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I'm In Your Church, Doubting Your Beliefz
BoomShake
The EngineerColumbia, MDRegistered User regular
The EngineerColumbia, MDRegistered User regular
Man, religion is serious business.
A bit of background first:
I'm 20 years old, born into a Roman Catholic family, and have been confirmed. I attended mass (and pay attention) every sunday before college, and now I go whenever I'm at home, as well as the holy days of obligation. As I grew older, I began to have my doubts and question things, but it wasn't until I went off to college that such feeling really came to the foreground. It was after this Christmas and after a course in Spinozism that I've arrived at the point where I'm really unsure of things, feeling more agnostic than christian; I don't think I fully fit the Christian bit anymore, but don't know if I'm a real agnostic yet. I am by no means closed to either side, just to make that clear, just that I don't agree with some of the teachings and don't feel there's strong enough evidence in either direction to really make an educated decision. My parents were surprisingly cool when I discussed it with them and want me to make my own decisions without any pressure from them.
The topic at hand right now is of attending mass. I don't know whether I should continue to go. Going will help keep me up on religion so as to not lose knowledge of it. The sermons and readings, with the specific religious aspects removed, are still good lessons and reflections on life and one's actions. I probably wouldn't be doing much else with that time anyway. However, I've begun to feel hypocritical there, almost like I'm just going through the motions without any real conviction. I find myself simply analyzing the readings and sermons, questioning the psalms and prayers as I utter them, and leaving not much closer to any answers than when I started. I feel like it's a bit disrespectful doing everything without truly believing.
I'd really like to hear what any others have to say on this, or anything else on the whole doubting religion.
A bit of background first:
I'm 20 years old, born into a Roman Catholic family, and have been confirmed. I attended mass (and pay attention) every sunday before college, and now I go whenever I'm at home, as well as the holy days of obligation. As I grew older, I began to have my doubts and question things, but it wasn't until I went off to college that such feeling really came to the foreground. It was after this Christmas and after a course in Spinozism that I've arrived at the point where I'm really unsure of things, feeling more agnostic than christian; I don't think I fully fit the Christian bit anymore, but don't know if I'm a real agnostic yet. I am by no means closed to either side, just to make that clear, just that I don't agree with some of the teachings and don't feel there's strong enough evidence in either direction to really make an educated decision. My parents were surprisingly cool when I discussed it with them and want me to make my own decisions without any pressure from them.
The topic at hand right now is of attending mass. I don't know whether I should continue to go. Going will help keep me up on religion so as to not lose knowledge of it. The sermons and readings, with the specific religious aspects removed, are still good lessons and reflections on life and one's actions. I probably wouldn't be doing much else with that time anyway. However, I've begun to feel hypocritical there, almost like I'm just going through the motions without any real conviction. I find myself simply analyzing the readings and sermons, questioning the psalms and prayers as I utter them, and leaving not much closer to any answers than when I started. I feel like it's a bit disrespectful doing everything without truly believing.
I'd really like to hear what any others have to say on this, or anything else on the whole doubting religion.
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Since your parents aren't going to make your life miserable if you don't go or anything like that, it really comes down to what you want to do. If you'd rather not go (or would rather do something else instead) then don't, and if you don't mind and don't have anything else you'd rather do then why not?
That said, it's a personal decision and you shouldn't let any one source of criticism or support have too much sway on what's ultimately your belief set.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
I'm definitely going to talk to my priest about it, but I figured I'd get some opinions from the general layperson before speaking to someone who's devoted his whole life to one of the paths.
Edit: I know it boils down to a personal decision, but being an engineer, I have the mindset where I need to hear as much evidence and information as I can before coming to any sort of conclusions of my own. Being that religion isn't something discreet, all I can hope for is advice, other's interpretations of science and scripture, and various opinions to see what really hits close to home for me, as I'm not entirely sure of what I believe myself anymore.
If I'm starting to think I don't like the Olive Garden, I'll still keep going to try different things on the menu and make up my mind. Otherwise, just sitting at home unexposed to it, I might always wonder how I truly feel about the Manicotti Formaggio.
Of course, on the other hand, I could also wander into a Outback and instantly know that I've belonged there all along.
P.S. - Sorry for the terrible metaphor.
My advice to you would to research both sides of the issue. On the Catholic side, do things like talk to your priest, research Thomistic and Augustinian philosophy, read the current teachings of the Church as expressed through people like John Paul II (eg, theology of the body) and Benedict XVI (eg, Deus Caritas Est, Ratzinger's first encyclical). I don't know what you disagree with the Church on (you mentioned Spinoza?), but research the dissenting views as well.
One lesson I've learned is this: nothing is permanent. Both my parents and friends have remarked that most teenagers experiment with drugs, alcohol etc - but when I was a teenager, I experimented with religion. For a long time, I did a lot of searching and could go from digging Judaism to considering myself agnostic in a relatively short amount of time. You are searching for your own beliefs, your own philosophy. If you end up considering yourself agnostic, realize that you will not always be agnostic. If you end up considering yourself as being Catholic still, realize you will not always be Catholic. This is a time of personal discovery for you, and discovering just "what you believe" could take a long time.
And don't be surprised if you find yourself longing for the Mass again.
Oh, and from one person raised in the Church to another...Peace be with you.
I'm probably rather far on the heretical scale catholic wise (yet i'm confirmed) and really my solution is to just not really care about the teachings don't agree with.
I can honestly gain a lot of comfort in my life from going to mass in a purely secular perspective. The routine and seeing people I have seen my whole life is nice. And really, i think comfort is one of the main points of religion.
I can sit in the pews at church and remember being a little kid, fantasizing away about starcraft waiting till I could go back home and for some reason i find this very soothing. However, I can also remember times when I was actually moved by things said and I actually find mass interesting as I have developed a more grown up view of things, looking at everything as symbolic and not really buying into anything in the literal sense (kinda un-catholic)
I would say that it is very "catholic" of you to feel guilty being there without being in full accordance with the perfect catholic mentality, but really, I don't there is any harm in going and being there if you question it or not. I assume that without mass, regardless of your convictions you might feel some sort of void, if not only from missing out on the secular aspects of attending church.
religion is an important part of many people's lives. You just trying to stay open-minded and not hoarding yourself into any one corner is evidence that you're a good person
First of all, it sounds like you took the leap of faith as a baby like most people did and just now realized how big of a leap it is. Questioning faith is normal and should be encouraged. I am not here to convince you were to stand but you should not worry about going to church even though you have your doubts. Go. Most likely a good portion of the devout types have their doubts too, most people do. You are not dealing with judgement by going with doubts on your mind. If anything, you get bonus points for attempting to get what you can out of it, regardless of the state of mind you are in.
I envy people with faith. I have decided that I cannot believe in God and that I can not say that God does not exist; no one can prove it to me either way. It all comes down to a leap of faith and if I were to make that leap I would not be able to deal with the fact I would be living a lie. I just can't function on faith. Most days I wish I could and sometimes I have even tried. In the end though, I don't really believe.
For you I would suggest going to mass and talking to your priest. Just sit down and have a good discussion with him. Take time to talk to others too if you can. I would also suggest reading arguments for Christianity as well as critisisms of it. This is your faith you are talking about and reading won't give you faith but it will give you perspective.
Also, there is nothing wrong with taking an agnostic point of view for a while. You can still go to mass. You don't have to feel guilty. You are just deciding which path is right for you and that can take time.
Hope that helps.
There's more to organised religion than believing what others tell you, if you like the church or the people attending I don't see a reason why you should stop attending.
My point is that if you continue to analyze and look for fact in the bible, or try to sort some of the inconsistencies out, you're not going to figure it out -- the bible is only one document. It's not all history, or all manual, or even all life guide, and you can't just refer to it; you need to refer to your own belief in the supernatural, and be OK with the idea that you won't accept some things, or you think they're interpreted wrong.
That's if you want to reconcile with your religion. I went to church a few times as a kid, did some churchy things, but I realized (when I was a young teenager) that I was pretty agnostic that whole time, and thought talking to some invisible dude was pretty weird. Now I'm an atheist and outright reject the whole idea. As mentioned above, there's no place for "faith" in my life, other than in my friends and family.
There's no right or wrong answer -- if you want to believe, believe. If you think it's crap, it's crap. It's your decision, and you don't have to make it now, next year, or in the next ten years. You can even change your mind.
However, even with your doubts, you still seem to feel that the mass has something to offer you. So continue to go and take what you value from it. You don't have to feel like a hypocrite if you're not sure that you believe everything. Keep in mind that everyone is welcome at the mass including non-believers. If you feel like you're just going through the motions, you don't have to engage in the specific parts of the mass that make you uncomfortable, but embrace those that you still value.
I second going to your priest and talking with him about your doubts. That's what they're there for.
I also encourage you to study Catholicism. Read the Catechism. Research the history of the Church. Get your hands on a study Bible that includes the Apocrypha. A deeper understanding about your beliefs and where they come from is always good.
It sounds like the part you're most worried about is expressing support for beliefs and practices you're now uncertain of. Don't speak or sing anything that you seriously question in your head. Why not? Because it hurts you. You feel like a liar when you do that, and it isn't good for you.
Whether you're comfortable going is something you're going to have to decide on for yourself, of course. And no one is going to begrudge your attending mass, although some might say receiving communion would be against the rules (most catholics, in my experience, do not follow these rules).
If your intention in going to Church is to keep interest in it, I see nothing wrong with that.
One argument that got me out of religion was the fact that for all my questioning, and all the snappy answers the pastor came up with, if I were born on the other side of the world then those questions would pertain to Islam instead of Protestantism. And the religious figures would be giving similarly snappy answers, only consulting the Quran instead of the NIV. And everyone in the congregation would be just as convicted about their beliefs as the ones in my current church. And some people would probably go so far as to believe that the non-Muslims of the world need to be saved from their false religions.
Religion is a powerful institution, brainwashing the ignorant and collecting shitloads of money from them. There have been a lot of fucked-up things throughout history done in the name of religion, like the Crusades or the Inquisition or suicide bombings or Fox News, so don't let the fact that you've spent a lot of time in the church sway your decision here. But beyond all of that, their bibles still have some fantastic advise for living a good life. And you can meet some good people at these congregations, too. Just remember what is behind all of it.
Dumbass
This is not a thread about why or why not to believe in anything
It's a thread about a guy who isn't sure if he should be attending mass when he can't help but question his beliefs
So let's not turn this into a completely retarded religion debate okay that's why we invented D&D
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
It will also depend on how understanding your RC community/priest are as well. I've seen different people have quite different experiences in this situation - some have ok experiences, supported by friends/family/the parish, another got frozen out and basically became an atheist because of how she was treated in her moment of doubt. I'd hope that they would be understanding in your case and treat you well irregardless (assuming you are not a jerk to them) but sometimes it can be hard to know how they react till you make your doubts known.
Despite this I would still say try a break from Mass for a month then maybe go talk to your priest, that way you will be able to debate from a position of knowledge. You will then know how you've coped with not attending Mass, what bits you miss/don't miss, not being part of the community, how that interacts with your thoughts on theology and all of that. Then when you talk to the priest or whomever else you trust to have such a discussion you will at least have a good understanding of the whole experience and not just the "am I a Christian?" bit.
Probably always been that way.
Eventually I got up the courage to confront my parents about it (separately) and talked to them a bit about it. It went over a lot better than I thought, with them still accepting and loving me as their son, etc., etc. And now I can sleep in on Sundays... or work the morning shift at my job...
Anyway, since you've already discussed this with your parents, I don't really see any reason for you to force yourself to continue to go, if you aren't finding it worthwhile.
If you're having deep philosophical ponderings about your religious beliefs, the weekly sermons aren't going to help you figure things out. One-on-one talks with one of the clergy would be better for that. You can ask them about things you aren't sure about, get their answers, and then if they recommend any readings or quote certain verses or writings, you can check those out.
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I really like Matt_S's post. You're right, I really need to do more research on the religious side. I've gone through the wikipedia articles on the philosophies and texts you mentioned. When I get some time, I'll try to get a copy of the texts, or at least some sort of analysis/interpretation. I also, now that I'm older and more mature, plan on going through the bible again carefully, perhaps noting questions that arise, things I disagree with, etc. Even if it doesn't get me any closer to an answer, at least my understanding of the whole matter will be much deeper.
I'm going to talk to my priest, but I think I'll do at least a bit of the reading and research first so I can have better basis for debate and hopefully a better grasp on exactly where I stand.
I go back to college around the 20th, so I'll have two more weekends of church. Normally when I'm away at college, I don't go to church and don't think much of it. I'm going to try to consider it more, or rather, the lack of it, and see if and how it affects me, whether it feels like something's missing. I'll also be back in contact with atheist, religious, and in-between friends that I can bounce things off of.
I guess this thread is "solved" in the sense that there's not any real solution. It'd be nice to leave it open though for any more that people want to throw out there, especially stories of anyone that is or has gone through a similar transition as I don't personally know too many that have.
If you are looking for some reading to do I recommend getting hold of this book. The book to outline the rise of Christianity and the Church within the context of the Roman Empire. It is interesting because it shows the various points at which important points of doctrine were adopted and why - and almost as interestingly what the alternatives were. It will give you context as to the origins of Christianity and more specifically the Roman Catholic church.
I'm glad my reply helped you! A book that I would recommend is A Shorter Summa by Peter Kreeft. The entire Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas is measured in volumes, whereas this condenses it into about 160 pages. It's printed by Ignatius Press, so it'll give you the Catholic perspective on things.
Remember that you can always contact your philosophy professor from your last course you took and ask him questions in regards to Spinoza and Catholic philosophy. He can more or less be the counterbalance to your priest in this regard and give you more analysis, and maybe help extend your thoughts past Spinoza and into other areas of philosophy (or maybe even outside philosophy itself).
Most of all though, don't fret too much over this. These are questions that people have spent an entire lifetime trying to answer. Just go wherever your mind leads you.
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Satans..... hints.....
TBH you seem a better Catholic then 90% of the people at my parish I've met, these are the "lip service" types who're there in body but not in spirit. Don't EVER feel guilty or hypocritical about questioning your beliefs, especially if you are genuinely concerned about your "faith." How can you know if you truly believe if you're faith isn't tested?
If it turns out that Christianity in general isn't for you, don't feel bad about it at all. You're obviously a good person, and a person who is genuine in their spirituality is no less "devout" then a true-believer in an orthodox religion. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fucking idiot. That "you need to be a Christian (Jew, Muslim, Spaghetti Monster worshipper) or you go to hell!" nonsense isn't the word of any just or loving God I know, so much as it is likely the inserted ramblings of power-mongers trying to keep the flock in check.
Ask yourself, is it possible for a person to emulate Christ's example of treating others the way they should be, without conforming to the orthodoxy? Now ask yourself whom Jesus would rather welcome with open arms- a lip-service type who's been to church every Sunday but couldn't give 2 shits about treating other people right, or someone who's never stepped inside of a church or said a single prayer but treats others with a kindness above and beyond what they should?
I might also recommend picking up a copy of the Tao. There's some good reading in there and meditation kicks ass.
Actually, if you read his question, he left what he wanted to hear about belief pretty open, so Dongpuller's response was just fine.
You hit the nail on the head; this is one of my biggest fears as well as problem with what's taught. Since I'm not sure, and coming from a religion where Hell is a viable option, I'm that much more concerned with making the "right" choice. It goes along with how philosophers, scientists, doctors, and anyone else that has devoted their lives to being good people, helping others, and trying to better society, doing far more than a bunch of the "practicing Christians", aren't supposed to be welcomed into heaven if they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. It just doesn't seem, as you said, that a just and loving God would be so vain that if you don't worship him you don't deserve to be happy in the afterlife, but what if he is? This is why I've been wary to question up until now before the doubt became strong enough to not not acknowledge it; that hellfire and brimstone really does work to an extent.
I'll also add Tao, as well as the other recently mentioned texts, to my ever-growing list of things that need a good reading.
It sounds confrontational, but for me as an atheist it explained a good deal of why we find comfort in religion, and how the lessons learned at most prayers aren't exclusive to faith. If you show respect and don't leap around throwing up "the horns" I think you can still bring a good deal away from the experience.
I still go to Mass every once in a while with my family, like for Christmas and stuff. I have a great respect for Catholicism, even if I don't consider myself one anymore. I used to have the same guilty feeling - like I was intruding on something. Not taking Communion helped me with those feelings. I go up and receive a blessing, but I do not take the Eucharist. I don't know if doing that would make you feel better or not, but for me, it was a symbolic way of saying "Hey, I'm just here as a spectator."
I'm also a Catholic-turned-agnostic. Don't feel bad about going to church. As long as you're getting something out of it and not being disruptive, that's all that matters. (From a theological standpoint, a priest might ask you not to take communion if you don't believe in it, as that's something only Catholics are supposed to take.)
Regarding beliefs vs. hellfire . . . from a Catholic theological point of view, non-Catholics can get into heaven and going to church/being Christian does not guarantee that you will get into heaven. The Pharisees were the religious "church once a week" people back then and Jesus tells them all over the place that they shouldn't be praying just so people will be impressed by them, chastises them for taking tithes from poor widows instead of helping them, complains how they follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law, etc.
Critical fumble! Jesus is unimpressed!
Or this:
Or, again:
I'm an agnostic, like I said, but even from a purely Catholic point of view I don't think God is/would be tossing you into fiery flames for having doubts and honestly seeking for the truth while trying to live a good, morally upright life.
The thing with this quote is, it's saying that if in the end you make the "right" choice everything will be fine and dandy. What if, however, by the time one dies, he's still not sure of God and Jesus? Will that be that, or will there be "overtime" where one can see God and then choose to accept him or reject him? I'm not necessarily asking you directly since you haven't died and found out as far as I know, but just throwing that out there.
I can see your point as the thing is a metaphor and it can be read as two ways (or really a gazillion I mean it's a metaphor).
The first way (which I think you can be reading it) is that the father (the holy father) is asking his sons to go to church a pray for him, the first one says no but manages to find time for it anyway, and the second one gives a lip service yes and goes on his way.
The other way (which I understand it to be) of interpreting it is that the father is infact a preist giving a lecture on how to be a good person (tend your farm) and the first son didn't go to church to hear the message (or fell asleep on the pew), but he did it anyway, because the shit needed to be done. The other son listened intently nodded when he needed to went home and slept on the couch. Obviously he was being a dick. Saying things isn't nearly as important as doing them.
Personally I can't believe in God, I personally have too much doubt that he exists and I really can't buy the reasoning some people give which is "You should go to church just in case." Personally I'm pretty sure if God existed he could see through my bullshit lip service of praying to someone I really don't think exists. I say if there is a god I would far prefer to be judged on my deeds than whether or not I showed up to church once a week.
Satans..... hints.....
If you are going to be a Christian then just be a good person and accept God. According to the Catholic church I was raised in, that is enough. Having personal doubts means nothing if you are willing to act against them in faith.
My opinion on the matter is that if a God would send me to Hell for using the free will that he himself gave me, then I don't want to worship him anyway.
Honestly though; you are going to get different answers from everyone on what you have to do to go to heaven or what specific things you can't do. Having doubts is not a sin. Though as a Catholic, knowing of God and refusing him openly is a sin. So as for doubting having an effect on the outcome, I would not worry about it.
Also, you go to mass for for God, not for the other people there. Whether they are more serious than you are should have no impact on whether you choose to attend or not.
Like I said earlier, it all comes down to a leap of faith. Doubts come and go. It really comes down to what you choose to believe in. If you need proof, then faith won't come easy.
If it helps, I think it's okay to not go if you don't believe. In fact, I think it's better for everyone: yourself, the congregation, everybody.
I mean, let's face it: if you don't believe it, you're just torturing yourself. Give it time, study religion (you can learn much more about religion by studying it actively than you can by going to mass... at best, you'll get only one perspective at a given church itself).
You'll either come back to your old religion, find a new religion, or ditch religion entirely as a result... well, or you could remain agnostic about it. But either way, at least you'll know where you stand and won't have to fake it.
And if it helps as well, I think it would be a very petty God indeed who would fault you for attempting to discern the truth about him. Keep researching and studying on your own time and in your own way, and you'll draw your own conclusions. If there is a God, it'd be only rational that he would want us to do just that kind of searching.
"90% of those of you who have faith will lose it over the course of your university career. The good news is 90% of those people will find it again".
University is a place where you receive information overload and new perspectives that you haven't been exposed to yet. It's normal to re-evaluate your positions on many things, much less religion.
I'd say no one can fault you for having doubts, but as a Christian myself I find it admirable that you hold that part of your life to such importance that you'd continue to go even with doubts. It shows that you're not easily swayed either way, and I think that's a very healthy attitude.
Stick it out, and see where you end up.