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Ability to forgive...
DrZiplock
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Cliche? Very. But I need to put into words...somewhere, what has my head spinning and me throwing up every hour or so.
I just learned that my girlfriend of a year has been involved in a relationship with another man since July.
We're long distance and she took a summer job at a bar/restaurant. They met there. Sounds like it started not too long after they met.
I was suspicious (I had seen texts, myspace *ugh* and things).
Asked if there was something I should know...made reference to him directly.
She calmed me down and said no...that there was nothing.
About 3 weeks ago she was down with me and there were more texts and voicemails. Again, I saw some. He wrote, "I miss your touch." along with some other things.
Again...I questioned her..and she denied. Told me he was becoming obsessive..almsot stalkerish.
This is the same week that I told her, for the first time, that I love her. I don't use the word lightly and she knows that. She said it back..there were tears and such. Now, thinking about it, I don't know if the tears were because of guilt or just happiness.
I went to ireland and I got emails from her that were the sweetest thing I could imagine, and a handmade card that brought me to tears when I got back.
He...had a new blog posts up. Making me question things...making me wonder. I asked and she said that she recieved flowers from him while I was away and that she promptly threw them away.
There was talk of breaking off all contact with him and things like that. She told me she would and that it was fine, I shouldn't worry. That she was going to the manager and GM at her work...
Apparently she did break it off with him and the dude is a wreck...enough so that his friends are seeking revenge against this girl. They sent me video proof of them together. There was hugging...and kissing. Speaking with the friends, there was also more.
Girl doesn't know that I know all this yet, and I'm going to see her this friday (I was supposed to be meeting a bunch of family and such).
Do I forgive? Can I? Do I just walk away? Can I trust anything?
Help.
I just learned that my girlfriend of a year has been involved in a relationship with another man since July.
We're long distance and she took a summer job at a bar/restaurant. They met there. Sounds like it started not too long after they met.
I was suspicious (I had seen texts, myspace *ugh* and things).
Asked if there was something I should know...made reference to him directly.
She calmed me down and said no...that there was nothing.
About 3 weeks ago she was down with me and there were more texts and voicemails. Again, I saw some. He wrote, "I miss your touch." along with some other things.
Again...I questioned her..and she denied. Told me he was becoming obsessive..almsot stalkerish.
This is the same week that I told her, for the first time, that I love her. I don't use the word lightly and she knows that. She said it back..there were tears and such. Now, thinking about it, I don't know if the tears were because of guilt or just happiness.
I went to ireland and I got emails from her that were the sweetest thing I could imagine, and a handmade card that brought me to tears when I got back.
He...had a new blog posts up. Making me question things...making me wonder. I asked and she said that she recieved flowers from him while I was away and that she promptly threw them away.
There was talk of breaking off all contact with him and things like that. She told me she would and that it was fine, I shouldn't worry. That she was going to the manager and GM at her work...
Apparently she did break it off with him and the dude is a wreck...enough so that his friends are seeking revenge against this girl. They sent me video proof of them together. There was hugging...and kissing. Speaking with the friends, there was also more.
Girl doesn't know that I know all this yet, and I'm going to see her this friday (I was supposed to be meeting a bunch of family and such).
Do I forgive? Can I? Do I just walk away? Can I trust anything?
Help.
DrZiplock on
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That's not to say you should trust her or attempt to continue the relationship. It is possible to forgive her and still break up.
Keeping it together while I typed that and then while I sit here in my office isn't....easy.
I drank myself to sleep last night and any food that I stick into my stomach seems to not want to hang out all too long.
Forgiving is divine, that much I understand.
To be perfectly honest....I'd like to forgive to the point of staying with her. However, I don't know if thats prudent, wise, possible.
If I don't? Then, yes. I can likely forgive it over time....after I break her spirit.
God, it disgusts me to even type that. I am, generally, not a vengeful person.
I had always asked that she just be honest with me. That was it.
So simple...and yet here I am.
Just think about what you would tell someone else in a similar situation. Getting some sort of revenge will feel good for a little while, but it makes things worse in the long run.
Since she's established a pattern of violating your trust, I'd have to recommend that you break it off for good. If you go back to her and she hurts you again, you will very likely end up having serious issues trusting anyone and you'll be miserable for years.
Don't be a prick, and don't seek revenge, it's not worth it... especially if you did something that would get you in trouble. Cheating and lying may be bad, but they don't exactly get you in much trouble unless you do it in court under oath.
That said, I would talk to her once to get things straight. Lay it all on the table. Myspace messages, texts, pictures/video/whatever from friends. Just put it out there and see what she says.
Based on that, that determines where it goes. But if the evidence you have is clear and there is no mistake to be made about it (Not just a single stupid kiss at a party or something) then I don't think anything she says will make a difference, but it might.
That said, assuming she was cheating? You don't have to forgive her, because you don't owe her any further thought... none.
I do not believe in the once a cheater, always a cheater bullshit, but she's clearly been playing you for a sap. She's had her chance to come clean and do right by the relationship and she screwed it up. Because of that? Move the fuck on. If you stick through this, there is a good chance you send the message that she can walk all over you and have 0 consequences.
Break it off, completely, and then maybe she'll learn that her actions actually do affect her. Then maybe she won't fuck up with the next guy, or maybe she will, who knows.
Go hang with some friends, have some fun, find another chick to have some fun with if it's your thing. This one is probably not worth saving, but ultimately that's your choice. And if you feel you have to "break her spirit" to stay with her, just drop this shit right now because it's not going to work out any way that's going to end up well.
There is a part of me that knows this and is cheering for you, Funky.
Understand there is also the part that is playing the devil's advocate.... it's just my nature. Take a look at all sides.
I've had trust issues already. This, pretty much, exact same thing happened in my last relationship. Girl knows this...knows that I have nightmares. Knows what went down.
I'm having the typical doubts and beliefs.... not being able to find someone again, thinking that it would be different when she gets down here (there was a plan to have her move in the next few months after the spring semester wraps up).
The kicker here is that I just moved. Like...3 weeks ago. New city, new job. For this..I'm not looking for a pity parade, but it did come into focus last night that I need to get some friends established here. I had nobody to turn to. Friends on the phone and things..but yea. Here I am on the internet.
And everyone's words in this thread are greatly appreciated.
I'm actually in contact with her now. I'm playing it cool. Still planning on seeing her this Friday. It'll all get put on the table then. I could have done it last night or over the phone...but yea...I need to see her eyes, and I want her to see mine. Though... something is up. Either the guilt is finally cracking her, or she knows I know...it'll be interesting.
However that conversation goes will dictate my next moves.
As for just walking away...yea. I know if it comes down to it I should. But can't I pretend for at least a day that sending her family and work place all the erotic photos that she's sent me would be fun?
And yeah, it's no problem to pretend to do that in your own mind, it can be soothing. But just don't dwell on it. I wanted to ruin my ex's shit REAL bad myself, because she fucked up and fucked up bad. But in the end, it's just not worth it.
Believe me when I say that you shouldn't go the path of revenge. It's your ego, dude- you think "why wasn't I good enough?", "why can't anyone love me?", "what did I do to deserve this?" - the answer: NOTHING. You didn't do anything to deserve it. The hurt you feel is the shot to your ego, and the betrayal. I've been through all this before dude, and it SUCKS ASS. It sucks worse than anything. But trust me- it WILL get better. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. This might be a cliche, but it's true. When things seem hopeless, just realize that you are alive and all this pain will pass.
My advice would be to hear her out, forgive if you can, but break it off. Don't ask for details about what the 2 of them did together- that'll just hurt your self-esteem more, and you don't need to hear that shit anyway. As far as forgiveness is concerned, if that chick isn't hysterically bawling her eyes out because she fucked around behind your back, she isn't sorry. It's the truth when people say that if someone cheats once, and lies about it, they'll do it again, and will probably lie about other things. You can't trust a person like that, and you can't be in a relationship with someone you don't trust. You probably have an amazing mental image of this girl - you loved her, and you still do, which is why this sucks for you so much right now. But what you have to realize is that if this shit happened, she's not who you thought she was.
I'll repeat this, because I stand by it:
What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.
I've been through this so I feel for you, dude- I hope things work out for you, and don't worry- take some time for yourself after this ordeal, and eventually something will come along when you least expect it.
And don't send those pictures to her family, that's not cool. Photobucket them and send them to us.
Fuck her mother.
Let her know you are going to do, be nice about everything, but dont stop until you have fucked her mother.
Trust me.
She didn't sleep last night, was in too much emotional pain about something. Doesn't want to tell me via text, thinks it should wait until after work.
I asked her if it involves me, not to let it wait.
Looks like she's either going to come clean....or....lie some more.
Fuck dudes...now what the hell am I supposed to do? My plan of doing this face to face is fading fast...
I don't know what else to tell you about face to face vs. over the phone, but I stand by my earlier advice.
Correct. She may be too afraid to do it face to face, because she may not want to deal with the real consequences of her actions. Phone isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. If she comes clean then you at least get some closure to it all. Take what you can get, then find something to keep you occupied for a few. Feel free to be angry and pissed off if it goes down like that, just don't do anything dumb.
Either way, if she comes clean or lies to you some more, you should just walk away from the relationship. It doesn't seem to be worth it.
Well BOO HOO. Seriously fuck that. That she's feeling, that my son is guilt. A deep deep soul crushing guilt and she's gonna feel buckets of it. And she, most likely, thinks very very poorly of herself right now over what she did, and sees you as possible comfort. And NONE of her pain should bother you; she did it to you, she is not the victim here.
Its dead simple-
Walk. A. Way.
"You and I are done. Sorry it turned out this way."
That's all there needs to be. Her explanations wont fix it, you don't need them.
(continue to) Listen to the other posters. Shes damaged goods now, you know what she's capable of; You cannot trust a cheater, and for fuck's sake she lied twice to your face. She may come at you begging; pleading. But this thing is, this behavior is in her wiring (it was ok to do this on some level for her; it was perfectly fine to dick you over to chase a cheap feeling and lie about it). If you take her back, Somewhere down the road she will stray yet again and you will kick yourself.
Forgiveness can come later (and forgiving her before you are really ready to is emotionally a bad idea). And it will but for now walk walk walk. And, I know you were joking, Don't blow up her world by sending pictures she gave you out. Its bad form. Be bigger than her.
You sound pretty close to the right track man. I hope the best for you, I know you are in a sucky situation.
For real. Forgiveness should not even be a consideration for a while.
What makes me even angrier reading the OP, is that he confronted her multiple times, gave her an option to at least come clean. Instead she denied it, and the OP found out in a horrible way. And now she's heaping HER pain on him?
FUCK THAT.
Cut all contact from her.
Forgive later, on your terms, when you're ready for it. Don't forgive now, simply because you feel is the thing to do, or worse, because it will make her feel better.
She treated you in a way that no one deserves to be treated. The fact that she had the audicity to send you notes and texts of love, while being with this guy speaks great lenght of her lack of character. Get her out of your life, and be confident that there's someone better out there for you.
Second, I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but I don't necessarily think you should break up with her. The question is, could you still be with her and be happy. Obviously, this would take some work, but if you think it's possible that she could rebuild trust with you and you could be happy again, it's something to consider. If you don't think it's possible, then you should break up with her.
Third, you said you wanted to look at this from all perspectives, so here's one you may or may not have considered; you were in a long distance relationship when she cheated on you. Long distance relationships are difficult and not for everyone. Her behavior suggests that it's not for her. If you do chose to continue the relationship, you might want to think about closing that distance. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the distance excuses her betrayal, but may have been a contributing factor.
Not trying to sound mean, but it is extrordinarily easy to not cheat on someone. She activly chose to cheat on him (knowing full well what it would do to him). Relationships are part work it's true, but trust should never take too much effort. If you have to (hypotheticaly) constantly force yourself to look past earlier transgressions then you're not in a good place.
To the first part: I'm not going to say that they 100% should not get back together, but I AM going to say that if they do, it's not going to just "be hard" -- something like this we'll require starting all over again from the beginning. He'll have to be able to give her a clean slate, maybe take some time off and find a way to forgive her, and then return to the relationship with no feelings of betrayal or aggression. She betrayed his trust, she failed to communicate properly -- if a relationship is a house, she just took a hammer and smashed up the foundation of that house. It needs a fresh slate. I feel inclined to say, however, that after something like this, I wouldn't recommend it.
To the second part: That is indeed another perspective, but then you can also argue that she should have very well been mature enough to say "This isn't working for me, I'm sorry, I have feelings for you but if we can't be closer to each other, this will not work." Instead of doing this, she cheated and lied. There's no reason she couldn't have just said something and ended it or let him know how she was feeling. That she couldn't or didn't speaks volumes more about the relationship than the actual cheating.
To the original poster: You do not necessarily have to FORGIVE her, I don't believe. You do have to let go, though. At some point you will have to "let her off the hook," you have to know that this was just one girl and one situation. Don't let it cloud your outlook from here on out just because some girl was too immature to communicate properly.
Like I said above, I would recommend just ending it here. She betrayed your trust, she told you that she loved you while she ran back into the arms of another guy. You gave her more opportunities than she deserved to come clean, and instead of doing that, she betrayed you even further by lying to you. Her feelings for you may very well be real, she may really love you, but you have to understand that you deserve more than that.
I know it won't feel that way now, but a relationship is more than just love. Trust, communication, understand, TRUST. These are all very important things in a relationship - you deserve respect, to have someone who can open up and talk to you honestly if something is wrong. You don't deserve to be with someone who will sneak around on you when they're feeling alone or unfulfilled in some way.
I'm sorry this happened, and sorry that you found out this way. I hope you can end what's left of the relationship calmly and you're able to move on and get some kind of peace. Don't carry this over after this relationship ends, though. Make your peace, get closure, and realize that some people do stupid things for stupid reasons. It doesn't make her feelings for you less real, it just means that she's not in any place right now where she can give you the kind of relationship you deserve.
Remember though. Forgiveness is also not instantaneous, it is a process. Sometimes it is quick, sometimes it is not. You don't have to forgive her, if you don't particularly want to. It sounds like you care about her, and for that reason alone, were it me, forgiveness would be the VERY FIRST thing I work toward.
As for whether or not you should still be going out with her? That is your decision. Don't decide yet. Do some soul searching, do not let your doubts guide you. The only way you are going to make a proper decision is if you use all the strength and willpower that you have... I have been in the same situation, and it is not easy.
Take a little bit of time to breathe. Imagine you're alone on an island with a peaceful ocean, and just live in your thoughts for awhile. Don't let them take you over though, organize them. Think about them deeply and do everything you can to free yourself of their grasp on you. The moment you can think rationally and come to terms with both your emotions and your logical mind, your decision becomes your own.
I know things are difficult for you right now. You're probably having a bit of difficulty keeping composure... but you're capable of it. Your will is stronger than what you're going through. Take control of yourself, then take control of the situation. Everything that follows, as well as the advice from these people you have taken the initiative to ask for, will guide you through.
Yeah, exactly. All it takes is "I have a boyfriend, sorry" and if the guy doesn't get it, she repeats "look, I have a boyfriend, I'm not interested in you."
Her stories, and the texts/emails, tell the story for the OP. She wanted to be with the guy and was only feeling guilty after the fact. "OMG I kissed him, I bet my boyfriend would be so upset with me, wah wah." Man, I know I just can't go through the day without people all kissing on me against my will.
yeah... i might understand forgiving if it was like a one time "i was really drunk i'm sorry it will never happen again" and she told me the very next day through a veil of tears, but this girl continued to lie to him (even to his face) about it. i made the mistake of taking my ex back after she did the same thing to me... and she ended up doing it again, except i uncovered it, and she lied straight through her teeth the whole time i was telling her i found out about it.
OP, think of it this way. If you find a way to forgive her, and she convinces you to let her back... how long will it take for you to find out if she does it again? Will you find out? Will she figure that she just has to be more discreet?
More importantly, just how much did she have to do with the guy for him to be "a wreck?" Friends can play-flirt, but if one of them stops the other doesn't have an emotional breakdown.
As Rend says, forgiveness can take a lot of time. If you want to continue with her and she wants to continue with you, both of you are going to have to work on that to make it happen and to rebuild trust. This kind of thing can take years.
This is very very helpful, thank you.
I actually just got off the phone with her. Spent 2 hours on it.
She greeted me by actually mentioning a post I made in SE++ about how I was enjoying some rum to be able to get to sleep. Apparently she knew that a video or some warning had been sent my way..got wind of it last night and was waiting for me to say something. When I didn't, she did a little digging.
She came clean. To everything. Well...as clean as I can trust her to be (varies by the minute).
Things I do believe:
It's over between the two of them.
She feels horrible
She loves me
That she knows that our "house" is ruined. Everything that we had just went away in an instant. All because she didn't do the one thing that I'd always asked of her....to be honest.
Things I'm fuzzy on and not sure if I buy yet:
Only happened a few times
There was no sex (though..I'm tending to think not. There was something in her voice there that I haven't heard before. Tells me she's likely not lying on this one)
Time frame of some things
Things I can't believe at all:
That I'm still talking to her.
I went between calm, and angry, and wrecked..and all manner of crazy go nuts emotions. Still, my head is spinning.
Depending on how further talking tonight goes, I'm still planning on going up there tomorrow. Where we'll get to do all this again, but I'll be able to see her eyes when it happens. That and if, and I'm only saying if, this is to be the end... we owe it to each other to have that done face to face. Regardless of the fact that I owe her nothing at all.
I want to believe her. I want to forgive her....and however stupid this is...I want to still be with her.
However, there is going to be some deeeeep soul searching on this one as suggested by Rend. Because I need to understand what that would mean. What kind of burden that would place upon myself and my own mind.
I also need to be able to approach a possible relationship without a vindictive edge in my heart. There is suffering a plenty between us both right now...carrying that forward does no good.
There are stipulations that I've already built in though. She would have to hold herself accountable to my friends and my sister. There are only three people that I know that I've told of all of this.... and she will answer to every one of them. They can say things that I cannot...they are also the 3 that are telling me "what the fuck are you doing....run." She'll have to explain herself to them if she ever wants to be back in my life.
I told her to consider us done...and that she should pick her words as such. I asked her what she wanted. First answer? "For you to be happy."
It's actually sweet. Though..not was I was looking for. Second time around? "To be with you." More in line with what I was thinking. And then she spoke for awhile about why. And I asked why shouldn't I just hang up and walk away...and she answered as best she could. It's not an easy question..especially when raw emotion tends to must up "because" as an answer for anyone who has had a pulse.
There are coals to be walked over, on hands and knees, at the moment. But if this is going to work, I can't carry a grudge or vice, or past anger around with me. I can't be a walking vessel of ill will.
Even if this ends...I still can't be that blackened soul that I almost wish I could.
Ain't that just a bitch.
does she have a car?
I remember going to see my ex for the exact reasons you are .... drove 5 hours .... at the end I forgot and forgave
One guess what happened after she figured out I'd forget and forgive.
She has a car, though..one that won't make the trip. All the other times she's been here it's been via train. And you're right...I'm certainly seeing a point.
Maybe I'll ask that she come to me...be on my home turf as opposed to a hotel room somewhere. It'll save me the cash at least.
Though, at this point, I'm not concerning myself with the where's and details like that. Figure there are bigger things that I need to wrap my head around.
Be careful man. You seem pretty willing to accept some of the stuff going on in there.
You are in a bad way and seemingly trying to deal with a person whom hurt you very badly.
So now she wants it all back? Come on man.
What is the worst thing she could do to you? If she had killed you it would not hurt.
THIS IS IT. Betrayal is as deep a cut as you get man.
Seriously cut off all contact for a few days and think about this.
This is bigger than the trip. Postpone it. You have been emotionally bombarded. You, regardless of what you think, most likely do not have your head on straight. Try to step as far back as you can. Remove all emotion and weigh the judgment on facts. Seriously step back from this and think about it hard. And do it unjaded by feelings you had for her.
I feel like you are going to go and get back together from your choice of words.... Which, dude, is fine. But consensus on this kinda thing is that you are trying to touch the stove again after it already scalded your hand.
try and take a few days away from this and seriously think about it.
At the same time, you need to address any anger you have. Simply repressing it because it's what "good" people do isn't good for you. And given that the situation is a emotional equivalent to a hammer to the head, it's not a good time to make any real long term decisions. At best, the two of you need time apart.
I do have to say that the "For you to be happy" answer really, really reeks of BS. It sounds like she's trying to say to you what she thinks you want to hear, and the messed up emotional situation combined with her emotions may be throwing your BS meter out of whack. I've been in your shoes and her shoes. And I won't say once a cheater always a cheater. I cheated on a girl when I was younger. It was a fucked up thing to do and it took a while for me to understand what a fuck up I was. But if she had taken me back then I probley would have kept doing it.
She may grow, you two may remain friends but right now you need to keep some distance. Love doesn't die instantly (unless of course there is a boat involved), and for long term relationships endings like this are complicated. You may still have feelings for her for a while. But it doesn't mean it's healthy for you to stay with her.
Edit: And under no circumstances when you meet with her do you engage in any kind of sexual relations. If you think your headspace is fucked up now, it will be orders of magnitude worse if you sleep together.
Also, to echo what the other person said, no sex - hell, don't even kiss her. I'd really strongly recommend you don't see her at all Friday and get your head straight, because this girl sounds like she's a pretty good liar and is probably doing it again now to get back with you and get rid of her guilt.
Bingo. OP should not think for a second that sex could not wreck him further here.
It's a trap.