Is it illegal for me to write or draw pictures in some books I bought?
Technically not, because you're not altering the work, per say. That is, you're not altering the text or layout of the original volume. An argument could be made that you're adapting the work to a different medium, if the pictures were derivative works, but that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about. 'Sides, you're not communicating your drawings/book, which means that any alterations could fall under fair dealings/use exceptions.
That it is only "technically not" has me worried, to be honest.
It's not even "technically not," it's "not." Unless you're planning on redistribution, you can do whatever you want with your private copy of whatever. You would not, for example, be able to scrawl in study notes and then resell copies of the book for a premium. Nintendo has any number of things that they probably don't want redistributed in this case, from copyrighted skins to the methodology to break their encryption, to publicizing and/or creating an audience educated about how to pirate their games.
As far as circumventing encryption goes, I'm given to understand that's illegal whether or not you redistribute it, under the DMCA.
But for something as minor as cosmetic modifications, it is likely protected by fair use. Therefore it's not clear cut until the courts decide, and there's no way any company would take a legitimate owner of a piece of software to court and risk the DMCA being weakened.
Fair Dealings/Use covers a lot of things, but this wouldn't be one of them. This would all probably fall under derivative works, which infringe on the IP owner's copyright. Not only that, but they're communicating that derivative work to the public.
Typical nintendo. These modders should concentrate on companies that take a friendlier stance to mods, or at least looks the other way.
Like Sony and Microsoft.
No, like Valve.
...my point was that none of the consoles are exactly friendly to modders, and haven't been for, well, ever. The only question is, altruistic intentions from these guys aside, why is anyone surprised?
Consoles aren't friendly for modders because the hardware isn't friendly. Hell, hard drives being standard in consoles is a new thing.
That, and the companies aren't friendly with them. Microsoft prevents you from using your own hard drive on a 360, and Sony seems to release daily patches in an attempt to defeat PSP piracy. This is just Nintendo doing the same thing.
I like how my current understanding of this situation has ]EE[ being cool with it and all the "fans" going crazy and upset and making angry threads about it.
I like how my current understanding of this situation has ]EE[ being cool with it and all the "fans" going crazy and upset and making angry threads about it.
I think 'being cool' isn't the right way to think about it. They definitely aren't ok with all of this (they devoted 3/4th of a year to this, and now they have to trash it?!), but they don't seem to think they have any choice, so they have to do what they are told to do. The fans are upset because all of this time, effort, love, and energy goes into a project that has to be canned the day it's supposed to be released. At bare minimum, all these people are now aware of a few of the (frankly dumb) intricacies of copyright/encryption law, and they obviously don't agree with it.
At bare minimum, all these people are now aware of a few of the (frankly dumb) intricacies of copyright/encryption law, and they obviously don't agree with it.
Well, IP is in the state it's in because people didn't know or didn't care about the laws being passed, so lets chalk this up as a win for the precipitation of change.
I think must of us know Nintendo could do this and they have the right to....but out of all the crap they could be cracking down on, they choose these texture artists? Dumb.
It is not even like Nintendo has dl content for Brawl and is losing money that way.
I think 99% of the people interested in the hack already own Brawl.
So, yeah... It is in the spirit of change, I suppose.
My patch is that you append "and, later, he discovered he was gay and they broke up" to any (non-gay) romance novel. I'm not going to bother with any legal details because there's nothing illegal about this because I own this copy of the book. Perhaps now I am liable for telling you all the secret of book modding? Pretty lame.
Are you really equating encryption breaking to penmenship?
It is just very easy encryption to break, like Palin's password olol. You need a pencil.
But seriously, the whole encryption breaking thing really just sounds like a bullshit technicality.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
I think must of us know Nintendo could do this and they have the right to....but out of all the crap they could be cracking down on, they choose these texture artists? Dumb.
It is not even like Nintendo has dl content for Brawl and is losing money that way.
I think 99% of the people interested in the hack already own Brawl.
So, yeah... It is in the spirit of change, I suppose.
What they don't seem to understand is that Nintendo tries to crack down on other crap.
They send C&Ds and they just get ignored. Since it's usually nebulous as to who these people actually are because they're quite aware what they're doing is illegal, Nintendo has little recourse but to either let it go or send another (also ignored) C&D. There's also the fact that they'd be rather hesitant to take people to court because even if they win, there's no guarantee something might not happen to marginally or greatly weaken the legal power of the things you're supposed to agree to when obtaining their software and hardware.
IP laws will never change because there is too much money tied to it, so don't think that a few C&D letters is going to institute a revolution.
darren66 on
Wii U sucks, but my NNID is da66en. Steam is route66. 3DS is 2938-8099-8160.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
That's the thing, though. That would be a much more valid analogy (giving away the Coke formula, for instance) if they were freely distributing Brawl's source code or something. They aren't, though. The guide and hack only had the stuff needed to be applied; even the guide doesn't explain what you're actually doing in detal (mainly because they tried to make it n00b-friendly). Like I said, nothing distributed would have been originally on the Brawl disc, or even originating from the Brawl disc.
Yeah, Hitler laughed too. Well, maybe he didn't because I've never actually seen a picture of him laughing. He seems like he wouldn't be very fun at parties.
My patch is that you append "and, later, he discovered he was gay and they broke up" to any (non-gay) romance novel. I'm not going to bother with any legal details because there's nothing illegal about this because I own this copy of the book. Perhaps now I am liable for telling you all the secret of book modding? Pretty lame.
Are you really equating encryption breaking to penmenship?
It is just very easy encryption to break, like Palin's password olol. You need a pencil.
But seriously, the whole encryption breaking thing really just sounds like a bullshit technicality.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
Yeah that's great but let's face it these guys aren't revealing nintendo's Super Coding Secrets or whatever. Somehow I don't think the law was really meant to protect Tiger from people hacking cussing onto furbies.
Yeah that's great but let's face it these guys aren't revealing nintendo's Super Coding Secrets or whatever. Somehow I don't think the law was really meant to protect Tiger from people hacking cussing onto furbies.
For the record, I'd LOVE to see/hear that.
EDIT: This is the USA. Every law these days is made to protect corporations at the expense of the consumer.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
Wow, so wrong. Reverse engineering is legal.
If I reversed engineered the formula to Coke, I could sell it as a product that "tastes as good as Coke", I can't just sell it as "Coke".
The DMCA crap about breaking encryption will get it's day in court, until then it's just a scare tactic.
darren66 on
Wii U sucks, but my NNID is da66en. Steam is route66. 3DS is 2938-8099-8160.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
Okay, so it was A) an illegal hack that required a pirated copy of the game to run and C) was used for further copyright infringement?
And the reasons given for why the thing shouldn't get shut down are that "other people do worse things and we totally promise we don't have any bad intentions?"
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
Wow, so wrong. Reverse engineering is legal.
If I reversed engineered the formula to Coke, I could sell it as a product that "tastes as good as Coke", I can't just sell it as "Coke".
The DMCA crap about breaking encryption will get it's day in court, until then it's just a scare tactic.
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
Okay, so it was A) an illegal hack that required a pirated copy of the game to run and C) was used for further copyright infringement?
And the reasons given for why the thing shouldn't get shut down are that "other people do worse things and we totally promise we don't have any bad intentions?"
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
Wow, so wrong. Reverse engineering is legal.
If I reversed engineered the formula to Coke, I could sell it as a product that "tastes as good as Coke", I can't just sell it as "Coke".
The DMCA crap about breaking encryption will get it's day in court, until then it's just a scare tactic.
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
darren66 on
Wii U sucks, but my NNID is da66en. Steam is route66. 3DS is 2938-8099-8160.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
Yes it is (basically), which is another hit against encryption laws. If reverse engineering is ok, then breaking encryption should be, too.
EDIT: Something else to think about. I made a post on OCRemix's forums about this, and that got me to thinking. It would be VERY easy (and very legal) for gaming companies to cash in on their copyrighted music and force OCR under, as well as every other gaming remix site. I'm sure the same people saying that ]EE[ is in the wrong would HAVE to agree that OCR is, too. But, just because OCR (or ]EE[, or any other respectable fan art site) is an easy target for copyright lawyers, that doesn't mean that they should spend that time and money focusing on the easy (and well-intentioned) targets instead of shutting down the legit pirates. How would we like it if, every time Tycho and Gabe referenced a game character in their comics, the company holding the copyright slammed down on them? It'd suck. A lot.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
Wow, so wrong. Reverse engineering is legal.
If I reversed engineered the formula to Coke, I could sell it as a product that "tastes as good as Coke", I can't just sell it as "Coke".
The DMCA crap about breaking encryption will get it's day in court, until then it's just a scare tactic.
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
Oh okay. So it's fine because the law making it illegal hasn't been overturned yet. Any other communications from the future you have for us? Who should I bet on for the 2009 World Series?
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
Yes it is (basically), which is another hit against encryption laws. If reverse engineering is ok, then breaking encryption should be, too.
EDIT: Something else to think about. I made a post on OCRemix's forums about this, and that got me to thinking. It would be VERY easy (and very legal) for gaming companies to cash in on their copyrighted music and force OCR under, as well as every other gaming remix site. I'm sure the same people saying that ]EE[ is in the wrong would HAVE to agree that OCR is, too. But, just because OCR (or ]EE[, or any other respectable fan art site) is an easy target for copyright lawyers, that doesn't mean that they should spend that time and money focusing on the easy (and well-intentioned) targets instead of shutting down the legit pirates. How would you guys like it if, every time Tycho and Gabe referenced a game character in their comics, the company holding the copyright slammed down on them? It'd suck. A lot.
To address the latter, fair use and parody covers that.
As for reverse engineering, the whole point is to not use any part of the original. That's why it's called engineering, and not copying. That's why companies use intellectual clean rooms and keep meticulous records when they go to undermine another company's similar software. Then they can't be accused of wholesale lifting their code and have their pants sued off.
Oh okay. So it's fine because the law making it illegal hasn't been overturned yet. Any other communications from the future you have for us? Who should I bet on for the 2009 World Series?
Well I was going to let this slide, but since you've got an attitude about this, please tell me what Coke has to do with encryption.
darren66 on
Wii U sucks, but my NNID is da66en. Steam is route66. 3DS is 2938-8099-8160.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
I highly highly doubt Nintendo actually cared about these guys breaking their precious encryption. If they honestly cared about their encryptions they would have been all over the highly publicized M3 translation. That's only the means by which they're threatening these guys. So, sure, Nintendo has the upper legal ground here. But this is still basically a dick move on Nintendo's part.
This was a project by and for Brawl fans. It is not as though someone with no interest in Brawl was going to pirate the game just to play a game they don't like with different skins. Nintendo's just got their panties in a wad about people messing with their beloved characters. Maybe these people should have stuck to modifying snake and sonic.
I highly highly doubt Nintendo actually cared about these guys breaking their precious encryption. If they honestly cared about their encryptions they would have been all over the highly publicized M3 translation. That's only the means by which they're threatening these guys. So, sure, Nintendo has the upper legal ground here. But this is still basically a dick move on Nintendo's part.
This was a project by and for Brawl fans. It is not as though someone with no interest in Brawl was going to pirate the game just to play a game they don't like with different skins. Nintendo's just got their panties in a wad about people messing with their beloved characters. Maybe these people should have stuck to modifying snake and sonic.
How do you know they didn't send a C&D to whoever did the M3 translation and they didn't just ignore it?
Didn't they have a thing on that site that basically spelled out they they would stop if nintendo asked?
The earthbound guys actually hold nintendo in pretty high esteem.
They would have taken it as a sign that nintendo still had interest in localizing the game themselves.
Oh okay. So it's fine because the law making it illegal hasn't been overturned yet. Any other communications from the future you have for us? Who should I bet on for the 2009 World Series?
Well I was going to let this slide, but since you've got an attitude about this, please tell me what Coke has to do with encryption.
Absolutely nothing.
However, breaking and entering their offices to steal the formula to tell other people how to make it, and breaking encryption to tell other people how to make Smash do share more than a few similarities. Mainly the unarguably illegal act of breaking into another person's property and rooting around for anything that could be valuable to distribute to other people.
I highly highly doubt Nintendo actually cared about these guys breaking their precious encryption. If they honestly cared about their encryptions they would have been all over the highly publicized M3 translation. That's only the means by which they're threatening these guys. So, sure, Nintendo has the upper legal ground here. But this is still basically a dick move on Nintendo's part.
This was a project by and for Brawl fans. It is not as though someone with no interest in Brawl was going to pirate the game just to play a game they don't like with different skins. Nintendo's just got their panties in a wad about people messing with their beloved characters. Maybe these people should have stuck to modifying snake and sonic.
How do you know they didn't send a C&D to whoever did the M3 translation and they didn't just ignore it?
It sucks, sure, but really they are changing things that are Nintendo's property. Isn't that illegal? I mean, even though they aren't charging for it, they are still changing something that's copyrighted.
I dunno. Either way it sucks (3 guys doing all that themselves?!) but in the end that's what happens.
It's a modification to a product I own. I'm taking a piece of my property, changing it in a way that pleases me, and making use of it. None of that is illegal.
Where it gets shady is the whole .iso part. The problem is that on a PC title, you are modifying the part that is installed on your hard drive. That is, the part that the program copies onto the drive for you. Nothing they can do about you modifying that. In this case, you're looking at modifying a copy of software, and then re-copying it to another medium. This is beyond our rights as consumers, sadly, even if it's a copy of our own disc.
Typical nintendo. These modders should concentrate on companies that take a friendlier stance to mods, or at least looks the other way.
Like Sony and Microsoft.
No, like Valve.
Valve makes money both through the profits of their own games sold via Steam and through taking a cut of out non-Valve game sales via Steam. The more people use mods, the more they use Steam, encouraging them to buy more Steam games. When new Valve games come out, being able to use them to play the latest mods becomes a great added value and an incentive to purchase. Since Valve releases games so rarely, mod downloads can hardly be said to cannibalize on sales of Valve titles, and in many cases Valve even absorbs the mods and makes a profit on them.
Nintendo (and Sony and Microsoft) for the most part make their money through software licensing fees. Nintendo makes a small profit on each console sold, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Although mods would add perceived value to the console, that is irrelevant, as mods would likely directly impact sales of licensed games. There is also the legal issue that Nintendo does not want to be held responsible for user-created content - there's a reason that very few console games let you publish your own content publicly over the internet (LittleBigPlanet and GH:WT come to mind, but GH:WT songs seem to be taken down for copyright infringement faster than they're put up)
I do feel that Nintendo is making a huge mistake by not providing a way for small independent developers to develop for the Wii (Xbox Live Community Games is a great example of how to do this), and I think that Nintendo's legal department surely has better things to do than taking down small fan projects like this, but it isn't nearly as simple as "why can't Nintendo be like Valve?"
Posts
Fair Dealings/Use covers a lot of things, but this wouldn't be one of them. This would all probably fall under derivative works, which infringe on the IP owner's copyright. Not only that, but they're communicating that derivative work to the public.
That, and the companies aren't friendly with them. Microsoft prevents you from using your own hard drive on a 360, and Sony seems to release daily patches in an attempt to defeat PSP piracy. This is just Nintendo doing the same thing.
Well, IP is in the state it's in because people didn't know or didn't care about the laws being passed, so lets chalk this up as a win for the precipitation of change.
you kow what else had all of this time, effort, love, and energy go into the project?
yeah. totally joking here. joke post
So, yeah... It is in the spirit of change, I suppose.
Godwin. Thread's over folks. Catch you all later.
No. That's pretty much exactly what much of copyright law is all about. It's just a little simpler when it's physical breaking and entering instead of breaking into code. You're still committing an illegal act and you're still not allowed to reveal what you learned, even if you did discover the formula to Coke or whatever the holy grail of information is these days.
What they don't seem to understand is that Nintendo tries to crack down on other crap.
They send C&Ds and they just get ignored. Since it's usually nebulous as to who these people actually are because they're quite aware what they're doing is illegal, Nintendo has little recourse but to either let it go or send another (also ignored) C&D. There's also the fact that they'd be rather hesitant to take people to court because even if they win, there's no guarantee something might not happen to marginally or greatly weaken the legal power of the things you're supposed to agree to when obtaining their software and hardware.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
Yeah, Hitler laughed too. Well, maybe he didn't because I've never actually seen a picture of him laughing. He seems like he wouldn't be very fun at parties.
Yes. The obvious lesson here is to never try.
Yeah that's great but let's face it these guys aren't revealing nintendo's Super Coding Secrets or whatever. Somehow I don't think the law was really meant to protect Tiger from people hacking cussing onto furbies.
EDIT: This is the USA. Every law these days is made to protect corporations at the expense of the consumer.
Wow, so wrong. Reverse engineering is legal.
If I reversed engineered the formula to Coke, I could sell it as a product that "tastes as good as Coke", I can't just sell it as "Coke".
The DMCA crap about breaking encryption will get it's day in court, until then it's just a scare tactic.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
And the reasons given for why the thing shouldn't get shut down are that "other people do worse things and we totally promise we don't have any bad intentions?"
And you guys are mad at Nintendo? REALLY?
Reverse engineering is not the same as breaking encryption protocols.
Yes. :evil:
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
EDIT: Something else to think about. I made a post on OCRemix's forums about this, and that got me to thinking. It would be VERY easy (and very legal) for gaming companies to cash in on their copyrighted music and force OCR under, as well as every other gaming remix site. I'm sure the same people saying that ]EE[ is in the wrong would HAVE to agree that OCR is, too. But, just because OCR (or ]EE[, or any other respectable fan art site) is an easy target for copyright lawyers, that doesn't mean that they should spend that time and money focusing on the easy (and well-intentioned) targets instead of shutting down the legit pirates. How would we like it if, every time Tycho and Gabe referenced a game character in their comics, the company holding the copyright slammed down on them? It'd suck. A lot.
Unless it's strawberry shortcake in which case it's heavily encrypted.
Oh okay. So it's fine because the law making it illegal hasn't been overturned yet. Any other communications from the future you have for us? Who should I bet on for the 2009 World Series?
To address the latter, fair use and parody covers that.
As for reverse engineering, the whole point is to not use any part of the original. That's why it's called engineering, and not copying. That's why companies use intellectual clean rooms and keep meticulous records when they go to undermine another company's similar software. Then they can't be accused of wholesale lifting their code and have their pants sued off.
Remember the fiasco over a suicidegirl listing metroid, I think it was, as her favorite game?
Well I was going to let this slide, but since you've got an attitude about this, please tell me what Coke has to do with encryption.
Neo Geo Big Red owners club.
2009 PAX Puzzle Quest Champion
I have beat Rygar on the NES and many of you have not.
And Nintendo has a tight asshole.
that is all.
This was a project by and for Brawl fans. It is not as though someone with no interest in Brawl was going to pirate the game just to play a game they don't like with different skins. Nintendo's just got their panties in a wad about people messing with their beloved characters. Maybe these people should have stuck to modifying snake and sonic.
How do you know they didn't send a C&D to whoever did the M3 translation and they didn't just ignore it?
The earthbound guys actually hold nintendo in pretty high esteem.
They would have taken it as a sign that nintendo still had interest in localizing the game themselves.
Absolutely nothing.
However, breaking and entering their offices to steal the formula to tell other people how to make it, and breaking encryption to tell other people how to make Smash do share more than a few similarities. Mainly the unarguably illegal act of breaking into another person's property and rooting around for anything that could be valuable to distribute to other people.
(cherry flavoring + coke)
Nintendo holds the copyright to all the material.
Why is this even an issue?
This interview.
It's a modification to a product I own. I'm taking a piece of my property, changing it in a way that pleases me, and making use of it. None of that is illegal.
Where it gets shady is the whole .iso part. The problem is that on a PC title, you are modifying the part that is installed on your hard drive. That is, the part that the program copies onto the drive for you. Nothing they can do about you modifying that. In this case, you're looking at modifying a copy of software, and then re-copying it to another medium. This is beyond our rights as consumers, sadly, even if it's a copy of our own disc.
Valve makes money both through the profits of their own games sold via Steam and through taking a cut of out non-Valve game sales via Steam. The more people use mods, the more they use Steam, encouraging them to buy more Steam games. When new Valve games come out, being able to use them to play the latest mods becomes a great added value and an incentive to purchase. Since Valve releases games so rarely, mod downloads can hardly be said to cannibalize on sales of Valve titles, and in many cases Valve even absorbs the mods and makes a profit on them.
Nintendo (and Sony and Microsoft) for the most part make their money through software licensing fees. Nintendo makes a small profit on each console sold, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Although mods would add perceived value to the console, that is irrelevant, as mods would likely directly impact sales of licensed games. There is also the legal issue that Nintendo does not want to be held responsible for user-created content - there's a reason that very few console games let you publish your own content publicly over the internet (LittleBigPlanet and GH:WT come to mind, but GH:WT songs seem to be taken down for copyright infringement faster than they're put up)
I do feel that Nintendo is making a huge mistake by not providing a way for small independent developers to develop for the Wii (Xbox Live Community Games is a great example of how to do this), and I think that Nintendo's legal department surely has better things to do than taking down small fan projects like this, but it isn't nearly as simple as "why can't Nintendo be like Valve?"