I didn't mean to. I swear I remember that Trull was around for a bit longer after that until Rhulad became so paranoid that he basically removed everyone that cared for him from his presence. It's at that point that Trull is shorn. Ah well, sorry about that.
Reaper's Gale/Bonehunters spoilers.
He does, but we don't actually see that happen. It's referenced to. Fear runs away. Trull 'betrays' him. This causes him to become paranoid of his family, and he sends his family away. His other brother gets killed by Karsa (we find out about this in BH, don't we? Where that ship came from with the dead Edur, etc, that was in HoC?), his parents are off looking for other champions. But if I'm not mistaken, it was Fear's departure and Trull's betrayal that actually caused him to send everyone away.
Continued spoilers
The boat is found with the speared brother in the 4th book I think and then in Bonehunters we follow Karsa when he does it I believe.
It's found in the 2nd. We watch Karsa kill them in the 4th. And we find out who they actually were and why they were there in the 6th.
I'd been meaning to start into this series, but I couldn't find a copy of the first book, just the second. I've read some comments that the first one isn't all that great; am I missing anything crucial?
Every book is crammed with crucial plot information.. the story is massivley layered and dense.
Although the stuff in the first book is mostly not readily needed for the 2nd book. But I certainly wouldnt reccomend reading the 3rd without having read the first.
Every book is crammed with crucial plot information.. the story is massivley layered and dense.
Although the stuff in the first book is mostly not readily needed for the 2nd book. But I certainly wouldnt reccomend reading the 3rd without having read the first.
Amazon should have the first book. In fact, they do. For 8 bucks.
1 set of characters is carried over from the first. Honestly, you'd like to read what happens with them before you read the second book. Other than that crew, it's all new stuff though.
Yeah the only problem with the first book is there's no setup, no introduction. You get chucked into the middle of a story with a lot of characters and a lot of things going on.
By the time you get to the 2nd book you'll have a much better feel of how differnt people and places relate.
Plus the second book has the Chain of Dogs.
Edit: I should stress that you need to be patient, there's often times where something will happen and you'll just be like "bwuh?". But then that thing will get payed off big time in a later book. Erikson sets up things way way way in advance.
I have a question from GotM, I can't remember if it's answered in later books. (I've read up to Bonehunters, so I just don't remember.)
Who keeps foiling Serrat's attempts to kill Crokus. She gets knocked out cold, blasted off a roof, and then has a knife to her throat while someone tells her to stop. Something about the prince. Is it somone from the Crimson Guard?
I have a question from GotM, I can't remember if it's answered in later books. (I've read up to Bonehunters, so I just don't remember.)
Who keeps foiling Serrat's attempts to kill Crokus. She gets knocked out cold, blasted off a roof, and then has a knife to her throat while someone tells her to stop. Something about the prince. Is it somone from the Crimson Guard?
I'm really stretching my memory here, since it's been a while, but I don't think it was explicitly said, it was just a "read between the lines" thing like so much else in GotM.
Wasn't it Vorcan, or whoever's the head of that assassin's guild? Who's apparently a High Mage-level adept?
I believe that the reason Serrat wasn't killed was because they didn't want to bring Rake into it, which is the 'prince' reference. I think. But like I said - small detail, long time ago.
Yeah, the thing is, every book feels like jumping into the middle of a series. Even the first one. You get used to it.
Well, he gets better at easing people into later books. MoI has a good 2/3rds of its cast as returning characters. HoC doesn't have to deal with many new people at once in the start, then has a large number of recurring characters when the cast explodes, and the central character of MT is someone you already know, and they take more time to introduce the characters/atmosphere of that continent. BH and RG are almost all recurring cast, so it's less an issue for people reading the series.
In retrospect, House of Chains and Midnight Tides might actually be the easiest books to pick up and read for newbies, simply in terms of pacing and number of characters to deal with at once. But by that point, the main plot's kinda in full swing and it would all be lost on you.
Yeah the only problem with the first book is there's no setup, no introduction. You get chucked into the middle of a story with a lot of characters and a lot of things going on.
See, I can sum up the issues right here - once the book gets to a certain city, Darujistan, the flow is much easier. And that's because it's the part of the story that was first made and (if memory serves) went through a number of iterations varying from movie script to D&D world plotline area. When converted into book form, the earlier portions were added on, which makes the segments seem rather disjoint, and also has a second "false start" a good portion of the way into the book when suddenly you have a whole new cast of characters to get to know.
By the time you get to the 2nd book you'll have a much better feel of how differnt people and places relate.
Also, the second book was written 8 years later, and Erikson had become a much better writer at that point.
I have a question from GotM, I can't remember if it's answered in later books. (I've read up to Bonehunters, so I just don't remember.)
Who keeps foiling Serrat's attempts to kill Crokus. She gets knocked out cold, blasted off a roof, and then has a knife to her throat while someone tells her to stop. Something about the prince. Is it somone from the Crimson Guard?
I'm really stretching my memory here, since it's been a while, but I don't think it was explicitly said, it was just a "read between the lines" thing like so much else in GotM.
Wasn't it Vorcan, or whoever's the head of that assassin's guild? Who's apparently a High Mage-level adept?
I believe that the reason Serrat wasn't killed was because they didn't want to bring Rake into it, which is the 'prince' reference. I think. But like I said - small detail, long time ago.
Serrat dies in GotM, anyway.
No no no guys.
Crokus is being protected by Cowl & co from the Crimson guard sent there by Caladan brood. There was a line IIRC, saying compliments to Rake from Brood or similar.
Edit: It was all a part of We shall kill him vs We Shall not plotline that opposed Rake vs Brood.....
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
Hmm. Sounds like I'll be okay then finishing the second book now and then reading the first before I go on to the third. So far I'm really liking it, and can see why it gets so much praise.
'Sure,' Spindle snapped, 'a story to break our hearts all over again! What's the value in that?'
A rough, broken voice replied, 'There is a value.'
Everyone fell silent, turned to Duiker.
The Imperial Historian had looked up, was studying them with dark eyes. 'Value. Yes. I think, much value. But not yours, soldiers. Not yet. Too soon for you. Too soon.'
'Perhaps,' Baruk murmured, 'perhaps you are right in that. We ask too much--'
'Of them. Yes.' The old man looked down once more at the cloth in his hands.
The silence stretched.
Duiker made no move.
Picker began to turn back to her companions - when the man began speaking.
'Very well, permit me, if you will, on this night. To break your hearts once more. This is the story of the Chain of Dogs. Of Coltaine of the Crow Clan, newly come Fist of the 7th Army . . .'
This end the Third Tale
of The
Malazan
Book of the Fallen
'Sure,' Spindle snapped, 'a story to break our hearts all over again! What's the value in that?'
A rough, broken voice replied, 'There is a value.'
Everyone fell silent, turned to Duiker.
The Imperial Historian had looked up, was studying them with dark eyes. 'Value. Yes. I think, much value. But not yours, soldiers. Not yet. Too soon for you. Too soon.'
'Perhaps,' Baruk murmured, 'perhaps you are right in that. We ask too much--'
'Of them. Yes.' The old man looked down once more at the cloth in his hands.
The silence stretched.
Duiker made no move.
Picker began to turn back to her companions - when the man began speaking.
'Very well, permit me, if you will, on this night. To break your hearts once more. This is the story of the Chain of Dogs. Of Coltaine of the Crow Clan, newly come Fist of the 7th Army . . .'
This end the Third Tale
of The
Malazan
Book of the Fallen
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
Uh read what he said, he's only read the first part of Gardens. It becomes easier to keep track once they get to Darjhustan but if you knew exactly what was going on at Pale during the first part of the book then you are a better man than I.
And Deadhouse Gates is much much easier to get into.
Basically you're wrong and this guy shouldn't listen to you.
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
Uh read what he said, he's only read the first part of Gardens. It becomes easier to keep track once they get to Darjhustan but if you knew exactly what was going on at Pale during the first part of the book then you are a better man than I.
And Deadhouse Gates is much much easier to get into.
Basically you're wrong and this guy shouldn't listen to you.
You don't know what is going on in the first part of almost every book where SE starts with a new setting and all you have by the end is a bunch of vague guesses. The charm of the whole series is that the big picture is unfolding and while it's keeping the plots connected, you're pretty much supposed to enjoy characters & events while trying to figure it out on your own. We're already @ book 7 taking wild guesses what exactly is going on. If you're having difficulties reading it without having actions explained & motives spelled out for you every 100 pages, odds are you're not going to like the series.
I appreciate your attempt of proving me wrong, but as debates go, that was a pretty poor one.
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
Uh read what he said, he's only read the first part of Gardens. It becomes easier to keep track once they get to Darjhustan but if you knew exactly what was going on at Pale during the first part of the book then you are a better man than I.
And Deadhouse Gates is much much easier to get into.
Basically you're wrong and this guy shouldn't listen to you.
You don't know what is going on in the first part of almost every book where SE starts with a new setting and all you have by the end is a bunch of vague guesses. The charm of the whole series is that the big picture is unfolding and while it's keeping the plots connected, you're pretty much supposed to enjoy characters & events while trying to figure it out on your own. We're already @ book 7 taking wild guesses what exactly is going on. If you're having difficulties reading it without having actions explained & motives spelled out for you every 100 pages, odds are you're not going to like the series.
I appreciate your attempt of proving me wrong, but as debates go, that was a pretty poor one.
No, you are wrong. At the start of the first book, you have 0 information about the world, warrens, history, races, nations, Ascendants, or anything. SE just dumps you in the middle of a campaign. By the end of the first book, you know who the Bridgeburners are, what a Warren is and what it does, and other basic stuff. It is much easier.
Yeah, we've got a basic ide. A Warren is a place, like a world. At the same time, a mage can open the gate and pull power frm the warren to do shit. Some Warrens are ruled by ascendants. These are Gods.
To get more metaphysical, Warrens are an imposition of Order onto Chaos. They apply structure to that power so that it can be harnessed. Holds are an older, courser version of this.
I really not so sure about that. I've been stuck about 200 pages into Bonehunters, and I'm still not certain what a warren is and what it does.
I'll spoil this, but this is all pre-BH stuff
You should know: that they are "magic"
You can travel by them.
There's quite a few. Some are Elder (Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, etc.) and can't be accessed by humans. Some are newer (Meanas, Thyr, Mockra) and can be accessed by humans.
Some have living residents, notably Shadow.
Each one seems to have a relationship to some god or god or ascendants.
They are somehow K'rul's veins. He is the one who created the whole system.
The Imperial Warren is the continent the Chained God fell onto, when they tried to stop Kallor.
Each Tiste race has its own warren. However, the Tiste Edur (Kurald Emurlahn) warren was shattered. Pieces of it have become mini-warrens, like the one of the Sha'ik, the Whirlwind goddess.
Omtose Phellack is the Jaghut warren of Ice.
Tellan was the Imass warren of Fire, but they somehow used it up making themselves immortal, becoming the T'lan Imass.
There are probably some bits and facts I'm missing there, though.
I read... just into the second part of the first book before setting it aside. I didn't given up on it, but started reading something else and was able to get into it much easier and now I don't want to stop .
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
Uh read what he said, he's only read the first part of Gardens. It becomes easier to keep track once they get to Darjhustan but if you knew exactly what was going on at Pale during the first part of the book then you are a better man than I.
And Deadhouse Gates is much much easier to get into.
Basically you're wrong and this guy shouldn't listen to you.
You don't know what is going on in the first part of almost every book where SE starts with a new setting and all you have by the end is a bunch of vague guesses. The charm of the whole series is that the big picture is unfolding and while it's keeping the plots connected, you're pretty much supposed to enjoy characters & events while trying to figure it out on your own. We're already @ book 7 taking wild guesses what exactly is going on. If you're having difficulties reading it without having actions explained & motives spelled out for you every 100 pages, odds are you're not going to like the series.
I appreciate your attempt of proving me wrong, but as debates go, that was a pretty poor one.
No, you are wrong. At the start of the first book, you have 0 information about the world.
And all the information you get is absolutely irrelevant for 3 of the next 4 books.
warrens, history, races, nations, Ascendants, or anything. SE just dumps you in the middle of a campaign.
By the end of the first book, you know who the Bridgeburners are, what a Warren is and what it does, and other basic stuff. It is much easier.
By the end of the first book, you know who the Bridgeburners are, what a Warren is and what it does, and other basic stuff. It is much easier.
Aha, them bridgeburners have a pretty huge role in the second book. Oh, and in the 5th. And first half of the third....and.....anyway. You're right, I was wrong. Once you have read GoTM it's much easier.
I really not so sure about that. I've been stuck about 200 pages into Bonehunters, and I'm still not certain what a warren is and what it does.
I'll spoil this, but this is all pre-BH stuff
You should know: that they are "magic"
You can travel by them.
There's quite a few. Some are Elder (Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, etc.) and can't be accessed by humans. Some are newer (Meanas, Thyr, Mockra) and can be accessed by humans.
Some have living residents, notably Shadow.
Each one seems to have a relationship to some god or god or ascendants.
They are somehow K'rul's veins. He is the one who created the whole system.
The Imperial Warren is the continent the Chained God fell onto, when they tried to stop Kallor.
Each Tiste race has its own warren. However, the Tiste Edur (Kurald Emurlahn) warren was shattered. Pieces of it have become mini-warrens, like the one of the Sha'ik, the Whirlwind goddess.
Omtose Phellack is the Jaghut warren of Ice.
Tellan was the Imass warren of Fire, but they somehow used it up making themselves immortal, becoming the T'lan Imass.
There are probably some bits and facts I'm missing there, though.
Ok, so I admit that I was a bit exaggerating things there, but I just haven't been able to grok a lot about warrens. A lot of Erickson's don't make much sense to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, its been a long time (a couple years at least) since I read GotM, which is possibly why I can't wrap my head around the warren concept.
Especially the K'rul's veins thing. The analogy doesn't seem very clear, are they somehow part of K'rul's body?
Each Tiste has their own warren that they travel through, and control, right? And I think I remember reading about how the Tiste came from some other (non-Malazan) world through the warren, yes? So, these warren dimensions are somehow connected to other worlds. Yet I remember times where they mention how, for example, that they couldn't use the Warrens to travel over a body of water in the Malazan world. I don't understand how warrens can be so affected by a body of water in the malazan world, if a warren's can be accessed by other worlds.
Its stuff like this that kinda confuses me. Ask me to describe a warren, and I'll say its kinda like another world, but its not really, and it acts like some kind of power source, but is also a place.
I even think its been used to time travel, yes? I think in the 2nd or 3rd book, there was some weird overlap with part of a warren being flooded at two different times. This one might just me confused about the sequence of events in the book, but I couldn't reconcile the sequence of events in the book otherwise.
So, in all, I end up pretty uncertain what warrens are. They seem like they're just about anything magical or fantastic all wrapped up in one package.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Firstly, remember that since the books take place in different locations, they aren't in chronological order. Book 5 occurs BEFORE any of the others. Book 2 and 3 occur more or less at the same time, with 3 going slightly past the end of 2. The Flooded warren happens in book 5, is seen in Book 2 and late in book 4.
The K'rul thing is strange, and we don't really understand it completely. But essentially, K'rul opened his own veins (ie - bled, which is the source of power for Elder Gods) and created the Warrens. In some way he IS the warrens too I believe. Like I said, we're not sure.
But that's the way it goes. Erikson doesn't want to explain it all, because the people in the books may not even understand it all and because it may be a major plot point. We basically know just enough about warrens to understand roughly how they work, and that's about it.
Firstly, remember that since the books take place in different locations, they aren't in chronological order. Book 5 occurs BEFORE any of the others. Book 2 and 3 occur more or less at the same time, with 3 going slightly past the end of 2. The Flooded warren happens in book 5, is seen in Book 2 and late in book 4.
MoI
The K'rul thing is strange, and we don't really understand it completely. But essentially, K'rul opened his own veins (ie - bled, which is the source of power for Elder Gods) and created the Warrens. In some way he IS the warrens too I believe. Like I said, we're not sure.
But that's the way it goes. Erikson doesn't want to explain it all, because the people in the books may not even understand it all and because it may be a major plot point. We basically know just enough about warrens to understand roughly how they work, and that's about it.
I really not so sure about that. I've been stuck about 200 pages into Bonehunters, and I'm still not certain what a warren is and what it does.
I'll spoil this, but this is all pre-BH stuff
You should know: that they are "magic"
You can travel by them.
There's quite a few. Some are Elder (Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, etc.) and can't be accessed by humans. Some are newer (Meanas, Thyr, Mockra) and can be accessed by humans.
Some have living residents, notably Shadow.
Each one seems to have a relationship to some god or god or ascendants.
They are somehow K'rul's veins. He is the one who created the whole system.
The Imperial Warren is the continent the Chained God fell onto, when they tried to stop Kallor.
Each Tiste race has its own warren. However, the Tiste Edur (Kurald Emurlahn) warren was shattered. Pieces of it have become mini-warrens, like the one of the Sha'ik, the Whirlwind goddess.
Omtose Phellack is the Jaghut warren of Ice.
Tellan was the Imass warren of Fire, but they somehow used it up making themselves immortal, becoming the T'lan Imass.
There are probably some bits and facts I'm missing there, though.
Ok, so I admit that I was a bit exaggerating things there, but I just haven't been able to grok a lot about warrens. A lot of Erickson's don't make much sense to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, its been a long time (a couple years at least) since I read GotM, which is possibly why I can't wrap my head around the warren concept.
Especially the K'rul's veins thing. The analogy doesn't seem very clear, are they somehow part of K'rul's body?
Each Tiste has their own warren that they travel through, and control, right? And I think I remember reading about how the Tiste came from some other (non-Malazan) world through the warren, yes? So, these warren dimensions are somehow connected to other worlds. Yet I remember times where they mention how, for example, that they couldn't use the Warrens to travel over a body of water in the Malazan world. I don't understand how warrens can be so affected by a body of water in the malazan world, if a warren's can be accessed by other worlds.
Its stuff like this that kinda confuses me. Ask me to describe a warren, and I'll say its kinda like another world, but its not really, and it acts like some kind of power source, but is also a place.
I even think its been used to time travel, yes? I think in the 2nd or 3rd book, there was some weird overlap with part of a warren being flooded at two different times. This one might just me confused about the sequence of events in the book, but I couldn't reconcile the sequence of events in the book otherwise.
So, in all, I end up pretty uncertain what warrens are. They seem like they're just about anything magical or fantastic all wrapped up in one package.
First off, nice use of the word grok. I won't claim to grok warrens either, admittedly. But the thing you have to wrap your head around to 'get' the warrens is not the warrens themselves, but what are the Elder Gods?
Like...what's Burn? Burn is a Goddess, who's sleeping, but who also happens to be the planet that they're living on. Does that mean that everyone's like a bunch of ants on the surface of this giant creature floating through space who's sleeping? Or do they mean it more in the elemental sense? They're often referred to as elemental forces. So the Elder Gods are not like the modern Gods (just like the elder warrens aren't like the modern warrens in a number of ways) - Mael is the God of the Sea, and can be viewed as an avatar of it. This does not make him the ocean itself, but it is his aspect. (Not getting into too much detail here, as discussion could lead to RG spoilers). Similarly, K'Rul's "blood" was made into the warrens just as Burn's "body" is the world.
Each Tiste has their own warren that they travel through, and control, right? And I think I remember reading about how the Tiste came from some other (non-Malazan) world through the warren, yes? So, these warren dimensions are somehow connected to other worlds. Yet I remember times where they mention how, for example, that they couldn't use the Warrens to travel over a body of water in the Malazan world. I don't understand how warrens can be so affected by a body of water in the malazan world, if a warren's can be accessed by other worlds.
Elder Warrens are each aspected to a specific race.
There's two others mentioned in relation to the Forkrul Assail and Toblokai as well, I believe.
Elder Warrens appear to be more self-contained worlds. Modern warrens (which appear to be descended from Holds - once more, not going into too much detail given MT and RG stuff) seem to be more aspected to our own world - see how Quick Ben sneaks up on Bruchelain in MoI.
I even think its been used to time travel, yes? I think in the 2nd or 3rd book, there was some weird overlap with part of a warren being flooded at two different times. This one might just me confused about the sequence of events in the book, but I couldn't reconcile the sequence of events in the book otherwise.
As far as I know, there is no time travel associated with warrens.
Anyway, some quotes that might help. Just listing books that said quotes are from, so you can spoiler whichever ones you like.
Various Erikson interviews from '03:
Steven Erikson: Are warrens aspect specific? Generally, yes. The death of A'karonys in Gardens seems consistent with that.(Q and A with malazanempire No 1 (2003))
Steven Erikson: How does one become a mage? I'm sure I mentioned this elsewhere, but it's acquired through discipline and study, usually under the tutelage of another mage, but not always. Personality often guides the aspect, or warren, one chooses. But not always.(Q and A with malazanempire No 2 (2003))
Steven Erikson: Why do warrens seem to be weaker the younger they are? Just as a puppy is weaker than a full grown wolf, I guess.(Q and A with malazanempire No 2 (2003))
Steven Erikson: Are all human-accessed warrens descended from Elder warrens? Well, they're all variations on that extended list of elemental forces that make up the Elder Warrens, so I guess, yes is the answer.(Q and A with malazanempire No 2 (2003))
MoI (that speech. You know which one)
Visions flooded her (Lady Envy's) mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening – pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth – a savage imposition of order, the heart from which blood flowed in even, steady streams. Twin chambers to that heart – Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark – and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of...Dragons. And the blood – the power – now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens...in striding through the warrens, we travel through your very flesh. That, when we draw upon the power of the warrens, we draw your very blood? Who knows?
K'rul: Anomander Rake, Draconus, Osric, a handful of others. And now you. Forgive me, Lady Envy, I have no wish to be a tyrant. My presence within the warrens has ever been passive – you are free to do as you choose, as is every other creature who swims my immortal blood.
BH:
'I am Eloth, Mistress of Illusions - Meanas Mockra and Thyr. A Shaper of the Blood. All that K'rul asked of me, I have done.'
'And I should now presume that for each of the warrens, Elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavours of K'rul's blood?
'As I understand things,' Cotillion said, ' once these dragons did what K'rul asked of them, they were compelled to return to Starvald Demelain. As the sources of csorcery, they could not be permitted to interfere or remain active across the realms, lest sorcery ceased to be predictable, which in turn would feed Chaos - the eternal enemy in the grand scheme.'
GotM:
'The Warrens of Magic dwelt in the beyond. Find the gate and nudge it
open a crack. What leaks out is yours to shape. With these words a
young woman set out on the path to sorcery. Open yourself to the
Warren that comes to you – that finds you. Draw forth its power – as
much as your body and soul are capable of containing – but remember,
when the body fails, the gate closes.' (GotM, p.58)
But perhaps the most succinct explanation comes in MT. This doesn't really spoil any plot though.
Seren Pedac: 'What’s a warren?’
Corlo: 'Well, even that’s not easy to answer, lass. It’s a path of magic. The forces that govern all existence are aspected. Which means...Paths of aspected magic. Like forces and unlike forces. Right? Unlike forces repel, and like forces hold together, you see. Same as water in a river, all flowing the same way. Sure, there’s eddies, draws and such, but it all heads down eventually. I’ll talk about those eddies later. So, the warrens are those rivers, only you can’t see them. The current is invisible, and what you can see is only the effect...that’s the other thing about warrens. They can be realms, entire worlds. Step through and you can find yourself in a land with ten moons overhead,
and stars in constellations you’ve never seen before. Places with two suns. Or places filled with the spirits of the dead – although if you step through the gates in Hood’s Realm you don’t come back. Or, rather, you shouldn’t. Anyway, a mage finds a warren suited to his or her nature, a natural affinity if you like. And through enough study and discipline you find ways of reaching into it, making use of the forces within it. Some people, of course, are born with natural talent, meaning they don’t have to work as hard.’
(MT, UK trade, p.554-6)
How I draw together everything into a kind of quasi-coherent map. This is just my take, and someone will probably come along and correct me on something. I'll try to keep this spoiler-free beyond...eh...BH...it's tough to work in everything to be post-MoI.
I'm not going to get into how all of this started, just how it is. Just as Burn is the world, K'rul gave his own body - his blood, to form powers through which order might be preserved from chaos. The two halves of his heart were Darkness (Kurald Galain - perfect order) and the Dragons (Starvald Demelain - to be construed to be simply raw power). From Starvald Demelain, a number of different dragons were born, each with different aspects. Each aspect, in turn, 'birthed' the other Elder Warrens, each of which has its own world. The races that were aspected by these warrens either discovered them or were born into them. One of the dragons was aspected to what could negate the others - Otataral. The three Kuralds were all primarily aspected to a number of Soultaken Eliant (who weren't like the real things, and we're not going to get into the whole family tree here), warred, and Kurald Emurlahn was shattered.
ANYWAY, time passed, humans and other modern creatures came into being. These species were able to tap into the raw power known as Holds, which were aspected to varying blends of the elder warrens. These Holds did not act as their own separate worlds, as they were not like the Elder Warrens. As time passed and they became used more, they simply evolved into the modern warrens, which were less (not using the word in the meaning of the series) chaotic, and simpler to control, but perhaps less powerful individually because of it. These 'modern' warrens are still like that invisible flow that can be utilized by individuals aspected to them, and they can be used as a means to travel quickly as they filter out the 'noise' of the real world, so to speak, but they're not separate worlds the way elder warrens are. The only notable exception to this would be Meanas, which is a 'mortal' warren, but is in fact an Elder Warren which was shattered - simply the largest piece thereof (there was some quote about Shadowthrone thinking he was in the castle when it turned out to be just the gatehouse or something like that).
Now, this is (of course) not even beginning to touch on the Deck or the Tiles. But it's a loose enough structure that everything seems to fit into it, it's still open enough to be modified as more information comes out (ie, adding in the dragons from later books, etc) and it's good enough that when there's a reference to a warren in the book, I don't go "wait, what?"
shryke - spoiler that shit.
Edit. Crap. You can't. I edited it in the top of my post, with tags for whatever book it tells stuff from. mind killing your post? The second one is a pretty neat revelation for readers in MoI
Okay so I'm reading Bonehunters. Someone explain to me what the fuck just happaned.
So a gigantic storm of something (more Jade statues?) came from somewhere and was sent by someone who is neither the Crippled God nor the gods opposing him and it would have destroyed the world but Paran and Hood did something and then Heboric who was a chopped up corpse at the time also did something and now everything is ok.
another round of Jade Statues crashed into the planet. They smashed through the moon first though, more or less breaking it into tiny pieces. These things are coming through the rent that they pulled the Crippled God through, and have been doing so for awhile. There's one buried in the Otataral desert. That's the thing Heboric touched that pulled Fenir onto the mortal plane. So he's got a connection with it.
(Some ideas are that the Otataral desert was CAUSED by the Jade Statues crashing. But that's speculation.)
Anyway, it would have caused HUGE devastation, so Paran struck a deal with Hood to let Heboric back into the world of the living for a few minutes, so he could do ... something. Anyway, he somehow uses his connection with the statues to pull them all to the Otataral desert so as to contain the devastation.
Posts
Although the stuff in the first book is mostly not readily needed for the 2nd book. But I certainly wouldnt reccomend reading the 3rd without having read the first.
Amazon should have the first book. In fact, they do. For 8 bucks.
He gets better again later though.
By the time you get to the 2nd book you'll have a much better feel of how differnt people and places relate.
Plus the second book has the Chain of Dogs.
Edit: I should stress that you need to be patient, there's often times where something will happen and you'll just be like "bwuh?". But then that thing will get payed off big time in a later book. Erikson sets up things way way way in advance.
I'm really stretching my memory here, since it's been a while, but I don't think it was explicitly said, it was just a "read between the lines" thing like so much else in GotM.
I believe that the reason Serrat wasn't killed was because they didn't want to bring Rake into it, which is the 'prince' reference. I think. But like I said - small detail, long time ago.
Serrat dies in GotM, anyway.
Well, he gets better at easing people into later books. MoI has a good 2/3rds of its cast as returning characters. HoC doesn't have to deal with many new people at once in the start, then has a large number of recurring characters when the cast explodes, and the central character of MT is someone you already know, and they take more time to introduce the characters/atmosphere of that continent. BH and RG are almost all recurring cast, so it's less an issue for people reading the series.
In retrospect, House of Chains and Midnight Tides might actually be the easiest books to pick up and read for newbies, simply in terms of pacing and number of characters to deal with at once. But by that point, the main plot's kinda in full swing and it would all be lost on you.
See, I can sum up the issues right here - once the book gets to a certain city, Darujistan, the flow is much easier. And that's because it's the part of the story that was first made and (if memory serves) went through a number of iterations varying from movie script to D&D world plotline area. When converted into book form, the earlier portions were added on, which makes the segments seem rather disjoint, and also has a second "false start" a good portion of the way into the book when suddenly you have a whole new cast of characters to get to know.
Also, the second book was written 8 years later, and Erikson had become a much better writer at that point.
Yes.
No no no guys.
Edit: It was all a part of We shall kill him vs We Shall not plotline that opposed Rake vs Brood.....
The Wickans are some of my favorite characters.
Some one post the end of the third book.
You know what part I'm talking about.
Based on the reassurances here that the first book is a very painful read (as far as keeping track of the cast and what the hell is going on), I'll push through and finish the first book and check out the next two at some point in the not so distant future.
Dont read this if you haven't read DG and MOI
A rough, broken voice replied, 'There is a value.'
Everyone fell silent, turned to Duiker.
The Imperial Historian had looked up, was studying them with dark eyes. 'Value. Yes. I think, much value. But not yours, soldiers. Not yet. Too soon for you. Too soon.'
'Perhaps,' Baruk murmured, 'perhaps you are right in that. We ask too much--'
'Of them. Yes.' The old man looked down once more at the cloth in his hands.
The silence stretched.
Duiker made no move.
Picker began to turn back to her companions - when the man began speaking.
'Very well, permit me, if you will, on this night. To break your hearts once more. This is the story of the Chain of Dogs. Of Coltaine of the Crow Clan, newly come Fist of the 7th Army . . .'
of The
Malazan
Book of the Fallen
It's pretty false that GoTM is painful. Odds are, if you are confused what is going on and keeping track of the cast you'll stay that way for the whole series. GoTM is slightly incoherent with the other books and a messy plot, but I seriously doubt that 2nd or third will fair any better for you if you can't get into the first.
Uh read what he said, he's only read the first part of Gardens. It becomes easier to keep track once they get to Darjhustan but if you knew exactly what was going on at Pale during the first part of the book then you are a better man than I.
And Deadhouse Gates is much much easier to get into.
Basically you're wrong and this guy shouldn't listen to you.
You don't know what is going on in the first part of almost every book where SE starts with a new setting and all you have by the end is a bunch of vague guesses. The charm of the whole series is that the big picture is unfolding and while it's keeping the plots connected, you're pretty much supposed to enjoy characters & events while trying to figure it out on your own. We're already @ book 7 taking wild guesses what exactly is going on. If you're having difficulties reading it without having actions explained & motives spelled out for you every 100 pages, odds are you're not going to like the series.
I appreciate your attempt of proving me wrong, but as debates go, that was a pretty poor one.
No, you are wrong. At the start of the first book, you have 0 information about the world, warrens, history, races, nations, Ascendants, or anything. SE just dumps you in the middle of a campaign. By the end of the first book, you know who the Bridgeburners are, what a Warren is and what it does, and other basic stuff. It is much easier.
I really not so sure about that. I've been stuck about 200 pages into Bonehunters, and I'm still not certain what a warren is and what it does.
Perhaps not the science behind it, but you're not going "huh? what's a warren?" when people say "warren."
Also, you're supposed to get the majority of the logic behind them by the end of MoI.
Spoilers for...eh...book 5 onwards
To get more metaphysical, Warrens are an imposition of Order onto Chaos. They apply structure to that power so that it can be harnessed. Holds are an older, courser version of this.
I'll spoil this, but this is all pre-BH stuff
You can travel by them.
There's quite a few. Some are Elder (Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, etc.) and can't be accessed by humans. Some are newer (Meanas, Thyr, Mockra) and can be accessed by humans.
Some have living residents, notably Shadow.
Each one seems to have a relationship to some god or god or ascendants.
They are somehow K'rul's veins. He is the one who created the whole system.
The Imperial Warren is the continent the Chained God fell onto, when they tried to stop Kallor.
Each Tiste race has its own warren. However, the Tiste Edur (Kurald Emurlahn) warren was shattered. Pieces of it have become mini-warrens, like the one of the Sha'ik, the Whirlwind goddess.
Omtose Phellack is the Jaghut warren of Ice.
Tellan was the Imass warren of Fire, but they somehow used it up making themselves immortal, becoming the T'lan Imass.
There are probably some bits and facts I'm missing there, though.
And all the information you get is absolutely irrelevant for 3 of the next 4 books.
Cedancy, elder warrens, paths etc. Seven cities, Lether. Eldur, Teblor, k'chain....
Aha, them bridgeburners have a pretty huge role in the second book. Oh, and in the 5th. And first half of the third....and.....anyway. You're right, I was wrong. Once you have read GoTM it's much easier.
Ok, so I admit that I was a bit exaggerating things there, but I just haven't been able to grok a lot about warrens. A lot of Erickson's don't make much sense to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, its been a long time (a couple years at least) since I read GotM, which is possibly why I can't wrap my head around the warren concept.
Each Tiste has their own warren that they travel through, and control, right? And I think I remember reading about how the Tiste came from some other (non-Malazan) world through the warren, yes? So, these warren dimensions are somehow connected to other worlds. Yet I remember times where they mention how, for example, that they couldn't use the Warrens to travel over a body of water in the Malazan world. I don't understand how warrens can be so affected by a body of water in the malazan world, if a warren's can be accessed by other worlds.
Its stuff like this that kinda confuses me. Ask me to describe a warren, and I'll say its kinda like another world, but its not really, and it acts like some kind of power source, but is also a place.
I even think its been used to time travel, yes? I think in the 2nd or 3rd book, there was some weird overlap with part of a warren being flooded at two different times. This one might just me confused about the sequence of events in the book, but I couldn't reconcile the sequence of events in the book otherwise.
So, in all, I end up pretty uncertain what warrens are. They seem like they're just about anything magical or fantastic all wrapped up in one package.
The K'rul thing is strange, and we don't really understand it completely. But essentially, K'rul opened his own veins (ie - bled, which is the source of power for Elder Gods) and created the Warrens. In some way he IS the warrens too I believe. Like I said, we're not sure.
But that's the way it goes. Erikson doesn't want to explain it all, because the people in the books may not even understand it all and because it may be a major plot point. We basically know just enough about warrens to understand roughly how they work, and that's about it.
MT
MoI
But that's the way it goes. Erikson doesn't want to explain it all, because the people in the books may not even understand it all and because it may be a major plot point. We basically know just enough about warrens to understand roughly how they work, and that's about it.
First off, nice use of the word grok. I won't claim to grok warrens either, admittedly. But the thing you have to wrap your head around to 'get' the warrens is not the warrens themselves, but what are the Elder Gods?
Elder Warrens are each aspected to a specific race.
Starvald Demelain - Eliant
Kurald Galain - Tiste Andii
Kurald Emurlahn - Tiste Edur
Kurald Thyrllan - Tiste Liosan
Omtose Phellack - Jhagut
Tellann - Imass
There's two others mentioned in relation to the Forkrul Assail and Toblokai as well, I believe.
Elder Warrens appear to be more self-contained worlds. Modern warrens (which appear to be descended from Holds - once more, not going into too much detail given MT and RG stuff) seem to be more aspected to our own world - see how Quick Ben sneaks up on Bruchelain in MoI.
As far as I know, there is no time travel associated with warrens.
Anyway, some quotes that might help. Just listing books that said quotes are from, so you can spoiler whichever ones you like.
Various Erikson interviews from '03:
MoI (that speech. You know which one)
BH:
GotM:
But perhaps the most succinct explanation comes in MT. This doesn't really spoil any plot though.
How I draw together everything into a kind of quasi-coherent map. This is just my take, and someone will probably come along and correct me on something. I'll try to keep this spoiler-free beyond...eh...BH...it's tough to work in everything to be post-MoI.
ANYWAY, time passed, humans and other modern creatures came into being. These species were able to tap into the raw power known as Holds, which were aspected to varying blends of the elder warrens. These Holds did not act as their own separate worlds, as they were not like the Elder Warrens. As time passed and they became used more, they simply evolved into the modern warrens, which were less (not using the word in the meaning of the series) chaotic, and simpler to control, but perhaps less powerful individually because of it. These 'modern' warrens are still like that invisible flow that can be utilized by individuals aspected to them, and they can be used as a means to travel quickly as they filter out the 'noise' of the real world, so to speak, but they're not separate worlds the way elder warrens are. The only notable exception to this would be Meanas, which is a 'mortal' warren, but is in fact an Elder Warren which was shattered - simply the largest piece thereof (there was some quote about Shadowthrone thinking he was in the castle when it turned out to be just the gatehouse or something like that).
Now, this is (of course) not even beginning to touch on the Deck or the Tiles. But it's a loose enough structure that everything seems to fit into it, it's still open enough to be modified as more information comes out (ie, adding in the dragons from later books, etc) and it's good enough that when there's a reference to a warren in the book, I don't go "wait, what?"
shryke - spoiler that shit.
Edit. Crap. You can't. I edited it in the top of my post, with tags for whatever book it tells stuff from. mind killing your post? The second one is a pretty neat revelation for readers in MoI
(Some ideas are that the Otataral desert was CAUSED by the Jade Statues crashing. But that's speculation.)
Anyway, it would have caused HUGE devastation, so Paran struck a deal with Hood to let Heboric back into the world of the living for a few minutes, so he could do ... something. Anyway, he somehow uses his connection with the statues to pull them all to the Otataral desert so as to contain the devastation.
I was skimming the wiki page for High House Shadow and had the death of one of my favorite characters spoiled for me.