See, this is why the experience argument is dumb. It just gives a bunch of fucking media people the chance to argument about "who is more inexperienced, Obama or Palin?" Which is not a good argument, because Obama is the presidential candidate and head of the movement, and Palin is the good looking second banana.
So you've seen into McCain's game here. He's going to get the Dems to shoot themselves in the foot by making experience a central issue of the campaign. That said, he's got a mountain to climb.
I don't see it becoming a bigger issue than the fact that he picked sarah fucking palin to be his vp.
See, this is why the experience argument is dumb. It just gives a bunch of fucking media people the chance to argument about "who is more inexperienced, Obama or Palin?" Which is not a good argument, because Obama is the presidential candidate and head of the movement, and Palin is the good looking second banana.
The experience argument is fine so long as you frame it right. Don't make it a 'who has more experience' or even a 'let's compare their experience' tack, make it a 'if she is qualified to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency doesn't that make all of McCain's attacks on Obama's experience hypocritical?' or 'does this pick symbolize a choice of good, experienced leadership in governance or good campaign politics?'
See, this is why the experience argument is dumb. It just gives a bunch of fucking media people the chance to argument about "who is more inexperienced, Obama or Palin?" Which is not a good argument, because Obama is the presidential candidate and head of the movement, and Palin is the good looking second banana.
So you've seen into McCain's game here. He's going to get the Dems to shoot themselves in the foot by making experience a central issue of the campaign. That said, he's got a mountain to climb.
See, here's the thing. Barack Obama just spent the last 18 months campaigning and making people comfortable with the idea of him as President. That was what the convention was largely about, but also the entire campaign showed that he got a ton of votes and he had to prove himself in debates with Biden and Richardson and Dodd and Edwards and especially Clinton. And he did that. And he's shown an interest in foreign policy his entire life. Primarily, Barack Obama is a foreign policy candidate. If Hillary Clinton had voted against the AUMF, she wins the nomination running away, I think we all accept that.
Sarah Palin had no opinion about the Iraq war a year ago. Two weeks ago, she wasn't familiar with the GOP talking points on Iraq. She is uninterested in foreign policy and is running for a position behind a 72 year old four time cancer survivor who was tortured and imprisoned in a Vietnamese prison for four and a half years. It is tremendously important that the person in McCain's VP role is seen as credible on national security matters. Sarah Palin is not.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
See, this is why the experience argument is dumb. It just gives a bunch of fucking media people the chance to argument about "who is more inexperienced, Obama or Palin?" Which is not a good argument, because Obama is the presidential candidate and head of the movement, and Palin is the good looking second banana.
So you've seen into McCain's game here. He's going to get the Dems to shoot themselves in the foot by making experience a central issue of the campaign. That said, he's got a mountain to climb.
The thing is, the Obama campaign could do nothing but run ads about how awesome puppies are, and the McCain campaign would still hammer and yammer away about how experience is the central issue of the campaign.
Pointing out that McCain thinks that someone with less experience than Obama is qualified to be President (that's a quote from the McCain campaign's official announcment, by the way) does more to defuse that argument than anything.
Sarah Palin is gorgeous and stole Obama's thunder.
I guess.
My confusion over this choice is going to remain for several days I think.
So she's the opposite in looks and... not in experience or capabilities?
Looks might not be the only reason Harriet Miers was rejected.
durandal4532 on
Do what you can to elect Harris/Walz and downticket Dem candidates in your area by doorknocking, phonebanking, or postcarding: https://www.mobilize.us/
The thing is, the Obama campaign could do nothing but run ads about how awesome puppies are, and the McCain campaign would still hammer and yammer away about how experience is the central issue of the campaign.
Actually, all of his ads here are about how Barack Obama will tax us all into poverty.
How can you pick a VP solely as a personified negative attack on your opponent?
What if you win and then die? Does McCain really want to put the country into Palin's hands?
It's just . . .
Man what.
between the DNC and this choice I'm at the height in my feelings about this whole thing since I first read about the democratic candidates however many months ago. I'm not joking. Today was a gamble from someone who knew after probably wednesday night that he was not going to win with things as they were so he took a shot in the dark. after 18 hours or whatever it's been it looks to me, from every angle, like he's missed by a mile.
I just don't see how this helps him and I see so many ways that it hurts.
edit - I was imagining today the idea that in a year, reasonably, Palin could be president. Not that I wish illness or death on mccain. but good god!
And yeah, I should add that the thing you attack Palin is not an attack on Palin at all. The fundamental question every candidate should ask of themselves when they select a VP is "Can this person hold the office of the Presidency?"
Palin transparently fails that test right now. John McCain is not serious about governing the country, Barack Obama with his selection of Joe Biden is. That's the attack.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
How can you pick a VP solely as a personified negative attack on your opponent?
What if you win and then die? Does McCain really want to put the country into Palin's hands?
It's just . . .
Man what.
I think it's more simple than that. McCain is doing what he thinks it'll take to win. All other priorities are secondary because if you can't win then game over. I doubt he actually worries about what kind of president Palin will be after he's dead. Seriously, if he's dead why would he care?
Palin transparently fails that test right now. John McCain is not serious about governing the country, Barack Obama with his selection of Joe Biden is. That's the attack.
As far as trying to pander to the female vote goes, Linda Lingle would've been more ideal. Her moderate streak in conjunction with her being governor of an otherwise Democratic state could have had favorable results. But McCain went with the other non-contiguous state governor.
Highlighted the problem for you. McCain needed somebody with a vagina who would also help bring him the crazy conservative vote (that he's been having trouble attracting, having been portrayed as moderate. Rallying the base was a much bigger consideration than experience or attracting independents.
Palin transparently fails that test right now. John McCain is not serious about governing the country, Barack Obama with his selection of Joe Biden is. That's the attack.
"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"
Note the party identification and where she's from.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
The MSM's already started to pick up on the "met with McCain only once," "two years of experience," and "clearly got the nomitination due to her gender" lines of attack. Both MSNBC and CNN were talking about that a great deal tonight after the initial morning "OMG VAGINA" shock wore off. McCain may be made of fucking media teflon due to his POW status, but Palin isn't, and I'm wondering if the MSM won't jump at the chance to ream McCain's VP pick in the interests of creating new stories now that Obama and Biden are pretty much old news.
Holy God, if Palin actually manages to take some part of the radical pro-Hillary feminist vote away from the Democrats I will laugh and laugh and laugh.
Qualified as to not generalise an entire school of academic thought.
For months, the McCainiacs have said they will run on his judgment and experience. In his first presidential decision, John McCain has shown that he is willing to endanger his country, potentially leaving it in the hands of someone who simply has no business being a heartbeat away from the most powerful, complicated, difficult job in human history.
Unfortunately, he doesn't point out that it was all to win a Presidential election, thus showing that McCain is brazenly and dangerously putting politics above governance and above the future of this country.
We've already had almost eight years of someone who has done just that.
Uh, no where in my post did i say she should have aborted her child, nor did i say that disabled children should have been aborted. What i was trying to say is, if you see a woman who's pregnant who is smoking a ciggerate, how do you feel? Do you go, "Gee, I sure am glad that she's exercised her right to choose!", no. You think she's an unfit mother for it, because she's doing something that could hurt her child. Does that mean you think that the mommy smoker should be forced to abort her baby? No, but it certainly doesn't make her a good parent.
Forty year olds shouldn't be such sluts and have sex then?
The MSM's already started to pick up on the "met with McCain only once," "two years of experience," and "clearly got the nomitination due to her gender" lines of attack. Both MSNBC and CNN were talking about that a great deal tonight after the initial morning "OMG VAGINA" shock wore off. McCain may be made of fucking media teflon due to his POW status, but Palin isn't, and I'm wondering if the MSM won't jump at the chance to ream McCain's VP pick in the interests of creating new stories now that Obama and Biden are pretty much old news.
Palin was selected last night because McCain couldn't have Lieberman.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
The MSM's already started to pick up on the "met with McCain only once," "two years of experience," and "clearly got the nomitination due to her gender" lines of attack. Both MSNBC and CNN were talking about that a great deal tonight after the initial morning "OMG VAGINA" shock wore off. McCain may be made of fucking media teflon due to his POW status, but Palin isn't, and I'm wondering if the MSM won't jump at the chance to ream McCain's VP pick in the interests of creating new stories now that Obama and Biden are pretty much old news.
And Fox?
O'Reilly was skeptical, even. That should say something. He said that the experience argument is gone now.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
The MSM's already started to pick up on the "met with McCain only once," "two years of experience," and "clearly got the nomitination due to her gender" lines of attack. Both MSNBC and CNN were talking about that a great deal tonight after the initial morning "OMG VAGINA" shock wore off. McCain may be made of fucking media teflon due to his POW status, but Palin isn't, and I'm wondering if the MSM won't jump at the chance to ream McCain's VP pick in the interests of creating new stories now that Obama and Biden are pretty much old news.
And Fox?
McCain could forcibly sodomize an eight-year-old-boy and Fox would hail it as "a brave new foray into the youth vote."
The MSM's already started to pick up on the "met with McCain only once," "two years of experience," and "clearly got the nomitination due to her gender" lines of attack. Both MSNBC and CNN were talking about that a great deal tonight after the initial morning "OMG VAGINA" shock wore off. McCain may be made of fucking media teflon due to his POW status, but Palin isn't, and I'm wondering if the MSM won't jump at the chance to ream McCain's VP pick in the interests of creating new stories now that Obama and Biden are pretty much old news.
I don't know that the POW teflon will last anyway. It's already becoming a joke on the TDS/Colbert side, which means the late-night talkshows may not be far behind. Once that happens, I think the mainstream news outlets will stop allowing it to become a catch-all pass for stupidity.
That's the thing that gets me. The VP pick is, in a sense, the first real 'Presidential' decision that a candidate makes and it reflects on them in that light. This pick was pure campaign politics. He had other options that could have a serious case made that they were qualified or likely would be qualified to be President shortly after taking office. Some of them also had boobs. Some of them were women, too. This basically says that McCain really has no respect for either the office or the American people. That or he thinks he's immortal.
I personally don't think it is irresponsible to pick an inexperienced VP when the people have a choice. It is still an election. McCain hasn't imposed anything on anyone. It is up to the electorate to decide. My personal view is that experience is somewhat but not completely overrated. It's the reason most CEOs and politicians are insiders. I have zero experience but I know I'd make an awesome President.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Palin was selected last night because McCain couldn't have Lieberman.
That can't be true. I can't believe he would consider Lieberman other than in passing.
Dude, he just selected Sarah Palin. Lieberman is far more qualified and potentially saner as I'm sure she'll be Republican talking pointized on foreign policy.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
That's the thing that gets me. The VP pick is, in a sense, the first real 'Presidential' decision that a candidate makes and it reflects on them in that light. This pick was pure campaign politics. He had other options that could have a serious case made that they were qualified or likely would be qualified to be President shortly after taking office. Some of them also had boobs. Some of them were women, too. This basically says that McCain really has no respect for either the office or the American people. That or he thinks he's immortal.
That he made a purely political pick, one who isn't qualified to fulfill their constitutional duties and in doing so could endanger the entire country? I've been away from all media fro the last 24 hours, so I literally just got the news about McCain's pick. This is what you mean, right?
Have you not been paying attention to the republicans the last coupled decades? I say this not as exaggeration or chest beating demonization: the only consistent neocon philosophy is nothing that isn't worth selling out to achieve the greater goal of putting themselves in power because they know best. They aren't stupid, they just consider everything except having absolute control over their personal issue of choice irrelevant.
In McCain's case, anything is worth making sure Obama's foreign policy vision isn't followed and his is. It just happens to have taken a "after me, the deluge" form now.
Unless I'm missing something. I'm bone tired, and frankly surprised as hell she got the nod, what the lack of qualifications and publicly exposed scandal.
Palin was selected last night because McCain couldn't have Lieberman.
What the fuck?
The more I read and the more interviews I see with Palin from like a month ago, the more convinced I am that she had no real desire to be VP but was hustled into it by the GOP because they wanted someone with a vag. And now the MSM will probably rip her a new one because she's the first fresh meat they're been handed in months, if not the past year.
Holy God, if Palin actually manages to take some part of the radical pro-Hillary feminist vote away from the Democrats I will laugh and laugh and laugh.
Qualified as to not generalise an entire school of academic thought.
Okay, now see, when people here have said in the past "Oh God, that link made my brain hurt" I figure "ha ha, that is a metaphor, right? Because of how stupid the people featured in the link are?"
There is a physical dull pain in the back of my head. I think I have actually shrunk in size due to the mass retardedness of the comments in that forum. I couldn't make it through a single page of one of those psychotic pro-Palin threads before a silent scream of horror threatened to engulf me and my brain tried to blow out of the back of my head.
Posts
Well, there is also the matter of Ron Paul's Rally for the Republic going on at the same time as the RNC.
I don't think those folks are going to like her much for using Eminent Domain to build a Wal-Mart.
The experience argument is fine so long as you frame it right. Don't make it a 'who has more experience' or even a 'let's compare their experience' tack, make it a 'if she is qualified to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency doesn't that make all of McCain's attacks on Obama's experience hypocritical?' or 'does this pick symbolize a choice of good, experienced leadership in governance or good campaign politics?'
I guess.
My confusion over this choice is going to remain for several days I think.
See, here's the thing. Barack Obama just spent the last 18 months campaigning and making people comfortable with the idea of him as President. That was what the convention was largely about, but also the entire campaign showed that he got a ton of votes and he had to prove himself in debates with Biden and Richardson and Dodd and Edwards and especially Clinton. And he did that. And he's shown an interest in foreign policy his entire life. Primarily, Barack Obama is a foreign policy candidate. If Hillary Clinton had voted against the AUMF, she wins the nomination running away, I think we all accept that.
Sarah Palin had no opinion about the Iraq war a year ago. Two weeks ago, she wasn't familiar with the GOP talking points on Iraq. She is uninterested in foreign policy and is running for a position behind a 72 year old four time cancer survivor who was tortured and imprisoned in a Vietnamese prison for four and a half years. It is tremendously important that the person in McCain's VP role is seen as credible on national security matters. Sarah Palin is not.
The thing is, the Obama campaign could do nothing but run ads about how awesome puppies are, and the McCain campaign would still hammer and yammer away about how experience is the central issue of the campaign.
Pointing out that McCain thinks that someone with less experience than Obama is qualified to be President (that's a quote from the McCain campaign's official announcment, by the way) does more to defuse that argument than anything.
So she's the opposite in looks and... not in experience or capabilities?
Looks might not be the only reason Harriet Miers was rejected.
What if you win and then die? Does McCain really want to put the country into Palin's hands?
It's just . . .
Man what.
Actually, all of his ads here are about how Barack Obama will tax us all into poverty.
If he's dead, the what does he care who succeeds him?
That's what I think's going to happen.
Would be funny (read "depressing")
between the DNC and this choice I'm at the height in my feelings about this whole thing since I first read about the democratic candidates however many months ago. I'm not joking. Today was a gamble from someone who knew after probably wednesday night that he was not going to win with things as they were so he took a shot in the dark. after 18 hours or whatever it's been it looks to me, from every angle, like he's missed by a mile.
I just don't see how this helps him and I see so many ways that it hurts.
edit - I was imagining today the idea that in a year, reasonably, Palin could be president. Not that I wish illness or death on mccain. but good god!
Shit.
Obama/Adama
Palin transparently fails that test right now. John McCain is not serious about governing the country, Barack Obama with his selection of Joe Biden is. That's the attack.
I think it's more simple than that. McCain is doing what he thinks it'll take to win. All other priorities are secondary because if you can't win then game over. I doubt he actually worries about what kind of president Palin will be after he's dead. Seriously, if he's dead why would he care?
"John McCain doesn't care about America."
Highlighted the problem for you. McCain needed somebody with a vagina who would also help bring him the crazy conservative vote (that he's been having trouble attracting, having been portrayed as moderate. Rallying the base was a much bigger consideration than experience or attracting independents.
Oh god.
Poetic Justice.
Note the party identification and where she's from.
Baltar/Zarek '08!
I'm actually really upset.
How could he be this irresponsible?
He is the Smiler.
Holy God, if Palin actually manages to take some part of the radical pro-Hillary feminist vote away from the Democrats I will laugh and laugh and laugh.
Qualified as to not generalise an entire school of academic thought.
Unfortunately, he doesn't point out that it was all to win a Presidential election, thus showing that McCain is brazenly and dangerously putting politics above governance and above the future of this country.
We've already had almost eight years of someone who has done just that.
And Fox?
O'Reilly was skeptical, even. That should say something. He said that the experience argument is gone now.
McCain could forcibly sodomize an eight-year-old-boy and Fox would hail it as "a brave new foray into the youth vote."
So, you know.
I don't know that the POW teflon will last anyway. It's already becoming a joke on the TDS/Colbert side, which means the late-night talkshows may not be far behind. Once that happens, I think the mainstream news outlets will stop allowing it to become a catch-all pass for stupidity.
That can't be true. I can't believe he would consider Lieberman other than in passing.
That's the thing that gets me. The VP pick is, in a sense, the first real 'Presidential' decision that a candidate makes and it reflects on them in that light. This pick was pure campaign politics. He had other options that could have a serious case made that they were qualified or likely would be qualified to be President shortly after taking office. Some of them also had boobs. Some of them were women, too. This basically says that McCain really has no respect for either the office or the American people. That or he thinks he's immortal.
His judgment is worse that W's.
Yes, he would.
I personally don't think it is irresponsible to pick an inexperienced VP when the people have a choice. It is still an election. McCain hasn't imposed anything on anyone. It is up to the electorate to decide. My personal view is that experience is somewhat but not completely overrated. It's the reason most CEOs and politicians are insiders. I have zero experience but I know I'd make an awesome President.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Dude, he just selected Sarah Palin. Lieberman is far more qualified and potentially saner as I'm sure she'll be Republican talking pointized on foreign policy.
Hm...
Remember, this guy wanted to pick a fight with Russia and possibly start World War III over Georgia to look tough on national security.
That he made a purely political pick, one who isn't qualified to fulfill their constitutional duties and in doing so could endanger the entire country? I've been away from all media fro the last 24 hours, so I literally just got the news about McCain's pick. This is what you mean, right?
Have you not been paying attention to the republicans the last coupled decades? I say this not as exaggeration or chest beating demonization: the only consistent neocon philosophy is nothing that isn't worth selling out to achieve the greater goal of putting themselves in power because they know best. They aren't stupid, they just consider everything except having absolute control over their personal issue of choice irrelevant.
In McCain's case, anything is worth making sure Obama's foreign policy vision isn't followed and his is. It just happens to have taken a "after me, the deluge" form now.
Unless I'm missing something. I'm bone tired, and frankly surprised as hell she got the nod, what the lack of qualifications and publicly exposed scandal.
What the fuck?
The more I read and the more interviews I see with Palin from like a month ago, the more convinced I am that she had no real desire to be VP but was hustled into it by the GOP because they wanted someone with a vag. And now the MSM will probably rip her a new one because she's the first fresh meat they're been handed in months, if not the past year.
I kinda feel sorry for her.
Okay, now see, when people here have said in the past "Oh God, that link made my brain hurt" I figure "ha ha, that is a metaphor, right? Because of how stupid the people featured in the link are?"
There is a physical dull pain in the back of my head. I think I have actually shrunk in size due to the mass retardedness of the comments in that forum. I couldn't make it through a single page of one of those psychotic pro-Palin threads before a silent scream of horror threatened to engulf me and my brain tried to blow out of the back of my head.
Jesus christ.