of them are SEALS as well, but that's what's been reported in the past. As former military, I doubt it. But because most PMC's are not publically traded, we'll never know.

    Zahaladeen on
  • Not SarastroNot Sarastro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    ...and BAF? I'm intrigued now. I thought you were referring to Bagram before I realised you were talking about Iraq exclusively.

    Not Sarastro on
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    TDL wrote: »
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    And, whereas a US Marine E-4 (Sgt.)

    Small correction here. E-4 is Corporal in the Marines, Sergeant is E-5. And as an E-4 in the Army I made $700 a week in Korea, I would have made far more in Iraq.

    And I also don't know of anyone still using flak vests over there, not in the Army anyway. Same with M16-A2s, by and large most units will be using A4s. The units still stuck with A2s are mostly not combat arms anyway.

    <
    fmr. Air Force bloke, so I'll try to not butcher any more ranks that I know of. Apologies.

    A2's are still being used by and large, unfortunatly. Not the best weapon for MOUT in my opinion.

    As for pay, that's my fault since didn't look up what current enlisted fellows make at the moment. I was just typing things in from my limited recollection - didn't know that a fact check would be involved!

    Zahaladeen on
  • TDLTDL ClubPA, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    It's all good, I know dick about the Air Force.

    And while the odd A2 may still be floating around in every Army unit, the majority of Combat Arms units (Infantry, Engineers, Scouts) are using A4s, or M4s. Which while not the best weapon for MOUT is still perfectly serviceable, and I much prefer it over an MP5 which has no use outside of MOUT. Though to be honest if I never fire an M16 again it wouldn't break my heart. I <3 my M249.

    And yes, the pay has gotten quite nice. 2800 a month after taxes as a single soldier with no living expenses? Yes please.

    TDL on
    Meet me on my vast veranda
    My sweet, untouched Miranda
    And while the seagulls are crying
    We fall but our souls are flying
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Thank God

    You don't want Mercenaries ... there really doesn't need to be an end to that sentence. You never, ever, want soldiers of fortune mucking up your battlefield.

    The fact they were used at all is stupid in the extreme.

    Derrick on
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  • edited September 2007
    This content has been removed.

  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    TDL wrote: »
    It's all good, I know dick about the Air Force.

    And while the odd A2 may still be floating around in every Army unit, the majority of Combat Arms units (Infantry, Engineers, Scouts) are using A4s, or M4s. Which while not the best weapon for MOUT is still perfectly serviceable, and I much prefer it over an MP5 which has no use outside of MOUT. Though to be honest if I never fire an M16 again it wouldn't break my heart. I <3 my M249.

    And yes, the pay has gotten quite nice. 2800 a month after taxes as a single soldier with no living expenses? Yes please.

    Hehe off-base housing allowance FTW!

    Zahaladeen on
  • TDLTDL ClubPA, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    I knew an E-1 who made half again what I did right out of basic. He just happened to be married, and his wife lived in a high BAH area. That's the good life.

    EDIT: And this has gotten off track...

    TDL on
    Meet me on my vast veranda
    My sweet, untouched Miranda
    And while the seagulls are crying
    We fall but our souls are flying
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Derrick wrote: »
    Thank God

    You don't want Mercenaries ... there really doesn't need to be an end to that sentence. You never, ever, want soldiers of fortune mucking up your battlefield.

    The fact they were used at all is stupid in the extreme.

    The idea was VP Dick Cheney's, and implemented at his behest by fmr. SecDef Donald Rumsfeld as what he described as a "leaner, meaner, highly mobile military force" (paraphrased from 'State of Denial' by Bob Woodward). PMC's aka mercenaries played a large roll in this new DoD restructure, and shortly after Blackwater USA CEO Erik Prince was tapped by the White House to lead the PMC charge in Iraq.

    Interestingly enough, Erik Prince also sits on the super-secret Christian fundamentalist organization known as the Council for National Policy. This group is a roll-call of former leaders of industry, state, and Christianity that every Republican looking for state or federal office needs to court if they wish to get elected. Gov. George Bush had to see the CNP before he sought the presidency.

    I could write pages on these guys. Scary stuff.

    Zahaladeen on
  • mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    mrflippy wrote: »
    What do PMC and BAF stand for?

    PMC - Private Military Contractor.

    AKA the PC way of saying "mercenary".
    Man how does he not know what a PMC is?
    Haven't you been following MGS4!

    </sarcasm>
    I actually didn't know what a PMC was till that MGS trailer.

    I think I played 5 minutes of a Metal Gear Solid game once. I was hidden under a box and was sneaking past guards.
    No mention of PMCs

    mrflippy on
  • Venkman90Venkman90 Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Also worth noting the market for former SAS, GSG9, GIGN, Aus SAS, Mossad etc...

    Not sure if Blackwater only hires US forces but most PMC companies are open to all SF groups (they cross train so much you might aswell be getting them from any of the main Nato countrys).

    Venkman90 on
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Also worth noting the market for former SAS, GSG9, GIGN, Aus SAS, Mossad etc...

    Not sure if Blackwater only hires US forces but most PMC companies are open to all SF groups (they cross train so much you might aswell be getting them from any of the main Nato countrys).

    Interestingly enough, various PMC's do hire from local and foreign talent, but Blackwater USA got caught in a pinch when it was disclosed that they were hiring mercs from Chile, former soldiers in Augusto Pinochets army. People of dubious morality that did some pretty horrible things during the late unplesentness.

    Zahaladeen on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Also worth noting the market for former SAS, GSG9, GIGN, Aus SAS, Mossad etc...

    Not sure if Blackwater only hires US forces but most PMC companies are open to all SF groups (they cross train so much you might aswell be getting them from any of the main Nato countrys).

    Interestingly enough, various PMC's do hire from local and foreign talent, but Blackwater USA got caught in a pinch when it was disclosed that they were hiring mercs from Chile, former soldiers in Augusto Pinochets army. People of dubious morality that did some pretty horrible things during the late unplesentness.

    Not to mention finding former SA thugs in the Sandbox as well.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • BongoBongo Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    200px-Shadow_company_poster.jpg

    If you guys are interested in PMC's, their life, and the differences between some of the bigger name ones or just general stuff, I urge to check out the documentary Shadow Company. It's really solid and is one of my favs.

    Bongo on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Having worked in the industry, I really have to say that this is not at all surprising. Blackwater are a horrible operation, well known in the industry for hiring psychos and behaving like idiots. As much as they like to bullshit about it, their hiring policy is pretty loose. Having served time in a combat unit pretty much qualifies you to work for them. Dishonorable discharge isn't a deal breaker either.

    Belketre on
  • LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    U.S. businesses outsourcing, of course.

    At least its to a english speaking US owned company ;-)

    Anyways, its absurd how much people are making in Iraq, even for civilian related work. A former coworker's wife was in Iraq for a few months last year, came back and bought a fancy new car for him in cash.

    LondonBridge on
  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Can I hit the exploding rocks? San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Great news, IMO. Now they need to get rid of all the other private mercenary contractors.

    OtakuD00D on
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  • NocturneNocturne Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    All I have to say is Blackwater, DynaCorp, Triple Canopy.

    What the fuck is with the horribly scary videogame/Tom Clancy Novel names?

    Seriously. They aren't even trying to hide the fact that this is some shady shit.

    Nocturne on
  • Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    Dishonorable discharge isn't a deal breaker either.
    Just proves a capability and willingness to think outside the box!

    Panda4You on
  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Two of the guys that were in my unit when we were in Afghanistan work for Blackwater in Iraq. Well, did, I guess. Both of them were fucking idiots who liked shooting dogs, cats and harassing anyone they could get away with harassing.

    Puscifer on
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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Nocturne wrote: »
    All I have to say is Blackwater, DynaCorp, Triple Canopy.

    What the fuck is with the horribly scary videogame/Tom Clancy Novel names?

    Seriously. They aren't even trying to hide the fact that this is some shady shit.

    Well they do want to sound "Fucking mean." Splinter Cell has a PMC called Displace International, run by Sam Fisher's homie, Douglas Shetland.

    Cantido on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Cantido wrote: »
    Nocturne wrote: »
    All I have to say is Blackwater, DynaCorp, Triple Canopy.

    What the fuck is with the horribly scary videogame/Tom Clancy Novel names?

    Seriously. They aren't even trying to hide the fact that this is some shady shit.

    Well they do want to sound "Fucking mean." Splinter Cell has a PMC called Displace International, run by Sam Fisher's homie, Douglas Shetland.

    Sounding mean isn't good for public relations. They should have named their companies things like Happy Puppies and Kitten and Rainbows Inc.

    Couscous on
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