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City of Berkely Ousts U.S.M.C.

ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
edited February 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
Story: http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_8127493

It's Berkely, so... yeah. :|:zzz:

Zahaladeen on
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Posts

  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2008
    Nice OP.

    Very thoughtful.

    ege02 on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    The joke's on Berkley, 'cause the Marines are protecting their freedoms anyway.

    Malkor on
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  • Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    :roll:

    Rabid_Llama on
    /sig
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  • VaregaVarega Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    From the article, In addition, the council voted to explore enforcing its law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation against the Marines because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    Is this really discrimination? I thought it skirted the issue, therefore could not be used as a policy of discrimination. I'm a little confused if they legally can do this, so if one of the law types on here could clarify, I'd be mighty grateful.

    Varega on
    League of Legends:Varega
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Nice OP.

    Very thoughtful.
    It is thoughtful. I mean, he arranged it so it looks like that smiley is sleeping! Very original and well thought-out. Other smiley-using posters around here could learn a thing or two from that OP.

    Richy on
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  • FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Columbia, SCRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    This thread can be saved, I think.
    BERKELEY — Hey-hey, ho-ho, the Marines in Berkeley have got to go.

    That's the message from the Berkeley City Council, which voted 8-1 to tell the U.S. Marines that its Shattuck Avenue recruiting station "is not welcome in the city, and if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders."

    In addition, the council voted to explore enforcing its law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation against the Marines because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. And it officially encouraged the women's peace group Code Pink to impede the work of the Marines in the city by protesting in front of the station.

    In a separate item, the council voted 8-1 to give Code Pink a designated parking space in front of the recruiting station once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week from noon to 4 p.m.

    So the thread title is not quite right; the city council simply passed a resolution against the USMC recruiting station, but they can't really force them to leave. Seems like a pointless waste of time to me.

    FunkyWaltDogg on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Varega wrote: »
    From the article, In addition, the council voted to explore enforcing its law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation against the Marines because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    Is this really discrimination? I thought it skirted the issue, therefore could not be used as a policy of discrimination. I'm a little confused if they legally can do this, so if one of the law types on here could clarify, I'd be mighty grateful.

    Yes it's discrimination. What would it be if you joined a governmental organization but couldn't tell anyone you were Jewish, or black, or christian. And if you let it slip, or someone finds out... you are immediately shitcanned.

    put this into google:
    military translators fired

    and tell me it isn't blatant discrimination.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Yeah. I get what they're trying to accmoplish, but this seems better for publicity than results. Even if they do get the recruiting station out it does nothing for the underlying problem. I'm sure Bill O'Reily will give them the exposure they deserve.

    Malkor on
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  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Nice OP.

    Very thoughtful.

    Thank you, I am glad you noticed. I almost used a O_o but I feel that may have ruined the aesthetic.

    Zahaladeen on
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    MikeMcSomething on
  • ChurchChurch Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    BERKELEY — Hey-hey, ho-ho, the Marines in Berkeley have got to go.

    That's the message from the Berkeley City Council, which voted 8-1 to tell the U.S. Marines that its Shattuck Avenue recruiting station "is not welcome in the city, and if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders."

    In addition, the council voted to explore enforcing its law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation against the Marines because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. And it officially encouraged the women's peace group Code Pink to impede the work of the Marines in the city by protesting in front of the station.

    In a separate item, the council voted 8-1 to give Code Pink a designated parking space in front of the recruiting station once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week from noon to 4 p.m.

    Yay.

    Church on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Sentry wrote: »
    Yes it's discrimination. What would it be if you joined a governmental organization but couldn't tell anyone you were Jewish, or black, or christian. And if you let it slip, or someone finds out... you are immediately shitcanned.

    put this into google:
    military translators fired

    and tell me it isn't blatant discrimination.
    In fact, you are dishonourably discharged, which is pretty much the worst punishment discharge you can get short of facing a firing squad. It's usually given to deserters, soldiers who attack their fellow soldiers, and so on. So the punishment for being found gay in the army is on par with betraying your country.

    The punishment for being found heterosexual? There isn't one.

    Anyone who says the US Army isn't discriminating against gays is retarded. They are strongly anti-gay, and it's good to see people are finally taking a stand against it.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2008
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    Nice OP.

    Very thoughtful.

    Thank you, I am glad you noticed. I almost used a O_o but I feel that may have ruined the aesthetic.
    The point was that you just gave a link, didn't even offer commentary and left it at that. You might want to at least glance at the rules here next time before you post.

    Satan. on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Malkor wrote: »
    Yeah. I get what they're trying to accmoplish, but this seems better for publicity than results. Even if they do get the recruiting station out it does nothing for the underlying problem. I'm sure Bill O'Reily will give them the exposure they deserve.
    But don't worry, his presentation of the issue will be fair and balanced.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • ChurchChurch Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    You think that, because the city is encouraging people to protest the blatant discrimination on the part of the Marines

    the Marines' rights are being "stepped on"?

    Do you really think that being in a uniform and waving a flag gives you the right to be a bigot?

    Church on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    What rights, in particular?

    Zetetic Elench on
    nemosig.png
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Richy wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Yes it's discrimination. What would it be if you joined a governmental organization but couldn't tell anyone you were Jewish, or black, or christian. And if you let it slip, or someone finds out... you are immediately shitcanned.

    put this into google:
    military translators fired

    and tell me it isn't blatant discrimination.
    In fact, you are dishonourably discharged, which is pretty much the worst punishment discharge you can get short of facing a firing squad. It's usually given to deserters, soldiers who attack their fellow soldiers, and so on. So the punishment for being found gay in the army is on par with betraying your country.

    The punishment for being found heterosexual? There isn't one.

    Anyone who says the US Army isn't discriminating against gays is retarded. They are strongly anti-gay, and it's good to see people are finally taking a stand against it.

    Protesting discrimination within an organization is perfectly valid, but the means they are using to achieve this end seem excessive

    MikeMcSomething on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    Yeah, because the USMC is all about upholding peoples rights.

    Fuck them. If they can't accept everybody reguardless of race, religion, or orientation, then they have no business recruiting in a city that actually values those things.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Church wrote: »
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    You think that, because the city is encouraging people to protest the blatant discrimination on the part of the Marines

    the Marines' rights are being "stepped on"?

    Do you really think that being in a uniform and waving a flag gives you the right to be a bigot?

    Is every Marine a bigot? The USMC is an organization, like Pizza Hut. If Pizza Hut discriminates in their hiring policies, the city of Phoenix won't just enact ordinances that encourage you to boycott their business, and threaten the traffic of surrounding businesses

    MikeMcSomething on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Protesting discrimination within an organization is perfectly valid, but the means they are using to achieve this end seem excessive
    Allowing them to stay "unwelcomed" and giving protesters a once-a-week parking spot for six months with a four-hour-long sound permit hardly seems excessive to me.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • ChurchChurch Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Church wrote: »
    Does anyone else think the USMC's rights as an organization are being stepped on? The city council is encouraging the harassment through official channels.

    Edit: Lets talk about that, instead of the smiley face

    You think that, because the city is encouraging people to protest the blatant discrimination on the part of the Marines

    the Marines' rights are being "stepped on"?

    Do you really think that being in a uniform and waving a flag gives you the right to be a bigot?

    Is every Marine a bigot? The USMC is an organization, like Pizza Hut. If Pizza Hut discriminates in their hiring policies, the city of Phoenix won't just enact ordinances that encourage you to boycott their business, and threaten the traffic of surrounding businesses

    The city isn't encouraging people to harass Marines as individuals, genius.

    Church on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZahaladeenZahaladeen Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Satan. wrote: »
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    Nice OP.

    Very thoughtful.

    Thank you, I am glad you noticed. I almost used a O_o but I feel that may have ruined the aesthetic.
    The point was that you just gave a link, didn't even offer commentary and left it at that. You might want to at least glance at the rules here next time before you post.

    Thank you, but I am well aware. If you look at any of my former OP's I usually ad commentary. But this... I just didn't know what to write so I let the news speak for itself. For me, there was really no way I could be objective on the issue.

    "Denny Crane."

    Zahaladeen on
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Is every Marine a bigot? The USMC is an organization, like Pizza Hut. If Pizza Hut discriminates in their hiring policies, the city of Phoenix won't just enact ordinances that encourage you to boycott their business, and threaten the traffic of surrounding businesses
    Being recruited to become a marine is a little different from eating out at Pizza Hut.

    Zetetic Elench on
    nemosig.png
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    The city could just refuse their liscence when it came up next time. Then they couldn't sell food.

    Malkor on
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  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Is every Marine a bigot? The USMC is an organization, like Pizza Hut. If Pizza Hut discriminates in their hiring policies, the city of Phoenix won't just enact ordinances that encourage you to boycott their business, and threaten the traffic of surrounding businesses
    Being recruited to become a marine is a little different from eating out at Pizza Hut.

    Then lets try (insert organization here) if that will help get my point across.

    The council member that voted against these bills also brought up an excellent point - granting the PINK group a parking space essentially gives them preferential treatment over other equal-rights groups. Right now everyone on this thread seems to be screaming ''F*** those beef-eating discriminatory old-southern republicans in their cornfed asses" rather than looking at the way the city is behaving. You might completely disagree with a NAMBLA but if they set up in a strip mall next to Christ Church of the Valley they would still be equally protected. A parking space isn't a HUGE deal, but the council is officially endorsing the protests.

    Quick edit : I never said the city is encouraging them to harass individual Marines (although they probably do, when they try to park next to them and walk into the office, but that's a seperate issue) Someone said something like ''does waving a flag in a uniform allow you to be a bigot?" which, while not even close to an impartial question, prompted me writing ''is every marine a bigot?''

    MikeMcSomething on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    No, the City of Phoenix would just enact ordinances barring them from operating in their city entirely, and they'd rapidly find themselves sued in the State of Arizona's courts (or federal courts) for their discriminatory practices.

    Then the federal government exercises imminent domain and flips the hippies the bird.

    Doesn't really work.

    Salvation122 on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    No, the City of Phoenix would just enact ordinances barring them from operating in their city entirely, and they'd rapidly find themselves sued in the State of Arizona's courts (or federal courts) for their discriminatory practices.

    Then the federal government exercises imminent domain and flips the hippies the bird.

    Doesn't really work.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at.

    Malkor on
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  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.

    MikeMcSomething on
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2008
    Zahaladeen wrote: »
    Thank you, but I am well aware. If you look at any of my former OP's I usually ad commentary. But this... I just didn't know what to write so I let the news speak for itself. For me, there was really no way I could be objective on the issue.

    "Denny Crane."
    At least offer some kind of input. Why can't you remain objective on the issue? What stand do you take on it and why do you take said stand?

    Satan. on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.

    Something tells me dudes in army bases brag about the women they've had and nothing comes of it other than lolz.

    Malkor on
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  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Which makes it a problem of shitty implementation, and poor accountability for the people responsible in enforcing those policies. It doesn't paint a giant ''we should not be granted the same rights as other businesses in this strip mall, and the council should officially endorse our harassment'' target on their heads.

    MikeMcSomething on
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I for one wasn't aware that a city could just up and close down a recruiting center for the US government sanctioned military, regardless of reason. I guess you learn something new every day

    ITT: Berkley has a lot of stupid people, and here's a hint: they're not in the USMC

    edit: I like this

    Even though the council items passed, not everyone is happy with the work of Code Pink. Some employees and owners of businesses near the Marines office have had enough of the group and its protests.

    "My husband's business is right upstairs, and this (protesting) is bordering on harassment," Dori Schmidt told the council. "I hope this stops."

    An employee of a nearby business who asked not to be identified said Wednesday the elderly Code Pink protesters are aggressive, take up parking spaces, block the sidewalk with their yoga moves, smoke in the doorways, and are noisy.

    "Most of the people around here think they're a joke," the woman said.

    Wozniak said he was opposed to giving Code Pink a parking space because it favors free speech rights of one group over another.

    "There's a line between protesting and harassing, and that concerns me," Wozniak said. "It looks like we are showing favoritism. We have to respect the other side, and not abuse their rights. This is not good policy."

    amateurhour on
    are YOU on the beer list?
  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.

    Yep, and literacy tests applied to people of any color that couldn't read, so it was a fair policy.

    kdrudy on
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.
    It's a nice distinction but an irrelevant one. Whether the military is anti-gay through a bigoted rule or through the bigoted selective application of a rule doesn't really change the fact that they are clearly anti-gay.

    Richy on
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  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    kdrudy wrote: »
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.

    Yep, and literacy tests applied to people of any color that couldn't read, so it was a fair policy.

    Christ people.
    Then you start a second debate about how literacy tests don't address the issue of people who aren't properly educated. You don't officially endorse the disruption of the employees that administer the tests, and completely disrupt the small business owners in neighboring buildings

    MikeMcSomething on
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    kdrudy wrote: »
    I think its important to note that the Dont ask Dont tell policy applies to heterosexual relationships as well (so the problem is in how it is implemented, not how the rule istelf is written) If I say something along the lines of 'woo boy having sex with girls is awesome because I'm not gay!' and someone gets offended (homosexual or not) the military can just give me the boot. The rule isn't just ''get them fag-o's outta here'' but unfortunately that's how it is used.

    Yep, and literacy tests applied to people of any color that couldn't read, so it was a fair policy.

    Christ people.
    Then you start a second debate about how literacy tests don't address the issue of people who aren't properly educated. You don't officially endorse the disruption of the employees that administer the tests, and completely disrupt the small business owners in neighboring buildings

    amateurhour on
    are YOU on the beer list?
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Well, it sucks for people in the neighbouring buildings, that's for sure. But you can't really hold a public protest without unfortunately bothering people who have to be nearby and don't care about the protest. As far as I can see, the options are to have those innocent bystanders bothered, or to ban public protests. I think the first option remains preferable.

    Richy on
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