The guy who subtitled Commu Break better get to these next.
I wouldn't mind knowing why Mitsuru keeps impaling Ikutsuki.
Not that he doesn't deserve it.
Also, I came upon the opening for FES. Awesome music, but the bonus content looks kind of ridiculous.
(Might be spoilery if you haven't beaten the regular game.)
Elizabeth's S Link is most likely my driving inspiration to want to play this. O_o
I was going to bring that up, thanks Blackjack. Saved me the trouble.
The SMT guys are such clever little bitches. They throw stuff like that out there, knowing that it will be misinterpreted, and people who are big enough fans will do the research and have an "Oh, okay..." moment.
Was traveling to other worlds the plan? I thought that Lucifer and the Demi-Fiend were about to storm heaven and battle YHVH, in an, ‘it’s us or them,’ final battle? Honestly, I’m completely confused how you battle with the Absolute One…
Yeah that's the main goal but they also mentioned how many other worlds there are that follow the same cycle of creation and destruction. Lucifer seemed kind of intent on stopping that whole process. I haven't seen the TDE in a while though but I do remember they were marching on to the final battle so..... I don't really know. I think the tagline from God at the end hinted that it wasn't the end after that though.
If they ever do another SMT, though, I doubt it'll resolve anything. Don't they all tell separate stories?
Well, aside from Lucifer being a mainstay... considering that, maybe there will be something involving him in another core game.
I like the idea of the Demi-Fiend travelling worlds, explaining his presence in DDS, but that's probably overanalyzing what was probably just fanservice for Nocturne vets. :P
They tell seperate stories, but the first two were really strongly connected too. Nocturne and 2 are maybe, possibly connected.
Hijiri's curse is basically what god said he'd do to Aleph in SMT2. Might just be another fanservice think like you mentioned, though.
Lucifer does mention in 2 how he keeps reforming on different worlds whenever he dies due to god in SMT being a huge asshole, so I guess the traveling to other worlds to stop the cycle thing could work.
They tell seperate stories, but the first two were really strongly connected too. Nocturne and 2 are maybe, possibly connected.
Hijiri's curse is basically what god said he'd do to Aleph in SMT2. Might just be another fanservice think like you mentioned, though.
Lucifer does mention in 2 how he keeps reforming on different worlds whenever he dies due to god in SMT being a huge asshole, so I guess the traveling to other worlds to stop the cycle thing could work.
I've only played DDS, Nocturne, and Persona 3, so I have only a loose grasp on the character's personalites from earlier games. However, isn't God portrayed in the more recent games as not quite so blatantly evil? Or am I mistaken, and He's still the ultimate enemy of humanity?
Well, both DDS2 and Nocturne (all normal Reason endings) seemed to end
with killing God, or God-like figures.
That bit about Lucifer reminds me of one of the Gehenna endings for Vampire: the Masquerade:
The world is ravaged by the antedeluvians duking it out, with almost all life extinguished. A hand bursts out of the soil, and a man climbs out of the ground looking across the barren world. It is Caine, the first vampire, cursed to live forever on this quiet earth. "Fucking hell, just kill me already," he pleads. God laughs.
Yeah, and I love the games and the stories most of all, but I just wish instead of making God the "new Satan," they'd make him have more shades of grey and be more ambiguous, and not just be the all-powerful ass-hole.
They tell seperate stories, but the first two were really strongly connected too. Nocturne and 2 are maybe, possibly connected.
Hijiri's curse is basically what god said he'd do to Aleph in SMT2. Might just be another fanservice think like you mentioned, though.
Lucifer does mention in 2 how he keeps reforming on different worlds whenever he dies due to god in SMT being a huge asshole, so I guess the traveling to other worlds to stop the cycle thing could work.
I've only played DDS, Nocturne, and Persona 3, so I have only a loose grasp on the character's personalites from earlier games. However, isn't God portrayed in the more recent games as not quite so blatantly evil? Or am I mistaken, and He's still the ultimate enemy of humanity?
Well, he's pretty dammed bad. He went through the various pantheons and kicked the bigger gods out/made them in to demons if they didn't submit to his ideals about law.
I wouldn't say he's the enemy of mankind, more like the zookeeper. He does protect them from various nasties so long as they follow him without question and supply him with sweet, sweet faith power, but if they disobey him then they get an archangel up the ass.
Ratmike on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Yeah, and I love the games and the stories most of all, but I just wish instead of making God the "new Satan," they'd make him have more shades of grey and be more ambiguous, and not just be the all-powerful ass-hole.
I think the developers just like to shed light on different perspectives. Lucifer's automatically pigeonholed as evil, so they give him a lot of time to voice his side of the story; so to speak.
Shoot, he's one of the nicest people you meet in DemiKids, which is messed up.
He's basically like "Hi kids, I'm Lucifer! Mind doing me a few favors?"
Cj, that reminds me of a Mark Twain story that was used in a claymation movie from the 80s. I think it was called the Mysterious Stranger. Creepy as hell. Youtube it if you have the time.
Ratmike, that sounds like a really interesting concept. Which SMT game did that take place in?
Yeah, and I love the games and the stories most of all, but I just wish instead of making God the "new Satan," they'd make him have more shades of grey and be more ambiguous, and not just be the all-powerful ass-hole.
I think the developers just like to shed light on different perspectives. Lucifer's automatically pigeonholed as evil, so they give him a lot of time to voice his side of the story; so to speak.
Shoot, he's one of the nicest people you meet in DemiKids, which is messed up.
He's basically like "Hi kids, I'm Lucifer! Mind doing me a few favors?"
Actually, that's how I imagine he would work. Attract more flies with honey and all that. Nobody will want to work for Lucifer outright unless they're just plain evil but if he slowly persuades you, you may turn to his side or you may do things that benefit him and nobody else without realizing it.
Yeah, and I love the games and the stories most of all, but I just wish instead of making God the "new Satan," they'd make him have more shades of grey and be more ambiguous, and not just be the all-powerful ass-hole.
I think the developers just like to shed light on different perspectives. Lucifer's automatically pigeonholed as evil, so they give him a lot of time to voice his side of the story; so to speak.
Shoot, he's one of the nicest people you meet in DemiKids, which is messed up.
He's basically like "Hi kids, I'm Lucifer! Mind doing me a few favors?"
Actually, that's how I imagine he would work. Attract more flies with honey and all that. Nobody will want to work for Lucifer outright unless they're just plain evil but if he slowly persuades you, you may turn to his side or you may do things that benefit him and nobody else without realizing it.
Are you a fan of that new Reaper show? He sort of works that way.
Yeah, if my idea actually got heard, I'd definately make Lucifer one of the Social Links. A lot of gods would be a hoot. "It's Thor on the line. He wants you to know if you're free on Sunday. What do you say?" "I have other plans." "Thor sounds disappointed."
EmperorSeth on
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
Yeah, and I love the games and the stories most of all, but I just wish instead of making God the "new Satan," they'd make him have more shades of grey and be more ambiguous, and not just be the all-powerful ass-hole.
I think the developers just like to shed light on different perspectives. Lucifer's automatically pigeonholed as evil, so they give him a lot of time to voice his side of the story; so to speak.
Shoot, he's one of the nicest people you meet in DemiKids, which is messed up.
He's basically like "Hi kids, I'm Lucifer! Mind doing me a few favors?"
Actually, that's how I imagine he would work. Attract more flies with honey and all that. Nobody will want to work for Lucifer outright unless they're just plain evil but if he slowly persuades you, you may turn to his side or you may do things that benefit him and nobody else without realizing it.
One of the best portrayals of Lucifer I've ever read is in Neil Gaiman's Sandman and Mike Carey's Lucifer (they're the same character). This was all just heavily based on his character from Paradise Lost which aimed to portray him as a somewhat Shakespearean hero with a tragic flaw (hubris) rather than the father of all lies. Good stuff.
In video game news, I started Nocturne last night and though I only played for about an hour, I love it already. I typically like to take a challenge and play games on the hardest difficulty presented at the beginning, but I felt that based on what everyone said here, I'd probably be better off playing it on Normal first. I haven't even fought the first boss yet, but I should get a chance to play more tonight.
Oh jebus, yes, play it on Normal first. Nocturne is Serious Business on Hard... it's difficult to get through the first combat area even for experienced players because one crit can take over two thirds of your starting health, and your only special attack takes away your health, too.
As for other depictions of Lucifer, I'm a big fan of Demon: The Fallen's version.
In the beginning, there is only love. Angels love God, and they love the first humans. They are confused by the two laws they're given: Love humanity and never reveal themselves to the humans, but they obey nonetheless. A minor angel forsees a great tragedy regarding humans and the angels debate the issue. They realize that humans are little more than apes, with no greater understanding outside their immediate needs. They can't possibly deal with a major crisis on their own.
Lucifer, the greatest of the angels, arrives and says that they're going to go behind God's back and reveal themselves to humanity so that they can avert the coming cataclysm. They go to Adam and Eve, and Lucifer temporarally gives them the ability to comprehend what they're seeing and communicate. Imagine waking up one day and seeing three million angels telling you they love you and want to help you... oh and by the way, do you want to go back to being a mindless animal, or do you want to keep the ability to retain knowledge? Rough choice.
A thousand years go by in the space of a single night, and the humans multiply and spread out. Then the Creator finally notices the betrayal and curses the disobedient angels to become Fallen, cutting them off from the Divine Grace that sustained them. Cast out from heaven, the renegades are forced to take Faith energy from humans as their war with Heaven begins. It turns out that the coming catastrophe was one that the angels themselves cause.
Many atrocities ensue after a human, Caine, causes the First Murder and teaches the angels and Fallen how to kill, and how to lie. In the end, though, the Fallen lose and are cast into the Abyss... all but Lucifer, who is punished by remaining on Earth and being forced to witness the debasement of humanity and his brothers and sisters, twisted by Hell and their anger over their general "abandoning" them, summoned into the world to spread chaos and insanity. God, it seemed, no longer cares, and leaves the Earth with all (or perhaps just most) of Her angels for parts unknown.
In the end, he reveals the truth:
God told him to rebel and begin the chain of events that would eventually lead to his fall. He doesn't know why. He didn't ask. He was a loyal soldier, and even up to his death at the hands of a jealous Fiend, there were still things Lucifer didn't know about God's plan. He was fairly pissed about that, though, and spent most of his time trying to undo the damage that he had wrought.
Oh jebus, yes, play it on Normal first. Nocturne is Serious Business on Hard... it's difficult to get through the first combat area even for experienced players because one crit can take over two thirds of your starting health, and your only special attack takes away your health, too.
As for other depictions of Lucifer, I'm a big fan of Demon: The Fallen's version.
In the beginning, there is only love. Angels love God, and they love the first humans. They are confused by the two laws they're given: Love humanity and never reveal themselves to the humans, but they obey nonetheless. A minor angel forsees a great tragedy regarding humans and the angels debate the issue. They realize that humans are little more than apes, with no greater understanding outside their immediate needs. They can't possibly deal with a major crisis on their own.
Lucifer, the greatest of the angels, arrives and says that they're going to go behind God's back and reveal themselves to humanity so that they can avert the coming cataclysm. They go to Adam and Eve, and Lucifer temporarally gives them the ability to comprehend what they're seeing and communicate. Imagine waking up one day and seeing three million angels telling you they love you and want to help you... oh and by the way, do you want to go back to being a mindless animal, or do you want to keep the ability to retain knowledge? Rough choice.
A thousand years go by in the space of a single night, and the humans multiply and spread out. Then the Creator finally notices the betrayal and curses the disobedient angels to become Fallen, cutting them off from the Divine Grace that sustained them. Cast out from heaven, the renegades are forced to take Faith energy from humans as their war with Heaven begins. It turns out that the coming catastrophe was one that the angels themselves cause.
Many atrocities ensue after a human, Caine, causes the First Murder and teaches the angels and Fallen how to kill, and how to lie. In the end, though, the Fallen lose and are cast into the Abyss... all but Lucifer, who is punished by remaining on Earth and being forced to witness the debasement of humanity and his brothers and sisters, twisted by Hell and their anger over their general "abandoning" them, summoned into the world to spread chaos and insanity. God, it seemed, no longer cares, and leaves the Earth with all (or perhaps just most) of Her angels for parts unknown.
In the end, he reveals the truth:
God told him to rebel and begin the chain of events that would eventually lead to his fall. He doesn't know why. He didn't ask. He was a loyal soldier, and even up to his death at the hands of a jealous Fiend, there were still things Lucifer didn't know about God's plan. He was fairly pissed about that, though, and spent most of his time trying to undo the damage that he had wrought.
That's pretty neat. Are they planning on brining Demon over to NWoD like they did with changeling?
I haven't heard anything yet. They're bringing one new minor game line in per year, and this year's game is going to be a Hunter variant... so if we do get a nWoD demon game, it won't be for a year at least.
I genuinely got the feeling that Lucifer was the good guy in Nocturne. Or, at least, the better side.
I mean, damn, at least he takes an active hand in proceedings. All YHWH does is send Metatron to kick your ass when you start getting uppity; sure, Lucifer's manipulative, but all he's trying to do is create a protege strong enough to rebel against a ruler who is perfectly happy to let humanity completely fuck itself up repeatedly.
That said, I think the neutral ending is most likely the canon one;
the demi-fiend's appearance in DDS is pretty easily explained as a hallucination (and fan-service, of course).
Speaking of DDS, what do we all reckon of the ending?
I figured Schrodinger was the Serph portion of Seraph, whereas the playable Seraph was more heavily weighted towards Sera. Makes the part of the ending where the two Seraphs grab each other's hands a nice flashback to DDS1's ending, where Seraph and Sera are just out of reach from one another.
Speaking of DDS, what do we all reckon of the ending?
I figured Schrodinger was the Serph portion of Seraph, whereas the playable Seraph was more heavily weighted towards Sera. Makes the part of the ending where the two Seraphs grab each other's hands a nice flashback to DDS1's ending, where Seraph and Sera are just out of reach from one another.
My thoughts exactly. I think it's happiness.
I really like how SMT plays around with the idea of religion, challenging the black-and-white division set in the Bible. You know, sometimes I feel bad for Lucifer, if he even really exists that is.
Speaking of DDS, what do we all reckon of the ending?
I figured Schrodinger was the Serph portion of Seraph, whereas the playable Seraph was more heavily weighted towards Sera. Makes the part of the ending where the two Seraphs grab each other's hands a nice flashback to DDS1's ending, where Seraph and Sera are just out of reach from one another.
Schrödinger is interesting in the fact that he's always there when needed. As such, he has an almost godlike or messianic feel about him; someone who watches over you and helps ensure what is supposed to take place does take place. Early on in DDS2, his most obvious appearance is on the Game Over screen where he is encased in a lotus flower and, seemingly, looks down in disappointment.
Through this it is heavily implied that, simply, he is yet another manifestation of God, or Brahman. When you first face Brahman at the end of the game, the lotus flower also makes an appearance. The goal of Schrödinger is to have Serph somehow reach God and defeat him in battle. The purpose of this is not to kill God, but rather to prove that the will of humankind is strong and thus not deserving of the chaos currently being bestowed upon them on Earth.
Also:
Sera dies alongside Serph and their data is sent to the Sun. Their data combines to form Seraph, allowing them to prove to God that there is value within human life and that their world need not be destroyed. Unfortunately, enlightenment only comes to this new being and thus Serph and Sera are both reborn again on Earth.
Just one interpretation I guess.
One thing always bothered me about the beginning of DDS2:
How the hell did AI constructs get bodies in the real world? They were all just Sera's creations that she hid in the Junkyard. I know they were based on real people who had real bodies, but the jump from the Junkyard to the real world didn't make much sense to me.
I really like how SMT plays around with the idea of religion, challenging the black-and-white division set in the Bible. You know, sometimes I feel bad for Lucifer, if he even really exists that is.
Oh boy. Not this again.
Boring Bible lecture ensues:
Lucifer doesn't exist as believed in popular myth. It's a construction based on misreading the Bible, which is not really all that black-and-white on the issue. Hebrew scholars of the book of Isaiah are pretty sure that the passage about "Lucifer" (which is literally translated as "light bearer" in Latin, translated from the greek heosphoros, or "dawn bearer") is actually referring to the Babylonian king of the time. The reference calls him (in the original text) Helel, which is the name of a Babylonian god representing Venus (the "Morning Star"), who is the progeny of Sashar, the dawn-god. So, literally, "Son of the Morning." The entire thing is talking up this mortal king as such a bigshot, only to explain that he's fucked in the long run due to his pride and arrogance at imprisoning the Hebrew peoples. They hated that (and still do). Dante and others expounded on the mistaken translations and said that Lucifer was the being that fell from grace and became the "enemy."
Satan literally means, in Hebrew, "Adversary." You might say "Ah hah! This is the guy!" But no, not really. Lower case non-proper noun "satan" was the legal word they used to designate prosecutors in their legal system. In the book of Job, when the "satan" of God's court is tasked by God to screw poor Job over and kill his daughters (don't worry, he gets new daughters later for being a good guy) and salt his fields just to test his faith, the satan does it and follows up on the issue out of a sense of completeness. His arguments with God are more logical issues "Wait, your thesis on Job's faith can't be proven, because he still has gifts from you, like his health. Let's give him a rash and see what happens." If anything else, this just reinforces the idea that God is a collossal dick.
There's also speculation (also from the book of Job) that "Satan" could be translated as "The Wanderer," which, while I find unlikely given the other evidence, does make for interesting comparisons to SMT and Demon: The Fallen.
Anyway, suffice to say that, no, the evidence doesn't suggest that there was ever a "Lucifer" as Christians, Satanists, and Shin Megami Tensei would have you believe... even supposing for a minute that supernatural entities exist. I suppose you could count the Babylonian guy Helel as the source, but I seem to recall that he was one of the "good guys" of that pantheon.
I really like how SMT plays around with the idea of religion, challenging the black-and-white division set in the Bible. You know, sometimes I feel bad for Lucifer, if he even really exists that is.
Oh boy. Not this again.
Boring Bible lecture ensues:
Lucifer doesn't exist as believed in popular myth. It's a construction based on misreading the Bible, which is not really all that black-and-white on the issue. Hebrew scholars of the book of Isaiah are pretty sure that the passage about "Lucifer" (which is literally translated as "light bearer" in Latin, translated from the greek heosphoros, or "dawn bearer") is actually referring to the Babylonian king of the time. The reference calls him (in the original text) Helel, which is the name of a Babylonian god representing Venus (the "Morning Star"), who is the progeny of Sashar, the dawn-god. So, literally, "Son of the Morning." The entire thing is talking up this mortal king as such a bigshot, only to explain that he's fucked in the long run due to his pride and arrogance at imprisoning the Hebrew peoples. They hated that (and still do). Dante and others expounded on the mistaken translations and said that Lucifer was the being that fell from grace and became the "enemy."
Satan literally means, in Hebrew, "Adversary." You might say "Ah hah! This is the guy!" But no, not really. Lower case non-proper noun "satan" was the legal word they used to designate prosecutors in their legal system. In the book of Job, when the "satan" of God's court is tasked by God to screw poor Job over and kill his daughters (don't worry, he gets new daughters later for being a good guy) and salt his fields just to test his faith, the satan does it and follows up on the issue out of a sense of completeness. His arguments with God are more logical issues "Wait, your thesis on Job's faith can't be proven, because he still has gifts from you, like his health. Let's give him a rash and see what happens." If anything else, this just reinforces the idea that God is a collossal dick.
There's also speculation (also from the book of Job) that "Satan" could be translated as "The Wanderer," which, while I find unlikely given the other evidence, does make for interesting comparisons to SMT and Demon: The Fallen.
Anyway, suffice to say that, no, the evidence doesn't suggest that there was ever a "Lucifer" as Christians, Satanists, and Shin Megami Tensei would have you believe... even supposing for a minute that supernatural entities exist. I suppose you could count the Babylonian guy Helel as the source, but I seem to recall that he was one of the "good guys" of that pantheon.
So don't feel bad for him.
You're getting your SMT in my Bible! You're getting your Bible in my SMT!
(no seriously, I'm getting confused now. Which one is supposed to be the ruler of Hell or whatever, in both the Bible and the SMT worlds?)
I live in Poland, and it is a strongly Catholic country. God forbid you believe in something else! I'm an atheist myself, though I do tend to think about God from time to time, forming a completely abstract image of God. This would mean that I am searching for an answer from within myself, and, as laughable as it may sound, these games help me to see things in a new light. I felt particularly moved by Nocturne with its True Demon ending and the massive build up leading to it, and also with DDS, though I am still digesting the story.
Actually, the GBC Revelations games is the only one in this entire series I've actually played. It's quirky enough for me to possibly try out though, how is Persona 3 as an entry point?
Actually, the GBC Revelations games is the only one in this entire series I've actually played. It's quirky enough for me to possibly try out though, how is Persona 3 as an entry point?
It's my entry point, and it's fine so far for me. I know how you feel; I wanted to get into SMT for a while, but the decade+ history, numerous games, and various spinoffs made me nervous to even start.
EmperorSeth on
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
In all honesty it's not that I was intimidated or anything it's just that I had heard absolutely zilcho about the series until Persona 3 started getting hype on the forums. Didn't even know that demo in MGS3 was SMT.
We could probably go back and forth for days about the Devil and Satan and Lucifer and it would all boil down to a battle of semantics. There is an entity in Christian mythology who despises humanity and tempts "us" away from God. Due to different translations of the bible throughout history, those three names (among others) have been all mixed up and used to describe similar entities across different stories. Thirteen years of catholic schooling (weep for me) and I still don't really have it down...
In any case, the Lucifer that I've generally seen protrayed has been based on Milton's character from Paradise Lost which was probably an amalgamation of the Lucifer from Greek mythology, the devil from the bible, and Loki from Norse mythology, with some Shakespearean flair added as garnishing. This character is a very well-developed one, and seems to have become an archetype for the tragic/fallen hero (Kain from FF4, Sephiroth, Darth Vader, any guy who was good then turned bad).
Lucifer/Satan/Devil/Ruler of Hell basically all describe the same entity, but since all we've got to go on is the writing of some people who were "touched by God" as canon there's no serious scientific or standard basis for any of this. It all comes down to the context of the story that he's in.
SMT Lucifer:
Ruler/embodiment of a world of chaos. Polar opposite to God, ruler/embodiment of a world of law and order.
Though I've got very limited experience with the main series, so I could be wrong.
SlayerVin on
BE ATTITUDE FOR GAINS!
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
My first SMT was basically Persona 1. Probably the toughest game to start with imaginable. I didn't finish it until six months ago.
(Clocked 99:59, and I bet a good twenty hours of that was me navigating the last dungeon.)
In all honesty it's not that I was intimidated or anything it's just that I had heard absolutely zilcho about the series until Persona 3 started getting hype on the forums. Didn't even know that demo in MGS3 was SMT.
...I don't even remember a demo in MGS3. Huh, maybe I should dig that case out again. Or do you mean that bonus vampire-fighting game? Because I'm pretty sure that's not SMT.
Okay, here's a question for long-term fans. Did any game of the series do the S.Link thing before? I know a lot of them had you acquiring actual party members from enemy parties, but that's not really the same thing.
EmperorSeth on
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
You're getting your SMT in my Bible! You're getting your Bible in my SMT!
(no seriously, I'm getting confused now. Which one is supposed to be the ruler of Hell or whatever, in both the Bible and the SMT worlds?)
In the Hebrew Bible, there is no Hell, per se. They do speak of Gehenna (actual name reference: a burning hill of garbage outside of Jerusalem) as a place for the dead that isn't Sheol, which is the underground place that non-sinners go to hang out until Judgement Day (it's not exactly Heaven, though there is a nice area where you can chill with Abraham and his posse).
Gehenna is a place of eternal fire where sinners are punished for a year or so until being spat out into general population in Sheol, having been purified, though some are just zorched forever and destroyed.
As far as I know, there is no evil diety in the original Bible that rules Gehenna... it's just a burning pit and there aren't elaborate tortures or anything. Hell is mostly a Christian invention to scare people. The Jews, who aren't all that big into worrying about the afterlife, characteristically didn't go into a lot of detail on it back in the day.
As far as SMT goes... I don't really know. I'm not an expert, despite being a fan.
Dracomicron on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Okay, here's a question for long-term fans. Did any game of the series do the S.Link thing before? I know a lot of them had you acquiring actual party members from enemy parties, but that's not really the same thing.
Not to my knowledge... before P3, series tradition was making nice with demons so they'd join you/give you items. P3's the first one where actual friendships matter, I think.
In all honesty it's not that I was intimidated or anything it's just that I had heard absolutely zilcho about the series until Persona 3 started getting hype on the forums. Didn't even know that demo in MGS3 was SMT.
I'm with ya there. I had never even heard of the series until I started coming to G&T. Thanks for that, PA forums!
I live in Poland, and it is a strongly Catholic country. God forbid you believe in something else! I'm an atheist myself, though I do tend to think about God from time to time, forming a completely abstract image of God. This would mean that I am searching for an answer from within myself, and, as laughable as it may sound, these games help me to see things in a new light. I felt particularly moved by Nocturne with its True Demon ending and the massive build up leading to it, and also with DDS, though I am still digesting the story.
The only thing we can say about God is God.
I'm a big fan of religion despite not being religious. It's a good way to understand people, by understanding what they believe in (show me the newspaper, I'd rather read the Opinions page, and see what people believe rather than what they know).
Nocturne is a very interesting meditation on what it means to believe in something, and I love the SMT games for exactly this reason. The last two months of Persona 3 filled me with an immense sense of pride:
every single character chimed in on what they believed and why they fought, even though they were told that victory was impossible. I get a little wet around the eyes just thinking of Shinji saying, "Let's do this" in that final encounter with the seal.
I don't think it's laughable that you can use these games as a sounding board for personal reflection. Laudable, actually, is a better term. 8-)
Okay, here's a question for long-term fans. Did any game of the series do the S.Link thing before? I know a lot of them had you acquiring actual party members from enemy parties, but that's not really the same thing.
Not to my knowledge... before P3, series tradition was making nice with demons so they'd join you/give you items. P3's the first one where actual friendships matter, I think.
Even the other Personas? How did they work, then? And how did they handle dungeons in those days; were they like P3, or was it more traditional RPG dungeons?
How did Persona 3 do, money-wise? Do you think it was successful enough to affect how later games in the series act, even in the regular SMTs? I mean, I was mostly kidding about that "Thor is disappointed" stuff, but I could see it be a clever design concept. Maybe feature something like P3's Dark Hour, except it shifts to another reality entirely, where the various "demons" live in a semi-normal society you then get to/have to interact with. And I honestly can't imagine a game where "date a succubus" is a goal being a financial failure. I mean, given half the monsters in the series, it's not like the designers haven't considered it.
EmperorSeth on
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Okay, here's a question for long-term fans. Did any game of the series do the S.Link thing before? I know a lot of them had you acquiring actual party members from enemy parties, but that's not really the same thing.
Not to my knowledge... before P3, series tradition was making nice with demons so they'd join you/give you items. P3's the first one where actual friendships matter, I think.
Even the other Personas? How did they work, then? And how did they handle dungeons in those days; were they like P3, or was it more traditional RPG dungeons?
The first game had first-person dungeons, like Etrian Odyssey and Phantasy Star 1. Painful.
P2 uses isometric view(like Diablo, I guess). The battle system is pretty much identical; you either attack, or communicate.
Persona 1's communication system is vague('Dance/Talk/Bribe/Sing', varies between party members). It can either make a demon angry, scared, happy, or interested, and the different outcomes have different results. The main goal is to either get their spell card(which lets you contribute a spell towards a Persona fusion) or their monster card(which is used towards creating a Persona).
P2's a little different, since you just use a character's specific tactic to talk it out(Maya interviews, Baofu uses blackmail recordings), but for different results, they can be combined(Maya and Ulala ask for the demon's opinion on which of them is a better catch).
They just get angry, happy, or interested in P2. Instead of getting a monster's card, they can either give you spell cards, or Tarots. You don't need specific monster cards to summon Personas in 2; just a lot of a certain Tarot card(or you can take Free cards to the Artist in the Velvet Room to make any kind you want).
So yeah, P1 & 2 are a lot more complicated on the whole, but P3 added more social aspects to it, so it kind of balances out.
How did Persona 3 do, money-wise? Do you think it was successful enough to affect how later games in the series act, even in the regular SMTs? I mean, I was mostly kidding about that "Thor is disappointed" stuff, but I could see it be a clever design concept. Maybe feature something like P3's Dark Hour, except it shifts to another reality entirely, where the various "demons" live in a semi-normal society you then get to/have to interact with. And I honestly can't imagine a game where "date a succubus" is a goal being a financial failure. I mean, given half the monsters in the series, it's not like the designers haven't considered it.
Well, considering that Atlus considers Persona their main focus now(they're already working on the fourth game, an anime, and FES got greenlighted in, what, a few months?), I'd say it was a success over there.
As for how it did here, I guess we'll know in a few months. ;-)
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The guy who subtitled Commu Break better get to these next.
Also, I came upon the opening for FES. Awesome music, but the bonus content looks kind of ridiculous.
(Might be spoilery if you haven't beaten the regular game.)
I was going to bring that up, thanks Blackjack. Saved me the trouble.
The SMT guys are such clever little bitches. They throw stuff like that out there, knowing that it will be misinterpreted, and people who are big enough fans will do the research and have an "Oh, okay..." moment.
They tell seperate stories, but the first two were really strongly connected too. Nocturne and 2 are maybe, possibly connected.
Lucifer does mention in 2 how he keeps reforming on different worlds whenever he dies due to god in SMT being a huge asshole, so I guess the traveling to other worlds to stop the cycle thing could work.
That bit about Lucifer reminds me of one of the Gehenna endings for Vampire: the Masquerade:
God is pretty much a collossal dick in the World of Darkness, too. SMT isn't alone in that.
Who's that leave for the next game? Buddha?
I wouldn't say he's the enemy of mankind, more like the zookeeper. He does protect them from various nasties so long as they follow him without question and supply him with sweet, sweet faith power, but if they disobey him then they get an archangel up the ass.
I think the developers just like to shed light on different perspectives. Lucifer's automatically pigeonholed as evil, so they give him a lot of time to voice his side of the story; so to speak.
Shoot, he's one of the nicest people you meet in DemiKids, which is messed up.
He's basically like "Hi kids, I'm Lucifer! Mind doing me a few favors?"
Ratmike, that sounds like a really interesting concept. Which SMT game did that take place in?
Actually, that's how I imagine he would work. Attract more flies with honey and all that. Nobody will want to work for Lucifer outright unless they're just plain evil but if he slowly persuades you, you may turn to his side or you may do things that benefit him and nobody else without realizing it.
Are you a fan of that new Reaper show? He sort of works that way.
Yeah, if my idea actually got heard, I'd definately make Lucifer one of the Social Links. A lot of gods would be a hoot. "It's Thor on the line. He wants you to know if you're free on Sunday. What do you say?" "I have other plans." "Thor sounds disappointed."
One of the best portrayals of Lucifer I've ever read is in Neil Gaiman's Sandman and Mike Carey's Lucifer (they're the same character). This was all just heavily based on his character from Paradise Lost which aimed to portray him as a somewhat Shakespearean hero with a tragic flaw (hubris) rather than the father of all lies. Good stuff.
In video game news, I started Nocturne last night and though I only played for about an hour, I love it already. I typically like to take a challenge and play games on the hardest difficulty presented at the beginning, but I felt that based on what everyone said here, I'd probably be better off playing it on Normal first. I haven't even fought the first boss yet, but I should get a chance to play more tonight.
As for other depictions of Lucifer, I'm a big fan of Demon: The Fallen's version.
Lucifer, the greatest of the angels, arrives and says that they're going to go behind God's back and reveal themselves to humanity so that they can avert the coming cataclysm. They go to Adam and Eve, and Lucifer temporarally gives them the ability to comprehend what they're seeing and communicate. Imagine waking up one day and seeing three million angels telling you they love you and want to help you... oh and by the way, do you want to go back to being a mindless animal, or do you want to keep the ability to retain knowledge? Rough choice.
A thousand years go by in the space of a single night, and the humans multiply and spread out. Then the Creator finally notices the betrayal and curses the disobedient angels to become Fallen, cutting them off from the Divine Grace that sustained them. Cast out from heaven, the renegades are forced to take Faith energy from humans as their war with Heaven begins. It turns out that the coming catastrophe was one that the angels themselves cause.
Many atrocities ensue after a human, Caine, causes the First Murder and teaches the angels and Fallen how to kill, and how to lie. In the end, though, the Fallen lose and are cast into the Abyss... all but Lucifer, who is punished by remaining on Earth and being forced to witness the debasement of humanity and his brothers and sisters, twisted by Hell and their anger over their general "abandoning" them, summoned into the world to spread chaos and insanity. God, it seemed, no longer cares, and leaves the Earth with all (or perhaps just most) of Her angels for parts unknown.
In the end, he reveals the truth:
I haven't heard anything yet. They're bringing one new minor game line in per year, and this year's game is going to be a Hunter variant... so if we do get a nWoD demon game, it won't be for a year at least.
That said, I think the neutral ending is most likely the canon one;
Speaking of DDS, what do we all reckon of the ending?
My thoughts exactly. I think it's happiness.
I really like how SMT plays around with the idea of religion, challenging the black-and-white division set in the Bible. You know, sometimes I feel bad for Lucifer, if he even really exists that is.
I got this over at the Digital Devil Database DDS2 characters page (http://www.digitaldevildb.com/games/digital_devil_saga_2/characters_complete.php). It makes a lot of sense to me:
Through this it is heavily implied that, simply, he is yet another manifestation of God, or Brahman. When you first face Brahman at the end of the game, the lotus flower also makes an appearance. The goal of Schrödinger is to have Serph somehow reach God and defeat him in battle. The purpose of this is not to kill God, but rather to prove that the will of humankind is strong and thus not deserving of the chaos currently being bestowed upon them on Earth.
Also:
Just one interpretation I guess.
One thing always bothered me about the beginning of DDS2:
Oh boy. Not this again.
Boring Bible lecture ensues:
Satan literally means, in Hebrew, "Adversary." You might say "Ah hah! This is the guy!" But no, not really. Lower case non-proper noun "satan" was the legal word they used to designate prosecutors in their legal system. In the book of Job, when the "satan" of God's court is tasked by God to screw poor Job over and kill his daughters (don't worry, he gets new daughters later for being a good guy) and salt his fields just to test his faith, the satan does it and follows up on the issue out of a sense of completeness. His arguments with God are more logical issues "Wait, your thesis on Job's faith can't be proven, because he still has gifts from you, like his health. Let's give him a rash and see what happens." If anything else, this just reinforces the idea that God is a collossal dick.
There's also speculation (also from the book of Job) that "Satan" could be translated as "The Wanderer," which, while I find unlikely given the other evidence, does make for interesting comparisons to SMT and Demon: The Fallen.
Anyway, suffice to say that, no, the evidence doesn't suggest that there was ever a "Lucifer" as Christians, Satanists, and Shin Megami Tensei would have you believe... even supposing for a minute that supernatural entities exist. I suppose you could count the Babylonian guy Helel as the source, but I seem to recall that he was one of the "good guys" of that pantheon.
So don't feel bad for him.
You're getting your SMT in my Bible!
You're getting your Bible in my SMT!
(no seriously, I'm getting confused now. Which one is supposed to be the ruler of Hell or whatever, in both the Bible and the SMT worlds?)
Although after beating him you're able to wander around the world (with nothing extra to do) and use him as an ally.
You just meet him in the Light version.
I live in Poland, and it is a strongly Catholic country. God forbid you believe in something else! I'm an atheist myself, though I do tend to think about God from time to time, forming a completely abstract image of God. This would mean that I am searching for an answer from within myself, and, as laughable as it may sound, these games help me to see things in a new light. I felt particularly moved by Nocturne with its True Demon ending and the massive build up leading to it, and also with DDS, though I am still digesting the story.
The only thing we can say about God is God.
It's my entry point, and it's fine so far for me. I know how you feel; I wanted to get into SMT for a while, but the decade+ history, numerous games, and various spinoffs made me nervous to even start.
In any case, the Lucifer that I've generally seen protrayed has been based on Milton's character from Paradise Lost which was probably an amalgamation of the Lucifer from Greek mythology, the devil from the bible, and Loki from Norse mythology, with some Shakespearean flair added as garnishing. This character is a very well-developed one, and seems to have become an archetype for the tragic/fallen hero (Kain from FF4, Sephiroth, Darth Vader, any guy who was good then turned bad).
Lucifer/Satan/Devil/Ruler of Hell basically all describe the same entity, but since all we've got to go on is the writing of some people who were "touched by God" as canon there's no serious scientific or standard basis for any of this. It all comes down to the context of the story that he's in.
SMT Lucifer:
Though I've got very limited experience with the main series, so I could be wrong.
(Clocked 99:59, and I bet a good twenty hours of that was me navigating the last dungeon.)
...I don't even remember a demo in MGS3. Huh, maybe I should dig that case out again. Or do you mean that bonus vampire-fighting game? Because I'm pretty sure that's not SMT.
Okay, here's a question for long-term fans. Did any game of the series do the S.Link thing before? I know a lot of them had you acquiring actual party members from enemy parties, but that's not really the same thing.
In the Hebrew Bible, there is no Hell, per se. They do speak of Gehenna (actual name reference: a burning hill of garbage outside of Jerusalem) as a place for the dead that isn't Sheol, which is the underground place that non-sinners go to hang out until Judgement Day (it's not exactly Heaven, though there is a nice area where you can chill with Abraham and his posse).
Gehenna is a place of eternal fire where sinners are punished for a year or so until being spat out into general population in Sheol, having been purified, though some are just zorched forever and destroyed.
As far as I know, there is no evil diety in the original Bible that rules Gehenna... it's just a burning pit and there aren't elaborate tortures or anything. Hell is mostly a Christian invention to scare people. The Jews, who aren't all that big into worrying about the afterlife, characteristically didn't go into a lot of detail on it back in the day.
As far as SMT goes... I don't really know. I'm not an expert, despite being a fan.
Not to my knowledge... before P3, series tradition was making nice with demons so they'd join you/give you items. P3's the first one where actual friendships matter, I think.
I'm with ya there. I had never even heard of the series until I started coming to G&T. Thanks for that, PA forums!
I'm a big fan of religion despite not being religious. It's a good way to understand people, by understanding what they believe in (show me the newspaper, I'd rather read the Opinions page, and see what people believe rather than what they know).
Nocturne is a very interesting meditation on what it means to believe in something, and I love the SMT games for exactly this reason. The last two months of Persona 3 filled me with an immense sense of pride:
I don't think it's laughable that you can use these games as a sounding board for personal reflection. Laudable, actually, is a better term. 8-)
Even the other Personas? How did they work, then? And how did they handle dungeons in those days; were they like P3, or was it more traditional RPG dungeons?
How did Persona 3 do, money-wise? Do you think it was successful enough to affect how later games in the series act, even in the regular SMTs? I mean, I was mostly kidding about that "Thor is disappointed" stuff, but I could see it be a clever design concept. Maybe feature something like P3's Dark Hour, except it shifts to another reality entirely, where the various "demons" live in a semi-normal society you then get to/have to interact with. And I honestly can't imagine a game where "date a succubus" is a goal being a financial failure. I mean, given half the monsters in the series, it's not like the designers haven't considered it.
The first game had first-person dungeons, like Etrian Odyssey and Phantasy Star 1. Painful.
P2 uses isometric view(like Diablo, I guess). The battle system is pretty much identical; you either attack, or communicate.
Persona 1's communication system is vague('Dance/Talk/Bribe/Sing', varies between party members). It can either make a demon angry, scared, happy, or interested, and the different outcomes have different results. The main goal is to either get their spell card(which lets you contribute a spell towards a Persona fusion) or their monster card(which is used towards creating a Persona).
P2's a little different, since you just use a character's specific tactic to talk it out(Maya interviews, Baofu uses blackmail recordings), but for different results, they can be combined(Maya and Ulala ask for the demon's opinion on which of them is a better catch).
They just get angry, happy, or interested in P2. Instead of getting a monster's card, they can either give you spell cards, or Tarots. You don't need specific monster cards to summon Personas in 2; just a lot of a certain Tarot card(or you can take Free cards to the Artist in the Velvet Room to make any kind you want).
So yeah, P1 & 2 are a lot more complicated on the whole, but P3 added more social aspects to it, so it kind of balances out.
Well, considering that Atlus considers Persona their main focus now(they're already working on the fourth game, an anime, and FES got greenlighted in, what, a few months?), I'd say it was a success over there.
As for how it did here, I guess we'll know in a few months. ;-)