It depends on the strengths of the players involved moreso than their classes.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
No one is saying that it has to be either way, but if you are looking to maximise the efficiency of each class, take ranged down the gauntlet and melee in the arena.
No one is saying that it has to be either way, but if you are looking to maximise the efficiency of each class, take ranged down the gauntlet and melee in the arena.
Edit: Shadow Priest AoE works incredibly well in the arena. Mage and destro burst DPS work very well in the gauntlet. So, I guess I simply do not grant your premise.
What's your point, _J_? The mobs in the gauntlet all did AoE damage, the first mini boss puts up thorns, and the second boss roots and AoEs, all of which make a pretty good case that this is a bad place for melee. This is also ignoring that the arena has a casting speed debuff and mobs that pummel.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
i don't see your point
yes, you can do it either way, but the mechanics of the two separate fights clearly lend themselves to one or the other.
in the original incarnation, the whirlwinds that the melee adds did made them very hurty to melee dps, and the first big giant has a melee reflective shield, and the second giant has a explosion which forces people to spread out, something that is limited in its possibility when you have melee. Melee can do it now, especially since they changed the whirlwind, but everything down there is working against them.
up in the arena, there's a casting speed debuff, as well as loose adds running around, something that squishy ranged DPS generally have trouble with, whereas the overall more resilient melee (except rogues, who bring other benefits to the arena) don't have as much trouble with that.
yes, you can do it either way, but the mechanics of the two separate fights clearly lend themselves to one or the other.
IF Melee can do just as well in the arena and the gauntlet THEN one cannot posit that melee is most adept at one or the other.
IF ranged can do just as well in the arena and the gauntlet THEN one cannot posit that ranged is most adept at one or the other.
That's my point. You're saying "different group compositions can work" and then saying "but X is the best". And if various group compositions WORK then I do not know upon which an assessment of "best" is founded. Various group compositions can kill quickly. Various group compositions can succeed. So...I don't know what your "X is BEST" claim indicates.
If different group compositions can all stay alive, do the same amount of DPS, and kill equally quickly...to what does your "best" refer?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I never said they were equal.
Both do the job, but not equally.
Dhalphir on
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
As he said, its lenient, but the fight still clearly favours ranged in the gauntlet and melee in the arena. Its not set in stone, obviously you can do it either way, but it is blatantly obvious what its tuned for.
How are whirlwind, targeted AOE, and a dwarf that casts a physical immunity shield clearly favoring melee?
Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I want to hear how. Sounds to me like both areas suck for melee and that's about it.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
They are immune to the casting speed debuff, giving them an advantage over ranged.
The whirlwind guy should never get a whirlwind off before he dies.
The physical immunity shield should be spellstolen, or purged. If it isn't, whoever is assigned to the job sucks.
Next questions?
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
The casting speed debuff is only a problem if your ranged are retarded and all standing on top of each other, and is less of a concern than the AOE the hammer does to a group of melee.
Who's spellstealing and purging if the ranged went down the tunnel?
Actually now that I think about it I'm guessing it's a difference between the 25-man and 10-man versions.
The casting speed debuff is only a problem if your ranged are retarded and all standing on top of each other, and is less of a concern than the AOE the hammer does to a group of melee.
Who's spellstealing and purging if the ranged went down the tunnel?
Actually now that I think about it I'm guessing it's a difference between the 25-man and 10-man versions.
you only need 1-2 dps in the gauntlet in 10man anyway.
Dhalphir on
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Ain't nothing hitting our arena people.
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
The casting speed debuff is only a problem if your ranged are retarded and all standing on top of each other, and is less of a concern than the AOE the hammer does to a group of melee.
Who's spellstealing and purging if the ranged went down the tunnel?
Actually now that I think about it I'm guessing it's a difference between the 25-man and 10-man versions.
you only need 1-2 dps in the gauntlet in 10man anyway.
2 DPS has a pretty good chance of being either all your melee or all your ranged.
The WW from the champions does not hit that hard (especially on 10m where you're going to have to take it since there is only one tank), also focused Single target dps is the key to success in the Arena, the AOE requirements are laughable. The evokers are also very easily to deal with as melee, again focus fire is the key to dealing with them. If you have a priest or shaman healer thats falling asleep from boredom out there (very possible given the 10m pacing) they can dispel/purge the shields. Otherwise, burn harder!
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Are you guys being deliberately thick? Arena requires one person who can purge or spellsteal the shield. Beyond that one person, it favours melee in the arena. You need two DPS in the gauntlet. If you have to go one ranged, one melee because of needing a dispeller in the arena, SO BE IT.
We had maybe 10-12 attempts last night, got him down to around 40 %. Here's what's killing us:
- Frozen Blows hurts. Is it worth slapping on a lot of frost resist gear?
- Freeze + Icicle (often combined with Frozen Blows) hurts even more
Have everyone turn on projected textures - dont get hit by the icicles
Dont get hit by the freeze
have your healers heal during frozen blows
using frost resist does help - either use frost resist with 2 healers or dont use frost resist with 3 healers.
Freakinchair on
I'd construct a situation such that everyone died at the exact same moment so that we could attack whatever afterlife there happens to be en masse and so take it over and create a perfect unending afterlife existence. Also, everyone who wanted one would have an afterlife pony.
Hodir can be a kick in the nuts if you have people being stupid and standing in the big circles of doom before the snow drifts show up. Otherwise it's "move around a lot and heal your tank and dps your face off."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Are you guys freeing all of the NPC's? Are you abusing the Stormclouds? The haste buffs? In our 10 mans we have a Tank in a few pieces of FR gear. In our 25 mans we just heal through it all.
TheCrumblyCracker on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
In 10 man we have our warrior tank use FR and heal him through it. Our largest problem was people not staying out of the big circles before the snow drifts. Once that was "learned" we didn't even need to free anyone.
I'd say the mage is priority, shaman next, and the rest if you have the time. The other tank we have drags hodir to each ice and cleaves them and we all use a little AoE to free them. Works well for us if we're feeling lazy.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
After the first time you free them, only free the mage after each flash freeze. It's not worth dpsing the others since the mage will free them after ~10 seconds anyway. Our first 25-man kill came when we freed all the NPCs, but that took us 2 nights of attempts and we were really close on the kill. Next week we switched to only free the mage and 2-shot the hardmode with a less optimal group and 10 secs to spare. Then we oneshot it this week.
There is a 25 man pug on my server that killed Yogg.
What % of the members were from respectable raiding guilds?
Heh, I remember when one asshat on my realm (hell, he used to be in my guild :? ) proclaimed on the forums that a "PuG" had progressed into T6 content. Of course, just about every single member of said raid was either a T6 level raider, though some were on alts as I recall.
He got laughed off the forums pretty quickly.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
There is a 25 man pug on my server that killed Yogg.
What % of the members were from respectable raiding guilds?
Heh, I remember when one asshat on my realm (hell, he used to be in my guild :? ) proclaimed on the forums that a "PuG" had progressed into T6 content. Of course, just about every single member of said raid was either a T6 level raider, though some were on alts as I recall.
He got laughed off the forums pretty quickly.
And yeah, we have a "guild sponsored PuG" on our server that kills Yogg. 19 raider alts that are decked out in T7.5 + 6 raider alts from another guild, also decked out in T7.5 are not a PuG. Oh, there are also signups for the run.
And yeah, we have a "guild sponsored PuG" on our server that kills Yogg. 19 raider alts that are decked out in T7.5 + 6 raider alts from another guild, also decked out in T7.5 are not a PuG. Oh, there are also signups for the run.
Are you guys being deliberately thick? Arena requires one person who can purge or spellsteal the shield. Beyond that one person, it favours melee in the arena. You need two DPS in the gauntlet. If you have to go one ranged, one melee because of needing a dispeller in the arena, SO BE IT.
Fucking hell.
On that note, ranged DPS are not the only classes with a dispel. Usually on our 25-mans the rune shields are dispelled by the enhancement shaman who is DPSing them, or alternately, by me who is up there healing the melee. Generally all our ranged are in the tunnel, except perhaps for a shadow priest who is MCing for celerity on the melee. On 10-man the dispels are largely irrelevant because they die before they can shield (if they do even shield on 10-man, I don't remember).
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
Are you guys being deliberately thick? Arena requires one person who can purge or spellsteal the shield. Beyond that one person, it favours melee in the arena. You need two DPS in the gauntlet. If you have to go one ranged, one melee because of needing a dispeller in the arena, SO BE IT.
Fucking hell.
On that note, ranged DPS are not the only classes with a dispel. Usually on our 25-mans the rune shields are dispelled by the enhancement shaman who is DPSing them, or alternately, by me who is up there healing the melee. Generally all our ranged are in the tunnel, except perhaps for a shadow priest who is MCing for celerity on the melee. On 10-man the dispels are largely irrelevant because they die before they can shield (if they do even shield on 10-man, I don't remember).
Yes they do, and the shield is fantastic to spellsteal. I can get 45 seconds into the Thorim fight without having to move out of anything.
Anyone have a recommendation of which watcher to leave up for 10 man One Light in the Darkness? It seems like the choice would be between Freya for sanity wells and Thorim for killing the adds in P3, of the two the second seems like it would be better so you don't have to deal with Empowering Shadows healing the adds and Yogg, but some people in my guild are arguing that they need sanity wells for some dumb reason.
There is a 25 man pug on my server that killed Yogg.
What % of the members were from respectable raiding guilds?
Heh, I remember when one asshat on my realm (hell, he used to be in my guild :? ) proclaimed on the forums that a "PuG" had progressed into T6 content. Of course, just about every single member of said raid was either a T6 level raider, though some were on alts as I recall.
He got laughed off the forums pretty quickly.
And yeah, we have a "guild sponsored PuG" on our server that kills Yogg. 19 raider alts that are decked out in T7.5 + 6 raider alts from another guild, also decked out in T7.5 are not a PuG. Oh, there are also signups for the run.
Yeah, these echo my sentiments when someone says PUGs are doing [insert X non-PUG level task]. A whole raid of people who have farmed the content before doing it in a non-guild raid is not a realistic PUG.
A PUG is what wipes to Emalon because the tanks somehow die and people do 1500 to 2500 DPS.
Anyone have a recommendation of which watcher to leave up for 10 man One Light in the Darkness? It seems like the choice would be between Freya for sanity wells and Thorim for killing the adds in P3, of the two the second seems like it would be better so you don't have to deal with Empowering Shadows healing the adds and Yogg, but some people in my guild are arguing that they need sanity wells for some dumb reason.
1Light with Freya is a LOT harder than 1Light with Thorim. Like a lot. Tell your guildmates that if they need sanity wells, they need to L2P, quite frankly.
Posts
Umm....
Edit: Shadow Priest AoE works incredibly well in the arena. Mage and destro burst DPS work very well in the gauntlet. So, I guess I simply do not grant your premise.
yes, you can do it either way, but the mechanics of the two separate fights clearly lend themselves to one or the other.
in the original incarnation, the whirlwinds that the melee adds did made them very hurty to melee dps, and the first big giant has a melee reflective shield, and the second giant has a explosion which forces people to spread out, something that is limited in its possibility when you have melee. Melee can do it now, especially since they changed the whirlwind, but everything down there is working against them.
up in the arena, there's a casting speed debuff, as well as loose adds running around, something that squishy ranged DPS generally have trouble with, whereas the overall more resilient melee (except rogues, who bring other benefits to the arena) don't have as much trouble with that.
IF Melee can do just as well in the arena and the gauntlet THEN one cannot posit that melee is most adept at one or the other.
IF ranged can do just as well in the arena and the gauntlet THEN one cannot posit that ranged is most adept at one or the other.
That's my point. You're saying "different group compositions can work" and then saying "but X is the best". And if various group compositions WORK then I do not know upon which an assessment of "best" is founded. Various group compositions can kill quickly. Various group compositions can succeed. So...I don't know what your "X is BEST" claim indicates.
If different group compositions can all stay alive, do the same amount of DPS, and kill equally quickly...to what does your "best" refer?
Both do the job, but not equally.
How are whirlwind, targeted AOE, and a dwarf that casts a physical immunity shield clearly favoring melee?
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
The whirlwind guy should never get a whirlwind off before he dies.
The physical immunity shield should be spellstolen, or purged. If it isn't, whoever is assigned to the job sucks.
Next questions?
Who's spellstealing and purging if the ranged went down the tunnel?
Actually now that I think about it I'm guessing it's a difference between the 25-man and 10-man versions.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
you only need 1-2 dps in the gauntlet in 10man anyway.
2 DPS has a pretty good chance of being either all your melee or all your ranged.
The WW from the champions does not hit that hard (especially on 10m where you're going to have to take it since there is only one tank), also focused Single target dps is the key to success in the Arena, the AOE requirements are laughable. The evokers are also very easily to deal with as melee, again focus fire is the key to dealing with them. If you have a priest or shaman healer thats falling asleep from boredom out there (very possible given the 10m pacing) they can dispel/purge the shields. Otherwise, burn harder!
3 Healers
5 DPS, most likely split 3/2 rather than 4/1.
So...
Fucking hell.
I may be wrong on that though, apologies.
The rest of my statement still stands.
Dhalphir sure gets worked up over silly things, though.
We had maybe 10-12 attempts last night, got him down to around 40 %. Here's what's killing us:
- Frozen Blows hurts. Is it worth slapping on a lot of frost resist gear?
- Freeze + Icicle (often combined with Frozen Blows) hurts even more
Have everyone turn on projected textures - dont get hit by the icicles
Dont get hit by the freeze
have your healers heal during frozen blows
using frost resist does help - either use frost resist with 2 healers or dont use frost resist with 3 healers.
Make sure projected textures are on, make sure your people are cleansing the freeze ASAP.
FrR Gear can be good if your healers are struggling, either have your MT slap it on or have an OT that taunts for Frozen Blows wearing FrR gear.
I'd say the mage is priority, shaman next, and the rest if you have the time. The other tank we have drags hodir to each ice and cleaves them and we all use a little AoE to free them. Works well for us if we're feeling lazy.
Heh, I remember when one asshat on my realm (hell, he used to be in my guild :? ) proclaimed on the forums that a "PuG" had progressed into T6 content. Of course, just about every single member of said raid was either a T6 level raider, though some were on alts as I recall.
He got laughed off the forums pretty quickly.
And the yummy crit
The buffs are MINE I tells you! MINE!
And yeah, we have a "guild sponsored PuG" on our server that kills Yogg. 19 raider alts that are decked out in T7.5 + 6 raider alts from another guild, also decked out in T7.5 are not a PuG. Oh, there are also signups for the run.
Voltron Alt Raid
On that note, ranged DPS are not the only classes with a dispel. Usually on our 25-mans the rune shields are dispelled by the enhancement shaman who is DPSing them, or alternately, by me who is up there healing the melee. Generally all our ranged are in the tunnel, except perhaps for a shadow priest who is MCing for celerity on the melee. On 10-man the dispels are largely irrelevant because they die before they can shield (if they do even shield on 10-man, I don't remember).
Yes they do, and the shield is fantastic to spellsteal. I can get 45 seconds into the Thorim fight without having to move out of anything.
if you have people going insane they are bad and did things wrong
A PUG is what wipes to Emalon because the tanks somehow die and people do 1500 to 2500 DPS.
1Light with Freya is a LOT harder than 1Light with Thorim. Like a lot. Tell your guildmates that if they need sanity wells, they need to L2P, quite frankly.