The thing that rubs me the wrong way, is this means there's going to be a bajillion base classes. Oh they did that last edition, too? Well, at least this means that in order to pick silly powers you have to lose something for it...although, what does this mean for retraining?
Do you think if you pick a multiclass feat retraining doesn't care about it and you get a whole new feat? Or do you think they made it "lock you in" to that class and you merely choose a different power.
Also, if the multiclass power doesn't really ever update, it'll suck by the time you get halfway through your tier, right? Questions, questions.
I think you just get 1 multiclass power per feat you take and if you retrain that feat you lose that power.
I would hope I could retrain it into a higher level power from the class I multi'd into.
I would hope I could retrain it into a higher level power from the class I multi'd into.
If I can't, well fuck multiclassing.
Don't write off 1st level powers so quickly. We have evidence that at least some of them are to be used in the early to mid twenties as far as levels go.
This isn't <4, where power levels moved upwards at a steep curve.
"In the deepest recesses of the Indonesian rainforest there exists a type of Eucalyptus that carries on it a sap that repels the native insects. Although the tree is native to Australia and naturally a support type, it has picked up a defender feat that allows it to shift hostile insects as an at will minor action."
Being able to shove someone one space is going to be much more powerful at later levels when you have shit like acid pools more often.
Does someone stop being an ally right before or right after you use a power to shift them off the edge of a cliff? I can see it working either way, especially if they trust you enough to obey an instruction to move without looking where they're going.
Being able to shove someone one space is going to be much more powerful at later levels when you have shit like acid pools more often.
Does someone stop being an ally right before or right after you use a power to shift them off the edge of a cliff? I can see it working either way, especially if they trust you enough to obey an instruction to move without looking where they're going.
I'd say right after since it seems like the division is whether or not the target is willing to be effected by your ability/spell/whatever. They'd have no way of knowing that the effect would be detrimental to them until it had already taken effect, unless they pass a spellcraft check or otherwise knew what you were casting.
You know, I really did try to blow up that picture to see all the abilities but my photoshop couldn't sharpen the lines enough to make out anything more than a few damage ranges and such. Oddly, when I copied the picture it would only paste in B&W so that may have obscured some of the detail a bit.
I bet on CSI they could analyze the handwriting from the picture and tell you not only who wrote it but how they were feeling at the time.
The blue semen light would probably suffice for that.
/rimshot
I suppose you guys could be right about lower level powers still being worthwhile. I guess the only class that is really going to have scads of powers off the bat is the wizard. I doubt that it'll have too many more than the others, though. I was just worried that they'd fall out of sync since you'd probably gain better ones in your line of work. I guess it depends on the type of powers that they let you choose from.
I frequently recall being jealous of the specials available to PrCs, and wishing that I could get, say, just one of the Acrobat's abilities since I met 80% of the requirements. If all those special rules etc. became individual feats and encounter powers available to anyone with the necessary prerequisites (without class necessarily being a major factor), that really means multi-classing takes on a whole new level (no pun intended)
Man, power cards being included with the character sheets is really cool. I think I might actually buy it this time. Depends on if there is a free power card generator by July. Now I have something to do with some of my thousands of card sleeves. I used to play a lot of Magic, and Pokemon, and L5R, and Star Wars, and Raw Deal, and Warlord, and 40k, and Warcry, and UFS.
I have a lot of cards is what I am saying.
Clarification: Yes, I know spell cards/etc have been around for a while. However the widespread use / expectation of a person having them is just something that doesn't scream "awesome!" to me, but caters to the pessimistic view of mine that says 4E is just World of Warcraft: The Gathering.
Not a feature I like.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Aww come on now, next year when Wotc releases their special power card packs with foil and everything you'll be happy. I'm sure a rare foil power will be going for $50 on ebay. No proxies allowed in official games!
Aww come on now, next year when Wotc releases their special power card packs with foil and everything you'll be happy. I'm sure a rare foil power will be going for $50 on ebay. No proxies allowed in official games!
I could totally see them selling packs of powers as a "Paragon(ical?) Booster" and the like, but I don't think they'd be randomized/have rares or contain foils
I think cards are kind of a neat idea. Not something I'd expect in D&D (despite their limited existance before) but if I heard about it being in some brand new RPG I'd probably support it.
I'm finding that more and more with 4e I'm treating it as something quite different from previous editions, which to me is definitely a good thing.
All this means is that I will have some lovely way to display said information instead of hand-jamming everything onto notecards (which I have done in the past for most things pertinent to my character, like grappling rules.)
I really like the direction they're taking 4e. It seems like they've really ironed out what they really need for ths system as a whole, and I am pleased.
"In the deepest recesses of the Indonesian rainforest there exists a type of Eucalyptus that carries on it a sap that repels the native insects. Although the tree is native to Australia and naturally a support type, it has picked up a defender feat that allows it to shift hostile insects as an at will minor action."
Cards are good for the new player (or the lazy vet :P) who doesn't want to have to flip through twenty books to find out what something does. Considering they will be completely optional, just like the spell cards of 2nd Ed, I don't think there is really any room to complain here.
Now, if they didn't print the powers in the rulebooks and instead forced you to buy the cards to get those rules (or if they had powers you could only find in the card sets, as rare foils or whatever), then know that I would be the first to reach for torch and pitchfork. Same thing if they distribute the power cards in randomized boosters. Seriously, fuck that nonsense. If they want me to buy the power cards, I had better damn well get the whole set in one pack.
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
Cards are good for the new player (or the lazy vet :P) who doesn't want to have to flip through twenty books to find out what something does. Considering they will be completely optional, just like the spell cards of 2nd Ed, I don't think there is really any room to complain here.
Now, if they didn't print the powers in the rulebooks and instead forced you to buy the cards to get those rules (or if they had powers you could only find in the card sets, as rare foils or whatever), then know that I would be the first to reach for torch and pitchfork. Same thing if they distribute the power cards in randomized boosters. Seriously, fuck that nonsense. If they want me to buy the power cards, I had better damn well get the whole set in one pack.
This is EXACTLY my feelings on the issue.
I guess I can see RPGA type events using power cards where you get access to some non-printed powers for RPGA events or somesuch, but anything that says "If you didn't spend money over here and/or get stupidly lucky, your character will not be able to take this power"
I guess I can see RPGA type events using power cards where you get access to some non-printed powers for RPGA events or somesuch, but anything that says "If you didn't spend money over here and/or get stupidly lucky, your character will not be able to take this power"
So of limited interest but I'd heard that Dungeon and Dragon were both going to be created by R&D and assumed usable for RPGA stuff. I don't know about you but that screams "Clusterfuck" of the highest order to me.
I guess I can see RPGA type events using power cards where you get access to some non-printed powers for RPGA events or somesuch, but anything that says "If you didn't spend money over here and/or get stupidly lucky, your character will not be able to take this power"
So of limited interest but I'd heard that Dungeon and Dragon were both going to be created by R&D and assumed usable for RPGA stuff. I don't know about you but that screams "Clusterfuck" of the highest order to me.
No, that's how it always has been. WotC designs stuff, which is "assumed to be RPGA compatible", then RPGA house-rules the crap out of it. Essentially, RPGA has always held the stance of, "You can use anything WotC publishes! Except for anything on this handy list I typed up. Let me read it to you now."
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
It's funny because a lot of things people are accusing D&D of becoming (loot and combat driven, no story, stupid randomized packs of things to use them in the game, no RP, etc.) RPGA HAS BEEN THAT FOR YEARS.
RPGA has essentially been the lowest tech MMORPG. It will continue to be such.
It's funny because a lot of things people are accusing D&D of becoming (loot and combat driven, no story, stupid randomized packs of things to use them in the game, no RP, etc.) RPGA HAS BEEN THAT FOR YEARS.
RPGA has essentially been the lowest tech MMORPG. It will continue to be such.
Honestly, most of these (especially the focus on miniatures, combat / lewt driven gameplay etc...) were there in the beginning and were sort of phased out during the Dark Ages of 2nd edition. Huzah for their comeback because I really thought 2nd ed was the low point for D&D. No wonder it drove TSR into the ground.
Now, if they didn't print the powers in the rulebooks and instead forced you to buy the cards to get those rules (or if they had powers you could only find in the card sets, as rare foils or whatever), then know that I would be the first to reach for torch and pitchfork. Same thing if they distribute the power cards in randomized boosters. Seriously, fuck that nonsense. If they want me to buy the power cards, I had better damn well get the whole set in one pack.
I'm hoping for like, a "Starter Deck" for each class, with a copy of all the powers.
Sure, it would get complicated with like, multiclassing and stuff, but at seventy to eighty powers per class this makes sense to me, and would look damn nice on the tabletop.
It's funny because a lot of things people are accusing D&D of becoming (loot and combat driven, no story, stupid randomized packs of things to use them in the game, no RP, etc.) RPGA HAS BEEN THAT FOR YEARS.
RPGA has essentially been the lowest tech MMORPG. It will continue to be such.
I'm one of those who worries that D&D is going that way, but I don't know anywhere as much about 4e as you, Pony.
On the Pony question train (or anybody really), what'd you use for the 4e games you ran? Our normal game for tonight got canceled so I'm thinking of running something with the leaked 4th rules so far. Grabbing the expo characters and right now I'm looking at the Oakhurst adventure thrown together over at enworld. If you have any suggestions I'd be happy to hear them.
Alright, for one, that Oakhurst adventure is poorly designed and does not take into account the changes of 4e. It's basically a 3.5-style adventure in 4e clothing.
I used a custom adventure of my own creation, which I will tidy up and upload for you. I used the sample characters that are available on the net, and some of the sample monsters too.
With regards to fears that 4e is going to turn D&D into basically a MMO-lite... don't worry about it.
Seriously. You don't need the randomized miniatures packs to play, right? So the fact that they sell them doesn't really affect your game. If they start selling random decks and boosters of power cards that you can't get in the books? Again, who cares! All the crunch will be available on the Rules Database anyway, and if it's not... were you really going to use them? I doubt it.
Just because the material exists, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Some fans of D&D, especially the younger generations, love the "gotta catch 'em all!" mentality and stuff like randomized miniature packs or the RPGA really appeals to them. That's not for everyone, nor does it need to be.
A lot of complaints I'm seeing online is that "wah wah wah, 4e is all about combat"
When has Dungeons & Dragons not been about opening the dungeon door and putting armored foot to monster ass? What game have you been playing?
Because let me tell you something, if intense political intrigue where one rarely, if ever, draws a sword is what you are after, D&D is not your game and it never has been.
If you've been playing it that way, that's fine, but really you've been using a monster truck to drive to work, so to speak. Sure, it'll do that, I guess, but that's not what it's for.
A lot of what I'm seeing online is over-reaction and interpretation based on snippets of info and interpretations of that info.
I remember when they made it clear that monsters weren't using creature-type based HD anymore, and had special monster classes (artillery, soldier, etc.) for them.
Oh, the crying and gnashing of teeth! "B-but versimilitude! Everything should use the same rules! What if I want to play a minotaur! I can't play minotaurs?!"
Calm down, man. Nobody's telling you that you can't play a Minotaur, or a Gnoll, or a Hobgoblin. The system's just been redesigned so that the monsters are not nearly as complicated as the player characters because they don't need to be.
That's an example of a really positive change to the game the fans online completely lost their minds over.
Another one? DDI.
So much bitching. So much usless bitching over this. DDI is just a tool. It's handy, I intend to use it, but really it's no different than say OpenRPG or MapTool or the dozen other programs just like it. Yes, it's got a monthly fee, but for that monthly fee you also get what is essentially half-price Dungeon and Dragon magazine subscriptions, and access to the Rules Database. Pretty sweet deal for only $10-$15 a month, I'd say!
But oh, the bitching! "Abloo abloo abloo, I don't want a laptop at my gaming table! I shouldn't need a computer to play D&D!"
You don't, jack-ass, just like you don't need miniatures either. But they are part of the game and it is assumed you have them, and if you don't like that, then what the hell have you been playing for the past decade?
I don't use miniatures. Never have. Not about to start. The 4e game I ran? Didn't use them there either, even though 4e, with all it's sliding squares back and tactical positioning, incorporates miniatures more than 3.5 did.
But we don't need them to play. I'll probably just plop a pad of graph paper into the center of the table in future games, and record tactical positions there if it gets confusing.
Which, by the way, it tends not to.
Every single thing about 4e is better than 3.5.
I challenge you to find one thing about 3.5 that was really positive that 4e lacks.
Something that actually has to do with the system itself, rather than "I already own the 3.5 books" or "I know 3.5 like the back of my hand".
That's just experience and materials pre-existing. Has nothing to do with the system. By that argument, 1st Edition is the best system, which is retarded.
So really, if anyone is that fussed up about 4e, give me an example of something that really concerns you about the game, or something about 3.5 you really love that's missing from the new game.
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t fadingattheedges: Excellent Johnny Carson call back.
I would hope I could retrain it into a higher level power from the class I multi'd into.
If I can't, well fuck multiclassing.
This isn't <4, where power levels moved upwards at a steep curve.
Stupid squiggly pixxels.
Does someone stop being an ally right before or right after you use a power to shift them off the edge of a cliff? I can see it working either way, especially if they trust you enough to obey an instruction to move without looking where they're going.
I'd say right after since it seems like the division is whether or not the target is willing to be effected by your ability/spell/whatever. They'd have no way of knowing that the effect would be detrimental to them until it had already taken effect, unless they pass a spellcraft check or otherwise knew what you were casting.
You know, I really did try to blow up that picture to see all the abilities but my photoshop couldn't sharpen the lines enough to make out anything more than a few damage ranges and such. Oddly, when I copied the picture it would only paste in B&W so that may have obscured some of the detail a bit.
/rimshot
I suppose you guys could be right about lower level powers still being worthwhile. I guess the only class that is really going to have scads of powers off the bat is the wizard. I doubt that it'll have too many more than the others, though. I was just worried that they'd fall out of sync since you'd probably gain better ones in your line of work. I guess it depends on the type of powers that they let you choose from.
I tell you one thing, it certainly wouldn't be picking up any vaginal fluid on anywhere near there.
I have a lot of cards is what I am saying.
Clarification: Yes, I know spell cards/etc have been around for a while. However the widespread use / expectation of a person having them is just something that doesn't scream "awesome!" to me, but caters to the pessimistic view of mine that says 4E is just World of Warcraft: The Gathering.
Not a feature I like.
Aww come on now, next year when Wotc releases their special power card packs with foil and everything you'll be happy. I'm sure a rare foil power will be going for $50 on ebay. No proxies allowed in official games!
I could totally see them selling packs of powers as a "Paragon(ical?) Booster" and the like, but I don't think they'd be randomized/have rares or contain foils
I'm finding that more and more with 4e I'm treating it as something quite different from previous editions, which to me is definitely a good thing.
SoogaGames Blog
I really like the direction they're taking 4e. It seems like they've really ironed out what they really need for ths system as a whole, and I am pleased.
This made me laugh quite hard.
See.
Now, if they didn't print the powers in the rulebooks and instead forced you to buy the cards to get those rules (or if they had powers you could only find in the card sets, as rare foils or whatever), then know that I would be the first to reach for torch and pitchfork. Same thing if they distribute the power cards in randomized boosters. Seriously, fuck that nonsense. If they want me to buy the power cards, I had better damn well get the whole set in one pack.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
This is EXACTLY my feelings on the issue.
I guess I can see RPGA type events using power cards where you get access to some non-printed powers for RPGA events or somesuch, but anything that says "If you didn't spend money over here and/or get stupidly lucky, your character will not be able to take this power"
No, that's how it always has been. WotC designs stuff, which is "assumed to be RPGA compatible", then RPGA house-rules the crap out of it. Essentially, RPGA has always held the stance of, "You can use anything WotC publishes! Except for anything on this handy list I typed up. Let me read it to you now."
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
RPGA has essentially been the lowest tech MMORPG. It will continue to be such.
Honestly, most of these (especially the focus on miniatures, combat / lewt driven gameplay etc...) were there in the beginning and were sort of phased out during the Dark Ages of 2nd edition. Huzah for their comeback because I really thought 2nd ed was the low point for D&D. No wonder it drove TSR into the ground.
I'm hoping for like, a "Starter Deck" for each class, with a copy of all the powers.
Sure, it would get complicated with like, multiclassing and stuff, but at seventy to eighty powers per class this makes sense to me, and would look damn nice on the tabletop.
I'm one of those who worries that D&D is going that way, but I don't know anywhere as much about 4e as you, Pony.
What do you think?
I used a custom adventure of my own creation, which I will tidy up and upload for you. I used the sample characters that are available on the net, and some of the sample monsters too.
With regards to fears that 4e is going to turn D&D into basically a MMO-lite... don't worry about it.
Seriously. You don't need the randomized miniatures packs to play, right? So the fact that they sell them doesn't really affect your game. If they start selling random decks and boosters of power cards that you can't get in the books? Again, who cares! All the crunch will be available on the Rules Database anyway, and if it's not... were you really going to use them? I doubt it.
Just because the material exists, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Some fans of D&D, especially the younger generations, love the "gotta catch 'em all!" mentality and stuff like randomized miniature packs or the RPGA really appeals to them. That's not for everyone, nor does it need to be.
A lot of complaints I'm seeing online is that "wah wah wah, 4e is all about combat"
When has Dungeons & Dragons not been about opening the dungeon door and putting armored foot to monster ass? What game have you been playing?
Because let me tell you something, if intense political intrigue where one rarely, if ever, draws a sword is what you are after, D&D is not your game and it never has been.
If you've been playing it that way, that's fine, but really you've been using a monster truck to drive to work, so to speak. Sure, it'll do that, I guess, but that's not what it's for.
A lot of what I'm seeing online is over-reaction and interpretation based on snippets of info and interpretations of that info.
I remember when they made it clear that monsters weren't using creature-type based HD anymore, and had special monster classes (artillery, soldier, etc.) for them.
Oh, the crying and gnashing of teeth! "B-but versimilitude! Everything should use the same rules! What if I want to play a minotaur! I can't play minotaurs?!"
Calm down, man. Nobody's telling you that you can't play a Minotaur, or a Gnoll, or a Hobgoblin. The system's just been redesigned so that the monsters are not nearly as complicated as the player characters because they don't need to be.
That's an example of a really positive change to the game the fans online completely lost their minds over.
Another one? DDI.
So much bitching. So much usless bitching over this. DDI is just a tool. It's handy, I intend to use it, but really it's no different than say OpenRPG or MapTool or the dozen other programs just like it. Yes, it's got a monthly fee, but for that monthly fee you also get what is essentially half-price Dungeon and Dragon magazine subscriptions, and access to the Rules Database. Pretty sweet deal for only $10-$15 a month, I'd say!
But oh, the bitching! "Abloo abloo abloo, I don't want a laptop at my gaming table! I shouldn't need a computer to play D&D!"
You don't, jack-ass, just like you don't need miniatures either. But they are part of the game and it is assumed you have them, and if you don't like that, then what the hell have you been playing for the past decade?
I don't use miniatures. Never have. Not about to start. The 4e game I ran? Didn't use them there either, even though 4e, with all it's sliding squares back and tactical positioning, incorporates miniatures more than 3.5 did.
But we don't need them to play. I'll probably just plop a pad of graph paper into the center of the table in future games, and record tactical positions there if it gets confusing.
Which, by the way, it tends not to.
Every single thing about 4e is better than 3.5.
I challenge you to find one thing about 3.5 that was really positive that 4e lacks.
Something that actually has to do with the system itself, rather than "I already own the 3.5 books" or "I know 3.5 like the back of my hand".
That's just experience and materials pre-existing. Has nothing to do with the system. By that argument, 1st Edition is the best system, which is retarded.
So really, if anyone is that fussed up about 4e, give me an example of something that really concerns you about the game, or something about 3.5 you really love that's missing from the new game.
Give it a shot.