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Moving to Canada: Evil or Not?
Dyrwen66
the other's insaneDenver CORegistered User regular
the other's insaneDenver CORegistered User regular
So my wife and I may be moving to Canada once we get our lives in order. We tend to err on the side of caution, but also curiosity. We've come to a weird area where we've stopped to think: "What evil has Canada done in the past?" Since we're leaving America, a place we (arguably) disagree with on many varied issues because of what they've done for the last 60 years or more, we figured its best as noble pessimists to ask and figure out where Canada sits on the fence of history.
Outside of British rule and the possible massacres of natives in the past, what has Canada done lately that we might need to know about? Just a general inquiry, and obviously not all evil is big here, but any will do. So H/A, what dirt do I need to know about? Wikipedia has failed me, and it seems so quick to judge other countries, so I'm paranoid. Do help, thanks (eh?).
Outside of British rule and the possible massacres of natives in the past, what has Canada done lately that we might need to know about? Just a general inquiry, and obviously not all evil is big here, but any will do. So H/A, what dirt do I need to know about? Wikipedia has failed me, and it seems so quick to judge other countries, so I'm paranoid. Do help, thanks (eh?).
Just an ancient PA person who doesn't leave the house much.
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Japanese Canadians were interned during WWII.
It took until 1940 for women to be granted voting rights in all provinces.
We failed to stop the Rwanda genocide as part of the UN peacekeeping mission there.
There was a 1993 beating of a Somalian teen by Canadians as part of the UN peacekeeping mission there.
We are currently engaged in Afghanistan, so depending on your perspective, that might be evil.
Really, most of our evil seems to be reserved for aboriginal Canadians, not just in the past. As of 2008, we rank 63rd in the world in our treatment of aboriginals according to the United Nations human development index.
Beyond 60 years, there's been some nastier stuff. Chinese head tax, oppression of the Metis, shipping off of the Acadians, denied the SS St. Louis. World War II really filtered that stuff out - a lot of racist policies got changed in the wake of WWII, such as policies applying to Sikhs and other south Asians. There's probably more stuff that I've missed though.
As a general rule though, we're a very moderate people who are - at times - painfully polite. You could do worse. Also, we have seasons.
Edit: but yeah the point about racism towards aboriginals is very true. A lot of Canadians look at natives the way I hear the deep south (still) looks at African Americans. Unfortunately it seems to go both ways up here, with natives having a deep distrust of white folks. I remember once I was workin' in a gas station and a guy walks in with a little kid. The man points at me and says, "you know not to trust white guys, don't you? 'Cause they just want your money and to keep you down."
I didn't say it's never too early to start teaching your kids to hate, but someone clearly taught that man quite a bit. I wish I could say that was the only time I'd seen an example of it, but yeah - as a culture we've still got some shit to work out.
Ultimately Canada seems pretty decent, comparatively. The healthcare system is a driving force for why we'd want to move up there, and the fact that living in WA now; moving to Vancouver mightn't be that different culturally. Luckily it isn't too important as to whether a country is "evil" or not really stops whether we'd move there or not, given the fact that most government policies don't affect lower-class laborers/artists like my wife and I, heh, but it's useful to know some of the facts that I'm not really aware of in American culture. Haven't really gotten any primers on Canadian culture/history outside of comedies.
(We don't talk like that.)
(Eh.)
It tends to get a bad rap from the people who use it. Some of it not deserved. In my experience the people who complain either have never experienced anything else, or are more used to a multi-tier system and they can afford the top tier. I have very little personal experience in any other province, but I will say this of at least Ontario health care. You are expected to be an advocate for yourself as a patient. Having a family doctor is a great way to get your foot in the healthcare door and is almost a requirement, but don't expect them to be gods. If you need a specialist, ask for a referral, if you're concerned about something, ask for more information. It's very important not to just sit back and let the system take care of you, it frequently fails to do that. Stay on top of your own health concerns and address them with your Family Doctor. If you feel they aren't taking them as seriously as you'd like, ask for more information, and express your concern. There is a lot of care covered by our provincial health insurance, but you need to do some leg work yourself.
If you come to an ER you'll experience long wait times. To avoid this, familiarize yourself with surrounding walk-in clinics and urgent care centers. People don't use them enough and they have fantastic services to take care of the simple things that people end up waiting for hours in the ER with. Again, you need to be your own advocate and do the legwork first.
Now that I've typed this out, it seems to me that this advice would really make sense anywhere, but just so you know coming into Canadian health care. It's not all milk and honey.
Considering that most Canadians don't even know we are a constitutional monarchy...
:P
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
@OP: I moved from Bay Area California to Edmonton in 2005. Mileage may vary, but I've found Canadians to be polite and nice people with excellent healthcare. No, it's not perfect, but when I went into a medicentre on a Saturday afternoon, I got a diagnosis and a prescription and walked out less than 20 minutes later with medicine that folks in California had never figured out I needed, and for which I paid absolutely nothing. (Mind you, work has an additional healthcare deal that covers prescriptions, so mileage is going to vary here.)
No place is going to be perfect, but I've found living in Canada to be absolutely great unless I can't get my car out of the snow. (And on more than one occasion, total strangers have stopped to help me push.)
You should watch the video of the guy who got tazered, it was not for "no good reason".
Shouldn't be any big deal there, given that I've lived in America all my life and have pledged myself to all sorts of nationalist trite with or without my knowledge, heh. It'd almost be strange to have some semblance of pride over where my tax dollars are being spent for once.
@ Tak & Sign: Glad to hear some perks about healthcare. We don't have any major problems right now, but as continuously poor people, the knowledge that sooner or later we'll be sick and be up to our necks in bills that we cannot pay worries us to some extent, so just knowing there's at least some place to go would be a great life-saver. It'd end up a lot easier to keep up with our health with a family doctor in the first place, knowing that we wouldn't have to scrounge up $100 bucks to go down and see if we've got a weird sickness.
Though moving to Vancouver, I might avoid having too much trouble with snow; given the climate with Olympia. (though we did get a foot of snow last week, where a stranger pushed me car outa the ice.. so who knows)
Canada is a completely sovereign country in all but technicalities. The governor general, who does have some authority, is not sent down by Britain, but is a Canadian who is nominated from within Canada and is simply rubber-stamped by the British monarchy.
I do know that you need to do a pledge of allegiance as an employee of the federal government. Bit odd, that.
Something of a military hotspot, there.
Depends what part of Canada you are talking about. :P
People who get angry about the seal killing are stupid. The seals overpopulate anyways, its the ecologically correct thing to do to kill them.
edit: sorry for double post.
Oh I'm all for it as long as it's not excessively cruel, I completely agree with what you're saying, I was just commenting that some people see it as evil.
Not likely. It's about as likely as a dust up with the US or Russia over the same issues. Less so probably, given that they sided with us to refute some Russian claims earlier in 2008.
The treatment of aboriginals is the worst of it, yeah. It's always been well intentioned, but just poorly handled and a bit of a shame. But I mean, it's not like people wouldn't like to find a way to make things better.
And that dude who got tasered, well. Cops overreacted. Guess what: Any country with police will have them occasionally overreact. The key is that there was a public inquiry and a full investigation. Whether you agree with the outcome or not, an honest attempt was made to get to the bottom of it.
And regarding healthcare, the only people whining are people with no clue what the alternative is. Canadian healthcare is very, very good.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Here in Alberta at least, there is a lot of racism - Aboriginals, Sikhs, Indians, Arabians, all non-whites basically.
I can't imagine a more multi-cultural upbringing than the one I had in Vancouver. I was the token white guy in my group of friends. Not to say everything was sunshine and lolly pops and everyone was polite, but I don't think there was any real hate.
It depends on your generation, and in general, Canadian racism is probably a little more subtle and less confrontational than it may be down south. There is racism around, its just not so
blatant. I grew up in Vancouver suburbs, in a multi-cultural area as well, but if you talk to peoples parents or grandparents, and even some people of your own generation, there's still a lot of subtle racism there.
On the tazing: A full investigation. Of cops, by cops. No charges, soooo suprising. But as Than said, this is off topic, and as you're not polish or likely to be armed with a stapler at the airport, your life is probably safe.
to Hippofant: You can't blame Canada for not stopping the Rwandese Genocide. The small force we had in the country was in no way capable of doing that, and was under UN Command in the first place.
Also, to the OP, any country you think about moving to is going to have dark chapters in its history. Unless of course you can find one not populated by humans.
Oh, and on the Royal Family. Monarchy of Canada
I think it should be said that the division that did that was completely disbanded, a rather not evil act that most countries would not do.
Canada is great BTW
Richmond's steveston harbor used to be where they kept the jap/cad's during the war.
now its a beautiful warf that serves the bitchin'ist fish 'n' chips in the entire province
The Japanese were interned in the US as well. Sure, it seems like a "well they did it too!" excuse, but since it's where he's moving from it seems fairly pointless to make a big deal over this.
Canada supplied Romeo Dallaire, the leader of the UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda, as well as a military force, which is alot more than can be said for other countries. Furthermore, the failure of the mission in Rwanda had very little to do with Canada's involvement. The fact that a large majority of the military force provided to UNAMIR was Belgian (a former colonial power over Rwanda) was in direct violation of many of the UNs regulations, and further encouraged violence towards the peace keepers. When this violence towards peace keepers began (particularly the murder of 10 Belgian soldiers by the Rwandan army, which has been linked by some to the alleged shooting down of the Rwandan president's plane by the Belgian military) the majority of the global peace keeping force was pulled.
Therefore, if anyone is to blame for the failure of the peacekeeping mission in Rwanda it is the UN for failing to enforce their regulations, the Belgian military for failing to comply with UN regulations, and/or the global community for failing to provide adequate support and/or withdrawing their support when it was needed most.
Furthermore, I hardly see failure to stop something bad as "evil." I mean, did Canadians stop the tsunami? Hurricane Katrina? 9/11? Does that make any of those the fault of Canadians? The fact of the matter is Canada TRIED to help, but for reasons outside of its control was unable to bring an end to the conflict.
But I digress...
Good Things About Canada/Canadians I Can Remember Off The Top Of My Head:
Didn't wait for the traditional parliamentary channels to approve gay marriage, the prime minister just made note that it was constitutionally acceptable and could be done immediately.
Health care system - Doesn't cover as much as Britain's (stuff like prescriptions) but most of what is left out of the public system will be covered by a lot of employer's health insurance.
Education system - According to some tv commercial a few years ago the top in the world (they claimed to have some standardized global test to prove it, not sure how true it is but whatever.)
Publicly subsidized housing/unemployment insurance - Not sure how well it works since I haven't used it, but from what I hear provides a lot more than in the US?
Bad Things I Can Remember:
It's still illegal to have anal sex with anyone you aren't married to until you turn 18 (it's 16 for straight sex, a homophobic leftover from the pre-gay marriage time.)
Half of the population still thinks we elect our prime minister, which became evident at the many pro-conservative rallies lately.
Unelected senate - basically a retirement home with pay and benefits for party supporters. Can shoot down any bill passed by the elected members in the House of Commons.
Seriously though, I was just listing events that might impact Drywen's opinion. What he thinks of them or whether he cares or not about them is up to him. (I assume Drywen's a he anyways, or otherwise, she'd definitely have significant incentive to move up here.)
Oh hey, also, we'll commit horrible acts in the name of hockey.
I know this is gonna seem like I'm trying to rag on you or something, but I'm not. All I have to say about this is its generalizing the behaviour of a few individuals to the attitude of Canadians in general. Most of us wouldn't slash somebodies ankle for an advantage in a hockey game, nor would we permanently paralyze someone. This is similar to me saying "Americans will rape, kill, and have sex with the dead bodies of young boys they meet at gay bars." and linking a wikipedia document about Jeffrey Dahmer.
Oh also, it should also be mentioned that Bertuzzi was charged criminally for his actions, and therefore it was acknowledged that this isn't acceptable behaviour in hockey.
I know you're just pointing out 'evil' things that 'Canada' did, but this isn't so much something Canada did as something an individual who happened to be a Canadian citizen did.
Do you actually live in Alberta? I've been here my whole life and this couldn't be further from the truth.
The majority of racism I've come across has only been in jest and any real racial hatred is very much frowned upon.
And don't get me wrong, The Canadian people and the Canadian Forces are not the problem. There have been many instances where Canadian Forces soldiers (usually during a UN Mission) have been hampered by the government's unwillingness to act, or by the UN (examples: Rwanda, Croatia, Bosnia).
Lt. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, commander of the UN forces in Rwanda at the time of the Genocide, is considered a Hero by many Canadians for disobeying a Direct Order from the UN Secretary General to pull all of his forces out. Instead he rallied the remaining UN contingent to defend what areas they could (which was only around 260 people by then) while he continued to try and negotiate a ceasefire.
Yeah I don't know where people get this idea from that Alberta is some sort of right wing, white bread....oh nevermind. But seriously, I've only experienced truly backwoods closed minded racism in some small towns. Both Calgary and Edmonton have A LOT of different cultures livings in them. Edmonton has a huge African community, as well as eastern and western European, and of course lots of Asian and South Asian. The most pronounced racism I've seen in Edmonton is against Aboriginals, well that and Calgarians.
I never finish anyth
As someone who has moved from Montreal to Calgary i can say that I have seen much more racism back in Quebec than here in Alberta. I am French-Canadian and and thought that would be a bit of an issue here but apart from the occasional jab from co-workers It is never brought up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acadians
Also, I never knew until just now that the existence of Cajuns (and their at times delicious food) was a direct result of this Acadian incident. Interesting!
Alberta/(ans) have a greater fear of the "dreaded east" and and how they're "stealin' all Alberta's wealth" than any general form of racism.
Really though any area will have its own "brand" of local racism based on that area. There is more prejudice against natives in Edmonton than say, Toronto simply because there are a lot of Natives in Alberta. There is more prejudice against blacks in Toronto (compared to anywhere in Alberta...we're hardly talking an epidemic here) simply because there is a larger population of them here.
Yeah also, the Calgary/Edmonton rivalry is one of the biggest pissing contests in Canada. Its like Toronto and Ottawa with hockey.... except with everything.
That's because the oilers suck, the Eskimo's suck, west Edmonton mall sucks and everyone there smells funny...... Or that's what I hear anyway....
The most useless giant maze of a mall, so massive its just a pain in the ass to go there unless its your first time ever. No one I know in Edmonton actually likes going there (Fuck I didn't even like going down the main road it was on, slowest bullshit ever) and there are lots of smaller malls where you can get your shit done with much less hassle.
BUT!!!! EDMONTON HAS ONE OMFG WE NEED A BETTER ONE!!!!!
If that doesn't prove how retarded the whole dick-waving competition is, i don't know what will.
And yeah, note that down for evil things Canada has done.