SEMIFINALS: MATCH A: PRE-FIGHT DEBATE

robosagogo

Spectre-x wrote:

Well there you have it. If the Rock leads to the Fifth Dimension, there is no reason why it shouldn't lead to the Shadowlands.

Heaven and Hell are different, they can use Zauriel's sword to get to both of those by just cutting a hole in the fabric of reality and stepping through.

The Swamp Thing storyline "American Gothic" revolved around Swamp Thing, John Constantine, and various allies (including Phantom Stranger, the Demon, Baron Winters, Deadman, Doctor Occult, Doctor Fate, Cain and Abel, the Spectre, Sargon the Sorcerer, Zatara, Zatanna, and Mento of the Doom Patrol) attempting to stop a group of male witches known as the Brujera from using a Crisis-induced mystical disturbance to awaken a cosmic being (known as "the Primordial Darkness") to destroy God. This "Primordial Darkness" is revealed to be the Anti-Monitor's hand from the battle at the beginning of time in Crisis on Infinite Earths #10, reaching up out of what is apparently Hell. At the climax of the storyline in Swamp Thing #50, Swamp Thing convinces God and "the Primordial Darkness" to compromise, although Zatara and Sargon are killed, Zatanna's relationship with Constantine permanently damaged, and Mento driven insane.

The entity involved in this story was also revealed to be the source of power behind many superheroes and supervillains in the DC universe. Called both "the Shadowlands" and "the Primordial Darkness," the hand empowers Obsidian, Ian Karkull, the Shade, Shadow-Thief, Eclipso, and others, either directly or indirectly.

The Shadowlands are Hell. So depowering Marvel is back on, then?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Monitor

Spectre-x

Yeah, sure. Shade would still have to get Captain Marvel there, though. Which would at the very least be incredibly tricky, what with Marvel's knowledge of the Shade's powers and such. And his speed.

Not impossible, but difficult.

robosagogo

Shade probably can't match Marvel for speed, but he's more than capable of outwitting him and sneaking up on him. He's a cunning teleporter, after all.

Marvel knowing Shade's powers is a benefit, but Marvel is hardly a strategist. Chances are he'll just deal with Shade like he deals with everyone else, by trying to punch them really hard. Shade, meanwhile, has extensive experience against both speedsters and the superstrong. Chances are he's got a good idea of how to take care of the boy.

Spectre-x

Captain Marvel's mind is really quite an asset. Wisdom of Solomon and such. He might not be a tactician per se, but it's difficult to outwit him just like that.

EDIT: Jeez god dang Robos he does not have an adolescent mind. He has the wisdom of Solomon.

robosagogo

Spectre-x wrote:

Captain Marvel's mind is really quite an asset. Wisdom of Solomon and such. He might not be a tactician per se, but it's difficult to outwit him just like that.

What has he ever managed to accomplish with the Wisdom of Solomon? It always just struck me as a moral compass.

Spectre-x

It gives him superhuman, or at least far above average intelligence and stuff. It's in his power description.

robosagogo

wis‧dom  /ˈwɪzdəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wiz-duhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight.
2. scholarly knowledge or learning: the wisdom of the schools.
3. wise sayings or teachings; precepts.
4. a wise act or saying.

Wisdom has always struck me as being an understanding of "right" and "wrong" and how best to deal with moral quandaries as opposed to, say, battle strategies and math problems. Basically, it's every intelligent thing that cannot necessarily be learned through experience or study.

And yeah, he does have an adolescent mind. He cried in front of Superman because he doesn't have the hardened heart of an adult. He doesn't have life experience, and he still sees the world in black and white. If anything, the Wisdom of Solomon only emphasizes the problem since it allows him to see "right" and "wrong" where we would normally spot grey areas. Faced with a situation where there truly was no moral option, he'd probably break down.

robosagogo

In 1 Kings 3:5-14, God visits the newly crowned King Solomon in a dream, and offers him anything he pleases. Solomon asks for "an understanding heart to judge Your people, to discern between good and evil - for who is able to judge this great people of Yours?"

NinjaSquirrel

In JLA Marvel uses the wisdom of Solomon to develop a plan to figure out how to stop the two Djinn from destroying the 3rd dimension.

robosagogo

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

In JLA Marvel uses the wisdom of Solomon to develop a plan to figure out how to stop the two Djinn from destroying the 3rd dimension.

What does the plan involve?

NinjaSquirrel

robosagogo wrote:

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

In JLA Marvel uses the wisdom of Solomon to develop a plan to figure out how to stop the two Djinn from destroying the 3rd dimension.

What does the plan involve?

He started by having to find a way to get himself and Green Lantern away from Qwsp. Then talking the what appears to be 5th dimension court people into taking them back into the 3rd dimension. Figuring out the appropriate magic words that the good Djinn had to say to get them to merge. Finding a way to relay the message.

So, maybe it wasn't the most impressive type of planning, but from what Shazam said earlier in the series "Remember the Wisdom of Solomon for all else will fail" I figured it was saying that it was something that the others wouldn't normally think of or be able to do.

Spectre-x

robosagogo wrote:

In 1 Kings 3:5-14, God visits the newly crowned King Solomon in a dream, and offers him anything he pleases. Solomon asks for "an understanding heart to judge Your people, to discern between good and evil - for who is able to judge this great people of Yours?"

The biblical Solomon does not give Captain Marvel his wisdom, a god with the same name does.

robosagogo

Spectre-x wrote:

robosagogo wrote:

In 1 Kings 3:5-14, God visits the newly crowned King Solomon in a dream, and offers him anything he pleases. Solomon asks for "an understanding heart to judge Your people, to discern between good and evil - for who is able to judge this great people of Yours?"

The biblical Solomon does not give Captain Marvel his wisdom, a god with the same name does.

I'd have thought he got his wisdom from the same source as Solomon, not from the mortal Solomon himself.

So what is the god named Solomon known for?

And what has he accomplished with the wisdom? I've only heard of it telling Billy to not reveal his age just to be with Stargirl and, now, the 5th dimension thing.

Spectre-x

robosagogo wrote:

Spectre-x wrote:

robosagogo wrote:

In 1 Kings 3:5-14, God visits the newly crowned King Solomon in a dream, and offers him anything he pleases. Solomon asks for "an understanding heart to judge Your people, to discern between good and evil - for who is able to judge this great people of Yours?"

The biblical Solomon does not give Captain Marvel his wisdom, a god with the same name does.

I'd have thought he got his wisdom from the same source as Solomon, not from the mortal Solomon himself.

So what is the god named Solomon known for?

And what has he accomplished with the wisdom? I've only heard of it telling Billy to not reveal his age just to be with Stargirl and, now, the 5th dimension thing.

Well, probably a bunch of similar stuff to those things he did with it.

And man the god Solomon is fictional. He's just really smart and wise.

Captain Marvel's wisdom of Solomon is described as giving him wisdom AND enhanced mental perception.

robosagogo

What does enhanced mental perception mean, in this case?

Spectre-x

Smarter than normal.

robosagogo

But what defines smart, and how smart? Does he have the intelligence of Mr. Terrific if Mr. Terrific never bothered to learn anything, or does he have access to knowledge that he doesn't usually have such as how to build a dam or speak French? Or is it somewhere in between?

NinjaSquirrel

robosagogo wrote:

But what defines smart, and how smart? Does he have the intelligence of Mr. Terrific if Mr. Terrific never bothered to learn anything, or does he have access to knowledge that he doesn't usually have such as how to build a dam or speak French? Or is it somewhere in between?

Wiki wrote:

As Captain Marvel, Billy has instant access to a vast amount of scholarly knowledge. The wisdom of Solomon also gives Marvel clairvoyance and provides him with counsel and advice in times of need. In early Captain Marvel stories, he also had knowledge of all languages and sciences, ancient and modern, and could hypnotize people as well, through this power.