i guess i just dont understand if there isnt an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Because the human race will exist for less than an eye blink in the life of the universe. And even if we can find another planet(s) and colonize, what's the point? There is nothing to reach for really. why would we decide to continue the race and continue life if there is absolutely nothing after we die? Even if you are Alexander the Great, one day, almost everyone EVER will forget about you. You legacy will die even. So what's the point?
Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
i guess i just dont understand if there isnt an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Because the human race will exist for less than an eye blink in the life of the universe. And even if we can find another planet(s) and colonize, what's the point? There is nothing to reach for really. why would we decide to continue the race and continue life if there is absolutely nothing after we die? Even if you are Alexander the Great, one day, almost everyone EVER will forget about you. You legacy will die even. So what's the point?
Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
See this, right here? Just means you're an idiot. My accepting that there isn't an afterlife has not turned me into an "abloo abloo nothing means anything anymore," in fact it has made me appreciate life and the actions i take more than ever.
i guess i just dont understand if there isnt an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Because the human race will exist for less than an eye blink in the life of the universe. And even if we can find another planet(s) and colonize, what's the point? There is nothing to reach for really. why would we decide to continue the race and continue life if there is absolutely nothing after we die? Even if you are Alexander the Great, one day, almost everyone EVER will forget about you. You legacy will die even. So what's the point?
Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
See this, right here? Just means you're an idiot. My accepting that there isn't an afterlife has not turned me into an "abloo abloo nothing means anything anymore," in fact it has made me appreciate life and the actions i take more than ever.
Yeah. I didn't know I was a nihilist until I looked it up on wikipedia and found I agreed with pretty well the entire thing. Knowing that when I'm dead, I'm gone, just means that I will do by best to enjoy the life I have, because its the only one I've got.
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NoneoftheaboveJust a conforming non-conformist.Twilight ZoneRegistered Userregular
I guess I just don't understand if there isn't an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
Others have said it better, and I agree with this mindset - The fact that you are alive today, and able to appreciate and discover all the wonders life has to offer is the ultimate joy life can bring. Whether it is the people you meet, the places you go or things you do, life is full of experiences to be had and enjoyed despite the terrible things that can happen. Whether there is an afterlife or not and I am judged or no; I still want to treat others the way I would wish to be treated and live my life the best I can, leaving those behind to say of me when I die, "What a shame!" rather than, "What a blessing!"
i guess i just dont understand if there isnt an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Because the human race will exist for less than an eye blink in the life of the universe. And even if we can find another planet(s) and colonize, what's the point? There is nothing to reach for really. why would we decide to continue the race and continue life if there is absolutely nothing after we die? Even if you are Alexander the Great, one day, almost everyone EVER will forget about you. You legacy will die even. So what's the point?
Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
It annoys me to no end when people try to argue for existence of god or an afterlife because they hate to think that there's no clear cut reason for our existence. I also think it's ridiculous to compare yourself or even humanity to the freakin UNIVERSE! do you really need to be able to affect the universe in a major way in order to live? I know I don't, I am perfectly happy living my life knowing that when it ends it ends forever but until then I'll live how i see fit and take what joys i can from it.
i mean i'm sorry, but you say life isn't worth living if there's no god or afterlife but the fact of the matter is that i'm talking to you through a computer which was created by our species and there's nothing remotely like this in a billion light years! you could claim that that's the hand of god but i say that's humanity taking steps forward on its own as a collective life form, and every person in the world has the potential to add to that. when we start colonizing other solar systems i'll start comparing us to the universe but to me...we, as a collective life form, are still just a seed that's still growing.
p.s. Meiz, I'm sorry about your parents. That must have been really hard
I think Noneoftheabove's take on it (i.e. seeing them in yourself) is really good advice. Sorry dude.
Yeah, that's a whole part of it. It doesn't make up for it but it's sure better then nothing. I wouldn't be the person I am today if it wasn't for them.
Well, my brother died on Sunday, and we buried him today. he was 17. I was actually with my parents getting the house ready for his surprise graduation party when three state troopers came to tell us. After 2 nights of viewings and a funeral for him. all I've heard is, be strong for you parents, be strong for your sister, which I've tried. but, apparently, since I'm the oldest child, I have to be the strong one. Its not easy seeing your father, who in your 24 years of life, never shed a tear, throw himself on the ground and cry and scream uncontrollably. equally fun is seeing your mother curled up in a ball on his bed singing the lullaby she sang to him as a baby. Better yet, is finding out, that the morning you were driving out to help your parents, the detour on the road to their house was because your baby brother wrapped his car around a fucking tree because he was avoiding a deer.
So currently, my thought on death is that it pretty much sucks for the ones still alive. All week I've heard, oh you'll see him again. oh, you'll be together again. and, id like to think that. but in my heart of hearts i know that the last time i saw him was when i leaned down into his casket and whispered that everything was going to be alright, and that i miss him. It also sucks because it changes everything. nothing will ever be the same. Hell, if I didn't have a child myself, more than likely I would have just killed myself anyway.
We saw a movie a month. He wanted to see transformers this month. so if you live in Maryland, and there is a dude with a empty seat next to him crying like a bitch, it will be me.
In short. Death is alright. Dealing with the death of someone you love fucking sucks.
The entire argument of "There has to be a reason!" is pretty redundant. Not everything has an answer. Sometimes stuff just happens.
I'm glad my parents and I are on the same page with that. We all accept it was just an accident.
In some ways, I wish a drunk would have crossed the line and hit him head on or something, just so I could have someone to blame, someone to focus my anger on.
Yes it does (suck, assuming other posts). And damn, man, I am sorry.
I can understand people telling you to be strong, because people always say stupid shit when they see someone else's life torn apart and don't know how to deal with it themselves. We're not good, as a culture (American, I'm assuming), at dealing with emotions. We have the platitudes (be strong, which is a load of shit), and we have row after row of books trying to teach people how to manage their emotions and work through what we've all decided are the appropriate stages of grief.
If I lived within a time zone of Maryland, I'd hit the transformers movie with you -- not so you could see a flick with some guy on the Internet, but so that I could sit near you and kick the shit out of anybody who gives you grief for crying.
This is the time for all those people telling you to be strong for your parents to be strong for your parents. I hope somebody is being strong for you. Take care of yourself. And thank you for sharing that.
I mean, seriously, can you imagine the infrastructure required for reincarnation or the transport of a soul to heaven? It doesn't make any sense.
It's never really bothered me that life just ends. It's actually oddly comforting. I'm trying to justify to myself why I think that, but I can't really. My life is pretty awesome on the balance of things, especially compared to most people around the world, but it seems okay that once I'm done with it I'll get to rest forever.
Spacehog, I'm sure you've heard all the platitudes humanity has in its rather limited Social Lexicon. All of the I'm-sorries and you'll-meet-agains and be-strongs. I also know that often they don't feel like they mean anything, and that they're just words. I don't think I could say anything that would make you feel any better. Honestly, I don't think anybody could. That's not a you thing - that's a grief thing. S'how it works. At least, s'how it works from my own experience.
Personally I believe that what people should be offering those who have just lost a family member is not words, but an ear.
I'm happy to lend you mine, should you ever want to talk.
DVGNo. 1 Honor StudentNether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Anyone remember Defending Your Life? It'd be sweet if it was like that. You get to defend your actions on earth, and if you win you get to go on to the next phase of existence with more of your brain active, and thus better able to comprehend the universe. If you lose, no big, you just get another crack at life on Earth.
In all seriousness, I don't think there is any sort of an afterlife. There's no reason for me to buy that you remain conscious in some way once your brain ceases function. Not to say it's the happiest outcome, but hey, dem's da breaks.
hell, man. dealing with death is a whole 'nother thing entirely.
when someone I love dies my head is just filled with times i'm never going to have with them. i mean i'm never going to have anymore moments with them and that's just so fucking horrible. I lost my cousin two years ago and we grew up together, we had all kinds of crazy fucking memories together but no more now. it took me 15 minutes or so after the phone call to comprehend how much shit really changed and i just broke down. My first nephew died a month ago and because of school and lack of money for travel, i had never met him. i never held my nephew in my arms and it just chipped away at me until i couldn't take it anymore and i ended up having to take a few weeks off of school because i couldn't handle shit without breaking down.
death is a bitch for those of us who are still alive.
They're actually probably not (see: Godel's incompleteness theorem), but I think we get your point.
If you try to relate Godel's incompleteness theorem to this you basically arrive at the halting problem, which sort of supports my point.
Unless you mean that a brain is less powerful than a theoretical Turing machine, which is pretty much certainly the case (you don't have infinite memory, for one thing).
The neat thing about the brain being Turing-equivalent (with limited memory) is that we can simulate it on another Turing machine, which may very well happen within some of our lifetimes. If your software is still running on some other hardware, are you still alive? Why not?
alright alright. i definitely can see your point of view. sorry for coming off so short-sided.
i would be an upbeat athiest as well. this world is beautiful and so are all the experiences we have in it. i guess i just AM one of those people that believes that there really are no coincidences. not pure coincidences. like when you see the silver lining in a bad situation and you grow/learn from it; was that pure coincidence? not really, not to me.
anyway. nothing i've said in this thread has come out very well. i hope i didnt offend anyone if i sounded condescending at all. cause thats not how anything i've said was meant.
its just... there is a purpose for this life. there is an afterlife. and knowing that what i do has long term effects beyond how long my heart pumps just makes life better. i like to believe that God created the world and designed the animals, plants and mountains and the sea and whatever so that I, personally, could enjoy it. That He created all of this so that everyone could enjoy it personally. I like living a life where I believe that God, using physics and chemistry and all the sciences, developed this world and our universe.
Well, my brother died on Sunday, and we buried him today. he was 17. I was actually with my parents getting the house ready for his surprise graduation party when three state troopers came to tell us. After 2 nights of viewings and a funeral for him. all I've heard is, be strong for you parents, be strong for your sister, which I've tried. but, apparently, since I'm the oldest child, I have to be the strong one. Its not easy seeing your father, who in your 24 years of life, never shed a tear, throw himself on the ground and cry and scream uncontrollably. equally fun is seeing your mother curled up in a ball on his bed singing the lullaby she sang to him as a baby. Better yet, is finding out, that the morning you were driving out to help your parents, the detour on the road to their house was because your baby brother wrapped his car around a fucking tree because he was avoiding a deer.
So currently, my thought on death is that it pretty much sucks for the ones still alive. All week I've heard, oh you'll see him again. oh, you'll be together again. and, id like to think that. but in my heart of hearts i know that the last time i saw him was when i leaned down into his casket and whispered that everything was going to be alright, and that i miss him. It also sucks because it changes everything. nothing will ever be the same. Hell, if I didn't have a child myself, more than likely I would have just killed myself anyway.
We saw a movie a month. He wanted to see transformers this month. so if you live in Maryland, and there is a dude with a empty seat next to him crying like a bitch, it will be me.
In short. Death is alright. Dealing with the death of someone you love fucking sucks.
seriously almost made me cry outright man. i got teary eyed.
I can't imagine believing something just because I want it to be true.
But to each his own. If it makes your life better go for it.
Yeah, anyone here ever get the "Why would you think that there's no afterlife? Wouldn't that suck?"
Of course it sucks. It also sucks that I can't move information faster than c, or that I can't create a device that reduces entropy, or that I can't fly by flapping my arms, or that I can't shit rainbows. Should I just believe that I can do all those things and maybe they'll magically come true, like some kind of Disney movie?
I can't imagine believing something just because I want it to be true.
But to each his own. If it makes your life better go for it.
Yeah, anyone here ever get the "Why would you think that there's no afterlife? Wouldn't that suck?"
Of course it sucks. It also sucks that I can't move information faster than c, or that I can't create a device that reduces entropy, or that I can't fly by flapping my arms, or that I can't shit rainbows. Should I just believe that I can do all those things and maybe they'll magically come true, like some kind of Disney movie?
You can't shit rainbows? How do you get out of bed every morning?
The difference between what they're saying and what you're using as examples is that we have solid evidence that we can't move information faster than lightspeed, reduce entropy, or fly by flapping our arms. We have no solid evidence at all about death, since it's generally a one-way trip.
I find the questions you're complaining about annoying (as a concept -- I don't get asked that, personally, since I do believe in an afterlife) because it implies that one is capable of choosing what one believes about matters of faith. There's no reason to the afterlife. Nobody can be logically persuaded one way or the other about what happens after someone's life here on this world permanently ends, because you need evidence to be logically persuaded.
And this is why "How can you believe in an afterlife fantasy?" doesn't work, either. Nonbelievers have no evidence of absence, only absence of evidence. I'm interested in the neurochemical discussion and the theoretical "what would you choose" stuff, but trying to inflict absolute certainty on "What's inside the unopenable black box?" is just a way to look silly on either side. I know what I believe. I have faith in that. What other people believe is up to them. I'm not confusing my faith with scientific knowledge of any sort.
If your brain is turing-complete it can be simulated on any other (sufficiently fast) Turing machine. And seriously, we'll probably be there within a hundred years or so. Does a sufficiently powerful computer have a "soul"?
I can't imagine believing something just because I want it to be true.
But to each his own. If it makes your life better go for it.
Yeah, anyone here ever get the "Why would you think that there's no afterlife? Wouldn't that suck?"
Of course it sucks. It also sucks that I can't move information faster than c, or that I can't create a device that reduces entropy, or that I can't fly by flapping my arms, or that I can't shit rainbows. Should I just believe that I can do all those things and maybe they'll magically come true, like some kind of Disney movie?
You can't shit rainbows? How do you get out of bed every morning?
The difference between what they're saying and what you're using as examples is that we have solid evidence that we can't move information faster than lightspeed, reduce entropy, or fly by flapping our arms. We have no solid evidence at all about death, since it's generally a one-way trip.
I find the questions you're complaining about annoying (as a concept -- I don't get asked that, personally, since I do believe in an afterlife) because it implies that one is capable of choosing what one believes about matters of faith. There's no reason to the afterlife. Nobody can be logically persuaded one way or the other about what happens after someone's life here on this world permanently ends, because you need evidence to be logically persuaded.
And this is why "How can you believe in an afterlife fantasy?" doesn't work, either. Nonbelievers have no evidence of absence, only absence of evidence. I'm interested in the neurochemical discussion and the theoretical "what would you choose" stuff, but trying to inflict absolute certainty on "What's inside the unopenable black box?" is just a way to look silly on either side. I know what I believe. I have faith in that. What other people believe is up to them. I'm not confusing my faith with scientific knowledge of any sort.
I don't know, i think we have some pretty solid evidence on death. i mean we know our bodies break down and all our brain activity ceases, eventually we just get reabsorbed into the enviroment. What doesn't happen afterwards is a transparent intangible spirit escaping but then I don't know that. of course, they could become a fairy when they die and fly off straight into heaven, they could become a sound that echoes throughout the world, they can very well be born again in a different dimension, they could become godzilla and hovers in the sky invisibly and causes typhoons, their spirit could end up getting passed on by touch and posses one of your body parts, there's really no end to the ideas because they all come from the imagination. Yeah, you could say any of those could be real or you could say it couldn't possibly because it is entirely untrue...or because i didn't convince more than two people that any of those are true.
Everyone would love to carry on after the eventual stop at the end, it's our survival instinct that makes us want to carry on. It applies to our loved ones as well, we don't want to think that they just...end. I don't blame people for refusing to accept it but i hate when they try to make the concept so all encompassing, either within the confines of religion or without, that it seems just as logical as the cold hard facts we know. That's the funny thing about the brain though, we can choose how to comprehend the world we live in and still function.
If your brain is turing-complete it can be simulated on any other (sufficiently fast) Turing machine. And seriously, we'll probably be there within a hundred years or so. Does a sufficiently powerful computer have a "soul"?
what do you mean by soul? Why do you care about how fast it is and not how it is programed? Would you ever think of suggesting that someone who thinks slower has less of a soul?
spacehog, that's terrible and I'm sorry there is so little I can do to help. I don't know. Obligations to your family can be hard enough even when you aren't dealing with loosing someone. If you need to be around people who don't make you feel as if you need to 'be strong', there is nothing wrong or selfish about it. You have just as much right to deal with your emotions as anyone else.
I'm not confusing my faith with scientific knowledge of any sort.
This, this right here is what gets me, especially since my dad does the same thing. Why shouldn't I treat God, a soul, an afterlife as a hypothesis? There are plenty of other other nigh-unobservable effects that we have carefully crafted experiments for. And if these things are somehow completely and entirely disparate from the human realm, why is it a virtue to believe in it? In every other area of human experience it's folly to believe in something sans evidence or hard reasoning. The only thing that separates this class of beliefs is that it is somehow intangible, incapable of being measured or observed. But these assertions of intangibility don't come from any scientific limitation, but rather from human desires and inconsistent religious texts.
I don't suppose you plan on responding to the part of the post with actual content?
Why would I? My premise is "faith and scientific logic are two separate things." Your premise is "no, faith should be held to logical standards." Your argument invites me to logically prove that faith shouldn't be be restricted to scientific logic. This would be like me saying that the only way you'll convince me of your viewpoint is if you have enough faith in it.
We have two different viewpoints. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and you're openly contemptuous of mine.
I don't suppose you plan on responding to the part of the post with actual content?
Why would I? My premise is "faith and scientific logic are two separate things." Your premise is "no, faith should be held to logical standards." Your argument invites me to logically prove that faith shouldn't be be restricted to scientific logic. This would be like me saying that the only way you'll convince me of your viewpoint is if you have enough faith in it.
We have two different viewpoints. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and you're openly contemptuous of mine.
So now you've said that give it a go. You're saying that despite the fact someone convinced you of your beliefs it is impossible for you to convince someone of them.
I don't suppose you plan on responding to the part of the post with actual content?
Why would I? My premise is "faith and scientific logic are two separate things." Your premise is "no, faith should be held to logical standards." Your argument invites me to logically prove that faith shouldn't be be restricted to scientific logic. This would be like me saying that the only way you'll convince me of your viewpoint is if you have enough faith in it.
We have two different viewpoints. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and you're openly contemptuous of mine.
So now you've said that give it a go. You're saying that despite the fact someone convinced you of your beliefs it is impossible for you to convince someone of them.
Thats not what he is saying. yes, we are convinced of our faith, but as he said before, its not supported by "science". And it makes plenty of sense to me, logically, once you understand/believe that there is a God. But because you all seem to think that if we can explain what we once believed was the power of God with specialized experience now proves there is no God and that the only way to prove that God exists is through scientific proof, then I agree with takyris.
We will never convince you that way.
By the way, I still believe that things that were once viewed as miracles and the power of God still are. if He created this world and the universe and designed it and put everything that is in it, then our cures and scientific principles are all things He has been using for trillions of years. HE is the one that lets US know the principles. Discovering them doesnt disprove God.
Does your computer fuck around on a higher plane of existence when you unplug it?
Your brain is just a Turing machine made out of meat, why would it be any different?
Well, the electricity sure as hell doesn't go away.
And there's a lot about electrons we still don't know.
And there's a lot we still don't know about the brain and nervous system and dna.
anyways, there's no proof of what you say - i defy you to prove it in fact.
Well, my brother died on Sunday, and we buried him today. he was 17. I was actually with my parents getting the house ready for his surprise graduation party when three state troopers came to tell us. After 2 nights of viewings and a funeral for him. all I've heard is, be strong for you parents, be strong for your sister, which I've tried. but, apparently, since I'm the oldest child, I have to be the strong one. Its not easy seeing your father, who in your 24 years of life, never shed a tear, throw himself on the ground and cry and scream uncontrollably. equally fun is seeing your mother curled up in a ball on his bed singing the lullaby she sang to him as a baby. Better yet, is finding out, that the morning you were driving out to help your parents, the detour on the road to their house was because your baby brother wrapped his car around a fucking tree because he was avoiding a deer.
So currently, my thought on death is that it pretty much sucks for the ones still alive. All week I've heard, oh you'll see him again. oh, you'll be together again. and, id like to think that. but in my heart of hearts i know that the last time i saw him was when i leaned down into his casket and whispered that everything was going to be alright, and that i miss him. It also sucks because it changes everything. nothing will ever be the same. Hell, if I didn't have a child myself, more than likely I would have just killed myself anyway.
We saw a movie a month. He wanted to see transformers this month. so if you live in Maryland, and there is a dude with a empty seat next to him crying like a bitch, it will be me.
In short. Death is alright. Dealing with the death of someone you love fucking sucks.
Man, I'm sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your family.
A friend of mine gave me some good advice about an untimely loss once - be thankful for the time you had with that person, and let your experiences with him live on in your mind, heart, and actions.
Does your computer fuck around on a higher plane of existence when you unplug it?
Your brain is just a Turing machine made out of meat, why would it be any different?
Well, the electricity sure as hell doesn't go away.
And there's a lot about electrons we still don't know.
And there's a lot we still don't know about the brain and nervous system and dna.
anyways, there's no proof of what you say - i defy you to prove it in fact.
You're the one proposing more entities, Occam's razor places the burden of proof on your end. I mean, you're not even making any sense right now. What the hell do electrons have to do with anything? Are you going to go all Leibniz and claim that every subatomic particle has a little micro-soul in it?
Spiritual agnosticism seems to be the fit for you yzzlthtz: Something's probably happening up there, we just don't know what. And that's alright, because you should live the way you want to and see what happens. If you're scurred of the potentially vast consequences (or simply good-natured) you'll do what Westerners deem "the right thing".
We created organized religion. Religion itself, I think, has been around ever since our distant ancestors looked up at the sky and wondered why. No need to categorize what's good or evil, these are extremely silly concepts in the long run and more-than-likely unrelated to whatever God or gods there might be.
Oh, I already have a pretty concrete set of beliefs. I've been working on breaking them down a bit though, more as a personal practice than as a discovery. Starting discussions like this is helpful, in that it invites possibility. We have to "kill the buddha" (im not buddhist, but i like this idea from the buddha)
Also, I like to talk about this stuff since, despite all my discoveries of the soul and higher planes, death still makes me nervous. (trying to kill death i suppose)
I flatlined once for a minute after I was in a car wreck. It felt like going to sleep and then being rudely awakened by some dick paramedic with shock paddles.
Please tell me you attempted to give him hell for interrupting your (eternal) rest.
That's always been my thought on the matter of being "revived".
Does your computer fuck around on a higher plane of existence when you unplug it?
Your brain is just a Turing machine made out of meat, why would it be any different?
Well, the electricity sure as hell doesn't go away.
And there's a lot about electrons we still don't know.
And there's a lot we still don't know about the brain and nervous system and dna.
anyways, there's no proof of what you say - i defy you to prove it in fact.
You're the one proposing more entities, Occam's razor places the burden of proof on your end. I mean, you're not even making any sense right now. What the hell do electrons have to do with anything? Are you going to go all Leibniz and claim that every subatomic particle has a little micro-soul in it?
Occam's Razor does nothing of the sort.
I said nothing about "entities".
The computer was your analogy. I was just pointing out that even a computer needs an outside force to activate, and going further to say that there is a lot more that science doesn't understand about life and the universe than it does understand.
The laws of physics and entropy would seem to dictate that, given infinite time and infinite space, the likelihood of not only our universe, but life itself, existing at this very moment, is very very very very small.
Our brain is at a *minimum* Turing complete. After all, we have created Turing complete languages and can evaluate them by hand.
Is it possible to be more than Turing complete? I don't know enough about Computer Science theory to say.
Sure, just give me a problem (language) that can be solved (recognized) by a human brain but not by a Turing machine.
there isn't one.
Music and its intimate connection to being and emotions.
Emotions themselves.
Creativity.
The implication that we are little more than logic boxes defies my intuitive sense of self, and probably doesn't resonate with a lot of people.
Sure, you could be right, but it certainly doesn't seem that way.
almost anyone who has gone for a long walk in a forest would probably agree with me.
I mean, seriously, can you imagine the infrastructure required for reincarnation or the transport of a soul to heaven? It doesn't make any sense.
It's never really bothered me that life just ends. It's actually oddly comforting. I'm trying to justify to myself why I think that, but I can't really. My life is pretty awesome on the balance of things, especially compared to most people around the world, but it seems okay that once I'm done with it I'll get to rest forever.
I agree that popular cultural notions of heaven are silly. They come from interpretations of texts rather than personal experiences. I tend to think that the further you get from that original experience, the stranger the ideas get.
but what about existence, a universe, at a different state of energy, interpenetrating the physical one, to which we return after death, that is full of vast potential?
I guess I just don't understand if there isn't an afterlife, what is the point of living and achieving anything? Why live a life of kindness? It wont help in the long run. Why live a life of crime, it wont get you anything because you cant keep what you steal. anyway, not sure if i got my point across very well.
Others have said it better, and I agree with this mindset - The fact that you are alive today, and able to appreciate and discover all the wonders life has to offer is the ultimate joy life can bring. Whether it is the people you meet, the places you go or things you do, life is full of experiences to be had and enjoyed despite the terrible things that can happen. Whether there is an afterlife or not and I am judged or no; I still want to treat others the way I would wish to be treated and live my life the best I can, leaving those behind to say of me when I die, "What a shame!" rather than, "What a blessing!"
It's like the golden rule, or the buddhist notion that we should, at every moment, be striving for the liberation of not only ourselves, but every other being.
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See this, right here? Just means you're an idiot. My accepting that there isn't an afterlife has not turned me into an "abloo abloo nothing means anything anymore," in fact it has made me appreciate life and the actions i take more than ever.
Yeah. I didn't know I was a nihilist until I looked it up on wikipedia and found I agreed with pretty well the entire thing. Knowing that when I'm dead, I'm gone, just means that I will do by best to enjoy the life I have, because its the only one I've got.
Others have said it better, and I agree with this mindset - The fact that you are alive today, and able to appreciate and discover all the wonders life has to offer is the ultimate joy life can bring. Whether it is the people you meet, the places you go or things you do, life is full of experiences to be had and enjoyed despite the terrible things that can happen. Whether there is an afterlife or not and I am judged or no; I still want to treat others the way I would wish to be treated and live my life the best I can, leaving those behind to say of me when I die, "What a shame!" rather than, "What a blessing!"
it really is.
It annoys me to no end when people try to argue for existence of god or an afterlife because they hate to think that there's no clear cut reason for our existence. I also think it's ridiculous to compare yourself or even humanity to the freakin UNIVERSE! do you really need to be able to affect the universe in a major way in order to live? I know I don't, I am perfectly happy living my life knowing that when it ends it ends forever but until then I'll live how i see fit and take what joys i can from it.
i mean i'm sorry, but you say life isn't worth living if there's no god or afterlife but the fact of the matter is that i'm talking to you through a computer which was created by our species and there's nothing remotely like this in a billion light years! you could claim that that's the hand of god but i say that's humanity taking steps forward on its own as a collective life form, and every person in the world has the potential to add to that. when we start colonizing other solar systems i'll start comparing us to the universe but to me...we, as a collective life form, are still just a seed that's still growing.
Yeah, that's a whole part of it. It doesn't make up for it but it's sure better then nothing. I wouldn't be the person I am today if it wasn't for them.
So currently, my thought on death is that it pretty much sucks for the ones still alive. All week I've heard, oh you'll see him again. oh, you'll be together again. and, id like to think that. but in my heart of hearts i know that the last time i saw him was when i leaned down into his casket and whispered that everything was going to be alright, and that i miss him. It also sucks because it changes everything. nothing will ever be the same. Hell, if I didn't have a child myself, more than likely I would have just killed myself anyway.
We saw a movie a month. He wanted to see transformers this month. so if you live in Maryland, and there is a dude with a empty seat next to him crying like a bitch, it will be me.
In short. Death is alright. Dealing with the death of someone you love fucking sucks.
I'm glad my parents and I are on the same page with that. We all accept it was just an accident.
In some ways, I wish a drunk would have crossed the line and hit him head on or something, just so I could have someone to blame, someone to focus my anger on.
I can understand people telling you to be strong, because people always say stupid shit when they see someone else's life torn apart and don't know how to deal with it themselves. We're not good, as a culture (American, I'm assuming), at dealing with emotions. We have the platitudes (be strong, which is a load of shit), and we have row after row of books trying to teach people how to manage their emotions and work through what we've all decided are the appropriate stages of grief.
If I lived within a time zone of Maryland, I'd hit the transformers movie with you -- not so you could see a flick with some guy on the Internet, but so that I could sit near you and kick the shit out of anybody who gives you grief for crying.
This is the time for all those people telling you to be strong for your parents to be strong for your parents. I hope somebody is being strong for you. Take care of yourself. And thank you for sharing that.
I mean, seriously, can you imagine the infrastructure required for reincarnation or the transport of a soul to heaven? It doesn't make any sense.
It's never really bothered me that life just ends. It's actually oddly comforting. I'm trying to justify to myself why I think that, but I can't really. My life is pretty awesome on the balance of things, especially compared to most people around the world, but it seems okay that once I'm done with it I'll get to rest forever.
Personally I believe that what people should be offering those who have just lost a family member is not words, but an ear.
I'm happy to lend you mine, should you ever want to talk.
In all seriousness, I don't think there is any sort of an afterlife. There's no reason for me to buy that you remain conscious in some way once your brain ceases function. Not to say it's the happiest outcome, but hey, dem's da breaks.
when someone I love dies my head is just filled with times i'm never going to have with them. i mean i'm never going to have anymore moments with them and that's just so fucking horrible. I lost my cousin two years ago and we grew up together, we had all kinds of crazy fucking memories together but no more now. it took me 15 minutes or so after the phone call to comprehend how much shit really changed and i just broke down. My first nephew died a month ago and because of school and lack of money for travel, i had never met him. i never held my nephew in my arms and it just chipped away at me until i couldn't take it anymore and i ended up having to take a few weeks off of school because i couldn't handle shit without breaking down.
death is a bitch for those of us who are still alive.
If you try to relate Godel's incompleteness theorem to this you basically arrive at the halting problem, which sort of supports my point.
Unless you mean that a brain is less powerful than a theoretical Turing machine, which is pretty much certainly the case (you don't have infinite memory, for one thing).
The neat thing about the brain being Turing-equivalent (with limited memory) is that we can simulate it on another Turing machine, which may very well happen within some of our lifetimes. If your software is still running on some other hardware, are you still alive? Why not?
i would be an upbeat athiest as well. this world is beautiful and so are all the experiences we have in it. i guess i just AM one of those people that believes that there really are no coincidences. not pure coincidences. like when you see the silver lining in a bad situation and you grow/learn from it; was that pure coincidence? not really, not to me.
anyway. nothing i've said in this thread has come out very well. i hope i didnt offend anyone if i sounded condescending at all. cause thats not how anything i've said was meant.
its just... there is a purpose for this life. there is an afterlife. and knowing that what i do has long term effects beyond how long my heart pumps just makes life better. i like to believe that God created the world and designed the animals, plants and mountains and the sea and whatever so that I, personally, could enjoy it. That He created all of this so that everyone could enjoy it personally. I like living a life where I believe that God, using physics and chemistry and all the sciences, developed this world and our universe.
anyway...
seriously almost made me cry outright man. i got teary eyed.
i cant imagine that. sorry mate.
But to each his own. If it makes your life better go for it.
Yeah, anyone here ever get the "Why would you think that there's no afterlife? Wouldn't that suck?"
Of course it sucks. It also sucks that I can't move information faster than c, or that I can't create a device that reduces entropy, or that I can't fly by flapping my arms, or that I can't shit rainbows. Should I just believe that I can do all those things and maybe they'll magically come true, like some kind of Disney movie?
You can't shit rainbows? How do you get out of bed every morning?
The difference between what they're saying and what you're using as examples is that we have solid evidence that we can't move information faster than lightspeed, reduce entropy, or fly by flapping our arms. We have no solid evidence at all about death, since it's generally a one-way trip.
I find the questions you're complaining about annoying (as a concept -- I don't get asked that, personally, since I do believe in an afterlife) because it implies that one is capable of choosing what one believes about matters of faith. There's no reason to the afterlife. Nobody can be logically persuaded one way or the other about what happens after someone's life here on this world permanently ends, because you need evidence to be logically persuaded.
And this is why "How can you believe in an afterlife fantasy?" doesn't work, either. Nonbelievers have no evidence of absence, only absence of evidence. I'm interested in the neurochemical discussion and the theoretical "what would you choose" stuff, but trying to inflict absolute certainty on "What's inside the unopenable black box?" is just a way to look silly on either side. I know what I believe. I have faith in that. What other people believe is up to them. I'm not confusing my faith with scientific knowledge of any sort.
I don't know, i think we have some pretty solid evidence on death. i mean we know our bodies break down and all our brain activity ceases, eventually we just get reabsorbed into the enviroment. What doesn't happen afterwards is a transparent intangible spirit escaping but then I don't know that. of course, they could become a fairy when they die and fly off straight into heaven, they could become a sound that echoes throughout the world, they can very well be born again in a different dimension, they could become godzilla and hovers in the sky invisibly and causes typhoons, their spirit could end up getting passed on by touch and posses one of your body parts, there's really no end to the ideas because they all come from the imagination. Yeah, you could say any of those could be real or you could say it couldn't possibly because it is entirely untrue...or because i didn't convince more than two people that any of those are true.
Everyone would love to carry on after the eventual stop at the end, it's our survival instinct that makes us want to carry on. It applies to our loved ones as well, we don't want to think that they just...end. I don't blame people for refusing to accept it but i hate when they try to make the concept so all encompassing, either within the confines of religion or without, that it seems just as logical as the cold hard facts we know. That's the funny thing about the brain though, we can choose how to comprehend the world we live in and still function.
what do you mean by soul? Why do you care about how fast it is and not how it is programed? Would you ever think of suggesting that someone who thinks slower has less of a soul?
spacehog, that's terrible and I'm sorry there is so little I can do to help. I don't know. Obligations to your family can be hard enough even when you aren't dealing with loosing someone. If you need to be around people who don't make you feel as if you need to 'be strong', there is nothing wrong or selfish about it. You have just as much right to deal with your emotions as anyone else.
In short, fuck faith.
Is it possible to be more than Turing complete? I don't know enough about Computer Science theory to say.
Well, you've convinced me. Congratulations.
Why would I? My premise is "faith and scientific logic are two separate things." Your premise is "no, faith should be held to logical standards." Your argument invites me to logically prove that faith shouldn't be be restricted to scientific logic. This would be like me saying that the only way you'll convince me of your viewpoint is if you have enough faith in it.
We have two different viewpoints. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and you're openly contemptuous of mine.
So now you've said that give it a go. You're saying that despite the fact someone convinced you of your beliefs it is impossible for you to convince someone of them.
Thats not what he is saying. yes, we are convinced of our faith, but as he said before, its not supported by "science". And it makes plenty of sense to me, logically, once you understand/believe that there is a God. But because you all seem to think that if we can explain what we once believed was the power of God with specialized experience now proves there is no God and that the only way to prove that God exists is through scientific proof, then I agree with takyris.
We will never convince you that way.
By the way, I still believe that things that were once viewed as miracles and the power of God still are. if He created this world and the universe and designed it and put everything that is in it, then our cures and scientific principles are all things He has been using for trillions of years. HE is the one that lets US know the principles. Discovering them doesnt disprove God.
Sure, just give me a problem (language) that can be solved (recognized) by a human brain but not by a Turing machine.
Well, the electricity sure as hell doesn't go away.
And there's a lot about electrons we still don't know.
And there's a lot we still don't know about the brain and nervous system and dna.
anyways, there's no proof of what you say - i defy you to prove it in fact.
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Man, I'm sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your family.
A friend of mine gave me some good advice about an untimely loss once - be thankful for the time you had with that person, and let your experiences with him live on in your mind, heart, and actions.
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You're the one proposing more entities, Occam's razor places the burden of proof on your end. I mean, you're not even making any sense right now. What the hell do electrons have to do with anything? Are you going to go all Leibniz and claim that every subatomic particle has a little micro-soul in it?
Oh, I already have a pretty concrete set of beliefs. I've been working on breaking them down a bit though, more as a personal practice than as a discovery. Starting discussions like this is helpful, in that it invites possibility. We have to "kill the buddha" (im not buddhist, but i like this idea from the buddha)
Also, I like to talk about this stuff since, despite all my discoveries of the soul and higher planes, death still makes me nervous. (trying to kill death i suppose)
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That's always been my thought on the matter of being "revived".
Occam's Razor does nothing of the sort.
I said nothing about "entities".
The computer was your analogy. I was just pointing out that even a computer needs an outside force to activate, and going further to say that there is a lot more that science doesn't understand about life and the universe than it does understand.
The laws of physics and entropy would seem to dictate that, given infinite time and infinite space, the likelihood of not only our universe, but life itself, existing at this very moment, is very very very very small.
Still waiting for that proof.
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Music and its intimate connection to being and emotions.
Emotions themselves.
Creativity.
The implication that we are little more than logic boxes defies my intuitive sense of self, and probably doesn't resonate with a lot of people.
Sure, you could be right, but it certainly doesn't seem that way.
almost anyone who has gone for a long walk in a forest would probably agree with me.
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I agree that popular cultural notions of heaven are silly. They come from interpretations of texts rather than personal experiences. I tend to think that the further you get from that original experience, the stranger the ideas get.
but what about existence, a universe, at a different state of energy, interpenetrating the physical one, to which we return after death, that is full of vast potential?
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It's like the golden rule, or the buddhist notion that we should, at every moment, be striving for the liberation of not only ourselves, but every other being.
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