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a direct assault on your eyeballs

ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
edited March 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
1)

Sentient life (as difficult as defining this therm is) in space is a fact.
The direct proof of that would be... you. (rudely lables the reader as evidence A)

You may object that is not extraterrestrial life, but that does not really matter. Its not only possible, it has happened one time for sure. Here.

Some may argue that this is very uncommon.
The enviromental parameters are rare.
Needs life always the same enviroment?

On our planet alone we have numerous extreme habitats ranging from being buried in the bones
of mountains to high pressure deep sea enviroments, from photosyntesis depending to
geothermal-mineral habitats as well as inside volcanic or even acidic habitats.

Examples:

Farthest underground:
Bacillus Infernus - Thermophile (high temperature thriving organism).
Up to two miles underground. Discovered in Mines, south Africa.

Living without sunlight:
Hydrothermal vent communities. Entire communitis of organisms wich thrive on minerals released from volcanic activity in the depths of the sea. Adapted to immense pressure, high heat and low oxygen eviroment its a completely self sufficient ecosystem in parallel existance to our own. Lifeforms like these are expected to be found in the seas of Jupiter's moons because the enviroment is expected to be the same. Those are also the first candidates for "space seed life" for the same reasons.

Submarine methane ice:
Methane ice worms. Found in methane rich ice errupting from the seafloor in the gulf of Mexico, thriving on methane ice in the depths of the frozen seafloor far away from sunlight.

Most Acidic:
Acidophiles. Used to thrive in enviroments as asidic as battery acid. The clouds of Venus are theorized to be a "sweet" spot for them.

Hotest:
Archaea Strain 121 (hyperthermophile). Thrives on hot and/or acidic water. 235 degrees Farenheit (113 degrees Celsius) habitat. Found in Yellowstone, Wyoming hot springs.

Radiation resistant:
D.Radiodurans ("Conan Bacteria"). Able to withstand 1.5 million rads. Found in Hanford nuclear storage site. Quite a surprise.



Currently scientists belive there is a high probability for life elsewhere in this solar
system. The focus of the attention is Jupiter's moon Europa. As of 26.2.2009 that was
expanded Ganymede and Callisto bringing the number of estimated extraterrestrial oceans in
our solar system to 3.

Quicktime link (NASA):http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/on_demand_video.html?param=http://mfile.akamai.com/20356/mov/etouchsyst2.download.akamai.com/18355/qt.nasa-global/ccvideos/jpl/europa20090218-480cc.mov&_id=184110&_title=The%20Europa%20Jupiter%20System%20Mission&_tnimage=312885main_eur-vid-th.jpg

A joint mission between NASA and ESA is set for 2009 to launch two probes exploring the surface of jupiters moons.

Whilst too far from the sun to have an ecosystem based on sunlight or its heat, gravitional forces from orbiting Jupiter keep the core molten-hot-liquid. And this particular moon has a serveral kilometers thick ice crust, suggesting vast liquid subterrain water supplies. Kinda a subterrain sea (compare to hydrothermal vent communities, methane ice worms from the link above).

So we have one planet where life is present (Earth), one wich can be made habitable in theory (Mars, lacks atmosphere but is similar in climate) and another one wich has a good chance of own ecosystems (Europa).

The conclusion suggesting this is a rare occurence is highly questionable and it seems life is not quite as dependant on certain enviromental factors as people think. The main factor seems ongoing energy transfer, the enviroment seems to play a neglectable role.



2)

Why should a civilization take the route to space travel, and how?

This is not going to be about warpdrives or wormholes.

Its about stars. Stars as our sun, or any other star have a limited life or rather burntime.

Stars burn by nuclear or fusion reactions going on in their core. The dependant factor here is mass.

So if the lifetime of a star is limited, the inhabitants of a solar system containing such a star (yes, US for example, 4 billion years) have to develop a way to leave their cradle before the star burns down and total disaster strikes on stellar scale. So, spacetravel is A LOGIC CONSEQUENCE OF EVOLUTION BECAUSE IN ALMOST ALL CASES A RACE CAN'T CONTINUE ITS EXISTANCE AT SOME POINT WITH A FADING SUN.

A hydrothermal vent community may evolve in an eviroment without a deadly star (or rather after the primary star has faded), but unfortunately that is not the case in our solar system.

Thats no exaggeration.
And it happens to ALL solar systems.
Thats a very stong motivation to leave the solar system.

No that we have determined the WHY, its up to the HOW.

Most people think about spacetravel like a trip by car or plane. You enter the spacecraft and whe you arrive you leave it. Maybe you also do the trip back.

Distances in cosmic therms are bizarre. So naturaly humans looking for a super fast propulsion - particulary one they can survive. We know this is not working very well.

In the end this is not the issue. Life on Earth is taking place in a small bubble of habitable space. Thats also how serious spacetravel has to be done. Generations living and dying serving aboard ageneration vehicle.

Another possibility might be hibernation. There are species living on our planet wich can be frozen solid and wich are technically dead, but if the ice thaws they reanimate. Usually ice crystals would damage the cell tissues beyond functionality. Recent research turned up a the specimen use a certain sugar molecule surpressing that effect, rendering cellular structure intact.

Wood frog is the common name given to Rana sylvatica. The wood frog has a broad North American distribution, extending from the southern Appalachians to the boreal forest. As for other northern frogs hibernating close to the surface in soil and/or leaf litter, wood frogs tolerate the freezing of their blood and other tissues. Urea is accumulated in tissues in preparation for overwintering, and liver glycogen is converted in large quantities to glucose in response to internal ice formation. Both urea and glucose act as "cryoprotectants" to limit the amount of ice that forms and to reduce osmotic shrinkage of cells. Frogs can survive multiple freeze/thaw events during winter if not more than about 65% of the total body water freezes.

Tardigrades or ‘water bears', rotifers, nematodes, some springtails and other tiny invertebrates can survive extremely cold conditions. During increasing desiccation, they can shut down their metabolism to undetectable levels. When tardigrades enter anhydrobiosis, during a process of sloe dehydration, the cuticle forms a tun-like structure. Trehalose accumulates and may help to stabilize phospholipids and proteins. Wax extrusion on the cuticle surface reduces transpiration. 5-15% of the initial body water is retained during anhydrobiosis, when tardigrades can survive in non-aquatic environments and may tolerate exposure to freezing temperatures of liquid gases. Some species also survive such temperatures in their hydrated state. Some species from Greenland and Antarctica may overwinter both in a hydrated frozen state and in anhydrobiosis. During the summer, some tardigrades live in cryoconite holes, formed on the surface of glaciers. These species are freeze tolerant, as their habitats are permanently frozen during the winter.Hydrated and dehydrated specimens of three species of tardigrades (Echiniscus jenningsi,Macrobiotus furciger and Diphascon chilene) from Muhlig-Hofmannfjella, Dronning Maud Land,Antarctica had high survival rates after exposure to -22°C for 600 days, while dehydrated specimens survived 3040 days at this temperature. More E. jenningsi died when exposed from 7 to 150 days at -80°C, while mortalities of the two other species did not change. Hydrated specimens of all species were rapidly killed at -180° C, but all species exhibited survived well in the dehydrated state after 14 days at -180° C. It seems that hydrated tardigrades can survive extended periods at low temperatures, and dehydrated specimens are even better adapted to survive overwintering on Antarctic nunataks.

Perhaps this trait could be implanted into a human by genetic engineering, giving rise to a spacefaring offshoot of our species tailored for surviving hibernation to cross the vast distances sleeping in their cold storage chambers.

Instead of dreaming about pincering space-time those two possibilites are very well achivable. Whilst we ponder how best to unlock the gate to cross the vast distances of space the door is indeed unlocked.

A constant throughout the universe with only few exceptions, drawing nearly all civilizations (and us along with it) twoards becoming a spacefaring civlization or become extinguished.It is doable and it has been and probably is being done because it is a neccesarity for survival.


3)

The reason for leaving the cradle of a solar system is a universal rule. If there are other civilizations we can assume a good deal of them face sooner or later the same dilemma.

And if that is the case... how will they decide their destination?

We look to spectral analysis for evidence like ozone layers. We are currently destroying ours but we make up for it by broadcasting radio transmissions.

We can consider Earth a viable target for those reasons.

If we are a viable target, we might have ALREADY been visited. The main problem with a race newly accustomed to spaceflight there are a lot of alien encouters being reported for doubtful reasons. For those reasons you can distregard all of the current reports because there is too much motivation for a hoax.

Its almost funny to think that some alien spacecraft could land here and the visistors roam freely because nobody would consider such a report serious. It might even not be reported at all because eyewitnesses will most likely be considered beyond sanity.

Considering we are not looking for human technology we can expand the timescale indefinetly. With such a timescale involved you can look to archaeology (especially equatorial regions seem interesting for obvious reasons) and ancient records (especially religious text, because what could an visitor possibly other reffered to as a god by ancient mythology?).

Exploring this area has a major negative bias, and is therefore avoided by so called respectable research. I can't help myself but to wonder how respectable resarch can be if it avoids material for reasons of reputation.


religious texts:

The bible story of Ezekiel and his abduction:

A throne in a diamond (seat in a cupola), wheels wich go in all four directions (there were no motors at that time and it is a rather strange but possible wheel design and VERY effective - the wheel does not need to turn, it just uses the other xis for rolling), men in suits of "ore" (enviroment suits), and a rotating "city in the sky" is mentioned (artificial gravity) , even if he did not know what he was writing about WE know by now through our technology. You can read it up in your bible if you like.

Since the text is too old for being a hoax and the level of knowledge is impossible at that period i consider this valid evidence. the strongest point for me being the description of the rotation of a place high in the skys. It seems to have slipped into the religious text because there was no other explaination at that time. Its in sync with todays science. And it are THREE examples in ONE text. Thats surely a lot of coincidence.

And the idea arises if it was intended to end up in a religious text. They captured a high priest, probably so it ENDS UP in the religious texts, because that KEEPS IT RECORDED, so that a later point somebody with an more advanced viewpoint will struble about it.




The Bhagavata Purana

The Bhagavatam takes the form of a story being told by a great Rishi known as Suta Goswami, to a host of assembled sages, who ask him questions in regard to the various avatars, or descents of Vishnu within the mortal world. Suta Goswami then relates the Bhagavatam as he has heard it from another sage, called Sukadeva. The language of the Purana closely resembles Vedic which may indicate an early dating or a variety of other possible possible reasons to resemble the archaic texts.

Hindu religious tradition holds the Bhagavata Purana to be one of the works of Vyasa written at the beginning of Kali Yuga (about 3100 BC). The Srimad Bhagavatam speaks to several topics that have in modern times been topics of scientific speculation and research.

The Third Canto (Chapter 11) offers calculations of time, pegging the briefest unit to the interval needed for atom physics, the longest to the entire duration of the universe.

An example of time dilation (a topic in modern physics) appears in the Ninth Canto, wherein King Kakudmi and his daughter Revati travel to Brahmaloka to meet the god Brahma. After spending a short time in Brahmaloka, King Kakudmi and Revati discover that during their short stay there, many thousands of years have passed on earth and all the people he once knew have died long ago, and even their names had been forgotten in the mist of time.

Knowledge of time dilation became public with Einstein's relativity theories. GPS wouldn't work without the formulas. Thats a "little" too high tech for 3100 BC in my taste. These are just two of many examples from the ancient past. Far too much and to accurate to be mere coincidence.

So, the right question to ask is definetly:

This knowledge, from where ?


Another example:


The ancient ruins of Puma Puncu:


This is Inca (1438 – 1533 AD):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inka_mauern_cuzco.jpg


This is Puma Puncu (10000 - 4000 BC, neolitc stoneage):
http://www.laue-verlagshaus.com/deutsch/?page_id=19

The material used is diorit. Diorit is hardness 8 (10 being diamond). I like to bring your attention to the drills in the stone pieces. Look at its symetric design, it looks like concrete blocks. This is supposed to be made by humans in stoneage.

I also like to bring your attention to the slits wich seem to have been for some kind of brackets. It must have been metal or an alloy.

For a comparison:

Compareable drills have been found in Abusir as well, about 15 km from the Gizeh Pyramids.

The material here is also diorit and there are also drilled holes.

There are plausible explainations for drilling mechanisms able to achive this. The archaeologist Denys A. Stocks has rebuild some of the ancient tools and was able to prove it can be done with relatively primitive tools (Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt):

There have been numerous speculations about how the Egyptians worked these hard stones; Denys Stocks, a specialist in ancient technology, has reported on the results of many years’ experiments in making and using tools like those used in Pharaonic times. In a new book,

Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology, he notes that flint, one of the earliest material used by mankind, is still one of the best materials for working the hardest stones.“Flint chisels, punches and scrapers were the only tools capable of cutting and incising hard stone objects, including obelisks and statuary, particularly those of igneous stones such as granite, porphyry, diorite and basalt,” he says. “Craftworkers developed practices that relied on a diverse range of natural materials obtained from the local environment, of which the most important were desert sand, flint nodules, and copper ores.”

The sand was used as an abrasive, with reed or copper tubular drills and copper stone-cutting saws, to work stone vessels, sarcophagi and building stone such as that used for the Pyramids. The waste products included a fine powder mixing sand, stone and copper particles, which seems to have been the raw material used for making the blue-green glazed compound known as faience. This was moulded into all sorts of small objects, notably the human shawabti effigies deposited in tombs to act as servitors in the afterlife.

The origins of copper tools can be found, Stocks suggests, in earlier flint implements such as the endscraper, sickle, and wavy-edged knife. These “were copied in copper to make the chisel, the adze, and the serrated woodcutting saw”, he says. Stocks made replicas in copper and bronze, and subjected them to hardness tests that showed that even the hardest bronze could effectively cut only soft limestone, gypsum, steatite and red sandstone, together with wood: harder rocks required flint. He also investigated ancient methods of casting copper and bronze into single-use sand moulds and reusable pottery moulds.

The resulting tools were then used in cutting and drilling experiments.

The Ancient Egyptians used clusters of furnaces to make large tubular drills and stonecutting saws, and multiple drills to make many beads at once, both early forms of mass production.

The Gizeh Pyramids are dated around 4. dynasty (2639–2504 BC) and 5. dynasty (2504–2347 BC). Whilst the Inca are known for using bronze the Puma Puncu site is 5500-11500 years OLDER, 1500-7500 years older than the Gizeh Pyramids.

I like again to bring your attention to the design of the blocks. Like Inca walls those are designed to fit perfectly together. Only Inca architecture 5000-10000 years later use individually shaped blocks and these look like from a factory. And it are standardized parts like from a construction-set.

It seems to have inspired the classical Inca stonecrafting, but they never achived a comperable level of perfection. Even if their stonecrafting skills are impressive it can not be compared to the construction-set structures of Puma Puncu. Their style is asymetrical whilst the Puma Puncu site uses symetrical, identical building elements.

Technology usually evolves, you use crude tools to produce better tools and so on. The process is reversed here.

The craftsmanship of the Inca made it possible for them to achive a high level architecture. They build many cities and fortificatios. The architecture of Puma Punku is unique to this one site only.

It seems some undiscovered, ancient, advanced stoneage civilization built the structure.

This could be a trace of the legendary Atlantis, it is the only recorded human civilization that could possibly fit the picture. Of course the existance of Atlantis is equally questionable. Plato gives some detailed descriptions about Atlantis in Timaios and Kritias.

But the general census is its just to showcase his society model and fictional. Most interestingly he labeles made up examples as such, wich is not the case in his description of Atlantis, wich is still subject of many arguments.

I think Plato was using the Atlanteans as a showcase but the Atlantean legend was not made up, instead he learned legends of this civilization, and was using the material to support his own ideas, wich is pretty much what a passage tells us in a dialogue (Apendix B). He was using a myth, not sure himself if the tale was fact or fiction. Nevertheless it was recorded and used in his work. Fortunately for us, its the only record wich we are aware of.

After Plato the timeframe for the atlantean civilization is about nine millenia ago, wich would fit in our timeframe. "In west direction of the pillars of Heracles", wich is the Strait of Gibraltar. However, Puma Puncu is not located near the coast. Still geology pointes out it was once a coastline. (see Apendix A)

The Atlanteans are attributed to using metals, especially "Oreichalkos", it might have been bronze, a not widely known material at the time of Plato (and even less 15000 BC). It fits very well the comparision to Agyptean masonery and the tools being used to construct the Gizeh Pyramids, only in this case being used by a pre-iceage civilization.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreichalkos)

We have no idea who built it. It seems much too early an construction for humanity at its time. And its the only one of its kind. There are no ruins or architectual styles like it.

The Incas are close btu not quite the same and much more primitive. 5-10 millenia later. Of course calling Inca architecture "primitive" is quite a leap because after all they are well known for being master architects only being overshadowed by 4th and 5th dynasty Agyptians.

Its entirely an entirely unique, alien building style.
Not even WE build like that. Sure we have prefab houses today using lightweight materials.

But we do not use a set of perfectly fitting parts being usable for a multitude of possible constuctions. We build prefab parts wich can be only assembled in ONE way. Those are different. Nobody ever build that way. Except here on that one site.


Apendix A)

POSNANSKY'S DATING TECHNIQUE

Prof. Posnansky summed up his 50 year study in a 4 volume work entitled Tiahuanaco, The cradle of American Man first published in 1945. He explains his theories, which are rooted in archeoastronomy, as follows. Since Earth is tilted on its axis in respect to the plane of the solar system, the resulting angle is known as the "obliqueness of the ecliptic" (one should not confuse this with another astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession", as critics of Posnansky have done). If viewed from the earth, the planets of our solar system travel across the sky in a line called the plane of the ecliptic. At present our earth is tilted to cause this angle to be around 23 degrees and 27 minutes, but this is not constant. The earth's axis oscillates slowly between 22 degrees and 1 minute to an extreme of 24 degrees and 5 minutes.

This cycle (repeating itself from one extreme to the other and back) takes roughly 41,000 years to complete. The alignments at the Kalasasaya temple depicts a tilt of the earth's axis amounting to 23 degrees, 8 minutes, 48 seconds, indicating a date of 15,000 B.C.

Between 1927 and 1930 Prof. Posnansky's conclusions were studied intensively by a number of authorities. Dr. Hans Ludendorff (Director of the Astronomical Observatory of Potsdam), Friedrich Becker of the Specula Vaticana, Prof. Arnold Kohlschutter (astronomer at Bonn University), and Rolf Muller (astronomer of the Institute of Astrophysics at Potsdam) verified the accuracy of Posnansky's calculations and vouched for the reliability of his conclusions.

The conventional practice of dating Tiahuanaco as beginning 200 A.D. and collapsing c. 1000 A.D. started with Wendell Bennett's excavations, which turned up numerous examples of pottery, small statues and other artifacts. Since it is common for later arrivals to be awed by massive ruins (sometimes attributing their origin to supernatural beings, thus replicating the "sacred" images on their own pottery and textiles), I think it is a mistake to fuse the two cultures into one, implying that the later arrivals were the same people who built the massive ruins.

There is one solution that can satisfy all of the above mysteries regarding the ruins of Tiahuanaco. This is none other than the geological cataclysm which affected the entire globe geologically and climatically, causing the Pleistocene extinction. Thus, if Tiahuanaco was built before the end of the last Ice Age, then the depiction of the numerous Pleistocene animals (extinct for 12,000 years) are readily explainable. The other indications of the apparent age of the city (tilted seashore lines, lime deposits and silt) would then harmonize with the astronomical alignments built into the buildings. It seems to me, that Prof. Posnansky's original conclusions were correct. Thus I think it likely that at least some parts of Tiahuanaco were built at sea level around 15,000 BC.

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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Apendix B)


    extracts from Plato's Critias Dialogue


    "I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of

    telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was

    that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to

    custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited

    by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of

    fashion.

    One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his

    judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as

    I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling:

    Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life,

    and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled,

    by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he

    came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or

    Hesiod, or any poet.

    And what was the tale about, Critias? said Amynander. About the greatest action which the

    Athenians ever did, and which ought to have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of

    time and the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us. Tell us, said the other,

    the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard this veritable tradition. He replied:

    In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain

    district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also

    called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their

    foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same

    whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that they are

    in some way related to them.

    To this city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who

    were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he

    nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion,

    wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things

    in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and

    after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of

    their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events

    of which he was speaking happened.

    Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes

    are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked

    him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old

    opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age.

    And I will tell you why.

    There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes;

    the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones

    by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon

    a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because

    he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the

    earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt.

    Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in

    the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which

    recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and

    lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the

    seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and

    preserves us.

    When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in

    your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you,

    live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor

    at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a

    tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most

    ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not

    prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever

    happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-

    if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been

    written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples.

    Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the

    other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a

    pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and

    education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what

    happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of

    yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of

    children.

    In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in

    the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and

    noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a

    small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many

    generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a

    time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in

    war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest

    deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the

    face of heaven.

    Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and

    in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the

    priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the

    goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your

    city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your

    race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred

    registers to be eight thousand years old.

    As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws

    and of their most famous action; the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go

    through at our leisure in the sacred registers themselves. If you compare these very laws

    with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the

    olden time.

    In the first place, there is the caste of priests, which is separated from all the others;

    next, there are the artificers, who ply their several crafts by themselves and do not

    intermix; and also there is the class of shepherds and of hunters, as well as that of

    husbandmen; and you will observe, too, that the warriors in Egypt are distinct from all the

    other classes, and are commanded by the law to devote themselves solely to military pursuits;

    moreover, the weapons which they carry are shields and spears, a style of equipment which the

    goddess taught of Asiatics first to us, as in your part of the world first to you.

    Then as to wisdom, do you observe how our law from the very first made a study of the whole

    order of things, extending even to prophecy and medicine which gives health, out of these

    divine elements deriving what was needful for human life, and adding every sort of knowledge

    which was akin to them.

    All this order and arrangement the goddess first imparted to you when establishing your city;

    and she chose the spot of earth in which you were born, because she saw that the happy

    temperament of the seasons in that land would produce the wisest of men. Wherefore the

    goddess, who was a lover both of war and of wisdom, selected and first of all settled that

    spot which was the most likely to produce men likest herself. And there you dwelt, having

    such laws as these and still better ones, and excelled all mankind in all virtue, as became

    the children and disciples of the gods.

    Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them

    exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power

    which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your

    city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the

    Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by

    you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together,

    and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite

    continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of

    Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the

    surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

    Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the

    whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men

    of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt,

    and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue

    at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then,

    Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all

    mankind.

    She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And

    when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the

    very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from

    slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who

    dwell within the pillars.

    But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night

    of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis

    in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts

    is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was

    caused by the subsidence of the island.

    I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us.

    And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just

    been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some

    mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon;

    but I did not like to speak at the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten

    too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then

    I would speak.

    And so I readily assented to your request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the

    chief difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with such a tale we

    should be fairly well provided. And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home

    yesterday I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it; and after I

    left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly the whole it. Truly, as is often

    said, the lessons of our childhood make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not

    sure that I could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much surprised if

    I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long ago. I listened at the time with

    childlike interest to the old man's narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him

    again and again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were branded into

    my mind.

    As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as

    well as myself, might have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I

    am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the

    particulars, as they were told to me.

    The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer

    to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the

    citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will

    perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your

    republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour

    according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us.

    Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or whether we should

    seek for some other instead."

    ACSIS on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    No Nigerian prince I will NOT send you a check for $5000

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I have seen some long, impenetrable OP's in my life.

    This one wins. Dumb it down for me; I can't make heads or tails of it.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I wouldn't really call time dilation a modern physics issue.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I want to point out DA VIDEO LINK in the post. Even if its mere a facet it might give you a glimpse if this stuff is worth reading or not.

    *g*

    ACSIS on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Can we get a too long, inane, and wordy; didn't read?

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
  • Options
    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Gosling wrote: »
    I have seen some long, impenetrable OP's in my life.

    This one wins. Dumb it down for me; I can't make heads or tails of it.

    We can travel the stars using water bears and Hindu folk tales.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    I want to point out DA VIDEO LINK in the post. Even if its mere a facet it might give you a glimpse if this stuff is worth reading or not.

    *g*
    You have two picture links and a Wikipedia article.

    A GERMAN Wikipedia article.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    tldr; Gremlins.

    Obs on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I wouldn't really call time dilation a modern physics issue.

    Well, agreed but Bronze Age is a bit early.

    ACSIS on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Early for what?

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Early for what?

    I think he may be copying responses from whatever forum he copied the OP from.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Wait, wait, I found his video link.

    It's about maybe-habitable planets orbiting gas giants.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Options
    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Gosling wrote: »
    ACSIS wrote: »
    I want to point out DA VIDEO LINK in the post. Even if its mere a facet it might give you a glimpse if this stuff is worth reading or not.

    *g*
    You have two picture links and a Wikipedia article.

    A GERMAN Wikipedia article.

    My bad, here is the same in english: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreichalkos

    ACSIS on
  • Options
    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Early for what?

    theorized time dilation of course

    ACSIS on
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    Armored GorillaArmored Gorilla Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Early for what?

    theorized time dilation of course

    I'm giving him a point on this one.

    The Bronze Age is noted for Bronze, not theorized time dilation. You were WAY off.

    Armored Gorilla on
    "I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."
  • Options
    SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Chariots of the Gods?

    Speaker on
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Okay, so let me try this again and attempt to decipher this trainwreck of an OP.

    *There may be life on other planets.
    *This is due to those planets being able to continually transfer energy via their cores.
    *At some point this does not happen, at which point the planet dies.
    *This will happen to Earth at some point.
    *Therefore, we must all run like hell.
    *Alien civilizations, having come to this conclusion themselves, might have shown up here looking for a rental home.
    *The proof is in the music-- I mean, building materials.
    *TOPIC: What building materials throughout history might have been made by aliens?

    How close am I?

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Options
    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    It would have been better as a Bel-Air.

    Picardathon on
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    DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Can someone just tell me what this OP is about?

    DasUberEdward on
    steam_sig.png
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    Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    This is another Morlock alt, isn't it?

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • Options
    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Pretty close actually. Except for the building materials. It can be pinpointed in religious texts as well as in this particular set of ruins. There are many other examples but i wanted to keep it... short.

    And of course you missed the really cool part about frozen frogs ^^

    ACSIS on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited March 2009
    It's all about the 4-day time cube!

    Echo on
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Pretty close actually. Except for the building materials. It can be pinpointed in religious texts as well as in this particular set of ruins. There are many other examples but i wanted to keep it... short.
    You and I have vastly different definitions of the word "short".

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Options
    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well, yes, actually i think about fleshing out the idea a little and writing a book about it.

    ACSIS on
  • Options
    Armored GorillaArmored Gorilla Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Oh man, Gos is writing a book too. You guys should talk.

    Armored Gorilla on
    "I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."
  • Options
    strakha_7strakha_7 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Gosling wrote: »
    Okay, so let me try this again and attempt to decipher this trainwreck of an OP.

    *There may be life on other planets.
    *This is due to those planets being able to continually transfer energy via their cores.
    *At some point this does not happen, at which point the planet dies.
    *This will happen to Earth at some point.
    *Therefore, we must all run like hell.
    *Alien civilizations, having come to this conclusion themselves, might have shown up here looking for a rental home.
    *The proof is in the music-- I mean, building materials.
    *TOPIC: What building materials throughout history might have been made by aliens?

    How close am I?

    Not very close, if my reading is accurate. Basically he is saying there is life on other planets. I'm inclined to agree given the vast scale of the universe... it's really quite beyond our ability to grasp. The question becomes of if we'd recognize the life as a civilization. And ASCIS also points out that we are a bit close minded with our acceptance that the parameters for life must fall within earth-normal parameters. And this too makes a certain amount of sense, but I'm not a biologist or physicist at all. Except for having read Calculating God. Good book.

    His point about planets dying was due to the stars they orbit dying. We are 10000 years in to our civilization and we have finally figures this out.

    With current technology levels his point about space travel is accurate in my mind as well, that it needs to be undertaken as a multi-generational migration rather than a quick trip to the WalMart and back. And I don't believe he suggests the whole species do it either.

    You're right, Gosling, on the alien's coming to this conclusion. ASCIS suggests radio waves would act like a beacon. If this site (first one I found, and Wiki backs it) is correct, then there are signs of human life up to 100 light-years away from the Earth. This doesn't seem very far, but it is 25 times further than the distance to Alpha Centauri (closest star not called the Sun)

    Well maybel Dylan IS a cylon, eh? No seriously, I don't have a clue about building materials.

    But that was interesting to read by Plato, could you reference a bit better the passage and which version you are quoting? I can never read Plato unless directed at a specific section.

    Interesting stuff if you can approach it with an open mind anyways.

    strakha_7 on
    Want a signature? Find a post by ElJeffe and quote a random sentence!
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Zero tolerance policies are almost invariably terrible.

    One might say I have zero tolerance for them.
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Well, yes, actually i think about fleshing out the idea a little and writing a book about it.
    (looks at OP)
    (opens MS Word and looks at own book, 28,112 words strong, and including such passages as " It is not the correct thing to throw dogs off the roof")
    (looks at OP again)
    (blows brains out)
    (shoves brains back in)
    (blows brains back out again)

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    kdrudykdrudy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Echo wrote: »
    It's all about the 4-day time cube!

    This is what I'm assuming is being told to me up there.

    kdrudy on
    tvsfrank.jpg
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Morlock: Get help dude.

    That OP is a bag of crazy and if you think you have actually presented a single coherent thought therein you are in dire need of some anti-psychotics.

    RiemannLives on
    Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Gosling wrote: »
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Well, yes, actually i think about fleshing out the idea a little and writing a book about it.
    (looks at OP)
    (opens MS Word and looks at own book, 28,112 words strong, and including such passages as " It is not the correct thing to throw dogs off the roof")
    (looks at OP again)
    (blows brains out)
    (shoves brains back in)
    (blows brains back out again)
    Look, Gosling, we all know you have a fondness for throwing dogs off your roof, but you have to learn to accept that some people disapprove of that without becoming all dramatic about it.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Richy wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Well, yes, actually i think about fleshing out the idea a little and writing a book about it.
    (looks at OP)
    (opens MS Word and looks at own book, 28,112 words strong, and including such passages as " It is not the correct thing to throw dogs off the roof")
    (looks at OP again)
    (blows brains out)
    (shoves brains back in)
    (blows brains back out again)
    Look, Gosling, we all know you have a fondness for throwing dogs off your roof, but you have to learn to accept that some people disapprove of that without becoming all dramatic about it.
    I will throw you off the roof, you dog.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    Jason ToddJason Todd Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Ok, I was following along and understood up until Plato.

    Am I correct in assuming the Egyptians end up telling the Athenians about some culture we're to believe was actually a bunch of aliens?

    Jason Todd on
    filefile.jpg
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    osietraosietra __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    Good read.

    osietra on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Wait I get it.

    This is the pitch for Stargate the Movie!

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Options
    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    strakha_7 wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    But that was interesting to read by Plato, could you reference a bit better the passage and which version you are quoting? I can never read Plato unless directed at a specific section.

    You are of course correct. I remember i had it in there, maybe i deleted it accidently: Part I - Chapter 2

    ACSIS on
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    This is another Morlock alt, isn't it?

    I was just thinking the same thing, but the account/alt is old enough that if it is Morlock, it's been asleep for quite a while before it was called into active duty.

    As much as I want to read it and join in, that's one hell of an opening volley/OP.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Options
    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Wait I get it.

    This is the pitch for Stargate the Movie!
    ...
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Currently scientists belive there is a high probability for life elsewhere in this solar
    system. The focus of the attention is giving a gun to Richard Dean Anderson so he can kill those sons of bitches.

    You may be on to something here.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Is the eventual death and supernova of our sun really the most pressing issue of the moment?

    SageinaRage on
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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Really, what we need to do is build a sentient computer and ask it how entropy can be reversed...

    Raiden333 on
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This discussion has been closed.