The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

Chris Avellone is better than you

13

Posts

  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    BigDes wrote: »
    Didn't the novel give TNO a name?
    Steve.

    august on
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Skexis wrote: »
    I'm not explaining it away. Its in the game. And it makes perfect sense. The entire game makes a point of the Force controlling people in a way and forcing a destiny upon them so grumbling when people coincidentally meet with the Exile and afterwards are inexplicably attracted to him because of his power is kind of pointless.

    Well, by 'you' I meant the script, but whatever, as long as we're white knighting video games.

    It just strikes me as odd that everyone talks about how great the characters were and the most distinguishing thing about them was that they were easily influenced by the Exile. They effectively made being a Jedi a mundane thing, which was annoying to me. No more, no less.

    The ability to turn every non-droid character except Mandalore into a Jedi, I'll admit, kind of irritated me. I don't feel it was contrived at all, but I don't feel it was handled well either.

    It would have sat a lot better with me if you had only been able to pick one character to become your apprentice, and then training them had been a quest that took half the game to complete. As it was, it was too much, too briefly explored, too quickly. That it made being a Jedi a mundane thing is definitely a good way to describe it.
    There is a very important story reason for why the game works this way, but the overt revelation of it was in the Malachor sequence that got gutted due to lack of time.
    The Malachor sequence was supposed to involve your party of Jedi-in-training confronting Kreia, being captured, and then eventually saved (or not) by the Exile. Some of they may or may not have also turned on each other, and Atton and Sion may or may not have had an epic standoff that ended in a lot of lady exiles taking pitchforks to Avellone's house. IIRC, the reason these people were drawn to the exile is due to them all being blood relations of force users.* They were intended to be the next generation of Jedi now that the order had been broken by the sith/their own beliefs. Lack of free will due to the force etc, etc. I mean, it is the core theme of the story.

    *Atton is pretty obvious with his backstory, as are the Disciple and Visas. If you didn't know, it's strongly hinted in the game that Kreia is Arren Kae, Handmaiden's mother. I can't remember Mira's story offhand, so I don't know what's going on with her. Bao Dur kind of never had his story written down or something. To the best of my knowledge, there's pretty much nothing about him that didn't make it into the final game, which is strange due to the number of unanswered questions about him.

    Monger on
  • LamoidLamoid Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    august wrote: »
    BigDes wrote: »
    Didn't the novel give TNO a name?
    Steve.

    Sweet Christmas, August did you even read the book? It's not steve.
    It's Moe

    Lamoid on
    Laymoid.gif
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Monger wrote: »
    The ability to turn every non-droid character except Mandalore into a Jedi, I'll admit, kind of irritated me. I don't feel it was contrived at all, but I don't feel it was handled well either.

    It would have sat a lot better with me if you had only been able to pick one character to become your apprentice, and then training them had been a quest that took half the game to complete. As it was, it was too much, too briefly explored, too quickly. That it made being a Jedi a mundane thing is definitely a good way to describe it.
    There is a very important story reason for why the game works this way, but the overt revelation of it was in the Malachor sequence that got gutted due to lack of time.
    The Malachor sequence was supposed to involve your party of Jedi-in-training confronting Kreia, being captured, and then eventually saved (or not) by the Exile. Some of they may or may not have also turned on each other, and Atton and Sion may or may not have had an epic standoff that ended in a lot of lady exiles taking pitchforks to Avellone's house. IIRC, the reason these people were drawn to the exile is due to them all being blood relations of force users.* They were intended to be the next generation of Jedi now that the order had been broken by the sith/their own beliefs. Lack of free will due to the force etc, etc. I mean, it is the core theme of the story.

    *Atton is pretty obvious with his backstory, as are the Disciple and Visas. If you didn't know, it's strongly hinted in the game that Kreia is Arren Kae, Handmaiden's mother. I can't remember Mira's story offhand, so I don't know what's going on with her. Bao Dur kind of never had his story written down or something. To the best of my knowledge, there's pretty much nothing about him that didn't make it into the final game, which is strange due to the number of unanswered questions about him.

    I know. I love KOTOR II. But it still trivialised the act of becoming a Jedi; what could have been a stunning and touching climax for each character's arc was reduced to - hey, listen, can you hear the force? Cool. Okay, now you can force push dudes.

    I'm not necessarily saying this is really Obsidian's fault. They were on a terrifying rollercoaster of a schedule and plotting each character that deeply would have been overly ambitious. But still, it feels like a flaw, it feels like something was missing from those moments.

    Zetetic Elench on
    nemosig.png
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I know. I love KOTOR II. But it still trivialised the act of becoming a Jedi; what could have been a stunning and touching climax for each character's arc was reduced to - hey, listen, can you hear the force? Cool. Okay, now you can force push dudes.
    Oh, that. Yeah, that was pretty shitty.

    Monger on
  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Lamoid wrote: »
    august wrote: »
    BigDes wrote: »
    Didn't the novel give TNO a name?
    Steve.

    Sweet Christmas, August did you even read the book? It's not steve.
    It's Moe

    Both of you faggots, knock that shit off.
    I lol'd at both of them. :D<3

    Darmak on
    JtgVX0H.png
  • LacroixLacroix Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    He also looks at video game conceits and turns them on their head. For instance, Kreia(KOTORII), will lie to you, as your mentor figure. She is the type of character you instinctively assume is the "tutorial" character, giving you basically the way to play the game, then she just fucks your brain with a spiky dildo. Why? Because Chris Avellone said so. What are you going to do about it? Nothing, because you're still trying to grasp it.

    ??? But isn't the 'mentor turns on you' the plot of almost every movie that the mentor figure doesn't just up and die half way through?

    Lacroix on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    subedii wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    In Planescape torment, instead of saving the world, all you're trying to do is learn about yourself.
    you find that you tried to atone for your sins by becoming an immortal, but by a tragedy of your immortality, sometimes you lose your memory.

    Actually thats not quite what happens
    Your original incarnation was such an absolute cunt of an evil bastard when he was alive that he sought out Ravel in order to become immortal in order to avoid an eternity fighting in the Blood War, which was his inevitable fate. After Ravel ripped out his mortality he attempted to atone but every good deed was just a drop in the ocean of absolute bastard arseholeism that had become before it and made no difference
    Not to mention, the subsequent incarnations overall did at least as much bad as good.

    Though
    in the novel they play up the role of Fjull Fork-tongue, where it turns out that he was the leader of the Baatezu raiding party that was going to sack your village - but the nameless one offered his soul willingly to him in order to spare the others. Can't quite remember how but IIRC it didn't work and everyone died anyway, thus the nameless one works out how to cheat Fhjull the same way that Fhjull cheated him and thus loses his mortality.

    Honestly though, the original reason for losing your mortality is probably supposed to be a mystery
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be and will remain a mystery. The novel version was at best a different take on the story. Really it's probably best not to think of it in relation to what happened in the game. Even the death of a village doesn't seem to be as massive an event as his original injustice is made out to be in the game. He's pretty much told that all the evil he's ever committed over the course of his thousands of lifetimes is just a drop in the ocean compared to that one event that made him seek immortality.

    Long story short Chris Avellone didn't right the novel, it was fail and therefore doesn't exist.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • edited September 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • SceptreSceptre Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    You know, when I first played KOTOR 2, I never got any of my extra characters to become jedi.

    Upon hearing that I could, I was filled with rage.

    Sceptre on
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Sceptre wrote: »
    You know, when I first played KOTOR 2, I never got any of my extra characters to become jedi.

    Upon hearing that I could, I was filled with rage.

    What?!

    RGHAAAAAAGHGHGAAA!

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • edited September 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    glithert wrote: »
    Man Bioware and Obsidian should pair up again
    Every Bioware game is awesome fun and every Obsidian game is like playing a well-written novel

    Are you saying Bioware games have terrible cliches? How dare you.

    Pharezon on
    jkZziGc.png
  • edited September 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • PatboyXPatboyX Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    So I've never played Planetscape Torment and I keep seeing it come up with all these other games I know and love.
    Should I just accept this and play it? Assuming I can find it on half.com or wherever is it possible to run on xp?

    edit: I see it is on gametap. Should I take this to mean it will run?

    PatboyX on
    "lenny bruce is not afraid..."
    brush1rt1.jpg
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    PatboyX wrote: »
    So I've never played Planetscape Torment and I keep seeing it come up with all these other games I know and love.
    Should I just accept this and play it? Assuming I can find it on half.com or wherever is it possible to run on xp?

    edit: I see it is on gametap. Should I take this to mean it will run?
    You're not risking testicular cancer by trying it. So why not?

    Hoz on
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Ah, an Avellone appreciation thread. This is a positive development.

    Reminds me, I need to install Mask of the Betrayer... and, um, actually finish NWN2.

    Dracomicron on
  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah, me too. I'm still in the last dungeon of NWN 2. It's not that it's a *bad* story, or even that the core mechanics are poor, but the fucking dungeons drag on and on and on.

    Cherrn on
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • jagermeister73jagermeister73 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    thanks alot fuckers. Now I'm going to have to dust off the 0xbox to play Kotor2 proper like. The bc of it on the 360 is what stopped me from finishing it. The terrible slow downs and miscelaneous music problems distracted from the experience. (i do realise the game's story is rather broken but I was on the side of the fence that actually enjoyed the game) I started reading Scorchy's LP of it last night and my god it was gloriously written. Time to get my jedi on.

    jagermeister73 on
    jagermeister73.png
  • abotkinabotkin Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Cherrn wrote: »
    Yeah, me too. I'm still in the last dungeon of NWN 2. It's not that it's a *bad* story, or even that the core mechanics are poor, but the fucking dungeons drag on and on and on.

    This is why when I went back to re-play it to completion (having aborted several playthroughs 5 or 6 hours in previously), I used a character editor to bump my characters stats to ridiculous levels and dual wielded a sword that was in the code for what I can only assume was just play testing. (Something along the lines of the "Destructificator" or some such, had a +20 bonus along with pluses to str and con and ac, made blowing through the dungeons a snap)

    abotkin on
    steam_sig.png
  • PatboyXPatboyX Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Hoz wrote: »
    PatboyX wrote: »
    So I've never played Planetscape Torment and I keep seeing it come up with all these other games I know and love.
    Should I just accept this and play it? Assuming I can find it on half.com or wherever is it possible to run on xp?

    edit: I see it is on gametap. Should I take this to mean it will run?
    You're not risking testicular cancer by trying it. So why not?

    Lawsuit coming your way if I get it.
    So do I have to remain a member of gametap to keep playing the game? Or once I download can I play it always?
    It tends to take me awhile to finish/play games and since I already own a lot of the stuff on Gametap, 60-120 dollars for a game seems a bit much. (Although, half.com and amazon have it going for 60 on its own.)

    PatboyX on
    "lenny bruce is not afraid..."
    brush1rt1.jpg
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    It looks like modern day Mass Effect. It's funny how whenever these guys aren't doing a sequel to a Bioware game, it's still sort of a sequel to a Bioware game.

    They're like the yin to their yang in the North American RPG market.

    Which is funny because they write ten thousand times better than Bioware has.

    I wouldn't go that far, maybe 1.5 times better. Sure the latest Bioware games have been kinda bland shit. But have you played NWN2?

    Wow, is it terrible.

    I heartily disagree. NWN2 is one of the reasons I love Obsidian so much. I honestly don't know where all the hate for NWN2 comes from.

    Vanilla NWN2 I thought was pretty awful.
    NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer I thought was pretty awesome.

    I can't really think of that wide a disparity between the main title and the expansion with any other game.


    KOTOR2 had some neat writing and some terrible gameplay. Flurry + Speed + 2 blades = kill everyone in 1 attack, for the whole game.

    BubbaT on
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    BubbaT wrote: »
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    It looks like modern day Mass Effect. It's funny how whenever these guys aren't doing a sequel to a Bioware game, it's still sort of a sequel to a Bioware game.

    They're like the yin to their yang in the North American RPG market.

    Which is funny because they write ten thousand times better than Bioware has.

    I wouldn't go that far, maybe 1.5 times better. Sure the latest Bioware games have been kinda bland shit. But have you played NWN2?

    Wow, is it terrible.

    I heartily disagree. NWN2 is one of the reasons I love Obsidian so much. I honestly don't know where all the hate for NWN2 comes from.

    Vanilla NWN2 I thought was pretty awful.
    NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer I thought was pretty awesome.

    I can't really think of that wide a disparity between the main title and the expansion with any other game.



    KOTOR2 had some neat writing and some terrible gameplay. Flurry + Speed + 2 blades = kill everyone in 1 attack, for the whole game.
    Again, it seems like none of you ever played the original NWN

    Spoit on
    steam_sig.png
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Which expansion are you talking about, Underdark or Undrentide, that was massively different in quality from the main NWN1 title?

    Unless you're talking about the old America Online MMO, in which case no, I never played it.

    BubbaT on
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Spoit wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    tehkensai wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    It looks like modern day Mass Effect. It's funny how whenever these guys aren't doing a sequel to a Bioware game, it's still sort of a sequel to a Bioware game.

    They're like the yin to their yang in the North American RPG market.

    Which is funny because they write ten thousand times better than Bioware has.

    I wouldn't go that far, maybe 1.5 times better. Sure the latest Bioware games have been kinda bland shit. But have you played NWN2?

    Wow, is it terrible.

    I heartily disagree. NWN2 is one of the reasons I love Obsidian so much. I honestly don't know where all the hate for NWN2 comes from.

    Vanilla NWN2 I thought was pretty awful.
    NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer I thought was pretty awesome.

    I can't really think of that wide a disparity between the main title and the expansion with any other game.



    KOTOR2 had some neat writing and some terrible gameplay. Flurry + Speed + 2 blades = kill everyone in 1 attack, for the whole game.
    Again, it seems like none of you ever played the original NWN

    The original NWNs expansions were almost as poor as the original NWNs campaign.

    JohnDoe on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Which expansion are you talking about, Underdark or Undrentide, that was massively different in quality from the main NWN1 title?

    Either one, take your pick.
    JohnDoe wrote: »
    The original NWNs expansions were almost as poor as the original NWNs campaign.
    No.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I just dragged myself through the final dungeon in NWN 2. It is horrible. Not only do you frequently get interrupted when you rest, but you're swarmed by stupid monsters every 5 feet. They also take away one of your characters, and once you've traversed those goddamn corridors, you have to fight three consecutive bossfights, each more retarded than the last. The final boss also has three fucking phases, so the whole thing took me like 3 hours. I think I can say, with steadfast determination, that I will never touch this thing again.

    I actually really like parts of the campaign (like the whole trial), but on a gameplay level, it's just so horribly bloated and poorly executed that I get a headache from playing the goddamn thing. They should've cut, like, 10 hours of dungeon crawling; it would've greatly improved the game. And I like dungeon crawling, too.

    Onward to Mask of the Betrayer. Finally.

    Cherrn on
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    korodullin wrote: »
    JohnDoe wrote: »
    The original NWNs expansions were almost as poor as the original NWNs campaign.
    No.

    Yes.

    JohnDoe on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    In fact, while Chris is a very good writer, I have often felt what is keeping Obsidian from hitting it big time is that they don't write stories and dialogue that fits well in a game. I found NWN2 to be, dare I say it, a bit too wordy and focusing too much on the meta stuff outside of the gameplay.

    I know where they come from, their history as a company both there and elsewhere, so they certainly have the talent.

    But I mean I think Jason Jones said it best when he said stories in games are not there to be told, they are there to facilitate the experience. Which I why I have always felt that BioWare do such a good job in that respect. To put it simply, the experience, a culmination of story, gameplay and narrative coming together, outweighs the one that Obsidian deliver. They focus too much on story I think which is both good and bad.

    Kotor 2 (ignoring technical issues due to the rush job at the end) was less accomplished than Kotor 1. The planets were less interesting, (essentially a gradient of indoor space stations) and the characters were still just the same archetypes. Only now there is less adventure and more talking. The plot of Kotor 1 facilitated the game. You had to go to specific planets to find maps to win the day. It was simple but had depth.
    Kotot 2 has, honestly, a forgettable plot with a predictable twist and a bad ending (again, ignoring the issues and looking at it on potential).

    The character interactions were vastly improved, the party dynamic also inspired. But as a whole inferior I feel.

    Similar dispersions I cast at NWN2. For want of a better word, too 'wordy'.

    I think all signs point to their new game being a better mix.

    The_Scarab on
  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Which expansion are you talking about, Underdark or Undrentide, that was massively different in quality from the main NWN1 title?

    Unless you're talking about the old America Online MMO, in which case no, I never played it.

    I greatly enjoyed Underdark, actually. The characters were far more interesting and the plot much better paced.

    Undrentide was fun when I played it co-op with a bunch of friends, but I doubt I'd ever go through it single-player.

    vsove on
    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    In fact, while Chris is a very good writer, I have often felt what is keeping Obsidian from hitting it big time is that they don't write stories and dialogue that fits well in a game. I found NWN2 to be, dare I say it, a bit too wordy and focusing too much on the meta stuff outside of the gameplay.

    I know where they come from, their history as a company both there and elsewhere, so they certainly have the talent.

    But I mean I think Jason Jones said it best when he said stories in games are not there to be told, they are there to facilitate the experience. Which I why I have always felt that BioWare do such a good job in that respect. To put it simply, the experience, a culmination of story, gameplay and narrative coming together, outweighs the one that Obsidian deliver. They focus too much on story I think which is both good and bad.

    Kotor 2 (ignoring technical issues due to the rush job at the end) was less accomplished than Kotor 1. The planets were less interesting, (essentially a gradient of indoor space stations) and the characters were still just the same archetypes. Only now there is less adventure and more talking. The plot of Kotor 1 facilitated the game. You had to go to specific planets to find maps to win the day. It was simple but had depth.
    Kotot 2 has, honestly, a forgettable plot with a predictable twist and a bad ending (again, ignoring the issues and looking at it on potential).

    The character interactions were vastly improved, the party dynamic also inspired. But as a whole inferior I feel.

    Similar dispersions I cast at NWN2. For want of a better word, too 'wordy'.

    I think all signs point to their new game being a better mix.

    What is this?

    Pharezon on
    jkZziGc.png
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    LOL OPINIONS.

    Obsidian are underrated as writers, overrated as game developers.

    The_Scarab on
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Pharezon wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    In fact, while Chris is a very good writer, I have often felt what is keeping Obsidian from hitting it big time is that they don't write stories and dialogue that fits well in a game. I found NWN2 to be, dare I say it, a bit too wordy and focusing too much on the meta stuff outside of the gameplay.

    I know where they come from, their history as a company both there and elsewhere, so they certainly have the talent.

    But I mean I think Jason Jones said it best when he said stories in games are not there to be told, they are there to facilitate the experience. Which I why I have always felt that BioWare do such a good job in that respect. To put it simply, the experience, a culmination of story, gameplay and narrative coming together, outweighs the one that Obsidian deliver. They focus too much on story I think which is both good and bad.

    Kotor 2 (ignoring technical issues due to the rush job at the end) was less accomplished than Kotor 1. The planets were less interesting, (essentially a gradient of indoor space stations) and the characters were still just the same archetypes. Only now there is less adventure and more talking. The plot of Kotor 1 facilitated the game. You had to go to specific planets to find maps to win the day. It was simple but had depth.
    Kotot 2 has, honestly, a forgettable plot with a predictable twist and a bad ending (again, ignoring the issues and looking at it on potential).

    The character interactions were vastly improved, the party dynamic also inspired. But as a whole inferior I feel.

    Similar dispersions I cast at NWN2. For want of a better word, too 'wordy'.

    I think all signs point to their new game being a better mix.

    What is this?
    It is a post with less weevils per paragraph than is acceptable in this day and age.

    Monger on
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    Debatable.

    And by debatable, I mean just plain wrong.

    subedii on
  • Mei HikariMei Hikari Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    subedii wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    Debatable.

    And by debatable, I mean just plain wrong.

    I'm inclined to agree with the rest of his post though.

    Mei Hikari on
  • edited September 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    In fact, while Chris is a very good writer, I have often felt what is keeping Obsidian from hitting it big time is that they don't write stories and dialogue that fits well in a game. I found NWN2 to be, dare I say it, a bit too wordy and focusing too much on the meta stuff outside of the gameplay.

    I know where they come from, their history as a company both there and elsewhere, so they certainly have the talent.

    But I mean I think Jason Jones said it best when he said stories in games are not there to be told, they are there to facilitate the experience. Which I why I have always felt that BioWare do such a good job in that respect. To put it simply, the experience, a culmination of story, gameplay and narrative coming together, outweighs the one that Obsidian deliver. They focus too much on story I think which is both good and bad.

    Kotor 2 (ignoring technical issues due to the rush job at the end) was less accomplished than Kotor 1. The planets were less interesting, (essentially a gradient of indoor space stations) and the characters were still just the same archetypes. Only now there is less adventure and more talking. The plot of Kotor 1 facilitated the game. You had to go to specific planets to find maps to win the day. It was simple but had depth.
    Kotot 2 has, honestly, a forgettable plot with a predictable twist and a bad ending (again, ignoring the issues and looking at it on potential).

    The character interactions were vastly improved, the party dynamic also inspired. But as a whole inferior I feel.

    Similar dispersions I cast at NWN2. For want of a better word, too 'wordy'.

    I think all signs point to their new game being a better mix.

    Hahaha I think it's funny that almost all this stuff could be leveled at Mass Effected except the story bit.

    Pharezon on
    jkZziGc.png
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.
    Reading this again, I take issue with a couple things.
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    But I mean I think Jason Jones said it best when he said stories in games are not there to be told, they are there to facilitate the experience. Which I why I have always felt that BioWare do such a good job in that respect. To put it simply, the experience, a culmination of story, gameplay and narrative coming together, outweighs the one that Obsidian deliver. They focus too much on story I think which is both good and bad.
    To be fair, there is no singular definition of what a game experience is. Every game offers a unique experience based on how its pieces interact with each other, and as such every game must be evaluated based on the core experience it intends to provide. Playing Ninja Gaiden is a completely separate experience and intention of experience than playing Counter-Strike, which is a completely separate experience and intention than playing Shadow of the Colossus, which is a completely separate experience and intention than playing Rez, and so on. All are fantastic games, and all have difference balances among narrative, gameplay, challenge, atmosphere, and thematic intentions. I would argue that when a game tries to excel at each individual piece of the overall experience that it weakens the core, thematic experience that resonates with the player. That's a large part of my issue with Mass Effect (mostly the 360 version). It tries to excel at everything without all its legs moving towards the same end. You can ask yourself "what is the experience of Mass Effect?" and come up with a lot of answers based on which piece of the experience you are considering. It's a linear narrative, but the majority of the content is non-linear, story-irrelevant exploration that honestly makes little sense in context. It builds a relatively believable, realistic universe, then asks you to suspend your disbelief for the addendum "...but only you can save it!" The majority of the replay value is in exploring different classes, and experimenting with different skills in combat, with only nominal impact upon the narrative half of the game. It gives the player a TPS interface, yet it's nearly unplayable without heavy auto-aim assistance and it breaks most of the logic and tactics that make a shooter work. It's a good game, but it's scattered in its intention. Then you can ask yourself, say, "what is the experience of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.?" and everything pretty much comes down to "the zone is an oppressive fucking place" from the mechanics and interface to the world design and story.

    The experience of KotOR II is its story, and it embraces it fully. The game mechanics do reflect the universe in which the story takes place, and the dichotomy between the laws of that universe and what the player is told by Kreia is the heart of the story. It's cohesive in a subtle way that kind of gets lost beneath all the broken bits.
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Kotot 2 has, honestly, a forgettable plot with a predictable twist and a bad ending (again, ignoring the issues and looking at it on potential).
    Game didn't have a twist. At all. In fact, at the end (the broken one) it went out of its way to point out that it didn't have a twist. You even have an option in the dialogue to point it out earlier in the game, to which Kreia responds by pulling some BS about labels out of her ass. I'd almost be willing to say that if you thought it was a twist, you missed the point of the story entirely.

    Monger on
  • GreenleafGreenleaf Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Khavall wrote: »
    Consider that KOTORII had a 13 month development cycle, and still, despite the weak-assed ending, managed to be one of the best written games ever.

    It was an okay game and all, but seriously?
    It wasn't very well written. It got to a point where I would vomit out my ass if I heard some asshole say "Echo in the force" without explaining what that's supposed to actually fucking mean.

    Greenleaf on
  • VistiVisti Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mei Hikari wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Hi my name is Tim Schafer and I write better games than Chris Avellone.

    Debatable.

    And by debatable, I mean just plain wrong.

    I'm inclined to agree with the rest of his post though.


    I'm inclined to agree with this part, but they're both extraordinarily awesome. It's just a matter of style and taste at that point, they don't write anything near the same stuff.

    Visti on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sign In or Register to comment.