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[WAR] - Melee DPS: Schrödinger's Slayers and Choppas

OatsOats Registered User regular
edited November 2008 in MMO Extravaganza
So, since the masochists who hide behind six inches of steel and the hybrids who think they can out damage us have threads, I decided I'd work one up.

I have very little (up to 6 or so) medium-armour MDPS experience, but I've got a goodly amount of Witch Hunter/Elf experience. The careers which mirror each other are Witch Hunter/Witch Elf and Marauder/White Lion.

Classes:

Light armour: The TTK (time to kill) for light armour is slightly lower than that of medium, and was in fact the lowest there is at one point. In theory, we kill the fastest. We also die the fastest, unless you count sorceresses blowing themselves up.


Witch Hunter:

"These poor, simple folk - too fearful or too dull-witted to see the vulgarity and evil in their own midst. They wail and complain about my...uncompromising methods, but who among you can say that hanging half a village is too high a price to pay for the assurance that corruption has been exposed and destroyed this day?"
- Ernst Traugott, Templar Witch Hunter
A member of the Empire, this religious fanatic roots out heresy and blasphemers no matter the cost. Armed with a rapier, a flintlock pistol and six feet of style, this career is all about laying the hurt on people, often quickly. Around level 10 the Witch Hunter can train the ability Incognito, allowing for a rudimentary form of stealth. It's nowhere near as indefinite as stealth as seen in other mainstream MMOs, with a 30 second maximum duration and a 60 second cooldown. While using Incognito, the witch hunter's action point pool is being drained. The use of Incog does open up a few very nasty abilities, however. Each opener grants two Accusations (combo points) and reduces the cost of abilites by 50% for 10 seconds.
The major difference between Hunters and Elves are the self-buffs. Witch Hunters have different holy lotions which they can use to bless their bullets for extra effects when judging the enemy. It is possible for the Witch Hunter to snare a target if facing the target's back or side. The attack will build up even while moving.

Witch Elf:

“Do not desire the touch of a Maibd, a bride of Khaine, for her life is wholly given to the Lord of Murder, and he is a jealous god, unwilling to share his chosen ones.”
- Ruerl Blackhand, Lord of Har Ganeth
A sadistic, mostly naked Dark Elf (as if there is any other kind). Female only, but that's not going to stop me. The witch elves carry two short swords, notable mostly for how utterly painful they look. They aren't designed to leave clean wounds. The Witch elf analogue of the bullet blessing is the set of Kiss Abilities. A kiss is an instant attack which, if sucessful, adds a two minute buff to the Witch elf. They range from AP theft to healing reductions on the target to the theft of Initiative, making the enemy more succeptible to crits. Again, at level 10 the stealth ability becomes available, and Witch Elf stealth is as restrictive as Witch hunter stealth. It is possible for the Witch Elf to snare a target if facing the target's back or side. The attack will build up while moving.

Medium Armour: More durable and a slightly less damaging than light armour, mediums can wade through a decent amount of pain while dishing out generous portions.
White Lions:

"Do not be deceived by the rugged beauty of Chrace, for behind that serene mask lies a beast like none other. No, no I speak not of the War Lion but of its White Lion master whose will can bring such a beast to heel!"
- Kitharl Woodwalker, Huntsman of Chrace
A melee pet class, armed with a very large axe. What's not to like? Well, they're High Elves for starters. They look very proper as they bisect their foes. To close the gap (which is half the battle for any melee DPS) instead of stealth the White Lions get charge. Charge is not unlike Flee!, however it doesn't drain all of your action points on use. Charge is notably faster than flee. As a pet class, the White Lion gains a number of abilites which do not have a mirror with the class which plays similarly. These unique abilities are Trainings. Trainings buff both your pet and you, from increased toughness to the pet and a crit chance bonus for you, to strength bonuses for the pet and toughness for you. At level 40, the white lion will have a wide variety of tools, possibly the most fun being "Fetch". As you may have inferred, Fetch causes your pet to knock your target through the air towards you so that you may cut them in two. Another such useful ability is a misdirect, adding hate to an ally instead of yourself for PvE purposes.

Marauders:

"Say what you will of us. Call us heathens because we deny your weak pretender-God. Call us savages because we strike at you. But know this – it is we who are closest to the Ruinous Powers. We most favored of the Gods shall raid your lands, revel in your suffering and destroy you. Despair! For all that remains for you is the taste of Northern steel and the end of your world. Such is the will of the Gods."
- Hallbjörn, Norscan Marauder
A twist on the standard stance based fighter, a marauder needs only one weapon. So devoted were these warriors that they have been blessed by their god and master, Tzeentch, the God of Change. So, what does a dark blessing from a chaotic god of change entail? Mutation. The Marauder's mutations come in three basic flavours, brutal, savage and monstrous. Each has a talent tree devoted to it, so sadly, the average marauder will tend to stick with one stance. Each mutation provides a different buff while active, from weapon skill and initiative to toughness. The Marauder also has a knock-towards like the White lion, useful for getting that healer under the knife. Charge works in the exact same way, as well.

Oats on
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Posts

  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Aww, you're incentivized to stick with one kind of arm-raper as a Marauder? That's no fun.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Nothing in RvR has been as satisfying, for me, as completely turning the tide of a pitched battle by slaughtering three healers in short order with my Marauder with the help of a single Zealot as the pussy puggers tried to take down an IB.

    I'm itching to play a Marauder right now but I was sort of waiting to roll one with RL friends.

    Accualt on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Very little is more satisfying in RvR than taking apart healers as MDPS. My general strategy on my Witch Hunter went Burn Armour to getting the three bleeds on to a quick high damage judgement followed by the instant straight damage. If I had stayed behind them I'd pistol whip to stun them after the judgement.

    If they were healing someone who was being assist trained, they normally wouldn't even try to heal themselves until they were in the ground.

    Oats on
  • simsim Registered User
    edited September 2008
    holy lotions

    I did not know this, and now I won't be able to stop thinking about WHs 'buffing' themselves before coming to kill me. D=

    I think that the witch classes both get ranged snares at level 0.

    sim on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Ah, it used to be via tactics. I didn't play much during Open Beta.

    Oats on
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    During one Scenario last night there was a stand off, order had their IBs blocking the bridge with us Chosen at the other end. We are sort of back and forthing as their BWs just blast away on us from a very safe distance. I don't think we had a Sorc and we certainly didn't have a Magus. Things were not looking good for us. The BWs were outdamaging what our healers could do and we didn't have enough DPS to drop the IBs. I thought for certain we would lose the Fortress but then, like synchronized swimmers in a pool of blood two WE's pop up behind the BWs and just slaughter them. They then moved onto the healers, causing panic in the IBs who went back to defend which allowed the swarm of Blorcs and Chosen to surge across the bridge. It was beautiful.

    People talk about how healers can turn the tide of battle and, while true, without DPS the battles usually turn into standoffs. The respawn time in scenarios makes it so long pitched battles become never ending.

    Accualt on
  • MunacraMunacra Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Oats wrote: »
    Ah, it used to be via tactics. I didn't play much during Open Beta.

    Snap Shot for witch hunters is the ranged snare

    Munacra on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah, it used to be one of the bullet blessings. It used snare by 40% and do a spirit damage DoT. There was also a tactic which would change Snap Shot to do what it does now.

    Oats on
  • MunacraMunacra Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Accualt wrote: »
    During one Scenario last night there was a stand off, order had their IBs blocking the bridge with us Chosen at the other end. We are sort of back and forthing as their BWs just blast away on us from a very safe distance. I don't think we had a Sorc and we certainly didn't have a Magus. Things were not looking good for us. The BWs were outdamaging what our healers could do and we didn't have enough DPS to drop the IBs. I thought for certain we would lose the Fortress but then, like synchronized swimmers in a pool of blood two WE's pop up behind the BWs and just slaughter them. They then moved onto the healers, causing panic in the IBs who went back to defend which allowed the swarm of Blorcs and Chosen to surge across the bridge. It was beautiful.

    People talk about how healers can turn the tide of battle and, while true, without DPS the battles usually turn into standoffs. The respawn time in scenarios makes it so long pitched battles become never ending.

    Playing Melee DPS is a lot of fun in this game because you always feel like a guerrilla.

    Munacra on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Munacra wrote: »
    Accualt wrote: »
    During one Scenario last night there was a stand off, order had their IBs blocking the bridge with us Chosen at the other end. We are sort of back and forthing as their BWs just blast away on us from a very safe distance. I don't think we had a Sorc and we certainly didn't have a Magus. Things were not looking good for us. The BWs were outdamaging what our healers could do and we didn't have enough DPS to drop the IBs. I thought for certain we would lose the Fortress but then, like synchronized swimmers in a pool of blood two WE's pop up behind the BWs and just slaughter them. They then moved onto the healers, causing panic in the IBs who went back to defend which allowed the swarm of Blorcs and Chosen to surge across the bridge. It was beautiful.

    People talk about how healers can turn the tide of battle and, while true, without DPS the battles usually turn into standoffs. The respawn time in scenarios makes it so long pitched battles become never ending.

    Playing Melee DPS is a lot of fun in this game because you always feel like a guerrilla.

    I like to look at it like this: Healers can sway the course of an entire battle. I can remove healers. Therefore I can sway the course of an entire battle.

    Oats on
  • Tumbler 360Tumbler 360 Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I played a Marauder during the open beta last week and really enjoyed it. I found they work best when you sneak in, running into a group head on is futile with this class but it really is satisfying when you get the drop on an archer or a healer and just go to town on them. I wish I had a rooting hit though. I have something that slows them down but being able to stick them to the ground and smash them would be so much fun!

    This class is fun. I wish I could go stealth though and truly sneak up on people.

    My only complaint is the targeting enemies when I'm in a big battle. It can be very frustrating when you are running up to someone and just want to slash away only to find tab targeted the wrong guy.

    Maybe there is a key to target closest enemy I haven't been using, if not that key would be most helpful.

    Tumbler 360 on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    N I believe is closest enemy. I could be wrong, though.

    Oats on
  • JebuJebu Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm actually kind of surprised at how few people want to play Witch Elves. Maybe it's the whole half-naked elf girl thing? I don't know, but I enjoyed the hell out of it in Beta and I'll be playing it in the game since I'll be with Destruction. Being able to rip through healers and having people freak out when you appear behind them is just too good.

    Jebu on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 2008
    I found it weird that I could easily solo some Witch Hunters, but others could kick my ass. Maybe the latter were actually using their morale.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • ringswraithringswraith Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Um... Isn't the mirror for Marauder the Shadow Warrior, mechanics-wise?

    White Lion's mirror is the Squig Herder.

    ringswraith on
  • SifakaSifaka Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Um... Isn't the mirror for Marauder the Shadow Warrior, mechanics-wise?

    White Lion's mirror is the Squig Herder.

    It depends on if you count the pet as the mirror or fighting style (range/melee). In the end neither one is a good mirror and this could lead to some RvR imbalance.

    Sifaka on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    In terms of mirroring abilities and playstyles, the White Lion and Marauder have more in common.

    Oats on
  • SaphierSaphier Aka Errant Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Don't forget the melee shadow warriors!

    ...


    What?

    Saphier on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Or the melee squiggles.

    However, both people who spec this way can make their own thread.

    Oats on
  • AkiraAkira Registered User
    edited September 2008
    The Marauder, Squig Hunter, White Lion and Shadow Warrior share mechanics so it is less of a straightforward mirror compared to the other classes.

    Melee + pet = White Lion
    Melee + stances = Marauder
    Ranged + pet = Squig Herder
    Ranged + stances = Shadow Warrior

    is the easiest way to look at it but abilities are shared too inconsistently to really call any of them definite mirrors.

    Akira on
    akira.gif
  • risumonrisumon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I have decided on playing a marauder for my main. Because of this I did not play one at all during OB, I hope this was not a mistake. AE melee damage just sounds too much fun, now I just need to make friends with some healers so I can trule reap havoc.

    risumon on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • LednehLedneh shinesquawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rather than a mirror the physical medium-armor DPSes act as a kind of table or cross.
            |  Pet		Stance
    ------------------------------
    Range  |  Squig	Shadow
            |
    Melee  |  Lion	Marauder
    

    (edit) hate you all

    Ledneh on
    Kadith wrote: »
    how do i get off [the bus], do i just start screaming
    well that'll get me off at least.
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I think that sharing 95% of the functions of your abilities with another class makes you a closer mirror than having a pet or a stance you never shift out of.

    Oats on
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Copy pasted from the forums
    The Witch Elf class is a tight-rope balancing act. If done correctly its awesome but if done incorrectly its easy to fall to your death. This is why the forums are clouded with "Witch-Elves suck" type posts. Its not because we are bad its because we are difficult to play compared to a tank or ranged DPS class. We are the kings of point-blank damage and for that title we trade in our survivability.

    What does this mean? It means you need to learn to pick your fights.

    A couple tips:

    1) You should never be the first person rushing into a group of opponents. Most PUG groups of people will basically attack the first thing that they see. Let someone else rush into the fray first so that they get tab targeted. This will allow you to pop out and start picking people off without the hassle of being immediately tab targeted.

    2) Let your tank do his job. I know we are melee and play like a lightly armored tank. We're not tanks. We don't take damage well. If you play like you have survivability you wont survive. If you have a tank next to you let him carry the flag in Scenario's...I know you want to be the guy to get the glory and can't resist the temptation to grab the flag but please...let the tank do his job. Trying to get away? Use your tank as a pick, use the collision system, and have him use his snare as you run around him so that the chaser can no longer keep up.

    3) Learn to play defense sometimes. Too often the urge to do nothing but rush in and try to lay waste to the enemies line overcomes rational thought. Sometimes the best thing you can do is stand back and protect your clothies. The tanks are too busy pushing the front lines forward. The ranged DPS are too busy...well...doing the majority of the fighting in mass RvR. The healers are busy keeping those front tanks alive. Keep an eye out on your healers and murder anyone that would dare to try to actually hurt one of them.

    4) Sometimes just being annoying is better than getting into a fight. Once again the urge to chase a kill often clouds a persons judgement. Too many times have I seen a Witch-Elf/Hunter attack a tank with the flag and get owned. In this situation you're probably better off standing at a distance and just lobbing throwing daggers to keep the flag runner snared 100% of the time. In the big scheme of things keeping a flag bearer snared 100% of the time, thus giving your team time to catch up to him, is much more valuable than trying to solo that guy.

    5) If you've lost an opportunity suck it up and get out. Too many times I'll see someone try to down a Brightwizard and they are unable to kill him before a heal lands (obviously this is pre-heal reduction abilities). At this point you have two options. 1) Switch to the Healer or 2) Use your abilities to get away and fight another day. I hate when people stay on the same target just because. If its getting healed you arent going to kill it. Get over it and move along. You're just wasting time.

    6) Personal Preference Tip...bind your Q and E keys to stealth and throw. I love having my E button be my stealth button and Q be my throwing dagger button. I think the reason so many people have trouble chasing someone and snaring them is because of button positioning so make it a button that is quickly accessible while moving/strafing etc. Same with stealth it should be quickly accessible.


    also a witch elf blog http://witchelf.blogspot.com/

    tyrannus on
  • Super_HappySuper_Happy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm interested in seeing the stats broken down and the formulas and whatnot so I can start obsessing about itemization, renown stat packs and so on. Things like how big a part of your DPS (or DPM on tanks) your “white” auto attack damage accounts for.

    Super_Happy on
  • AkiraAkira Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I'm interested in seeing the stats broken down and the formulas and whatnot so I can start obsessing about itemization, renown stat packs and so on. Things like how big a part of your DPS (or DPM on tanks) your “white” auto attack damage accounts for.

    Stats broken down

    Akira on
    akira.gif
  • DondumsDondums Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I played a Marauder during PW+/OB and I enjoyed him quite a bit; maybe I got a bit too gung-ho and overzealous trying to finish off runners but I found myself dead a bit too often for my liking. Plus, those brutish Chaos behemoths just don't suit my taste. Elves more closely resemble my 10-year old child muscle frame in the real life, and thus I play them instead.

    But one of my alts will likely be a Witch Elf. Possibly.

    Dondums on
    internet
  • KajustaKajusta Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I loved my Witch Hunter and I plan on playing one as my main come tomorrow.

    Once you hit level 10 shit changes so much.

    Kajusta on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XBL
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    yeah, i want a witch elf now after watching a few videos.

    tyrannus on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I need to watch some of those. I have no idea how well stealth works and how long it may take to maneuver yourself for the kill.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    last post of the first page, fatty.

    tyrannus on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    tyrannus wrote: »
    last post of the first page, fatty.

    Oh, that thing where I can hardly tell what's going on.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • MunacraMunacra Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Septus wrote: »
    tyrannus wrote: »
    last post of the first page, fatty.

    Oh, that thing where I can hardly tell what's going on.

    An asskicking is what is going on.

    Munacra on
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Anybody have comments on the White Lion?

    admanb on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Accualt loved them.

    Oats on
  • War BastardWar Bastard Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Kajusta wrote: »
    I loved my Witch Hunter and I plan on playing one as my main come tomorrow.

    Once you hit level 10 shit changes so much.

    I only got my WH to level 8 in OB but I still had a blast. My brother went Archmage and was my chum in scenarios. It is insane how much your survivability improves when a healer looks after you, suddenly our biggest weakness is negated by a few HOT's and some support.

    I would have loved to have played more of the ORVR with my bro to see how our pairing would fit in the zerg. Even still I'm pretty sure that a WH will be my main and my bro with stay with Archmage.

    War Bastard on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    It was a stick.
  • Super_HappySuper_Happy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    admanb wrote: »
    Anybody have comments on the White Lion?

    I played one to Rank 10 in the OB and really liked it. My only problems involved the pet. First is that your snare is a pet skill, and some times that fucking lion is not where you want him to be. And we all know how key snaring is for MDPS. I found that this caused me to go after other MDPS more then RDPS/Healers that will try and run. Also, the lion is a unruly beast, sometimes I found that I had to spam pet commands to get it to obey (some responsiveness issues). Also, for RvR put the lion on passive or you will never see the thing, as it will be on the other side of the map, chasing some random dude. However that's all small stuff and it did not stop me from having a blast RvRing with the WL. If you try one, don't give up until you hit R10, charge really makes a huge difference in how the class plays.

    P.S. I'd love to hear some someone that played a WL high enough to get "pounce". That skill just sounds flat out awesome.

    Super_Happy on
  • A-PuckA-Puck Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    admanb wrote: »
    Anybody have comments on the White Lion?

    I loved this class. Almost as much fun to play as a squigg herder with the added benefit of being effective in combat and scenarios. When I make an order alt I'll be making one of these.

    They work pretty much like you'd think they work. PvE the lion tanks, RvR the lion annoys. And by annoys I mean seriously annoys. That healer in the back? The one with easily set back spells that is keeping that chosen on his feat? Sic your lion on him.

    Your lion won't kill him, but it will disrupt those incoming heals quite a bit.

    A-Puck on
    Soon... soon I will install you, my precious.
  • HompHomp Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Got a Rank 16 White Lion right now, and I'm having a blast with him. Most people wearing medium armor and light armor are good targets for the class. With the pet to harass and such, it's a lot of fun. And you do quite a bit of damage.

    I seem to run out of AP really fast, but I guess that's because I'm mashing my attack buttons as fast as possible. Probably should stop that.

    Homp on
    chosen7171-1.gif
  • AvynteAvynte Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Wow, after watching those WE videos they make me really want to roll one. That guy just absolutely demolishes the couple healers and bright wizards he goes after, even in the t1 video.

    I had tried one during the first PW and loved the mechanics, but only got her up to 7/7, so I didn't have any of the really key abilities yet and it was very frustrating spending all this time stalking a 10/? BW, then getting demolished. Guess I ought to give it another try now come release.

    Why do DE have to have so many awesome classes that I love...

    At least if the WE doesn't end up my main, she'll prolly have my alt spot in TSM next to the DoK.

    Avynte on
    ECOED.jpg
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