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Fable II: Buy the DLC, or the lead designer gets it.

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    sims796sims796 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    How am I wrong? Explain. Even Leapfrog games challenge gamers. This is what makes a fanboy. I state what I dislike on the game, I get everyone who shoots their perfect game down. Only tastydonut gave me a real discussion, rather than trying to pick a fight, with their argument being "WRONG".

    sims796 on
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    jeddy leejeddy lee Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    How am I wrong? Explain. Even Leapfrog games challenge gamers. This is what makes a fanboy. I state what I dislike on the game, I get everyone who shoots their perfect game down. Only tastydonut gave me a real discussion, rather than trying to pick a fight, with their argument being "WRONG".

    I guess our response to you saying it was too easy, is we say "so what". That did not decrease our enjoyment of the game. Your opinion is different, and we find it to be a flawed opinion (as a general collective) due to the reasons we have stated. If you can't deal with that, then leave.

    jeddy lee on
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    ThetherooThetheroo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    How am I wrong? Explain. Even Leapfrog games challenge gamers. This is what makes a fanboy. I state what I dislike on the game, I get everyone who shoots their perfect game down. Only tastydonut gave me a real discussion, rather than trying to pick a fight, with their argument being "WRONG".

    Wut?

    Thetheroo on
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    jack eddy wrote: »
    Sorry for the double post. I will seek you out tonight after I get off work my friend.
    Yea, I'm at work myself, that's why I threw in that "later tonight."

    sims796 wrote: »
    How am I wrong? Explain. Even Leapfrog games challenge gamers. This is what makes a fanboy. I state what I dislike on the game, I get everyone who shoots their perfect game down. Only tastydonut gave me a real discussion, rather than trying to pick a fight, with their argument being "WRONG".

    It's kind of hard to arbitrarily exclude someone from a discussion on a public forum... especially you're not staff. :P

    You are wrong about the challenge thing. Peter Molyneux, the lead designer himself stated the purpose of his game. The interview I quoted was one of many places where he did so.

    I know I've written things with no intent to challenge myself or anyone at all, and I've labelled it a game. I've done other things that have been intentionally impossible. they're games too.

    The only place I can really see your line of reasoning going is into semantics, which is just silly.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    sims796sims796 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    jack eddy wrote: »
    sims796 wrote: »
    jack eddy wrote: »
    sims796 wrote: »
    All games are meant to provide challenge.

    I would say that this is your problem right here. You are exactly what "No more heroe's" was sugesting is wrong with the game industry. Someone who believes that a video game must do something stylisticly to count as a video game, which in fact the only quallifier a video game needs is interaction between the player and what's going on in the screen. Everything else is a choice of the developer.

    So then, what makes a game? Oh, I'm sorry, a "good game"? If there is no challenge, what is the point of playing? What makes it fun? I can't imagine playing Mario Bros if I was always invincible. People don't do the crossword without thinking a bit. It is lierally not a game if it does not challenge in some way.

    Why do people play war? The card game. The game is technically decided before you flip the first cards. The fact is they get enjoyment out of the time spent with the opponent. Same goes for a video game, except time spent with the environment/characters.

    Also, some people believe it or not find the artistic expressions represented in a game worth it, rather than some trivial meaningless challenge that is more cumbersome than rewarding.

    It's like you would dismiss a song for not being complex, or "deep" even if it is enjoyable to listen to.

    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    sims796 on
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I guess you don't like Progress quest.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I saw the challenge of the game being different to "kill dudes in combat" or "beat a final boss". To me, it wasn't about button combos and hit points. There was more to it that I found challenging and enjoyable. If you didn't, then I'm sorry for that.

    darleysam on
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    ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    You are correct: Games and music are different.

    The point of a game, any game, isn't nececarily to be challenging, but to be fun. Fuuuuun

    Fable II isn't a flawed game in that it isn't challenging, it's a great game all around (save for the menus and the bugs), and it's a game that taps into a vein that hasn't been touched on in a long time: the fun vein. Sit down, relax a little, and just play.

    If you want challenge and interfacing with an opponent that can match and counter your every move, take up MMA, or chess.

    Also, war is really only a challenge to play if you've lost motor control to your hands.

    Extreaminatus on
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    sims796sims796 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    First off, I meant to say Leapfrog challenges young gamers. My bad.

    Now, he made a statement on Gameinformer stating "There are always ways to exploit the system, but we had hoped the XP bonuses for chaining, headshots, cliff shots, & others would be a good incentive". Meaning he intended to make a challenge, but a different way. Both Reviewers & gamers (this question came from ordinary players) feel the game too easy. So no, I am not instantly wrong out of the blue.

    The main problem here is that my opinion differs, & in responce, I am basically being attacked for it. I (and others) feel the game too easy, intentional or not.

    sims796 on
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    You are correct: Games and music are different.

    The point of a game, any game, isn't nececarily to be challenging, but to be fun. Fuuuuun

    Fable II isn't a flawed game in that it isn't challenging, it's a great game all around (save for the menus and the bugs), and it's a game that taps into a vein that hasn't been touched on in a long time: the fun vein. Sit down, relax a little, and just play.

    If you want challenge and interfacing with an opponent that can match and counter your every move, take up MMA, or chess.

    Also, war is really only a challenge to play if you've lost motor control to your hands.

    No, War is really only a challenge to play if both players are quadriplegic, and even then the flaw lies elsewhere. Can we drop this, please?

    What clothes do you think they'll have in the DLC? My female hero crossdresses because the female tops all suck imo. Will they fix that?

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    You are correct: Games and music are different.

    The point of a game, any game, isn't nececarily to be challenging, but to be fun. Fuuuuun

    Fable II isn't a flawed game in that it isn't challenging, it's a great game all around (save for the menus and the bugs), and it's a game that taps into a vein that hasn't been touched on in a long time: the fun vein. Sit down, relax a little, and just play.

    If you want challenge and interfacing with an opponent that can match and counter your every move, take up MMA, or chess.

    Also, war is really only a challenge to play if you've lost motor control to your hands.

    No, War is really only a challenge to play if both players are quadriplegic, and even then the flaw lies elsewhere. Can we drop this, please?

    What clothes do you think they'll have in the DLC? My female hero crossdresses because the female tops all suck imo. Will they fix that?

    I'm guessing they will delve deeper into medieval armor and piratey stuff..personally

    Egos on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2009
    It's so hard to balance games anyway. A lot of people on this forum view game difficulty as they remember from being a kid.

    My 11 year old brother still has problems with the second level of MarioWorld (the one with the platforms in the air). Wheras I can beat it by holding right on the Dpad and jumping at the correct times today, and it used to give me fits back then too. In fact you can beat most of MarioWorld this way (there's even a level, I think it's one of the butter bridge ones with the saws in the air, that is perfectly set up so if you take off with Yoshi and a cape at the start of the level, you'll perfectly bounce off saws/enemies and make it almost all the way to the goal) and a lot of the levels in Mario 3 too (and a lot of levels in Mario 3 can be beaten in under a minute). For some strange reason people don't call them casual games, although if released today they would be panned as such.

    FyreWulff on
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    sims796sims796 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    You are correct: Games and music are different.

    The point of a game, any game, isn't nececarily to be challenging, but to be fun. Fuuuuun

    Fable II isn't a flawed game in that it isn't challenging, it's a great game all around (save for the menus and the bugs), and it's a game that taps into a vein that hasn't been touched on in a long time: the fun vein. Sit down, relax a little, and just play.

    If you want challenge and interfacing with an opponent that can match and counter your every move, take up MMA, or chess.

    Also, war is really only a challenge to play if you've lost motor control to your hands.

    And this is what I mean by fanboy, no offense, I cannot stress that enough. But this is what I mean.

    How many times must I say that I had fun playing? I only casually mentioned this as a flaw, and got 7 people jumping at me. I had cams here because it seemed like a place for real discusion. But no, I must agree with everyone else. I am not freaking out, Cardboard is with his insults. Since everyone discussed what they liked about the game, I was hoping to speak on what could be improved for the next game, since this game is not perfect. But no, it seems this game is "perfect", save for a few bugs.

    sims796 on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    No, you're asking for them to change things that were core to the game design, because you didn't die enough times, and playing the persecution complex when we don't all chime in to agree with you. It goes both ways.

    darleysam on
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    sims796 wrote: »
    I enjoy the artisic flair, but music & games are different. And you are insulting game developers who put time & effort into making said games fun. Some games are great eye candy, yet offers little else. War involves challenge. But a cookie cutter game that doesn't take much to beat isn't good. How can I enjoy the interface of the opponent, when the opponent is dumb as rocks? A game being far too easy is a flaw. Hell, it was a main point of GameSpot's review of Fable 2. So is an ugly gsme. Or a bland game. And yes, an overly-complicated game. But a game without challenge isn't a game for anyone above 2.

    I keep saying, I don't want it to be hard. But it shouldn't be so easy that one hit kills opponents. It isn't fun when I can't cut loose, for fear of dominating.

    Tasty understood what I said, and offered me a solution. Not a good one, but hey.

    You are correct: Games and music are different.

    The point of a game, any game, isn't nececarily to be challenging, but to be fun. Fuuuuun

    Fable II isn't a flawed game in that it isn't challenging, it's a great game all around (save for the menus and the bugs), and it's a game that taps into a vein that hasn't been touched on in a long time: the fun vein. Sit down, relax a little, and just play.

    If you want challenge and interfacing with an opponent that can match and counter your every move, take up MMA, or chess.

    Also, war is really only a challenge to play if you've lost motor control to your hands.

    And this is what I mean by fanboy, no offense, I cannot stress that enough. But this is what I mean.

    How many times must I say that I had fun playing? I only casually mentioned this as a flaw, and got 7 people jumping at me. I had cams here because it seemed like a place for real discusion. But no, I must agree with everyone else. I am not freaking out, Cardboard is with his insults. Since everyone discussed what they liked about the game, I was hoping to speak on what could be improved for the next game, since this game is not perfect. But no, it seems this game is "perfect", save for a few bugs.

    This thread is the what, second or third incarnation of the Fable 2 thread? It is almost at 100 pages, and 60 of them were already devoted to beating the dead horse that is reasons Fable 2 sucks. You had the misfortune of being very late to the party, I guess. Please stop martyring yourself. :|

    @Egos: The DLC's page has a picture of what I guess (hope) is a female hero wearing a horrid looking mini skirt and top... hopefully there will be more normal clothes.

    There's an eastern looking set of armor too on there as well, so you may be right.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    Goose!Goose! That's me, honey Show me the way home, honeyRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Please list me on the co-op list.

    gamertag is g0oseyourself

    Goose! on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Will do, but I'm not sure how many people still check it. You might be better just adding a few people off that list.

    darleysam on
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    Goose!Goose! That's me, honey Show me the way home, honeyRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    EDIT: Oh snap, I just found I was wrong

    Goose! on
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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited January 2009

    @Egos: The DLC's page has a picture of what I guess (hope) is a female hero wearing a horrid looking mini skirt and top... hopefully there will be more normal clothes.

    There's an eastern looking set of armor too on there as well, so you may be right.


    "Try on a whole new range of outfits and look like an armoured knight, an assassin, a barbarian or a leather-clad biker, among many others."

    I wonder what constitutes many...

    They added some screens of some of the armor if people have seen it.


    edit: I hope they make Elvis a new title :D Or maybe just being the King is sufficient
    Biker_Gang_thumb.jpg

    Egos on
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    sims796sims796 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    No, you're asking for them to change things that were core to the game design, because you didn't die enough times, and playing the persecution complex when we don't all chime in to agree with you. It goes both ways.

    No, the problem is, I disagree with majority opinion, which is a crime. Everywhere else, and as I keep saying, major reviewers, agree this to be a flaw in the game. But you guys absolutley love it, it has no flaws. Plus, since my opinion is different, I must be playing the sympathy card. Cardboard straight up insulted me. I'm not giving opinions for you to validate it, I am giving them because I have them. I loved the game, just felt it was too easy, despite what you guys may think. But your opinions are fact.

    And yes, I would say that seven people basically barking at me that I am wrong and they are right, without hearing any other arguments, would count as pouncing.

    sims796 on
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    ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I'm looking forward to the biker outfit. And hopefully a YMCA expression.

    Extreaminatus on
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    Mr PinkMr Pink I got cats for youRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So, is it weird if I just give one of the random floating orbs (Live players) a gift for the achievement? My friends are never online, and I can't find my headset to explain why I would be giving them some chocolate.

    But dammit, I need that achievement.

    Mr Pink on
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    ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Hell no, it's weird. I accept gifts from strangers all the time!

    Extreaminatus on
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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    If its any consolation sim, I have a lot of problems with the game - I just don't bring em up :mrgreen:

    Egos on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited January 2009
    sims796 wrote: »
    But no, it seems this game is "perfect", save for a few bugs.

    show me one person that's said that and I won't declare you to be developmentally disabled. if all you're going to do is call people fanboys, go back to the gamefaqs board.

    Tube on
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    OK. I'm home now*, and in a bit if anybody else is interested I'm going to hop onto Fable 2. I can pop the following achievements for you, if you'd like.

    1) Dollcatcher.
    2) Completionist.

    The other ones people should already have (Hoarder, the property one I think I can also pop for people). Anyway, to get either of these achievements you'll have to hench up with me. PM me your gamertag and I will invite you into a game to get these.

    - No, you don't have to add me to your live list to do this.
    - No, you don't have to load your save character up to get them, and it would be quicker if you didn't.
    - No, you don't have to hang around in my fable world after, and it's awkward when you do. :P

    "NOW" IS 1/8/2009 7:01 PM EST and "a bit" is the time from now until I hop onto fable 2 to pop em for the dude who asked me earlier.
    Egos wrote: »

    @Egos: The DLC's page has a picture of what I guess (hope) is a female hero wearing a horrid looking mini skirt and top... hopefully there will be more normal clothes.

    There's an eastern looking set of armor too on there as well, so you may be right.


    "Try on a whole new range of outfits and look like an armoured knight, an assassin, a barbarian or a leather-clad biker, among many others."

    I wonder what constitutes many...

    They added some screens of some of the armor if people have seen it.


    edit: I hope they make Elvis a new title :D Or maybe just being the King is sufficient
    Biker_Gang_thumb.jpg

    That shirt looks nice, but I want something modest that doesn't look uh.. silly on my female hero. Right now she's wearing the noble blouse or something (forgot the name). I can't check because I have her in save limbo until I see what the DLC lets you bring back, if anything.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    jeddy leejeddy lee Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Sweet, I should be on within the hour.

    jeddy lee on
    Backlog Challenge: 0%
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    PS2
    FF X replay

    PS3
    God of War 1&2 HD
    Rachet and Clank Future
    MGS 4
    Prince of Persia

    360
    Bayonetta
    Fable 3

    DS
    FF: 4 heroes of light
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    If you're around I'll send you an invite. Unless you get invites from strangers a lot you should know it's me. :p

    Also, you don't have to do anything to get it other than join my game. I have no idea where my mic is atm so I won't be speaking, sorry.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    jeddy leejeddy lee Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I'm not worried about speaking. I'm online now, so hopefully I get ur invite soon. gamertag is jeddy lee. I also pm'd you.

    jeddy lee on
    Backlog Challenge: 0%
    0/8

    PS2
    FF X replay

    PS3
    God of War 1&2 HD
    Rachet and Clank Future
    MGS 4
    Prince of Persia

    360
    Bayonetta
    Fable 3

    DS
    FF: 4 heroes of light
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    cool. if anybody else wants them tonight (1/8/2009 8:51 PM EST), PM me.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    Iron WeaselIron Weasel Dillon! You son of a bitch!Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Regarding clothing/appearance:

    I found an assassin’s coat early on (the one with the really high neck), but I never found any other assassin pieces.

    I decided to go ahead and make my female hero dress in a manner most impractical to adventuring: thigh-high boots, hot pants, corset, crop-top jacket, highwayman’s hat and a ballroom mask. She had a ponytail for a long while, then I tried long hair and most recently dreads. It’s too bad that hair that goes lower than your shoulders reacts all weird to the weapons on your back.

    Question: Where/when can I get the Worship Expression? I want to open the Demon Door at Bower Lake!

    Iron Weasel on
    Currently Playing:
    The Division, Warframe (XB1)
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    buy the bookshop.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    jeddy leejeddy lee Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I can't seem to get the stupid chaining attacks achievement. Seems like it should be easy. I think it is called Duelist, and you have to get a perfect combo with the melee chained attacks. Any tips?

    jeddy lee on
    Backlog Challenge: 0%
    0/8

    PS2
    FF X replay

    PS3
    God of War 1&2 HD
    Rachet and Clank Future
    MGS 4
    Prince of Persia

    360
    Bayonetta
    Fable 3

    DS
    FF: 4 heroes of light
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    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    use the katana. your attacks are chaining when you see the blue light in the swings, iirc.

    edit: after you buy the bookshop in Bowerstone, it (the worship book) should be in a bookcase upstairs, iirc.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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    SniperLogicSniperLogic ChicagoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Not trying to be patronizing, but just to make sure: You need Brutal Styles 3 otherwise you can swing until your arm comes off to no effect.

    I popped Duelist in all of a few seconds after getting BS3: As stated above, equip a Katana and as soon as the previous swing finishes, swing again. The "blue" is very faint, but lets you know you are on the right track.

    SniperLogic on
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    HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So, when in game, you "collect" rent every 5min. How does that work out of game? I know I get bulk payments when I start up, but it doesn't seem like it'd be every 5min for the whole time I was away.

    Wondering, because I haven't played it in about a week, and curious how much bank is waiting for me tonight.

    Houn on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I think it's payments for every hour it's off, but it's capped at a certain point. Can't remember what, though.

    darleysam on
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    SniperLogicSniperLogic ChicagoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I believe it is every hour you are not playing is a "collection" period, and it has a cap.

    Edit: So beat'd

    SniperLogic on
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    destroyah87destroyah87 They/Them Preferred: She/Her - Please UseRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    and I think the cap is around one day's worth of payments.

    Basically, that amount you get every five minutes while playing is an hours rent in-game.

    So since you get payed approximately every hour while not playing you could get 24 payments maximum.

    destroyah87 on
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    BrodiemanBrodieman Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Nah, I think it's actually 4 days, roughly. Last time I hopped on to my post-game character who gets about 17K, I got 1.6 million, close to 1.7.

    Brodieman on
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