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American Primaries: Romney wins Michigan

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  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    zakkiel wrote: »
    I don't get it. How did Clinton get to this point without any charisma whatsoever? Baffling.

    Hatred of Bush, and political power. We are creating political power families.
    Dude, she's hardly my favorite candidate, but you've said that you'd prefer to vote for Cheney over her

    I would. Both are manipulative and secretive while hating the press. But one doesn't help instate a political family system. I'll take that one positive.
    Many people have questioned the reasons why you feel that she would be worse than Bush, and you just bring up the whole assumed hatred of the press and loldynasty.

    Bush got away with what he did by snowballing the press and secrecy, he got elected largely off of a family members past history... ditto for her, neither listens to others. Clinton is rather smart, Bush was rather dumb. But the best Dems (aka Biden) have stated they won't work for her.

    I see this as a disaster, and I'll help push my (currently) swing state against this.

    Watch her debate, out of all the options, she's the only one that will refuse to answer a question and then throw a tantrum when called on it. At least Rummy and Cheney had the brains to dodge it and laugh, rather then get upset.

    These traits will cause a repeat of the past.
    I totally respect your decision to look at both parties with open eyes and try to find a good candidate on both sides rather than voting for straight party lines.

    Thanks.

    But here is thing. To me this mass polarization and continuation is the core problem. The secrecy in government and screwing over the press is the weapon through which it is done. I'm a Democrat, thus why I'm for Obama, he is the wrench to toss into the machine from my party. But out of all the candidates Clinton will keep the cogs going more then any option from either party.... so that is the worst possible at all costs for the direction I want to take. I'll be willing to endure 4-8 more years of anything to stop the process, I'll leave my party to do that, I'll actively work and help people I don't always agree with to do that.

    My priorities are different then yours, and we don't have to share them. But the vast voters for Obama, Paul, hell even Hukabee (who I hate and agree on nothing with but would vote for over Clinton) to help chuck that wrench into the gears.

    I love Obama for many reasons, but the core one is change, the next is honesty. If you want both of those, voting for Clinton is the worst possible decision you can make.
    I have no negative feelings towards the Clintons. They're bullshitters, but they do that because they believe it's what it takes to win.

    So you're saying you're OK with people being bold faced liars, great.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Obama was relying alot on independents. Maybe they all thought he had it in the bag and went and voted for McCain instead

    nexuscrawler on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Tarranon wrote: »
    Can someone sticky a Hillary really isn't that bad post with explanation or something. I feel like it would be easier to just direct people to it.

    Her policies aren't that bad. But the way she campaigns and adopts the message of the day (change in this case) and uses dirty tricks (the Gordon Brown thing in particular drove me nuts) to chop her opponents down and co-opt their support is nauseating.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Lawndart wrote: »
    KungFu wrote: »
    What is Hillary's so-called experienced besides being a senator? Being first-lady really isn't job experience.

    During the 1992 campaign and up until the whole "Hillarycare" debacle, the Clintons campaigned pretty heavily behind the concept of a "co-Presidency", and Hillary presented herself as more an adviser than someone who slept next to Bill.

    Of course, once the GOP found big fun happy success time with "Everyone Hates Hillary", that got put on the back burner until her Presidential campaign.

    But his actual advisors have admitted that she wasn't much more than a sounding board. She almost never sat in on matters of state, was never privy to some of the intelligence related things, and wasn't pressing palms or twisting arms on the hill. There is very little applicable during her tenure as first lady that puts her in a better position to live in the White House. Aside from knowing where all the bathrooms are, I suppose.

    moniker on
  • HarrierHarrier The Star Spangled Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Harrier wrote: »
    I'd certainly vote for McCain over Clinton.

    I have so much irrational hatred for her from my Republican childhood. I've tried to overcome it, but I honestly can't. I can't vote for her.

    Surely the fact that you realize that you're being irrational gives you some means of at least not throwing in with the goddamn Republican hawk.
    I know, but... ugh.

    The fact that she's also standing in Obama's way is not helping to endear me to her, either. I'm not a Democrat; I feel no extreme loyalty to the party, nor an absolute responsibility to vote for the candidate they ultimately nominate.

    I'm happier with more Democrats than Republicans this election year, but Hillary leaves me cold and dead inside. Additionally, I bear McCain no ill will. I certainly think he'd be competent on foreign policy, however hawkish, which would be enough for me. I could trust him, for example, not to be stupid enough to attack Iran when we're committed in Iraq.

    I don't want a return to the kind of tone the Clintons seem to bring to the Washington policy game, and I'll vote for McCain to prevent that. I'll also vote for Bloomberg should the option present itself.

    There's also the fact that I think having Clinton atop the Democratic ticket wouldn't bring them as strong a gain in Congress as they'd get with Obama. Coupled with the extreme animosity many Republicans feel toward Clinton, and I think we could get gridlock all over again.

    Harrier on
    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    moniker wrote: »
    Lawndart wrote: »
    KungFu wrote: »
    What is Hillary's so-called experienced besides being a senator? Being first-lady really isn't job experience.

    During the 1992 campaign and up until the whole "Hillarycare" debacle, the Clintons campaigned pretty heavily behind the concept of a "co-Presidency", and Hillary presented herself as more an adviser than someone who slept next to Bill.

    Of course, once the GOP found big fun happy success time with "Everyone Hates Hillary", that got put on the back burner until her Presidential campaign.

    But his actual advisors have admitted that she wasn't much more than a sounding board. She almost never sat in on matters of state, was never privy to some of the intelligence related things, and wasn't pressing palms or twisting arms on the hill. There is very little applicable during her tenure as first lady that puts her in a better position to live in the White House. Aside from knowing where all the bathrooms are, I suppose.

    Only the one with toilets. I'm sure the urinal/trough-only affairs are still a mystery to her.

    shryke on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    zakkiel wrote: »
    Dude, she's hardly my favorite candidate, but you've said that you'd prefer to vote for Cheney over her
    I would. Both are manipulative and secretive while hating the press. But one doesn't help instate a political family system. I'll take that one positive.

    How does Hillary go about "instating a political family system"? Do you think she's going to push for congress to vote on a bill favoring family members?

    Loren Michael on
    a7iea7nzewtq.jpg
  • Matt_SMatt_S Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Tarranon wrote: »
    Can someone sticky a Hillary really isn't that bad post with explanation or something. I feel like it would be easier to just direct people to it.

    No kidding. There are some things about her I don't like, and I certainly favor Obama instead of her, but she's not this festering she-devil that the Republicans have painted her as. Overall, her policies aren't so bad.

    Stuff can be found at her web site. I definately prefer Obama, but I won't be moving to Canada if she wins in November.

    Matt_S on
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Tarranon wrote: »
    Can someone sticky a Hillary really isn't that bad post with explanation or something. I feel like it would be easier to just direct people to it.

    The thing is, I don't think anything in her policy or person is bad from what I know of it.

    I just think that there is such a mountain of surplus Anti-Clinton bullshit on this planet that she can't possibly overcome in the General. The Republicans have the music written and ready to pull out of storage, and the press already know all the steps. And my blood pressure can't take a year of The Outlaw Shrillary Clinton and The Murder of Vince Foster

    So here's hoping Nevada and South Carolina take a different view.

    Senjutsu on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    moniker wrote: »
    Lawndart wrote: »
    KungFu wrote: »
    What is Hillary's so-called experienced besides being a senator? Being first-lady really isn't job experience.

    During the 1992 campaign and up until the whole "Hillarycare" debacle, the Clintons campaigned pretty heavily behind the concept of a "co-Presidency", and Hillary presented herself as more an adviser than someone who slept next to Bill.

    Of course, once the GOP found big fun happy success time with "Everyone Hates Hillary", that got put on the back burner until her Presidential campaign.

    But his actual advisors have admitted that she wasn't much more than a sounding board. She almost never sat in on matters of state, was never privy to some of the intelligence related things, and wasn't pressing palms or twisting arms on the hill. There is very little applicable during her tenure as first lady that puts her in a better position to live in the White House. Aside from knowing where all the bathrooms are, I suppose.

    Oh, I don't buy her "I have the experience to get things done" spiel, but I don't write off her entire time in the White House as just not blowing Bill Clinton enough.

    Of course, Clinton's now apparently kicked the "experience" mantra off the bus in favor of "change", so it may not matter after all.

    Lawndart on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Harrier wrote: »
    I'm happier with more Democrats than Republicans this election year, but Hillary leaves me cold and dead inside. Additionally, I bear McCain no ill will. I certainly think he'd be competent on foreign policy, however hawkish, which would be enough for me. I could trust him, for example, not to be stupid enough to attack Iran when we're committed in Iraq.

    100 years in Iraq is competent now?

    What is actually wrong with Hillary?

    Loren Michael on
    a7iea7nzewtq.jpg
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Harrier wrote: »
    I'm happier with more Democrats than Republicans this election year, but Hillary leaves me cold and dead inside. Additionally, I bear McCain no ill will. I certainly think he'd be competent on foreign policy, however hawkish, which would be enough for me. I could trust him, for example, not to be stupid enough to attack Iran when we're committed in Iraq.
    McCain wrote:
    Bomb, bomb, bomb,
    bomb, bomb, Iran

    moniker on
  • HarrierHarrier The Star Spangled Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Regardless of how I feel about Clinton, though, the nomination process isn't over yet. So how does Obama come back from this?

    I think he ought to start rolling out some more specific policy talk. That may be what turned some New Hampshire voters off of him and on to Clinton; he hasn't been terribly specific on the stump, and he may need more details now that there's more scrutiny on him.

    Also, maybe he needs to take more questions, too.

    Basically, I think he needs to start substantiating some of his ideas.

    Harrier on
    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Thanks.

    But here is thing. To me this mass polarization and continuation is the core problem. The secrecy in government and screwing over the press is the weapon through which it is done. I'm a Democrat, thus why I'm for Obama, he is the wrench to toss into the machine from my party. But out of all the candidates Clinton will keep the cogs going more then any option from either party.... so that is the worst possible at all costs for the direction I want to take. I'll be willing to endure 4-8 more years of anything to stop the process, I'll leave my party to do that, I'll actively work and help people I don't always agree with to do that.

    My priorities are different then yours, and we don't have to share them. But the vast voters for Obama, Paul, hell even Hukabee (who I hate and agree on nothing with but would vote for over Clinton) to help chuck that wrench into the gears.

    I love Obama for many reasons, but the core one is change, the next is honesty. If you want both of those, voting for Clinton is the worst possible decision you can make.
    I am confused as to how a vote for McCain/Huckabee is chucking a wrench into the gears of the sectarian political machine.

    Frankly, I wonder if you've just bought into Obama's bullshit way too much. And yes, Obama also bullshits.

    Qingu on
  • MisanthropicMisanthropic Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    It seems Clinton has the Democrat machine working for her in full force - money, volunteers, endorsements. Whereas Obama seems to have more grassroots support from more varied (read: less typically political) sources.

    But seriously NH, you let me down.

    Misanthropic on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Lawndart wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Lawndart wrote: »
    KungFu wrote: »
    What is Hillary's so-called experienced besides being a senator? Being first-lady really isn't job experience.

    During the 1992 campaign and up until the whole "Hillarycare" debacle, the Clintons campaigned pretty heavily behind the concept of a "co-Presidency", and Hillary presented herself as more an adviser than someone who slept next to Bill.

    Of course, once the GOP found big fun happy success time with "Everyone Hates Hillary", that got put on the back burner until her Presidential campaign.

    But his actual advisors have admitted that she wasn't much more than a sounding board. She almost never sat in on matters of state, was never privy to some of the intelligence related things, and wasn't pressing palms or twisting arms on the hill. There is very little applicable during her tenure as first lady that puts her in a better position to live in the White House. Aside from knowing where all the bathrooms are, I suppose.

    Oh, I don't buy her "I have the experience to get things done" spiel, but I don't write off her entire time in the White House as just not blowing Bill Clinton enough.

    She was a sounding board. She may have helped tweak some of the policies, but she didn't come up with any of it (aside from the healthcare fiasco) from wholecloth or in conjunction with Bill, which is what she's trying to play it up as. I wouldn't really paint Biden's wife as the perfect Senatorial candidate because Joe's a master of the Senate and she's bright.

    moniker on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    From a guy I know who was doing canvassing in NH today, the whole "Independents thought Obama had it won, so they voted McCain instead" thing seems to be very true.

    shryke on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.

    In any case, we shouldn't be surprised at New Hampshire. We should count ourselves lucky that Ron Paul didn't win there; at least they performed better than expected on that front.

    There are other states, other opportunities, but I think Obama was awesome while he lasted, which won't be much longer.

    Thanatos on
  • NisslNissl Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Harrier wrote:
    Basically, I think he needs to start substantiating some of his ideas.

    Yep. Luckily, word is that his campaign was already beginning to assemble those speeches anyway. All of the detail is there on his website and in interviews you can find online, but he's so charismatic that some older voters may be tagging him as all style and no substance.

    Trying further to get inside the heads of older people, I wonder what the last 5 days would have looked like to someone who just watched the debate and the evening news.

    Nissl on
    360: Purkinje
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    shryke wrote: »
    From a guy I know who was doing canvassing in NH today, the whole "Independents thought Obama had it won, so they voted McCain instead" thing seems to be very true.
    Well, the media spent all day talking about how Hillary was "hoping for a close second," so, as usual, this is probably their fault.

    Thanatos on
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    MSM is so fucking retarded. This is their fault many times over with their stupid fucking narratives. SHUT THE FUCK UP, ANDREA MITCHELL!

    Hoz on
  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I'll also vote for Bloomberg should the option present itself.

    I don't think he will, but he's the only possible option not to make me turn red should Clinton get nominated.
    I just think that there is such a mountain of surplus Anti-Clinton bullshit on this planet that she can't possibly overcome in the General.

    Most of the people I know who I've talked into voting against her regardless the option, also loved Bill, hell I love Bill.

    She's the problem, not him.

    waterlogged on
    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    jaserella wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Fuck.

    Well, losing within 2 points isn't that terrible of a hit. Especially considering that she inherited a machine from Billy boy that Obama had to build from the ground up. Depending on how this gets framed it will either be a levelling factor or she may well become the 'comeback gal.' That better not happen though. What the fuck, Shinto?

    She was polling @ -8%, and won by +2%, that is a real comeback.

    According to CNN a large portion of the independents decided today who to vote for so any polls before today would have missed a pretty big group.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.

    Insane Tax Plan Huckabee?

    Insane Religious Beliefs Huckabee?

    Insane Homophobe Huckabee?

    A uniter?

    Is there, like, a Ray Huckabee running that I haven't heard about?

    Senjutsu on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Nissl wrote: »
    Harrier wrote:
    Basically, I think he needs to start substantiating some of his ideas.

    Yep. Luckily, word is that his campaign was already beginning to assemble those speeches anyway. All of the detail is there on his website and in interviews you can find online, but he's so charismatic that some older voters may be tagging him as all style and no substance.

    Trying further to get inside the heads of older people, I wonder what the last 5 days would have looked like to someone who just watched the debate and the evening news.

    What, did Brian Williams talk about her pro-tapioca agenda?

    moniker on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2008
    I'm still going to predict a Huckabee win overall. He's going to devour any state with a strong fundie presence, which is pretty much the entire south and the midwest.

    Also, screw you, New Hampshire.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Matt_SMatt_S Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    What is exactly wrong with Hillary?

    I don't think she's going to be as electable as Obama in the general elections (of course, that depends on who the Republicans pick), but besides that...?

    Matt_S on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2008
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.

    Insane Huckabee?

    Is there, like, a Ray Huckabee running that I haven't heard about?

    Fix'd for brevity.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.

    Insane Tax Plan Huckabee?

    Insane Religious Beliefs Huckabee?

    Insane Homophobe Huckabee?

    A uniter?

    Is there, like, a Ray Huckabee running that I haven't heard about?

    You missed that part. Not the country, Republicans.

    moniker on
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Matt_S wrote: »
    What is exactly wrong with Hillary?

    I don't think she's going to be as electable as Obama in the general elections (of course, that depends on who the Republicans pick), but besides that...?

    Poor Electability is a pretty big problem in and of itself.

    Senjutsu on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.
    Insane Tax Plan Huckabee?

    Insane Religious Beliefs Huckabee?

    Insane Homophobe Huckabee?

    A uniter?

    Is there, like, a Ray Huckabee running that I haven't heard about?
    His tax plan is pretty popular, and with a popular president talking it up, will probably pass without a problem. This country is full of people with insane religious beliefs and homophobes; it's just that not many of them are pro-health, pro-environment, and pro-social justice.

    Thanatos on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Matt_S wrote: »
    What is exactly wrong with Hillary?

    I don't think she's going to be as electable as Obama in the general elections (of course, that depends on who the Republicans pick), but besides that...?
    She'd basically be 4-8 more years of George W. Bush as far as executive powers, treatment of the media, and treatment of the public goes. Her policies would be much more competent, but it'd be 4-8 more years of the 50%+1 strategy of governance.

    Thanatos on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2008
    Matt_S wrote: »
    What is exactly wrong with Hillary?

    I don't think she's going to be as electable as Obama in the general elections (of course, that depends on who the Republicans pick), but besides that...?

    Me, I think she's spent so long cynically running her political career based on polls and popularity contests that she's going to forget any actual ideology she may have once had and govern without any shred of higher purpose. Which won't make her a bad president, but it also won't allow her to accomplish anything of note. She'll be her husband with tits.

    Also, I think she'll happily inherit the tendency towards executive power grab. Also, she gives me a bad case of the oogies.

    ElJeffe on
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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm still going to predict a Huckabee win overall. He's going to devour any state with a strong fundie presence, which is pretty much the entire south and the midwest.
    Not really. I've talked to people here who were like, "You know, Huckabee sounds okay," and a five minute conversation later they were like "Man, fuck that douche." And I am smack dab in the center of Jesusland. Believe it or not, having God on your side is not, in and of itself, enough.

    Once people start running an attack ad or two his appeal will drop.

    Salvation122 on
  • KungFuKungFu Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Anyone got a link to the numbers and how it came out? How did Guiliani and Paul do in NH? How close was it between Hillary and Obama?

    KungFu on
    Theft 4 Bread
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    moniker wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Huckabee is actually way more of a potential uniter than any of the other Republican candidates, I think.

    Insane Tax Plan Huckabee?

    Insane Religious Beliefs Huckabee?

    Insane Homophobe Huckabee?

    A uniter?

    Is there, like, a Ray Huckabee running that I haven't heard about?

    You missed that part. Not the country, Republicans.

    That doesn't say that the group he is uniting is the Republicans, to me. Merely that Than is asserting that he can unite more of something than the other Republican Candidates.

    Regardless, given the disaffected Fiscal Conservatives who aren't hot on the whole United Church of America concept, and Huckabee's fiscal liberalness and fundie whackiness, I don't see him uniting the party any more than I see him uniting the country.

    Unless we're talking united in hatred here.

    Senjutsu on
  • jaserellajaserella Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Kagera wrote: »
    jaserella wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Fuck.

    Well, losing within 2 points isn't that terrible of a hit. Especially considering that she inherited a machine from Billy boy that Obama had to build from the ground up. Depending on how this gets framed it will either be a levelling factor or she may well become the 'comeback gal.' That better not happen though. What the fuck, Shinto?

    She was polling @ -8%, and won by +2%, that is a real comeback.

    According to CNN a large portion of the independents decided today who to vote for so any polls before today would have missed a pretty big group.

    But I don't think unpolled independents swung it for Hillary, it was already registered democrat women.

    jaserella on
    " and then wants us to sing God Bless America! No,No,No!! Not God bless America, G-d damn America. THAT'S IN THE BIBLE" :lol:
    527 heaven
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Who is fairtax popular with? You just mention the sales tax and people who buy things recoil and make terrible noises.

    Loren Michael on
    a7iea7nzewtq.jpg
  • HarrierHarrier The Star Spangled Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Thank you, Thanatos and Jeffe, for articulating my Hillary dislike better than I did.

    Harrier on
    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm still going to predict a Huckabee win overall. He's going to devour any state with a strong fundie presence, which is pretty much the entire south and the midwest.
    Not really. I've talked to people here who were like, "You know, Huckabee sounds okay," and a five minute conversation later they were like "Man, fuck that douche." And I am smack dab in the center of Jesusland. Believe it or not, having God on your side is not, in and of itself, enough.

    Once people start running an attack ad or two his appeal will drop.

    I like to think that's the case, but then I recall shit like the 1-2-3 forums and how Bush can do no wrong because he talks directly to God. Maybe you're just only talking to sane people.

    ElJeffe on
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