Green Arrow

Bionic Monkey

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

Bloods End

Quiver by Kevin Smith. It's the relaunch that the current series is based on.

Pkmoutl

The Longbow Hunters is far superior to Quiver.

They have a collection of the Green Lantern/Green Arrow series from the 70's that isn't too bad. It's a little hokey, but not bad. You get to see the first appearance of John Stewart, back when he had a 'Fro and was all Jive-Talkin' and shit.

Garlic Bread

Read Longbow Hunters and then Kevin Smith's stuff (Quiver and Sounds of Violence)

Overlard

I love the art in Kevin Smith's books, who did them?

Whippy

Phil Hester

ViolentChemistry

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

Bad Karma

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

ViolentChemistry

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Sentry

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

ViolentChemistry

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

You seem to have missed the part where I like Winick's Green Arrow.

Sentry

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

You seem to have missed the part where I like Winick's Green Arrow.

Sorry, that wasn't actually directed at you. It was directed at the whole debate about the "soapbox." My apologies.

GABBO GABBO GABBO

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

You seem to have missed the part where I like Winick's Green Arrow.

Sorry, that wasn't actually directed at you. It was directed at the whole debate about the "soapbox." My apologies.

Man, don't apologize, you summed up my feelings exactly. Also, Winick's Batman was fucking hot.

Servo

PLUS green arrow blah blah socially aware history blah blah blah book

ViolentChemistry

Manifest wrote:

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

You seem to have missed the part where I like Winick's Green Arrow.

Sorry, that wasn't actually directed at you. It was directed at the whole debate about the "soapbox." My apologies.

Man, don't apologize, you summed up my feelings exactly. Also, Winick's Batman was fucking hot.

It's not like the Green Arrow book has never been used for soap-boxing before Winick anyway. *cough*crackhead-Roy*cough*

Servo

roy was ridin the h-train

crack would be a little on the low end of the classy drugs scale

ViolentChemistry

Servo wrote:

roy was ridin the h-train

crack would be a little on the low end of the classy drugs scale

Yeah, but "crackhead" is such a funny word. Just look at it, isn't it funny? I assert that it is, and that anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know how to laugh at life.

Servo

it's a little depressing really

ViolentChemistry

Servo wrote:

it's a little depressing really

Exactly. We're living in a world where "she's a slut" is a valid defense in court against rape-charges and more money is spent keeping pot-heads in jail to protect the world's cheetos than educating our kids and we can't actually change any of it. This is either deeply depressing or patently hilarious.

Sentry

Agreed, having the most socialist member of the DCU not take an interest in social issues would be kind of stupid. That's why the whole AIDS angle probably wouldn't have worked in Batman...

Robin: Batman... I have AIDS...

Batman: My parents are dead!!

Conditional_Axe

I like Winick more often than not, but I feel like 'The Zamora Equation' is a crutch for him sometimes. I definitely agree that Green Arrow is the perfect book to soapbox in, though.

Servo

Sentry wrote:

Agreed, having the most socialist member of the DCU not take an interest in social issues would be kind of stupid. That's why the whole AIDS angle probably wouldn't have worked in Batman...

Robin: Batman... I have AIDS...

Batman: My parents are dead!!

that snl skit where james bond finds out he has like a million stds and he has to call everyone he's had sex with and the first call goes 'robin? can you get batman. no, stay on the line, this concerns you too'

Sentry

Servo wrote:

Sentry wrote:

Agreed, having the most socialist member of the DCU not take an interest in social issues would be kind of stupid. That's why the whole AIDS angle probably wouldn't have worked in Batman...

Robin: Batman... I have AIDS...

Batman: My parents are dead!!

that snl skit where james bond finds out he has like a million stds and he has to call everyone he's had sex with and the first call goes 'robin? can you get batman. no, stay on the line, this concerns you too'

"I've gotta go... Bond 9 has escaped from the test tube..."

CyberJackal

Sentry wrote:

Batman: My parents are dead!!

Now I can't stop picturing Batman just wandering screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!" in everyone's face...

Bad Karma

I don't want to turn this into a Winick vs. the World thing..but he just doesn't seem like he's going anywhere but down with Ollie at this point.

Ollie is trying to be 'like ninja'?

Katana?

Lotsa gay jokes and innuendo?

Giant wall?

:rotate: :rotate: :rotate:

I dunno...maybe it's the art.

Sentry

Bad Karma wrote:

I don't want to turn this into a Winick vs. the World thing..but he just doesn't seem like he's going anywhere but down with Ollie at this point.

Ollie is trying to be 'like ninja'?

Katana?

Lotsa gay jokes and innuendo?

Giant wall?

:rotate: :rotate: :rotate:

I dunno...maybe it's the art.

The art is pretty damn cartoony considering the story is supposed to be about a destitute group of people forsaken by their government ala' Katrina...

I'm thinking there is more to the wall still being up then we've been shown... but I could be wrong.

And the sword doesn't have the same majesty the arrow to the eye socket did in IC...

Garlic Bread

Sentry wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bad Karma wrote:

ViolentChemistry wrote:

Bionic Monkey wrote:

I was rather impressed with how he was portrayed in JLU, and the suprising stint of decent episodes of Smallville featuring him have prompted me to seek out some Green Arrow TPB. I figure you folks would know better than H/A.

So, what are some of the better GA stories, and what would be some good ones to introduce a new reader?

He's a beast in JLH, too.

I enjoyed Quiver, and I didn't have a problem with Moving Targets even though people seem not to like Judd Winick, apparently. It makes the sidekick-thing official, in any case.

The old Judd Winick stuff isn't bad, it's the post OYL stuff that (my opinion) is terrible.

I thought the issue was that he soap-boxes too much, which would make Moving Targets fall right in line with the complaints, since he soap-boxes about AIDS via Mia.

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

My problem with it is that you have a world in which it's possible to wipe someone's mind by saying something backwards, but you can't get rid of AIDS?

Servo

they probably could, but then they would eventually turn into the csa if they just solved every problem for humanity

Garlic Bread

you mean Justice Lords?

I thought the CSA were just villains

Munch

Sentry wrote:

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

My issue is that Winick feels the need to talk about A) AIDS or homosexuals in a lot of his work. The AIDS reveal didn't seem to serve any greater plot. You haven't really seen Speedy deal with it or the repercussions outside of the initial issue, and then I think one or two panels where she looked sad because she couldn't ask a boy out. So what was the point? All he's done is put an expiration date on a character with plenty of pathos already. Seriously, was an ex-incestual child molestation victim turned child prostitute/meth addict not enough?

And see, here's the other thing. Someone in a thread here once said something like, "Well she was a hooker! I'd be more disgusted if she didn't contract AIDS!" It's kind of a bullshit arguement. Imagine for a second this scene.

Ollie: What? What is it?
Mia: I've got.. herpes.

That's a far more likely conclusion to the whole unprotected hooker sex story, but you know what? It wouldn't sell a bunch of books, or get Winick an article in a major newspaper, or let him talk about Pedro and the horrible experience his friend went through. Shit, people would probably laugh at a herpes reveal. But AIDS? Well boy howdy, that's some serious stuff there, let's all bow our heads and look sad while Winick gives us the after school special lesson again.

I also hate the, "Well it's always been a socially concious book!" excuse. Has everyone forgotten everything pre and post O'Neil's Hard Traveling Heroes, and decided to focus solely on like, twelve issues wherein Ollie and Hal traveled around the countryside and Ollie tried to make Hal feel bad by painting himself up as a yellow native american (seriously) and talking to a guy who was kind of like Jesus? I know it was an important story that kind of set Ollie up as the lovable liberal he is today, but it's not the be all end all when it comes to what a Green Arrow book can be.

But then again, I still enjoyed Green Arrow up though like, volume five, so I still enjoyed some of Winick's stuff. Actually, all the supernatural monsters and zombies and stuff tend to bug me more than the socially concious stories.

Garlic Bread

Servo wrote:

they probably could, but then they would eventually turn into the csa if they just solved every problem for humanity

i'm not saying heal everyone

i'm saying you can't have AIDS as a compelling story element for a character when she could just say, "Hey Ollie, get Zatanna plz"

Bloods End

Munch wrote:

Sentry wrote:

Gee, god forbid someone inject something educational into a medium marketed directly to impressionable kids... That kind of shit just pisses me off. He went through an experience that effected him profoundly, and used that to create stories that could educate the youth of America. Lets fucking cut his balls off. I think Winick's writing can be hit or miss... it's usually hit for me, but hey, I'm easy to please. But dismissing him for injecting some social conscience into his work... that is just borderline retarded.

My issue is that Winick feels the need to talk about A) AIDS or homosexuals in a lot of his work. The AIDS reveal didn't seem to serve any greater plot. You haven't really seen Speedy deal with it or the repercussions outside of the initial issue, and then I think one or two panels where she looked sad because she couldn't ask a boy out. So what was the point? All he's done is put an expiration date on a character with plenty of pathos already. Seriously, was an ex-incestual child molestation victim turned child prostitute/meth addict not enough?

There was a whole thing in Teen Titans where she was worried about telling the rest of the Titans about it, but that was Johns. And there was that scene in Robin where she asks about finding a cure in Luthors lab, but that was Willingham.

Munch

The thing in Robin actually read to me as more of a joke than anything. If I'm remembering this right, she said something like, "Does anyone see a vial that says 'Speedy Cure' on it?" It didn't strike me as a significant piece of character development or anything. Johns handled it slightly better in Teen Titans, but really it just kind of piddled out in the same way, as she joined the team, announced she had HIV, was on the team for a handful of issues, used her special blue arrow in a pointless manner (huge letdown by the way), and then got shunted off the title following the OYL shake up.

I don't know, I just kind of preferred how Kevin Smith characterized Mia. It seemed like when Winick introduced the HIV reveal she became another standard angsty teenage sidekick.

Cosmic Sombrero

I have all the current GA run, and most of the previous one, except one.



Because holy fuck, I don't give a shit.

I'm starting to like the current story arc a little more. Anything with tiny assasains gives me a boner the size of Manhatten.

Sentry

Munch wrote:

The thing in Robin actually read to me as more of a joke than anything. If I'm remembering this right, she said something like, "Does anyone see a vial that says 'Speedy Cure' on it?" It didn't strike me as a significant piece of character development or anything. Johns handled it slightly better in Teen Titans, but really it just kind of piddled out in the same way, as she joined the team, announced she had HIV, was on the team for a handful of issues, used her special blue arrow in a pointless manner (huge letdown by the way), and then got shunted off the title following the OYL shake up.

I don't know, I just kind of preferred how Kevin Smith characterized Mia. It seemed like when Winick introduced the HIV reveal she became another standard angsty teenage sidekick.

The Speedy cure vial was one part, but she also asked them if they would try that hard to cure her when it was her dying... it was kind of touching, a little... honestly, my first introduction to Speedy was when she joined the Teen Titans (and she should still be there... I'm really pissed she's not... what a waste..) and more recently in the GA OYL story... I never got to see her as a whiney side-kick... but the AIDS angle worked for me because, when you get right down to it... she's just GA in red and yellow... her past and her disease is the only thing that sets her apart... from anyone, to be honest. I just don't think the AIDS angle is any different then Superboy's clone thing, or Raven's daddy issues... it's just a way of giving a character depth... face it, if it were cancer would people really be upset? No... but because it's something that is still a stigma in society, everyone calls it Winick's soapbox...

Pkmoutl

Keith wrote:

Read Longbow Hunters and then Kevin Smith's stuff (Quiver and Sounds of Violence)

I was disappointed with Sounds of Violence. I felt like he just kind of stopped at the end. There was no actual end, it was just kind of a "well, I'm done writing this for now" kind of feeling. Like he got bored and just said, "and that's the end. I'm going to go write some more fart jokes for Mewes now."

Personally, I really dug Archer's Quest. It wasn't Kevin Smith, but he's not the fucking be-all-end-all of writing in the first place.

PhoneBone

Pkmoutl wrote:

Keith wrote:

Read Longbow Hunters and then Kevin Smith's stuff (Quiver and Sounds of Violence)

I was disappointed with Sounds of Violence. I felt like he just kind of stopped at the end. There was no actual end, it was just kind of a "well, I'm done writing this for now" kind of feeling. Like he got bored and just said, "and that's the end. I'm going to go write some more fart jokes for Mewes now."

Personally, I really dug Archer's Quest. It wasn't Kevin Smith, but he's not the fucking be-all-end-all of writing in the first place.

I picked up Sounds of Violence after I first read Quiver, which I really enjoyed.
I got the exact same feeling with SoV that you did. It just kind of stopped.
No real closure or anything. I enjoyed the art and dialog, but still, I was expecting more.

But at least those trades got me into Green Arrow, so I've been meaning to pick up Longbow Hunters soon, but then again, I have like a million things I need to pick up.

Conditional_Axe

Sentry wrote:

No... but because it's something that is still a stigma in society, everyone calls it Winick's soapbox...

No, I think that people refer to it as a soapbox because doing a quick search for Judd Winick and AIDS nets you nearly 17000 hits.

I get it, he lost his friend. It's an important topic. But you're also allowed to talk about other things, Judd.

Garlic Bread

Pkmoutl wrote:

Keith wrote:

Read Longbow Hunters and then Kevin Smith's stuff (Quiver and Sounds of Violence)

I was disappointed with Sounds of Violence. I felt like he just kind of stopped at the end. There was no actual end, it was just kind of a "well, I'm done writing this for now" kind of feeling. Like he got bored and just said, "and that's the end. I'm going to go write some more fart jokes for Mewes now."

Personally, I really dug Archer's Quest. It wasn't Kevin Smith, but he's not the fucking be-all-end-all of writing in the first place.

Yeah, when it ended I was like, "well, what the fuck happened with that sound dude?"

i'm not saying he's the best writer, I just quite enjoyed his Green Arrow work

ViolentChemistry

Conditional_Axe wrote:

Sentry wrote:

No... but because it's something that is still a stigma in society, everyone calls it Winick's soapbox...

No, I think that people refer to it as a soapbox because doing a quick search for Judd Winick and AIDS nets you nearly 17000 hits.

I get it, he lost his friend. It's an important topic. But you're also allowed to talk about other things, Judd.

You mean like in the very next issue where he talked about superheroes fighting supervillains?

Chorazin

CyberJackal wrote:

Sentry wrote:

Batman: My parents are dead!!

Now I can't stop picturing Batman just wandering screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!" in everyone's face...

http://www.pvponline.com/images/batman/