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[WoW] Raiding: Naxxramas is the new Naxxramas
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ski-bapba-dapModerator, Administrator admin
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big old dick
I raided Naxx when it first came out. Are there any real noticable differences in Naxx except hitting harder/more hp on the enemies? Is it mostly the exact same, just retuned for smaller group, but higher level? I'm saddened if so, yet somewhat glad as Naxx got bypassed pretty badly when Burning Crusade came out. It was pretty damn unforgiving.
Razuvious on 10man gives you two orbs that are used to MC the adds rather than priests, since you can't count on two priests in a 10man. Besides that everything is mostly the same.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
More like its the same thing only embarrassingly easy.
The number depends on your gear and your spec, but yes.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
edit: little bit of clarification
Throwing in titles for server first now of all times annoys me, because I will not get any further ones.
Especially since the people who have the title were still vainly trying to get through AQ40 (they never beat it) when I was in old naxx.
No fucking way!
I haven't raided since vanilla, and neither have quite a few of the people I did some of the raids with last week.
Its easy. The only way it could not be seen as laughably easy is if you are a bad player.
Only pug raids I did in vanilla were multi-guild world dragon endeavors once or twice, and they were true disasters, with the big guilds arguing with each other.
I'm leaning towards shit is easy.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
That might not be possible because of the enrage timer. I'm sure it will be possible once people gear up further though.
40
vs
25
Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.
Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.
I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.
You are the one who brought up vanilla, specifically the world dragon endeavors.
So you're going to have to do a real fuckin lot to convince me that MC and BWL had a single fight with difficult mechanics. The entire difficulty from the first two tiers came from the amount of people you had in your raid knowing jack-all of what to do. This includes the world dragons.
As for Kara? Are you going to actually argue that Kara has difficult mechanics?
Grand Widow Faerlina's adds also don't require an MC; you just kill them next to her and it has the same effect as MCing and using their Widow's Embrace.
Is there some page on Wowwiki or somewhere that lists all the differences between 40-and-10 and 40-and-25 Naxxramas?
Is that the case in both the 10 and 25 man versions? We've been just killing them in 10, but thought we had to MC them in 25.
This is weird because the half pug raid I was in found 4H to be a pushover that we 2 shotted and we couldn't down Grobbulous. I don't know if there's a better strategy, but what we did is tank Grob along the outside wall and every time he dropped a cloud the tank moved about a cloud and a half. If you got the Mutating Injecting then you went to the spaces between the clouds on the wall and let it drop off. Things seemed to go well until 35% where he starts chain casting and everything went to hell.
In the 25 man you do need to MC and sacrifice Faerlina's adds. You can look on each fight at wowiki to see the difference between the 10 and the 25 man, not sure how to see the 40 man version though you could look at the old pages.
The first time my guild tried Archavon 25, we did it with 18, with only like three of us being healers and about five of us being tanks. They've since buffed his HP by a lot, so your raid of 15 would need to do about 34,000 dps now to kill him before his enrage. This is still an achievable number, but you'd need your dps to be wearing a lot of 25-man gear to hit it.
What an annoying boss. Really.
I knew his hitbox was big, but come fucking on. I'm swinging at nothing the whole time, and if you move anywhere but max range on the side you just about die from cleave or tail swipe. The first few attempts were messy... We got him down to like 40% before someone screwed up and we were out of time (*shakefist at 6am work*). It will feel like an accomplishment to get him down though, which is always nice. Most of the bosses provide no challenge at all, so its refreshing even if its just somewhat iffy mechanics.
For Grob, tank him where you were, but instead have people run to the far extreme sides of the room, like where that one cubby hole is to drop off the poison bomb thing. then return to the fight. I melee DPS and had plenty of time to manage that and adds. Really it just takes people being aware of the poison and then being quick to respond so you can get away and drop it.
The tank should be able to kite all along that wall, and when he gets to the end, just move up a bit and go back to the start.
Guide to sapphiron:
bring three healers
decurse
put frost resist on your 5 dps
decurse
dont stand in blizzard
decurse
stack up in ground phase, spread out in air phase
decurse
after second icebolt goes down, stack up behind the nearest one
decurse
collect loot
One thing that's common for all bosses across the board is their abilities simply hit for less or hit less people. Rain of Fire on Faerlina used to tick for over 1/4 of your total health, it is now jokingly simple to heal through. Noth's curse used to hit 20 targets, now it hits 6 (I think). I'll only list significant ones on my...
List of Naxx Differences: 40-man vs. 25-man Naxx
Anub'rekan:
- No longer requires a movement haste effect (swift pot, AotP, etc.) to out run the Locus Swarm.
- 4-stacks of Locust Swarm 40-man was tank lethal, tanks can now easily survive 10+ stacks.
- Explodes corpses significantly less often.
Faerlina:
- Enrage no longer accelerates the rate at which she shoots poison bolts.
Maexxna:
- Spider adds no longer actively use threat tables, and thus don't prefer healers.
- Web Spray now lasts 4 seconds instead of 10.
- Web Wraps are significantly easier to kill and significantly less lethal to their occupants.
Noth the Plaguebringer:
- Blinks less frequently (which is trivialized by being tauntable, may as well be removed.)
- Clears all adverse effects when he teleports, preventing loot issues if he died on the balcony.
Heigan the Unclean:
- Pre-encounter gauntlet removed entirely. Aggro/engage radius greatly reduced.
- AOE mana burn removed (or significantly reduced in size, I assume removed due to Pally tanks.)
- Teleport ability removed completely. Area in which people were teleported was turned into a small gauntlet room between Heigan and Loatheb.
- Splash pattern far, FAR, more lenient when transitioning between phases.
- Fast Phase lasts slightly (one splash) longer.
- Splash damage significantly reduced; basically non-lethal even to non-tanks.
- Decrepit Fever made into a non-factor in the encounter (tanks could be hit twice and die with Fever active in 40-man.)
Loatheb:
- Healing prevention implementation changed entirely. Healers used to gain personal debuffs which would lock out healing spells entirely for 1 minute after using a heal. Now uses a blanket MS effect on the entire raid.
- Spore spawn point randomized, no longer controllable by positioning the boss in a specific manner. Spores used to spawn directly behind Loatheb on the opposite side of the room in relation to the center.
- No longer requires you to level herb and farm Grave Moss in SM for Shadow Protection Pots
Patchwerk:
- Hateful strike now uses a threat table instead of being based off current HP of targets in melee range.
- Being the target of a HS generates a fairly high static amount of threat as to prevent DPS classes from passing OTs with high mitigation totals.
- MT actually needs to actively tank Patchwerk to maintain their job as the tank. A mechanic similar to the one mentioned above as assumed to be in place on the MT in 40-man preventing excessively high DPS classes from pulling aggro (go go rolling Ignites.)
Grobbulus:
- No changes. He was this easy in 40-man, too. 8-)
Gluth:
- 20 second cooldown Fear removed to make more than just Warrior tanks viable.
- Gluth actively seeks out nearby zombies and will move to them if they come in close proximity.
- Enrage ability only used every 15 seconds instead of every 7-8 (making it 1-Hunter tranqable.)
- Due to removal of Fear as an ability, Gluth is tauntable in order to control Mortal Wound stacks. This was managed in 40-man by allowing one tank to be feared which forced Gluth to pick a new primary aggro target until the feared player re-engaged the boss, allowing tanks to reset their MS effects.
Thaddius:
- Feugen's AOE mana burn removed, damage component still present.
- Feugan and Stalagg no longer have knockbacks.
- Throw abilities far more reliable than 40-man implementation where tanks could be thrown short or bounce back mid-flight.
Instructor Razuvious:
- MC debuff on mind controlled adds removed.
- Shout no longer a mana burn.
Gothik the Harvester:
- Horses on UD side have significantly less health and no longer trample nearby melee.
- Ghosts on UD side no longer entirely immune to non-physical damage.
- Health of all NPCs during the encounter reduced greatly (by comparison) and no longer require CC to be present during the encounter in order to either: a) not over-run the UD side, or b) survive.
Four Horsemen:
- The horsemen now run to their corners when the encounter begins and Blaumeux and Zeliek only require someone to be engaged within 40 yards of them, not physical tanks.
- Blaumeux and Zeliek gained the ability to nuke the room if no one is engaged with them within range, but they would have killed everyone anyway if no one tanked them in 40-man.
- Shield Wall abilities removed entirely from the encounter. Shield Wall was used at 50% and 20% in 40-man which forced you to maintain a tank, healer, and DPS rotation in order to survive the Meteors used by Thane during the encounter. Once Thane was dead the encounter turned into something more like what you see in Naxx today.
- Radius of marks reduced from 60 to ~40 yards. Duration reduced from 2 minutes to 20 seconds. Frequency of application of marks remains the same.
- Horsemen remained present as ghosts after being killed in 40-man and continued to dish out marks, so killing a Horseman near the mark timer on a fatal mark was still fatal.
- Morgrain (of Ashbringer fame) turned into Rivendare (of Stratholme fame) between 40 and 25 man.
- Zeliek's Holy Wrath ability significantly less potent than 40 man where bridging to more than 1 additional target was certain death. It can now jump 4-5 times before becoming fatal.
- Thane's 25-man meteor only causes ~30,000 damage and can be easily split between 3-4 people, 40-man Thane's meteor caused ~50,000 damage and required 10+ people to be present in order to survive.
Sapphiron:
- No longer capable (that we've seen) of stranding an entire side without an ice block.
- Shoots 3 iceblocks for 25-man, only shot 4 for 40-man.
- Aura no longer requires a significant amount of FrR gear to survive. Raid members in 40-man required upwards of 200 FrR (equal to about 300 now) to have a good chance of survival in the event a Blizzard is dropped on their head.
Kel'thuzad:
- Initial add wave phase shortened by ~2 minutes.
- No longer requires FrR gear whatsoever. Pre-BC squishier classes would be 1-shot by Frostbolt Volley without at least a partial resist.
- Frost Bolts deal significantly less damage in the event they are cast. These 1-shot tanks in 40-man.
- Shadow Fissure has a much longer activation time, 5 seconds 40-man vs. 10 seconds 25-man.
- Mind Control can no longer target the Main Tank. In 40-man it would target the MT 100% of the time and cause a full threat drop, allowing an alternate tank to pickup the boss. This became an issue in the event the Guardians of Icecrown were active (sub-40%) and all available tanks were either MC'd or on Guardians.
- Guardians of Icecrown functionally different. Previously would gain damage based on players dying in the encounter after they become active, now they simply become stronger as the fight progresses, making them a factor in the encounter even if no one dies.
- Guardians are immune to CC in 25-man but were Shacklable (as long as you didn't chackle all of them) in 40-man.
I think that's all the changes...
I think it's a lot easier once people realize that the holes in the walls of lava are in the predetermined spots depending on what side they come up on... like if it's on his right melee range is the safe spot and if it's on his left then back in caster range is safe... assuming you have him turned towards the right. There's a couple other holes but they don't seem super practical...
I mention this because last week I was pretty consistently #2 on threat (affliction warlock), and periodically he'd turn and move toward me a little bit, setting off omen alerts and general panic on my end.
There's no other threatbased mechanic in that fight that I'm aware of, so I wonder if something isn't going on where the MT gets MCed, but it's immediately cancelled. Didn't get to talk it out later and we two shot him anyway, but it was very strange.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I don't think it's bad business at all. "Look at these impossible challenges that you may one day overcome" is a huge draw for people, even if they will never get there. Then when Nihilum or whoever beats these impossible bosses, they get a ton of praise and people think, "well our guild might be in that position one day wouldn't that be cool"
People look at the difficulty of things realistically when they're doing it, but idealistically when they haven't got there - and most people won't, so ridiculous raid bosses are a cool thing for people to dream about while playing.
Yeah thats not sapp, thats the dragon in obsidian sanctum, who is real easy.