The American Presidency: A thread about the presidential elections? Maybe!

Elki

Words you are unlikely to see me post in the next pages of this thread: "X is off-topic," because I'm just going to warn you here. This thread is a bitch to keep up with and mod when it's on-topic, and impossible when people use it as a dumping ground for any political news story. If it's not directly related to Obama v. McCain don't post it.

Think it's really important, and still want to post it?





AND NO BLUE DOTTING!



OK? Glad we got that cleared up.

The Economist.com wrote:

IN THESE confusing times, thank God (actually, thank Irv) for Bill Kristol. Where other men see but through a glass darkly, he sees light. A time like this requires strong, decisive leadership. The president failed. Hank Paulson failed. Nancy Pelosi failed. To whom should we turn? "There is someone," Mr Kristol fils explains, "who might be able to save the economy—and incidentally the Republican party: John McCain." All he needs to do is find a phone booth, a blue leotard and a red cape, and just...Sorry, wrong fantasy. Bill wants him to suspend his campaign. That is not a joke.

He attaches a press release from Mr McCain's campaign blaming Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi. Mr Obama, you see, phoned it in (something Mr McCain did, literally) instead of leading from the front, like Mr McCain. But McCain could not even corral the votes of his own party, as its de facto leader and presidential nominee. Look, both candidates offered tepid support to the plan for political reasons—in that they were hardly alone. And Ms Pelosi's speech should have been more conciliatory in tone. But the notion that some Republican House members would have voted for the bill—that is: believed that the country was in such dire financial straits that they were willing to upend the free market and spend $700 billion to bail out failing banks—but did not because they disliked Ms Pelosi's tone is shameful. Politicians often give political speeches, it goes with the territory.

Both sides are using each other as cover; both sides know the bailout is a necessary but deeply unpopular evil. Anyone holding their breath waiting for strong leadership from either Mr Obama or Mr McCain will surely turn blue and collapse in short order. Many things must happen before a satisfactory bill is passed. Mr McCain re-suspending a campaign that he never really suspended in the first place is not one of them.

The Economist.com wrote:

IT IS growing disturbingly clear that if Sam Cooke had sung about Sarah Palin, that song would have lasted twelve days. Jeffrey Goldberg flags the purest example I've ever seen of the talking point in action. Katie Couric asked Sarah Palin, "What happens if the goal of democracy doesn't produce the desired outcome? In Gaza, the US pushed hard for elections and Hamas won."

And this was her reply:

Yeah, well especially in that region, though, we have to protect those who do seek democracy and support those who seek protections for the people who live there. What we're seeing in the last couple of days here in New York is a President of Iran, Ahmadinejad, who would come on our soil and express such disdain for one of our closest allies and friends, Israel ... and we're hearing the evil that he speaks and if hearing him doesn't allow Americans to commit more solidly to protecting the friends and allies that we need, especially there in the Mideast, then nothing will.

Notice no mention whatsoever of Gaza or Hamas, and no sensible discussion of the policy of democracy promotion. Not one cogent sentence.

What seems to have happened instead is that she heard "Gaza" or "Hamas", one of which tripped a circuit reading "Israel" in her brain. That circuit started a module entitled "Defend Israel; bash Iran." And so it went; just as planned, except that I'm not even sure this answer would have passed the Turing Test.

This is why all the talk about "lowering expectations" in advance of the debate is a little ridiculous. Mrs Palin may do well and she may do poorly, but whatever happens, interviews like this aren't just going to go away.

The Economist.com wrote:

HERE'S the long and short of it for John McCain: Barack Obama has as large a lead in the election as he's held all year. But there is much less time left on the clock than there was during other Obama periods of strength, such as in February, mid-June or immediately following the Democratic convention. This is a very difficult combination of circumstances for him.

So says Nate Silver, backed up by numerous polls. The recent focus on the economy has certainly helped Mr Obama, as it would any Democratic candidate. But voters seem to have also grown more comfortable with the idea of a President Obama, while they have grown much more ill at ease with the erratic Mr McCain and his increasingly unimpressive running mate, Sarah Palin. That dynamic is likely to have a longer lifespan.

The troubling thing for Mr McCain is that he has few opportunities left to make up ground. The foreign-policy debate was supposed to be one of those opportunities, but polls show Mr Obama got the better of him. At the vice-presidential debate on Thursday, the best hope for Republicans is that Mrs Palin will stabilise the race by turning in an adequate performance. But then what? The remaining presidential debates are likely to be ho-hum affairs in which each candidate sketches out positions that the electorate is already quite familiar with. If Mr McCain overreaches, he may come off looking more erratic (or like this).

Past candidates have also found it difficult to make up ground in the last month of a presidential campaign. Starting in October, presidential tracking polls become much more accurate at predicting the winner. As John Judis points out, "Since 1960, Gallup’s tracking poll registered the winner in the popular vote (including Al Gore in 2000), eleven of twelve times." So it would seem that much as events have conspired in Mr Obama's favour these past two weeks—by putting the focus on the economy—Mr McCain needs a game-changing event of his own. In many ways, he is no longer in control of his own political destiny.

syndalis

And another thread begins anew.

Fleck0

All he'd really have to do to combat that though would be to actually look at her when she's talking.

No doubt Mccain's people have taken notice of the press and will coach Palin on this as well, I'm expecting some Moose-in-headlights stares constantly directed towards Biden this Thursday

Flippy_D

Oh god.

I get tingly about how badly this is going to go for Palin. I mean she messed up an explanatory interview, with McCain next to her, after he had already made her defense for her.

.

Bionic Monkey

Man, I just really have no idea what to expect from the debate Thursday. I mean, all the possible outcomes are varying levels of trainwrecks, but what level?

Jragghen

Next released portion of the Couric Interview

Lord Yod

It depresses me that a candidate for VP actually needs a chaperon to do a fucking interview.

syndalis

Lord Yod wrote: »

It depresses me that a candidate for VP actually needs a chaperon to do a fucking interview.

Y'know, I never considered that until just now regarding this video... this is the proof that she is not trusted by McCain; it's plain and simple and impossible to ignore; he jumped in on her own questions when they weren't going the right way.

This is fucking despicable.

RMS Oceanic

This article claims that, by using last week's grandstanding in regards to the bailout plan to link himself closely as the one that got it negotiated, McCain has hurt himself now that it has fallen through.

The bill's defeat can hardly be blamed on the GOP presidential nominee, and it's possible that a revised measure might succeed. But by his own actions last week, McCain tied himself far more tightly to the failed bill than did his Democratic opponent, Barack Obama.

McCain argues that action is better than inaction in times of crises. His efforts, however, were aimed squarely at House Republicans, the group mainly responsible for the bill's demise, which triggered a record drop of nearly 800 points in the stock market, the most ever for a single day.

If Congress' impasse leads to a credit crisis, "it's not going to be good for McCain," said veteran Republican consultant John Feehery.

Another prominent Republican strategist, who would talk only on background to avoid antagonizing associates, said the vote was trouble for McCain.

As recently as Monday morning, only minutes before the House's stunning vote, McCain suggested that his call for a White House summit meeting Thursday, and his visit with unhappy House Republicans that preceded it, had helped clear the way for the bill's passage.

"I went to Washington last week to make sure that the taxpayers of Ohio and across this great country were not left footing the bill for mistakes made on Wall Street and in Washington," he told a crowd in Columbus, Ohio. "Some people have criticized my decision, but I will never, ever be a president who sits on the sidelines when this country faces a crisis."

On NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday, top adviser Steve Schmidt said McCain managed "to help bring all of the parties to the table, including the House Republicans, whose votes were needed to pass this."

The comment suggested that McCain took responsibility for rounding up the needed GOP votes, "and that was probably a stupid thing for him to promise to do," said Democratic adviser Jennifer Palmieri.

On Monday, only 65 of the House's 199 Republicans went along. The defeat dealt a major blow to President Bush and threw another twist into a presidential campaign already drawing record numbers of Americans for rallies and televised events.

In a sign of the difficulty he faces, McCain made no direct comment on the House vote for about four hours. His campaign initially issued a sharply worded statement by economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin, who blamed Obama and other Democrats.

Just before House members voted, he said, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., "gave a strongly worded partisan speech and poisoned the outcome." House Democrats already had denounced that argument, saying it suggested GOP lawmakers based a crucial vote on pique rather than conviction.

A few hours later, a grim-faced McCain read a statement to reporters in Iowa. "I was hopeful that the improved rescue plan would have had the votes needed to pass," he said. "I call on Congress to get back, obviously, immediately to address this crisis."

Obama "and his allies in Congress infused unnecessary partisanship into the process," McCain said, adding: "Now is not the time to fix the blame; it's time to fix the problem."

Obama, of course, does face risks in the financial and political meltdown, and his party is hardly blameless for the legislation's collapse Monday. From the start, however, Obama kept more distance from the infighting, and questioned the wisdom of injecting presidential politics directly into the negotiating mix, as McCain did with the White House meeting that Obama had little choice but to attend.

Obama gave the legislative package tepid support Sunday. If several Democratic-backed additions stayed in it, he said on CBS' "Face the Nation," "my inclination would be to vote for it, understanding I'm not happy about it."

On Monday, many of the House Democrats who opposed the bill were blacks, who rank among Obama's strongest supporters. Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., was one. "I do not believe that we have explored or exhausted all possible options to directly ease the pressure on financial markets without causing an undue burden to taxpayers," he said.

During last week's negotiations, Obama and many other congressional Democrats called for several changes to the bailout plan, which the Bush administration had unveiled days earlier. They included efforts to prevent further home foreclosures, greater oversight of the plan and limits on severance packages for executives leaving companies helped by the plan.

All those items were added to some extent, although Obama's aloofness limited his ability to claim credit.

McCain's involvement was more direct, complicated and difficult to assess. After temporarily suspending his campaign last week, and just before attending the White House meeting, he met with House Republicans in the Capitol. He heard loud complaints about the bailout proposal's costs, structure and details.

When the White House session took place, McCain surprised several at the table by having little to say other than that the House Republicans' unhappiness needed attention.

Those House members forced several changes in the package on Saturday, and McCain seemed satisfied, if not enthusiastic.

"This is something that all of us will swallow hard and go forward with," he said Sunday.

He turned out to be wrong on Monday. Now his campaign must scramble to convince a worried electorate and a deeply divided party that he is the man to lead them to better times.

Fleck0

That clip above is great. Go Couric, way to be a journalist with actual balls!

Flippy_D

Bionic Monkey wrote: »

Man, I just really have no idea what to expect from the debate Thursday. I mean, all the possible outcomes are varying levels of trainwrecks, but what level?

Cervetus

I think Couric is actually plain sick of Palin and McCain by now, perhaps even outright hates them. Not that I'm complaining, because it's not like she's being unfair and I think television interviews could stand to be tougher in general.

Also, that was a beautiful TF2 joke.

Gigaton

The more and more I watch her interviews, the anticipation for the VP debates rises. I really can't see how this can turn out in her favor against an "average" orator, let alone Joe frickin' Biden.

Spoit

What about Biden/Palin, are we allowed to talk about them too?

JAEF

A little over a month left. I want this to be over if only so that I don't have to listen to coworkers parrot sound bytes from network news. Having a conversation about politics with them is like trying to prepare a gourmet dinner from vending machine food.

Joe Chemo

The Economist brings up a good point: if you were discussing foreign policy with Sarah Palin via instant messenger, would she pass the Turing test?

Joe Chemo

Gigaton wrote: »

The more and more I watch her interviews, the anticipation for the VP debates rises. I really can't see how this can turn out in her favor against an "average" orator, let alone Joe frickin' Biden.

The scary thing is -- there's a LOT of anticipation for the VP debates. I'm betting you'll see a bigger audience for them than for the first presidential debates (only 50 million).

No pressure.

Kagera

Man if this is a fake out to lower expectations for her so that when she appears half-competent people go "OMG PALIN PULLED IT OFF!" it will be the biggest and unlikeliest political comeback in history.

Elki

Jragghen wrote: »

Next released portion of the Couric Interview

NRO wrote:

... this video looks like Sarah Palin went back to the principal's office with her dad.

Kagera

"Is that a pizza place?"

I don't understand that.

Flippy_D

Kagera doesn't understand!

/McCain

Kagera

John McCain is out of touch with humor.

/Kagera

Schrodinger

Elki wrote: »

Words you are unlikely to see me post in the next pages of this thread: "X is off-topic," because I'm just going to warn you here. This thread is a bitch to keep up with and mod when it's on-topic, and impossible when people use it as a dumping ground for any political news story. If it's not directly related to Obama v. McCain don't post it.

So we're not allowed to talk about third party presidential candidates?

Kagera

Schrodinger wrote: »

Elki wrote: »

Words you are unlikely to see me post in the next pages of this thread: "X is off-topic," because I'm just going to warn you here. This thread is a bitch to keep up with and mod when it's on-topic, and impossible when people use it as a dumping ground for any political news story. If it's not directly related to Obama v. McCain don't post it.

So we're not allowed to talk about third party presidential candidates?

As third party candidates may influence the election by taking votes away from Obama/McCain I think it would be a valid topic.

Barcardi

there was a scary thing on npr today about voters still placeing votes based on dead babies in hospitals somehow being more important than dead soldiers. it has yet to come to that sort of thing... so far anyhow.

Taramoor

Kagera wrote: »

Man if this is a fake out to lower expectations for her so that when she appears half-competent people go "OMG PALIN PULLED IT OFF!" it will be the biggest and unlikeliest political comeback in history.

If this turns out to be some kind of epic-level rope-a-dope with Sarah Palin blasting out of the gate and holding her own across the table from Joe Biden I have no idea how I'll react but I'm pretty sure there will be wide-eyed amazement.

Barcardi

its going to be a she sucks so everyone in middle america pity's her for standen' up against the man... kind of thing

Bad Kitty

Are these Couric-Palin interviews all the same day? How long ago were they done?

The more of Palin I see the more incredulous I find people's support for her. I have a very good friend who's a pro-life abstinence-only 7th day adventist and she loves Palin. When the talk of politics comes up I try to not eviscerate Palin, but lately it's getting harder to not criticize her and the McCain campaign.

Honestly I find the concept of people voting for Sarah Palin horrifying. She doesn't so much represent conservatism as she does absolutism, especially in regards to private sexual matters and foreign policy. I don't know, it seems...unAmerican.

Crimson King

Bad Kitty wrote: »

Are these Couric-Palin interviews all the same day? How long ago were they done?

The more of Palin I see the more incredulous I find people's support for her. I have a very good friend who's a pro-life abstinence-only 7th day adventist and she loves Palin. When the talk of politics comes up I try to not eviscerate Palin, but lately it's getting harder to not criticize her and the McCain campaign.

Honestly I find the concept of people voting for Sarah Palin horrifying. She doesn't so much represent conservatism as she does absolutism, especially in regards to private sexual matters and foreign policy.

Single-issue voters are silly. How's your friend feel about going to war with everybody there is?

Just_Bri_Thanks

Taramoor wrote: »

Kagera wrote: »

Man if this is a fake out to lower expectations for her so that when she appears half-competent people go "OMG PALIN PULLED IT OFF!" it will be the biggest and unlikeliest political comeback in history.

If this turns out to be some kind of epic-level rope-a-dope with Sarah Palin blasting out of the gate and holding her own across the table from Joe Biden I have no idea how I'll react but I'm pretty sure there will be wide-eyed amazement.

"The operation was a success, but the patient died."

There are some tactics it is just too damaging to use.

clownfood

Bad Kitty wrote: »

Are these Couric-Palin interviews all the same day? How long ago were they done?

The more of Palin I see the more incredulous I find people's support for her. I have a very good friend who's a pro-life abstinence-only 7th day adventist and she loves Palin. When the talk of politics comes up I try to not eviscerate Palin, but lately it's getting harder to not criticize her and the McCain campaign.

Honestly I find the concept of people voting for Sarah Palin horrifying. She doesn't so much represent conservatism as she does absolutism, especially in regards to private sexual matters and foreign policy. I don't know, it seems...unAmerican.

After everything that Palin has been through, the scrutinizing and the exposure...do you think that this might be the slow, very public death of Palin's political career. Will Alaskans take her back with open arms for as much as she has embarrassed herself?

Hachface

I can't even watch Palin on television anymore. See, I easily get embarrassed for other people. I couldn't even watch Doug when I was little because I couldn't stand watching Doug make a fool of himself in front of Patty Mayonnaise. During the Biden-Palin interview I'm going to end up closing my eyes and plugging my ears to keep myself from experiencing Palin's utter humiliation. As much as I hate her, I just won't be able to take it.

Bad Kitty

Crimson King wrote: »

Single-issue voters are silly. How's your friend feel about going to war with everybody there is?

Funny thing, she's a pacifist and a vegetarian and very cute and mousy. She's just very religious. She really is one of those "value voters" and is generally disinterested in politics. I guess she really does personally identify with Palin, and I don't think there's any rational way to argue against that without losing a friend.D:

Flippy_D

Crimson King

Bad Kitty wrote: »

Crimson King wrote: »

Single-issue voters are silly. How's your friend feel about going to war with everybody there is?

Funny thing, she's a pacifist and a vegetarian and very cute and mousy. She's just very religious. She really is one of those "value voters" and is generally disinterested in politics. I guess she really does personally identify with Palin, and I don't think there's any rational way to argue against that without losing a friend.D:

well, that sucks. the only way I could see to change that is to somehow completely and fundamentally change the way she makes decisions about things. Which is, y'know... hard.

syndalis

Bad Kitty wrote: »

Crimson King wrote: »

Single-issue voters are silly. How's your friend feel about going to war with everybody there is?

Funny thing, she's a pacifist and a vegetarian and very cute and mousy. She's just very religious. She really is one of those "value voters" and is generally disinterested in politics. I guess she really does personally identify with Palin, and I don't think there's any rational way to argue against that without losing a friend.D:

She isn't one of those freakishly idiotic people who think Jesus was a vegetarian, is she?

Schrodinger

syndalis

just tried it and it worked.

amazing.

Crimson King

but there are significantly less results for 'McCain died' then 'McCain lied'. How's that even work?

Bewildered_Ronin

FWIW, here's some fun stuff I sent my mom in a recent email.

1) Palin was not a weather reporter and definitely not a meteorologist. All meteorologists must have at least a bachelors in meteorology or atmospheric science (as per the Meteorological Society). Palin received her bachelor's in communications-journalism. Upon graduating she went to work at local Anchorage affiliate KTUU-TV as a sports reporter, not a weather reporter. [1]

2) Palin actually didn't attend 5 separate colleges, only 4. She attended Hawaii Pacific University for one semester, North Idaho College for 2 semesters, University of Idaho for 2 semesters, Matanuska-Susitna College for 2 semesters, and then returned to University of Idaho to graduate. [1]

3) The population of Wasilla, Alaska, according to 2000 census, is 5,469 [2]. According to FactCheck.org, Wasilla's population under Palin's administration was around 5,000. [3]

4) The population of the 13th district, which Obama presided over as an Illinois senator, has a 2000 census population estimate of 653,647 [4] and a 2007 American Community Survey estimate of 781,037 [5].

5) The entire state of Alaska has a 2000 census population estimate of 626,932 and a 2006 census estimate of 670,053 [6].

It should also be noted that Palin passed Alaska's largest budget in history in 2008 at $7.3 billion, which equals to roughly $10,894 per person (using 2006 census population). To contrast, Virginia's 2008 budget is $36 billion, with a 2006 census population estimate of 7,642,884.That comes out to $4,710 per person. Keep in mind that Alaska has zero sales or income tax. During Palin's gubernatorial term, Alaska has requested $750 million in federal earmarks, equaling to $1,119 per citizen. In contrast, Virgina has requested $1.3 billion in earmarks in 07-08 and $44.5 million in 06-07 (giving a total of $1.75 billion), which comes to a paltry $228 per citizen. As mayor of Wasilla, Palin requested $27 million in earmarks, equaling to roughly $5,400 per Wasilla resident (using FactCheck.org's population estimate of 5,000). Obviously, Palin isn't much of a fiscal conservative.

Furthermore, Palin's idea of "fighting big oil" is as much a myth as her "no thanks" to the Gravina Island bridge (Bridge To Nowhere) and her denial that her administration contacted Monegan regarding Wooten (her ex-brother-in-law (see Troopergate)). Her bill took pipeline rights from BP and instead awarded it TransCanada Corp. Palin also passed a bill giving TransCanada $500 million. Nothing sticks it to the oil companies quite like giving them half a billion dollars.

______________

To contrast that, Joe Biden is shmuck. He authorized the PATRIOT Act, No Child Left Behind, NAFTA, the Mexican border fence, Defens of Marriage Act, tried to make encryption software illegal for citizenry, removed education grants for poor inmates, wants to give Social Security to illegal immigrants, does not support net neutrality, created a bill drafting some of the harshest penalties ever against non-violent drug offenders, and wanted federal prosecutors to aid the RIAA in trying cases against file sharers.

Just about the only thing I like about Biden is that he is anti ethanol and pro bio-diesel.

I have a feeling that whoever wins this election, the real winners will once again be corporate America and the wealthy elite.

DarkCrawler

Bewildered_Ronin wrote: »

To contrast that, Joe Biden is shmuck. He authorized the PATRIOT Act, No Child Left Behind, NAFTA, the Mexican border fence, Defens of Marriage Act, tried to make encryption software illegal for citizenry, removed education grants for poor inmates, wants to give Social Security to illegal immigrants, does not support net neutrality, created a bill drafting some of the harshest penalties ever against non-violent drug offenders, and wanted federal prosecutors to aid the RIAA in trying cases against file sharers.

Just about the only thing I like about Biden is that he is anti ethanol and pro bio-diesel.

I have a feeling that whoever wins this election, the real winners will once again be corporate America and the wealthy elite.

...but Barack Obama is on the ticket as well...:|